Not earthing a generator

[Sylvia Else]

On 24/02/2011 6:48 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:

On 23-Feb-11 1:08 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated
from the ground, and running appliances off it would be akin to
running them off an isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

some interesting reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

If your generator walks, it may pay to anchor it in some way, if you end
up earthing it.

Perhaps even an earth anchor

Yes, having it walk onto the back of someone's truck is a particular
concern, and one that I've yet to resolve to my complete satisfaction.

Sylvia.

 

[terryc]

Sylvia Else wrote:

Yes, having it walk onto the back of someone's truck is a particular
concern, and one that I've yet to resolve to my complete satisfaction.

Heavy metal strap bent into a U, two holes through it, then drive a
large pin through the holes into the ground. I make pins out of 1" reo
bar and a large washer. a number of those will slow down a stupid thief.

..

 

[Ian Field]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8slno9Fu81U1@mid.individual.net...

On 24/02/2011 6:48 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
On 23-Feb-11 1:08 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated
from the ground, and running appliances off it would be akin to
running them off an isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

some interesting reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

If your generator walks, it may pay to anchor it in some way, if you end
up earthing it.

Perhaps even an earth anchor

Yes, having it walk onto the back of someone's truck is a particular
concern, and one that I've yet to resolve to my complete satisfaction.

Some sort of anchor point for a chain set in concrete.

If your generator has a steel tube frame you can hook a chain through,
various motorcycle locking up chains are available - there is some
correlation between price and whether its any good.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/02/2011 1:22 AM, Ian Field wrote:

"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8slno9Fu81U1@mid.individual.net...
On 24/02/2011 6:48 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
On 23-Feb-11 1:08 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated
from the ground, and running appliances off it would be akin to
running them off an isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

some interesting reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

If your generator walks, it may pay to anchor it in some way, if you end
up earthing it.

Perhaps even an earth anchor

Yes, having it walk onto the back of someone's truck is a particular
concern, and one that I've yet to resolve to my complete satisfaction.


Some sort of anchor point for a chain set in concrete.

If your generator has a steel tube frame you can hook a chain through,
various motorcycle locking up chains are available - there is some
correlation between price and whether its any good.

I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of
the chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator
casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I can attach anthing to
the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing
in such a way that so much damage would be done in removing it that a
thief wouldn't bother.

So assuming that any thief would want an intact generator, it should be
secure against anyone not armed with either heavy-duty bolt cutters, or
power tools.

If anyone happens to see a 2kW generator with a badly damaged plastic
casing on the back of truck, perhaps they could note the registration
number, and let me know, in case it's mine.

Sylvia.

 

[Don McKenzie]

On 25-Feb-11 12:49 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of the chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened
steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I
can attach anthing to the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing in such a way that so much
damage would be done in removing it that a thief wouldn't bother.

In a previous life about 30 years ago:
http://www.dontronics.com/my_early_tote_years.html
I had to leave my car in racecourse public car parks late at night.
A couple of friends of mine had their cars knocked off, and used in robberies.

I decided to source a couple of padlocks, and two metres of heavy chain. I locked one end to the undercarriage of the
passenger side seat, and the other to the steering wheel. It will only slow down a thief of course, but if they are keen
enough to bring a set of bolt cutters, or a hacksaw with them, the car is theirs.

I have insisted that both my daughters and my wife, also use this method of securing their cars during the last 30
years, and we have never had a car go missing.

I figured, I worked hard for these things, and I want to keep them. I have no hangups about throwing a heavy chain into
a brand new car. Nothing gets scratched anyway, as the chain is not locked to the steering wheel, when the car is driven.

I also have a 2 metre x 3 metre courier cage (fits 2 x 25Kg fedex boxes) chained in the same way, to a brick pier on my
front veranda. Really looks the part.

Good luck with it Sylvia.

Cheers Don...

====================


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
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http://www.dontronics-shop.com/ics.html

Bare Proto PCB for PIC or AVR projects?
"I'd buy that for a Dollar!".

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/02/2011 2:43 PM, Don McKenzie wrote:

I also have a 2 metre x 3 metre courier cage (fits 2 x 25Kg fedex boxes)
chained in the same way, to a brick pier on my front veranda. Really
looks the part.

Though one thing I've pondered is the wisdom of making it obvious that
something has been seriously secured - it says "look here for
valuables".

Decoy boxes with exploding dye packs inside?

Sylvia.

 

[Don McKenzie]

On 25-Feb-11 2:52 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 25/02/2011 2:43 PM, Don McKenzie wrote:
I also have a 2 metre x 3 metre courier cage (fits 2 x 25Kg fedex boxes)
chained in the same way, to a brick pier on my front veranda. Really
looks the part.

Though one thing I've pondered is the wisdom of making it obvious that something has been seriously secured - it says
"look here for
valuables".

Decoy boxes with exploding dye packs inside?
Sylvia.

Would you believe a moat full of crocodiles with exploding dye packs inside.

I often thought that a potential car thief may have thrown a brick through my car window just to piss me off, when they
saw the chain on the steering wheel, but I would prefer that to a missing car.

I feel a generator with a good chain on it, tells the true story. If they want it, and think it is valuable enough to
walk off with it, then they have to bring back a set of bolt cutters with them next time.

Cheers Don...

=====================


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
Web Camera Page: http://www.dontronics.com/webcam
No More Damn Spam: http://www.dontronics.com/spam

These products will reduce in price by 5% every month:
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/minus-5-every-month.html
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/ics.html

Bare Proto PCB for PIC or AVR projects?
"I'd buy that for a Dollar!".

 

[Dennis]

In a previous life about 30 years ago:
http://www.dontronics.com/my_early_tote_years.html
I had to leave my car in racecourse public car parks late at night.
A couple of friends of mine had their cars knocked off, and used in
robberies.

I decided to source a couple of padlocks, and two metres of heavy chain. I
locked one end to the undercarriage of the passenger side seat, and the
other to the steering wheel. It will only slow down a thief of course, but
if they are keen enough to bring a set of bolt cutters, or a hacksaw with
them, the car is theirs.

I have insisted that both my daughters and my wife, also use this method
of securing their cars during the last 30 years, and we have never had a
car go missing.

I figured, I worked hard for these things, and I want to keep them. I have
no hangups about throwing a heavy chain into a brand new car. Nothing gets
scratched anyway, as the chain is not locked to the steering wheel, when
the car is driven.

I also have a 2 metre x 3 metre courier cage (fits 2 x 25Kg fedex boxes)
chained in the same way, to a brick pier on my front veranda. Really looks
the part.

Good luck with it Sylvia.

Cheers Don...

Don - so if you're not available to accept a delivery the couriers will
leave packages locked up for you??????

Good idea.

 

[Don McKenzie]

On 25-Feb-11 3:28 PM, Dennis wrote:

Don - so if you're not available to accept a delivery the couriers will
leave packages locked up for you??????

Good idea.

Yep, my biggest problem is, if no one is around, and I have two deliveries in one day, the cage will be locked and the
second delivery can't be locked in the cage without the key.

I have signs everywhere asking the driver to either ring a phone number and get the location of the padlock key, or
leave the goods with a neighbor.

I also leave letters of signed authorization to leave the goods. I have also notified every courier company I deal with,
and asked them to leave the goods and lock the cage, but unless you have regular drivers, this doesn't always work.

Cheers Don...

====================


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
Web Camera Page: http://www.dontronics.com/webcam
No More Damn Spam: http://www.dontronics.com/spam

These products will reduce in price by 5% every month:
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/minus-5-every-month.html
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/ics.html

Bare Proto PCB for PIC or AVR projects?
"I'd buy that for a Dollar!".

 

[Dennis]

"Don McKenzie" <5V@2.5A> wrote in message
news:8soq10Faj3U1@mid.individual.net...

On 25-Feb-11 3:28 PM, Dennis wrote:

Don - so if you're not available to accept a delivery the couriers will
leave packages locked up for you??????

Good idea.

Yep, my biggest problem is, if no one is around, and I have two deliveries
in one day, the cage will be locked and the second delivery can't be
locked in the cage without the key.

I have signs everywhere asking the driver to either ring a phone number
and get the location of the padlock key, or leave the goods with a
neighbor.

I also leave letters of signed authorization to leave the goods. I have
also notified every courier company I deal with, and asked them to leave
the goods and lock the cage, but unless you have regular drivers, this
doesn't always work.

Cheers Don...

I've the same problem - the lock box is a great solution - doh,why didn't I
think of that!

cheers

 

[Metro]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sog5bFluuU1@mid.individual.net...

On 25/02/2011 1:22 AM, Ian Field wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8slno9Fu81U1@mid.individual.net...
On 24/02/2011 6:48 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
On 23-Feb-11 1:08 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated
from the ground, and running appliances off it would be akin to
running them off an isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

some interesting reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

If your generator walks, it may pay to anchor it in some way, if you
end
up earthing it.

Perhaps even an earth anchor

Yes, having it walk onto the back of someone's truck is a particular
concern, and one that I've yet to resolve to my complete satisfaction.


Some sort of anchor point for a chain set in concrete.

If your generator has a steel tube frame you can hook a chain through,
various motorcycle locking up chains are available - there is some
correlation between price and whether its any good.



I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of the
chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator
casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I can attach anthing to
the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing in
such a way that so much damage would be done in removing it that a thief
wouldn't bother.

So assuming that any thief would want an intact generator, it should be
secure against anyone not armed with either heavy-duty bolt cutters, or
power tools.

If anyone happens to see a 2kW generator with a badly damaged plastic
casing on the back of truck, perhaps they could note the registration
number, and let me know, in case it's mine.

Sylvia.

This generator. Are you supplying a power board or what? Please don't tell

me you are integrating with your household electrical supply at the main
board with a c/o switch.

Metro

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/02/2011 3:20 PM, Don McKenzie wrote:

On 25-Feb-11 2:52 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 25/02/2011 2:43 PM, Don McKenzie wrote:
I also have a 2 metre x 3 metre courier cage (fits 2 x 25Kg fedex boxes)
chained in the same way, to a brick pier on my front veranda. Really
looks the part.

Though one thing I've pondered is the wisdom of making it obvious that
something has been seriously secured - it says
"look here for
valuables".

Decoy boxes with exploding dye packs inside?
Sylvia.

Would you believe a moat full of crocodiles with exploding dye packs
inside.

Green, I trust, for an aesthetic balance with the red.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/02/2011 4:47 PM, no one wrote:

use stainless steel chain......

Sheesh - this is already costing enough. I've had to restrain myself,
lest I spend more on securing the generator than it is worth.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/02/2011 3:51 PM, Metro wrote:

This generator. Are you supplying a power board or what? Please don't tell
me you are integrating with your household electrical supply at the main
board with a c/o switch.

No, I'm not. That would only make sense if the grid power were
persistently unreliable, which it isn't. Nor am I using a suicide cable.

The sparky modified the airconditioner wiring, so that the
airconditioner is now plugged into a power outlet. In the event of a
power outage, I can unplug it and plug it into an extension cable from
the generator. Ditto anything else I want to use at the time.

Sylvia.

 

[no one]

use stainless steel chain......




"Don McKenzie" <5V@2.5A> wrote in message
news:8soovkF61eU1@mid.individual.net...

On 25-Feb-11 2:52 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 25/02/2011 2:43 PM, Don McKenzie wrote:
I also have a 2 metre x 3 metre courier cage (fits 2 x 25Kg fedex boxes)
chained in the same way, to a brick pier on my front veranda. Really
looks the part.

Though one thing I've pondered is the wisdom of making it obvious that
something has been seriously secured - it says
"look here for
valuables".

Decoy boxes with exploding dye packs inside?
Sylvia.

Would you believe a moat full of crocodiles with exploding dye packs
inside.

I often thought that a potential car thief may have thrown a brick through
my car window just to piss me off, when they saw the chain on the steering
wheel, but I would prefer that to a missing car.

I feel a generator with a good chain on it, tells the true story. If they
want it, and think it is valuable enough to walk off with it, then they
have to bring back a set of bolt cutters with them next time.

Cheers Don...

=====================


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
Web Camera Page: http://www.dontronics.com/webcam
No More Damn Spam: http://www.dontronics.com/spam

These products will reduce in price by 5% every month:
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/minus-5-every-month.html
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/ics.html

Bare Proto PCB for PIC or AVR projects?
"I'd buy that for a Dollar!".

 

[kreed]

On Feb 25, 11:49 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:

On 25/02/2011 1:22 AM, Ian Field wrote:



"Sylvia Else"<syl...@not.here.invalid>  wrote in message
news:8slno9Fu81U1@mid.individual.net...
On 24/02/2011 6:48 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:
On 23-Feb-11 1:08 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated
from the ground, and running appliances off it would be akin to
running them off an isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

some interesting reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

If your generator walks, it may pay to anchor it in some way, if you end
up earthing it.

Perhaps even an earth anchor

Yes, having it walk onto the back of someone's truck is a particular
concern, and one that I've yet to resolve to my complete satisfaction.

Some sort of anchor point for a chain set in concrete.

If your generator has a steel tube frame you can hook a chain through,
various motorcycle locking up chains are available - there is some
correlation between price and whether its any good.

I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of
the chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator
casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I can attach anthing to
the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing
in such a way that so much damage would be done in removing it that a
thief wouldn't bother.

So assuming that any thief would want an intact generator, it should be
secure against anyone not armed with either heavy-duty bolt cutters, or
power tools.

If anyone happens to see a 2kW generator with a badly damaged plastic
casing on the back of truck, perhaps they could note the registration
number, and let me know, in case it's mine.

Sylvia.

Maybe put it inside an existing shed, with the exhaust pipe taken out
through a wall, or make a small lockable suitably vented enclosure for
it,
like they do with some bore pumps (or dog kennels). This might also
help reduce the motor noise coming into to your house and protect it
from rain if you do it right. You might even find something suitable
at the dump sale that you can use or modify.

One problem with Generators is that they have to be outside, (or if
inside the exhaust has to be piped outside)
and they make noise, so they draw attention to themselves.

When the power is off, there is usually no other noise around, as all
TV, sound equipment and motors stop,
so it is very easy to hear it in the relative silence. In the relative
darkness of a blackout, small ones are probably
easier to grab and run off with, without being seen

 

[who where]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:49:38 +1100, Sylvia Else
<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:

I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of
the chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator
casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I can attach anthing to
the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing
in such a way that so much damage would be done in removing it that a
thief wouldn't bother.

So assuming that any thief would want an intact generator, it should be
secure against anyone not armed with either heavy-duty bolt cutters, or
power tools.

We've had a number of cases of theft on comms sites where it was
evident that the thieves had visited more than once. First time they
were just looking around to see what they could nick. Second time
they brought the tools to remove all sorts of stuff. Used gas-axes to
cut through the legs of aluminium equipment cabinets.

There is a chain material that is reputedly beyond even the 36"
bolt-cutters. Unfortunately its plating - which looks like a
cad/passivation - seems to fall off and allow rusting. But it DOES
take about half an hour and several hacksaw blades to cut through the
10mm links in a vice. I guess a motorised angle-grinder wouldn't take
long though.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/02/2011 10:16 PM, who where wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:49:38 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:

I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of
the chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator
casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I can attach anthing to
the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing
in such a way that so much damage would be done in removing it that a
thief wouldn't bother.

So assuming that any thief would want an intact generator, it should be
secure against anyone not armed with either heavy-duty bolt cutters, or
power tools.

We've had a number of cases of theft on comms sites where it was
evident that the thieves had visited more than once. First time they
were just looking around to see what they could nick. Second time
they brought the tools to remove all sorts of stuff. Used gas-axes to
cut through the legs of aluminium equipment cabinets.

There is a chain material that is reputedly beyond even the 36"
bolt-cutters. Unfortunately its plating - which looks like a
cad/passivation - seems to fall off and allow rusting. But it DOES
take about half an hour and several hacksaw blades to cut through the
10mm links in a vice. I guess a motorised angle-grinder wouldn't take
long though.

Unfortunately, if the crims are that organised, it's going to be
impossible to prevent the theft by any means that's economic. But I hope
that if they're into those sort of techniques, they'll go after
something more valuable than my generator.

As a last resort, I'm insured.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 24/02/2011 8:27 AM, Ian Field wrote:

"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sj8gjFtg3U1@mid.individual.net...
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?


Maybe the real issue is whether or not you want to include safety devices
like earth leakage circuit breakers which need one of the feed lines to be
referenced to earth.

Note that an ELCB doesn't actually measure earth current - it detects a
slight imbalance between the line and return, which indicates that some of
the current going out on the line is going somewhere it shouldn't rather
than back by the return.

Yes, so one thing it can detect is that some current is going to earth
through a human. But if the generator outputs are floating relative to
earth, then even if an appliance becomes faulty, there will be no
conduction to earth through a human, because the earth does not
represent a return path, and the ELCB is redundant.

I suppose faults in multiple pieces of gear could create dangers, but
the risk seems very low in the context of equipment that is normally
connected to the mains, and subject to normal ELCB behaviour, and is
only occasionally connected to an unearthed generator.

Or so it appears to me.

Sylvia.

 

[fritz]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message news:8spkfqFgpuU1@mid.individual.net...

On 25/02/2011 10:16 PM, who where wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:49:38 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:

I've sourced a couple of padlocks, chain, and a way to lock one end of
the chain to a brick wall. All case-hardened steel, or better.

The attachment to the generator is really the weak spot. The generator
casing is plastic, and there's no obvious place I can attach anthing to
the interior. The best I can do is thread the chain through the casing
in such a way that so much damage would be done in removing it that a
thief wouldn't bother.

So assuming that any thief would want an intact generator, it should be
secure against anyone not armed with either heavy-duty bolt cutters, or
power tools.

We've had a number of cases of theft on comms sites where it was
evident that the thieves had visited more than once. First time they
were just looking around to see what they could nick. Second time
they brought the tools to remove all sorts of stuff. Used gas-axes to
cut through the legs of aluminium equipment cabinets.

There is a chain material that is reputedly beyond even the 36"
bolt-cutters. Unfortunately its plating - which looks like a
cad/passivation - seems to fall off and allow rusting. But it DOES
take about half an hour and several hacksaw blades to cut through the
10mm links in a vice. I guess a motorised angle-grinder wouldn't take
long though.

Unfortunately, if the crims are that organised, it's going to be impossible to prevent the theft by any means that's economic. But
I hope that if they're into those sort of techniques, they'll go after something more valuable than my generator.

As a last resort, I'm insured.

Sylvia.

I deleted the start of this thread, would you mind telling me what
model generator you have, the brief specs and the price ?
Thanks !