Not earthing a generator

[Sylvia Else]

Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Sylvia Else"

Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection through
to the appliance.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.


...... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 23/02/2011 3:04 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"Sylvia Else"
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection through
to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves, other than ensure that there's no
static build up on the driven appliance.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.

In this case, the generator has a plastic cover. The only places that
metal is exposed are the exaust, and the earthing point.

I'll find out whether its neutral is attached to its earth point when I
stop it later on. Damned thing needs to be run in for 20 hours at half
load before being used on variable loads, so I've got it warming up the
world through an electric bar heater.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Sylvia Else"

** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through
to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,

** You don't see much at all.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame
of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.

In this case, the generator has a plastic cover.

** Really .................

The only places that metal is exposed are the exaust, and the earthing
point.

** So one can get burnt and electrocuted at the same time.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 23/02/2011 3:32 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"Sylvia Else"


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through
to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,


** You don't see much at all.

Oh Phil, you were doing so well. It was too much to hope that it would last.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame
of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.

In this case, the generator has a plastic cover.


** Really .................

The only places that metal is exposed are the exaust, and the earthing
point.


** So one can get burnt and electrocuted at the same time.

With sufficient determination, perhaps, if a fault of the particular
kind happens to develop in an appliance, the appliance's casing has
sufficient contact with ground and one goes out and touches the
generator's exaust outlet.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"

** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,


** You don't see much at all.

Oh Phil, you were doing so well.

** FFS stop posting ABSURDLY POMPOUS SHIT like

" I don't see .... blag, blah, blah ..... "

And ask a fucking SENSIBLE QUESTION !!



..... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 23/02/2011 3:58 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,


** You don't see much at all.

Oh Phil, you were doing so well.

** FFS stop posting ABSURDLY POMPOUS SHIT like

" I don't see .... blag, blah, blah ..... "

I can say "It doesn't make any difference" if that will encourage you to
find and express an argument showing that I'm wrong.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"

BURN the WITCH !!!

** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current
carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,


** You don't see much at all.

Oh Phil, you were doing so well.

** FFS stop posting ABSURDLY POMPOUS SHIT like

" I don't see .... blag, blah, blah ..... "

And ask a fucking SENSIBLE QUESTION !!


I can say "It doesn't make any difference" if that will encourage you to
find and express an argument showing that I'm wrong.

** That is far too stupid and ambiguous to even consider.

What the fuck does this UTTERLY MAD BITCH think isolation transformers are
for ??


...... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 23/02/2011 4:40 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"

BURN the WITCH !!!


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current
carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,


** You don't see much at all.

Oh Phil, you were doing so well.

** FFS stop posting ABSURDLY POMPOUS SHIT like

" I don't see .... blag, blah, blah ..... "

And ask a fucking SENSIBLE QUESTION !!


I can say "It doesn't make any difference" if that will encourage you to
find and express an argument showing that I'm wrong.


** That is far too stupid and ambiguous to even consider.

What the fuck does this UTTERLY MAD BITCH think isolation transformers are
for ??

Oh, if I were to take a punt - isolation?

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"

BURN the WITCH !!!

What the fuck does this UTTERLY MAD BITCH think isolation transformers
are
for ??

Oh, if I were to take a punt - isolation?

** Why don't you take a flying leap off the harbour bridge ?

You fuckwit, waste of space damn TROLL.

 

[terryc]

Sylvia Else wrote:

What's the objection to running it this way?

If it is bqasically a permanent installation, makes sense to drive an
earth spike or use the existing one.

 

[Dave Goldfinch]

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:04:46 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"Sylvia Else"
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection through
to the appliance.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.


..... Phil

Hi Phil

I certainly see your point if the generator's neutral is tied to the
frame.

Is this common practice? If so, why?

I'm looking for enlightment, not an argument!

Cheers

Dave.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Sylvia Else wrote:

Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an
isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

**Which one did you buy? How much power? Where'd you buy it? I hope you use
an inverter style air-con. Regular air-cons are deadly to generators.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Phil Allison]

"Dave Goldfinch"

** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through
to the appliance.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame
of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.


I certainly see your point if the generator's neutral is tied to the
frame.

Is this common practice? If so, why?

** I believe it is the norm.

It duplicates the usual " earthed neutral " domestic AC supply and ensures
that a short from active to the protective earth of an appliance will trip a
breaker connected in the active.

So - if a gene's frame is NOT grounded to real earth, a single fault (
where active leaks to real ground ) could render that frame live PLUS the
safety ground circuit of all the metalwork of any connected appliances that
use the safety ground conductor.

Absolutely lethal.

I'm looking for enlightment, not an argument!

** Makes a nice change round here.



..... Phil

 

[Dave Goldfinch]

Makes sense!

Thanks On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:15:05 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Dave Goldfinch"

** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through
to the appliance.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame
of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.


I certainly see your point if the generator's neutral is tied to the
frame.

Is this common practice? If so, why?

** I believe it is the norm.

It duplicates the usual " earthed neutral " domestic AC supply and ensures
that a short from active to the protective earth of an appliance will trip a
breaker connected in the active.

So - if a gene's frame is NOT grounded to real earth, a single fault (
where active leaks to real ground ) could render that frame live PLUS the
safety ground circuit of all the metalwork of any connected appliances that
use the safety ground conductor.

Absolutely lethal.


I'm looking for enlightment, not an argument!


** Makes a nice change round here.



.... Phil

Makes sense.

Thanks Phil.

Dave

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 23/02/2011 6:56 PM, Dave Goldfinch wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:04:46 +1100, "Phil Allison"<phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:


"Sylvia Else"
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection through
to the appliance.

Assuming that a portable generator has its neutral tied to the metal fame of
the machine, leakage ( or a short ) from active to the local ground would
make the frame live 240VAC.


..... Phil










Hi Phil

I certainly see your point if the generator's neutral is tied to the
frame.

It's not on my generator.

Which would seem to mean that the output is floating compared with the
earth *pin*. That doesn't actually seem like a very good idea.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 23/02/2011 7:07 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power
during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an
earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an
isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

**Which one did you buy? How much power? Where'd you buy it? I hope you use
an inverter style air-con. Regular air-cons are deadly to generators.

After much soul searching I went for a Kipor GS2600 (rated output
2300W), bought from Sparky Direct. It may not (with emphasis on may)
have the run-time longevity of a Honda or Yamaha, but I don't need that
in this application. I'll probably die of old age before it reaches 50
hours. The twenty hour run-in, while a bit of a pain, gives me a chance
to let it burn-in while it's in warranty. I checked with Kipor in
Australia, and they claim that spare parts are available for it here.

In some quarters they seem to have a reputation for being a bit smokey,
but in fact once mine has warmed up, there's no smoke visible even if I
set out to look for it.

Yes, it's an inverter air-conditioner (Daikin). I called Daikin and they
hadn't a clue about starting current, so I measured it directly. It's
very well behaved.

I did some more searching regarding earthing. This seems to be a
contentious and hotly debated issue.

Sylvia.

 

[Don McKenzie]

On 23-Feb-11 1:08 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated
from the ground, and running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Sylvia.

some interesting reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

If your generator walks, it may pay to anchor it in some way, if you end up earthing it.
Perhaps even an earth anchor


Cheers Don...

======================

--
Don McKenzie

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"I'd buy that for a Dollar!".

 

[Ian Field]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sj8gjFtg3U1@mid.individual.net...

Being no longer trusting that Energy Australia will supply power during
heatwaves, I've acquired a generator.

The manual advises connecting an earth tag on the generator to an earth
spike in the ground.

In the absence of this, since the generator is sitting on rubber-like
feet, it would appear to be pretty well insulated from the ground, and
running appliances off it would be akin to running them off an isolating
transformer.

What's the objection to running it this way?

Maybe the real issue is whether or not you want to include safety devices
like earth leakage circuit breakers which need one of the feed lines to be
referenced to earth.

Note that an ELCB doesn't actually measure earth current - it detects a
slight imbalance between the line and return, which indicates that some of
the current going out on the line is going somewhere it shouldn't rather
than back by the return.

 

[no one]

sylvia, send me a pic of you to my email address ?

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:8sjl66F1vjU2@mid.individual.net...

On 23/02/2011 4:40 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Stupider than Anyone Else Alive"

BURN the WITCH !!!


** An isolating transformer normally only isolates the current
carrying
conductors from ground while continuing the safety earth connection
through to the appliance.

Though I don't see what that achieves,


** You don't see much at all.

Oh Phil, you were doing so well.

** FFS stop posting ABSURDLY POMPOUS SHIT like

" I don't see .... blag, blah, blah ..... "

And ask a fucking SENSIBLE QUESTION !!


I can say "It doesn't make any difference" if that will encourage you to
find and express an argument showing that I'm wrong.


** That is far too stupid and ambiguous to even consider.

What the fuck does this UTTERLY MAD BITCH think isolation transformers
are
for ??

Oh, if I were to take a punt - isolation?

Sylvia.