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From: Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New recipes for origin of life may point to distant, inhabited
planets
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:11:34 +0100
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On 22/09/2023 12:01, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 04:50:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:34:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jl@997arbor.com> wrote in <0okogitsqq469s48m72g8h36unr2hh1p25@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many
chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations
to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
Only by people with a very large Goddidit axe to grind. They ask the
wrong question deliberately and get an impossibly improbable answer.
Life is impossible without divine intervention. They start from that
answer and construct a fallacious argument to match their beliefs.
The evidence so far is that wherever there is liquid water and a
sufficiently long period of geological time there may well be life. Even
the liquid water requirement might possibly be relaxed to allow for life
that has evolved to live (very slowly) in solid ice or rocks.
Don\'t know what inhibits your understanding, religion?
Do you claim to understand how DNA self-assembled on Earth? Nobody
else does.
DNA was the final stage which replicates much more reliably.
RNA world came first and we still have viroids today that are nothing
more than infectious loops of bare RNA targetting mostly plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid
Some of them extremely damaging to commercial crops and plants and all
of them so small even when compared to viruses as to be unfilterable.
Many biologists who look at evolutionary biology consider them to be the
last remnants of the original RNA chemical soup world still hanging on
in a now mostly DNA and cellular one. Diener\'s hypothesis in 1989 being
one of the more compelling arguments for them being such a relic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid#RNA_world_hypothesis
Quite likely before that there were self replicating molecules like
peptides or polysaccharides that did no more than catalyse formation of
copies of their own molecular structure from basic ingredients.
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 7:35:16?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
A planet is not a jar. Clay-like minerals are catalysts and substrates for reactions
too slow to be part of our human chemical technology, but that kind of milieu is
as full of life as Earth\'s oceans of \'colored water\' are, and \'the math\' on this subject does not
tell us that life didn\'t originate on Earth.
Path: not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 14:45:50 +0000
From: John Larkin <jl@997arbor.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New recipes for origin of life may point to distant, inhabited planets
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 07:45:48 -0700
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From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New recipes for origin of life may point to distant, inhabited planets
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:12:54 -0700
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On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:11:34 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 22/09/2023 12:01, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 04:50:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid
wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:34:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
j...@997arbor.com> wrote in <0okogitsqq469s48m...@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many
chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations
to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
Only by people with a very large Goddidit axe to grind. They ask the
wrong question deliberately and get an impossibly improbable answer.
Life is impossible without divine intervention. They start from that
answer and construct a fallacious argument to match their beliefs.
The evidence so far is that wherever there is liquid water and a
sufficiently long period of geological time there may well be life. Even
the liquid water requirement might possibly be relaxed to allow for life
that has evolved to live (very slowly) in solid ice or rocks.
Don\'t know what inhibits your understanding, religion?
Do you claim to understand how DNA self-assembled on Earth? Nobody
else does.
DNA was the final stage which replicates much more reliably.
RNA world came first and we still have viroids today that are nothing
more than infectious loops of bare RNA targetting mostly plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid
Some of them extremely damaging to commercial crops and plants and all
of them so small even when compared to viruses as to be unfilterable.
Many biologists who look at evolutionary biology consider them to be the
last remnants of the original RNA chemical soup world still hanging on
in a now mostly DNA and cellular one. Diener\'s hypothesis in 1989 being
one of the more compelling arguments for them being such a relic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid#RNA_world_hypothesis
Quite likely before that there were self replicating molecules like peptides or polysaccharides that did no more than catalyse formation copies of their own molecular structure from basic ingredients.
Scrapie in sheep and BSE in cattle are examples of spontaneously arisingelf catalysing molecules that can flip an existing compound into
another non-functional and even seriously damaging conformal shape.
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:48:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 7:35:16?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
A planet is not a jar. Clay-like minerals are catalysts and substrates for reactions too slow to be part of our human chemical technology, but that kind of milieu is as full of life as Earth\'s oceans of \'colored water\' are, and \'the math\' on this subject does not tell us that life didn\'t originate on Earth.
It does suggest that a Darwinian evolution of life on earth is essentially impossible.
On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:11:34 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 22/09/2023 12:01, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 04:50:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:34:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jl@997arbor.com> wrote in <0okogitsqq469s48m72g8h36unr2hh1p25@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many
chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations
to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
Only by people with a very large Goddidit axe to grind. They ask the
wrong question deliberately and get an impossibly improbable answer.
Life is impossible without divine intervention. They start from that
answer and construct a fallacious argument to match their beliefs.
The evidence so far is that wherever there is liquid water and a
sufficiently long period of geological time there may well be life. Even
the liquid water requirement might possibly be relaxed to allow for life
that has evolved to live (very slowly) in solid ice or rocks.
Don\'t know what inhibits your understanding, religion?
Do you claim to understand how DNA self-assembled on Earth? Nobody
else does.
DNA was the final stage which replicates much more reliably.
RNA world came first and we still have viroids today that are nothing
more than infectious loops of bare RNA targetting mostly plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid
Some of them extremely damaging to commercial crops and plants and all
of them so small even when compared to viruses as to be unfilterable.
Many biologists who look at evolutionary biology consider them to be the
last remnants of the original RNA chemical soup world still hanging on
in a now mostly DNA and cellular one. Diener\'s hypothesis in 1989 being
one of the more compelling arguments for them being such a relic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid#RNA_world_hypothesis
Quite likely before that there were self replicating molecules like
peptides or polysaccharides that did no more than catalyse formation of
copies of their own molecular structure from basic ingredients.
That\'s absurd. Nobody has found or synthesied a self-replicating RNA
that could possibly evolve into our life form.
Life uses chemistry but chemistry isn\'t enough. What\'s key is
structure.
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:48:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 7:35:16?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
A planet is not a jar. Clay-like minerals are catalysts and substrates for reactions
too slow to be part of our human chemical technology, but that kind of milieu is
as full of life as Earth\'s oceans of \'colored water\' are, and \'the math\' on this subject does not
tell us that life didn\'t originate on Earth.
It does suggest that a Darwinian evolution of life on earth is
essentially impossible.
Considering all possibilities is a good approach to electronic design
too.
On 25/09/2023 15:45, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:11:34 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 22/09/2023 12:01, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 04:50:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:34:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jl@997arbor.com> wrote in <0okogitsqq469s48m72g8h36unr2hh1p25@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many
chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations
to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
Only by people with a very large Goddidit axe to grind. They ask the
wrong question deliberately and get an impossibly improbable answer.
Life is impossible without divine intervention. They start from that
answer and construct a fallacious argument to match their beliefs.
The evidence so far is that wherever there is liquid water and a
sufficiently long period of geological time there may well be life. Even
the liquid water requirement might possibly be relaxed to allow for life
that has evolved to live (very slowly) in solid ice or rocks.
Don\'t know what inhibits your understanding, religion?
Do you claim to understand how DNA self-assembled on Earth? Nobody
else does.
DNA was the final stage which replicates much more reliably.
RNA world came first and we still have viroids today that are nothing
more than infectious loops of bare RNA targetting mostly plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid
Some of them extremely damaging to commercial crops and plants and all
of them so small even when compared to viruses as to be unfilterable.
Many biologists who look at evolutionary biology consider them to be the
last remnants of the original RNA chemical soup world still hanging on
in a now mostly DNA and cellular one. Diener\'s hypothesis in 1989 being
one of the more compelling arguments for them being such a relic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viroid#RNA_world_hypothesis
Quite likely before that there were self replicating molecules like
peptides or polysaccharides that did no more than catalyse formation of
copies of their own molecular structure from basic ingredients.
That\'s absurd. Nobody has found or synthesied a self-replicating RNA
that could possibly evolve into our life form.
Actually they are very close experimentally now. Arguably they may have
already have replicated the first step in vitro. It will be Nobel Prize
winning research when it is finally confirmed and verified. eg.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32023041/
Various other groups have different plausible chemistries in play.
Nature had geological timescales to play with. You lack the imagination
to see how abiogenisis could possibly happen so you cling to your God of
the Gaps \"Just so stories\" as a comfort blanket for the superstitious.
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 10:13:11?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:48:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 7:35:16?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid
wrote:
New recipes for origin of life may point way to distant, inhabited planets
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230919155043.htm
Summary:
Life on a faraway planet -- if it\'s out there -- might not look anything like life on Earth. But there are only so many chemical ingredients in the universe\'s pantry, and only so many ways to mix them. Scientists have now exploited those limitations to write a cookbook of hundreds of chemical recipes with the potential to give rise to life.
Self-assembly, told you so!
A bunch of bottles filled with chemicals don\'t generate life any more
than a box full of electronic parts creates a computer. The issue
isn\'t parts, it\'s design.
DNA won\'t self-assemble from a jar full of colored water with stuff
dissolved. The math has been done on that.
A planet is not a jar. Clay-like minerals are catalysts and substrates for reactions
too slow to be part of our human chemical technology, but that kind of milieu is
as full of life as Earth\'s oceans of \'colored water\' are, and \'the math\' on this subject does not
tell us that life didn\'t originate on Earth.
It does suggest that a Darwinian evolution of life on earth is
essentially impossible.
Oh, you can \'suggest\' anything with a theoretical model. We don\'t
see all the steps of life\'s origin, but \'evolution of life\' certainly happens.
Clay doesn\'t self-organize into living cells.
How do you know that?
Where\'s the math on bilipid layers for cell membranes?
Since nobody can explain life, one might consider all possibilities.
Many people can explain life. I rank possibilities, the \'life didn\'t originate on Earth\'
is a low-ranking one. Panspermia is one of many variant theories that include that
hypothesis.
Considering all possibilities is a good approach to electronic design
too.
\'Considering\' just means thinking; it\'s a pretty general term, but not exactly
a design virtue. Pruning the decision tree speeds up any algorithm, and
the first design to the showroom floor won\'t be from a \'consider all possibilities\'
slowpoke.
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 09:41:02 +0100, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 25/09/2023 15:45, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:11:34 +0100, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad..co.uk> wrote:
On 22/09/2023 12:01, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 04:50:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:34:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin <j...@997arbor.com> wrote in <0okogitsqq469s48m...@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
Nature had geological timescales to play with. You lack the imagination to see how abiogenisis could possibly happen so you cling to your God of the Gaps \"Just so stories\" as a comfort blanket for the superstitious.
I am usually accused of having too much imagination.
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 03:10:06 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 10:13:11?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:48:51 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 7:35:16?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2023 04:33:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
Considering all possibilities is a good approach to electronic design too.
\'Considering\' just means thinking; it\'s a pretty general term, but not exactly a design virtue. Pruning the decision tree speeds up any algorithm, and the first design to the showroom floor won\'t be from a \'consider all possibilities\' slowpoke.
Show us some interesting electronics that you\'ve designed.
On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 03:10:06 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 10:13:11?AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
Considering all possibilities is a good approach to electronic design
too.
\'Considering\' just means thinking; it\'s a pretty general term, but not exactly
a design virtue. Pruning the decision tree speeds up any algorithm, and
the first design to the showroom floor won\'t be from a \'consider all possibilities\'
slowpoke.
Show us some interesting electronics that you\'ve designed.