muddy sound

N

N_Cook

Guest
In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there
a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over,
clipping, phasing etc ?
I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
 
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:31:58 -0000, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

:In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there
:a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over,
:clipping, phasing etc ?
:I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
:presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.


what is a "record cartridge"?
 
Ross Herbert <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:utq5o418btrhgcuq944kkoo74bio7rg9rf@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:31:58 -0000, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

:In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is
there
:a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms
cross-over,
:clipping, phasing etc ?
:I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
:presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.


what is a "record cartridge"?
Click to expand...
!960s vinyl/shellac? record deck cartridge , before piezo days anyway, so
damp gets into the crystal and it disintegrates. Not drilled out the rivet
to inspect as owner may want the original but I suspect crystal is
delaminating and/or parts turning to paste, the remnant functional parts
resonating in use


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
 
N_Cook wrote:
In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there
a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over,
clipping, phasing etc ?
Click to expand...
Don't know if isolated if it's a distortion, as such. Just a limited
frequency response caused by the mechanical failure.

It could be coupled with a distortion (say by resonance as your given
speaker example) but alone could have the effect of a tweeter disabled
in a two-way speaker cabinet - or both drivers disabled and you are
listening to the full bandwidth programme source though the system's
subwoofer amp and driver.

Now that, *does* sound rather muddy....

--
Adrian C
 
Adrian C <email@here.invalid> wrote in message
news:6ugdbfFfdajuU1@mid.individual.net...
N_Cook wrote:
In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is
there
a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms
cross-over,
clipping, phasing etc ?

Don't know if isolated if it's a distortion, as such. Just a limited
frequency response caused by the mechanical failure.

It could be coupled with a distortion (say by resonance as your given
speaker example) but alone could have the effect of a tweeter disabled
in a two-way speaker cabinet - or both drivers disabled and you are
listening to the full bandwidth programme source though the system's
subwoofer amp and driver.

Now that, *does* sound rather muddy....

--
Adrian C
Click to expand...
An element of that , loss of full tonal range, that absentee fraction
modulated by a few Hz or so perhaps.
I have a test CD with separate channels of sine of various frequencies but
no similar vinyl disc to play and observe on a scope.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
 
In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there
a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over,
clipping, phasing etc ?

I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.
Click to expand...
The muddy sound you're describing could be composed of a number of
different types of distortion. Broadly speaking, you're probably
hearing both linear and non-linear distortion mechanisms.

Linear distortion (or so I've heard it called) would be a change in
the cartridge's frequency response... I believe that this could happen
if the cantilever suspension were to become stiff with age (e.g. if
it's rubber and has been affected by atmospheric ozone). If the edges
of the stylus are worn, the stylus might no longer be able to trace
out the narrower (high-frequency) parts of the groove, and could sound
dull and muddy.

Nonlinear distortion could result from a worn or damaged stylus, from
sagging of the cantilever within its suspension, perhaps from
suspension stiffening, or from any sort of physical damage within the
cartridge. You'd observe this sort of distortion as the creation of
new (unwanted) frequencies within the cartridge's output... e.g.
harmonic distortion or intermodulation distortion (or, most likely,
both at the same time depending on the frequency content of the music
you are playing).

You might also run into "tracing distortion", where the cartridge
sounds OK when playing quiet passages but sound horrible (gritty,
harsh, spitty) when playing loud passages. This happens when the
stylus can no longer stay in contact with the walls of the record
groove, and starts bouncing around in the groove... an effect which
can cause immediate physical damage to the record! You can think of
this as a sort of mechanical clipping, if you like.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
 
N_Cook wrote:
An element of that , loss of full tonal range, that absentee fraction
modulated by a few Hz or so perhaps.
I have a test CD with separate channels of sine of various frequencies but
no similar vinyl disc to play and observe on a scope.
Click to expand...
Mad idea, how about gently dropping the stylus on the cone edge of a
small speaker connected to a signal generator, with another more modern
ceramic cartridge stylus mounted at a similar postion further along the
ridge? You could then carefully wind the drive and frequency up and get
a comparative difference of output level between the two.

Or if not being asked by the owner to persue an exact replacement*, then
transfer the guts of the cartidge inside.

* What's the make/model of the cart / arm / deck and the mounting
measurements? Someone here may have something laying about.

--
Adrian C
 
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:31:24 -0000, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

:Ross Herbert <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
:news:utq5o418btrhgcuq944kkoo74bio7rg9rf@4ax.com...
:> On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:31:58 -0000, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
:>
:> :In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is
:there
:> :a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms
:cross-over,
:> :clipping, phasing etc ?
:> :I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
:> :presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.
:>
:>
:> what is a "record cartridge"?
:
:!960s vinyl/shellac? record deck cartridge , before piezo days anyway, so
:damp gets into the crystal and it disintegrates. Not drilled out the rivet
:to inspect as owner may want the original but I suspect crystal is
:delaminating and/or parts turning to paste, the remnant functional parts
:resonating in use


So you meant to say a "phono cartridge" intended for playing back vinyl
recordings. I have never heard a phono cartidge referred to as a "record
cartridge" - ever.

As you say, older crystal and ceramic cartridges failed due to disintegration of
the piezo element. But I think they also became "muddy" sounding when the pliant
mounting blocks lost their resilience.
 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:l9bc56-6vm.ln1@radagast.org...
In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is
there
a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms
cross-over,
clipping, phasing etc ?

I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.

The muddy sound you're describing could be composed of a number of
different types of distortion. Broadly speaking, you're probably
hearing both linear and non-linear distortion mechanisms.

Linear distortion (or so I've heard it called) would be a change in
the cartridge's frequency response... I believe that this could happen
if the cantilever suspension were to become stiff with age (e.g. if
it's rubber and has been affected by atmospheric ozone). If the edges
of the stylus are worn, the stylus might no longer be able to trace
out the narrower (high-frequency) parts of the groove, and could sound
dull and muddy.

Nonlinear distortion could result from a worn or damaged stylus, from
sagging of the cantilever within its suspension, perhaps from
suspension stiffening, or from any sort of physical damage within the
cartridge. You'd observe this sort of distortion as the creation of
new (unwanted) frequencies within the cartridge's output... e.g.
harmonic distortion or intermodulation distortion (or, most likely,
both at the same time depending on the frequency content of the music
you are playing).

You might also run into "tracing distortion", where the cartridge
sounds OK when playing quiet passages but sound horrible (gritty,
harsh, spitty) when playing loud passages. This happens when the
stylus can no longer stay in contact with the walls of the record
groove, and starts bouncing around in the groove... an effect which
can cause immediate physical damage to the record! You can think of
this as a sort of mechanical clipping, if you like.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
Click to expand...

Yes you never know until you burrow inside. Ground down the rivet of this
BSR X3M piezo element phono cartridge, about 1970. The blue rubbery
suspension element breaking down "doll's disease" fashion or whatever the
chemical process is. The same process that makes "rubber" grommets melt the
hard plastic of drawered storage cabinets. Anyway the surrounding hard
plastic "melting" and vinegar/plasticizer or whatever interfering with the
contact between piezo foil tails and the contacts leading out, or the goo
having a damping effect or both.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
 
Ross Herbert wrote:

So you meant to say a "phono cartridge" intended for playing back vinyl
recordings. I have never heard a phono cartidge referred to as a "record
cartridge" - ever.
Click to expand...
That's because you call it a phonograph record and we call it a
gramophone record.

The archaic (but still used) term for playback on radio and live
production is 'Grams' even tho it`s likely to be tape or these days cd
in origin.



Ron
 
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:40:07 +0000, Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

:Ross Herbert wrote:
:
:>
:> So you meant to say a "phono cartridge" intended for playing back vinyl
:> recordings. I have never heard a phono cartidge referred to as a "record
:> cartridge" - ever.
:
:That's because you call it a phonograph record and we call it a
:gramophone record.
:
:The archaic (but still used) term for playback on radio and live
:production is 'Grams' even tho it`s likely to be tape or these days cd
:in origin.
:
:
:
:Ron


Well Ron, for your information I'm Australian, and therefore my orientation is
more with British terminology than American - although I am familiar with both.

The use of the term "gramophone record" has not been around since the 1950's to
my recollection, and in Australia we dispensed with the term "gramophone" when
referring to vinyl discs even before this. We referred to them simply as
"records".

I have never heard the term "Grams" used anywhere in conjunction with radio or
live production. Also, these days (actually, since the early 90's), many radio
broadcasters began moving over to digital storage rather than using tape and I
think they even transferred music to digital storage and retrieval systems. One
such system was designed by the ABC in Australia - known as D-CART.
http://www.dhub.org/object/9493,audio and this was sold to US and EU
broadcasters as well. The original system has largely been superseded since
then.

In the late 90's ABC designed D-Radio, a digital system which pulls all the
functions of modern radio production and broadcasting together.
 
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:01:32 GMT, Ross Herbert <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

:
:In the late 90's ABC designed D-Radio, a digital system which pulls all the
:functions of modern radio production and broadcasting together.

http://www.designawards.com.au/application_detail.jsp?applicationID=3973
 
Ross Herbert wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:40:07 +0000, Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

:Ross Herbert wrote:
:
:
:> So you meant to say a "phono cartridge" intended for playing back vinyl
:> recordings. I have never heard a phono cartidge referred to as a "record
:> cartridge" - ever.
:
:That's because you call it a phonograph record and we call it a
:gramophone record.
:
:The archaic (but still used) term for playback on radio and live
:production is 'Grams' even tho it`s likely to be tape or these days cd
:in origin.
:
:
:
:Ron


Well Ron, for your information I'm Australian,
Click to expand...
I did notice your email addy.

and therefore my orientation is
more with British terminology than American - although I am familiar with both.
Click to expand...
Okee dokee, my mistake, yes it`s the leftpodians who call it a
phonograph record. Probably the Edison connection.
The use of the term "gramophone record" has not been around since the 1950's to
my recollection, and in Australia we dispensed with the term "gramophone" when
referring to vinyl discs even before this. We referred to them simply as
"records".
Click to expand...
We also always just called them records, and the device used to play
them, a record player, the crystal/ceramic/magnetic part was known as a
pickup cartridge.

We didnt call records vinyl till probably sometime in the 70`s as I recall.
I might still have a few BSR and ACOS cartridges kicking around somewhere

I have never heard the term "Grams" used anywhere in conjunction with radio or
live production.
Click to expand...

Maybe not in Australia, but certainly here and used by the BBC if not
now, until recently. It`s obviously a throwback to the early days of
broadcast, but one which has stuck, like using FX for effects returns.
I still write the word Grams on the mixer strip where the CD and MD
return are. ( and now the mp3 player )

Ron
 
On 2/1/2009 12:11 PM Ron spake thus:

Ross Herbert wrote:

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:40:07 +0000, Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

Well Ron, for your information I'm Australian,

I did notice your email addy.

and therefore my orientation is
more with British terminology than American - although I am familiar with both.

Okee dokee, my mistake, yes it`s the leftpodians who call it a
phonograph record. Probably the Edison connection.
Click to expand...
Correction--we just call them "records". The term "phonograph" hasn't
been part of ordinary language here (US) since the 1950s.

The use of the term "gramophone record" has not been around since the 1950's to
my recollection, and in Australia we dispensed with the term "gramophone" when
referring to vinyl discs even before this. We referred to them simply as
"records".

We also always just called them records, and the device used to play
them, a record player, the crystal/ceramic/magnetic part was known as a
pickup cartridge.
Click to expand...
Here, that's always just been called a "cartridge" (the "phonograph"
part being implicit) for as long as I can remember. Nobody here ever
said "pickup cartridge". The things *might* have been identified as
"phono" or "phonograph" cartridges in catalogs, but again not in common
parlance.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
 
I wonder where that expression came from, most mud is usually very
quiet :)

Phil
 
N_Cook wrote:

In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there
a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over,
clipping, phasing etc ?
I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone,
presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.
Click to expand...
I don't BELIEVE it !

Graham
 
N_Cook wrote:

Yes you never know until you burrow inside. Ground down the rivet of this
BSR X3M piezo element phono cartridge, about 1970. The blue rubbery
suspension element breaking down "doll's disease" fashion or whatever the
chemical process is. The same process that makes "rubber" grommets melt the
hard plastic of drawered storage cabinets. Anyway the surrounding hard
plastic "melting" and vinegar/plasticizer or whatever interfering with the
contact between piezo foil tails and the contacts leading out, or the goo
having a damping effect or both.
Click to expand...
Why the HELL would you want to examine the inside of an ultra cheap 40 y.o.
crystal / ceramic cartridge that's probably never seen a new needle in its
entire life ?

They ALL sounded shit btw.

Graham
 
Ross Herbert wrote:

I have never heard the term "Grams" used anywhere in conjunction with radio or
live production.
Click to expand...
You certainly would have in the BBC !

Graham
 
David Nebenzahl wrote:

Here, that's always just been called a "cartridge" (the "phonograph"
part being implicit) for as long as I can remember. Nobody here ever
said "pickup cartridge". The things *might* have been identified as
"phono" or "phonograph" cartridges in catalogs, but again not in common
parlance.
Click to expand...
An old Shure box didn't help either.

It says high trackability stereo dynetic cartridge.

Graham
 
On 2/2/2009 9:15 PM Eeyore spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Here, that's always just been called a "cartridge" (the "phonograph"
part being implicit) for as long as I can remember. Nobody here ever
said "pickup cartridge". The things *might* have been identified as
"phono" or "phonograph" cartridges in catalogs, but again not in common
parlance.

An old Shure box didn't help either.

It says high trackability stereo dynetic cartridge.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but that's pure marketing-speak. I'll bet they had an interesting
explanation of what "dynetic" meant ...

I remember Shure well. Grew up where they used to be (Evanston, Ill.,
just north of Chicago). 222 Hartrey Ave.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
 
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