Motion detector

[Baron]

Van Chocstraw Inscribed thus:

My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait 60
seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now stays on when
it used to go off. It clicks again when I block the detector, it times
out and clicks again but the light never goes out. What's the deal?

Welded relay contacts... New relay required !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Baron]

Sylvia Else Inscribed thus:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00ad7b7a$0$13124$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait
60 seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now
stays on when it used to go off. It clicks again when I block
the detector, it times out and clicks again but the light never
goes out. What's the deal?
Loose wire?
I'd be more inclined to think welded relay contacts :
Possibly - but would it still click?
Depends on the design of the armature.

OTOH, try to imagine how a *loose* wire would keep the light
*on* (yet the relay functioning) -- unless the loose wire
was shorting something...
A wire on the power side could come loose from where it's meant to
be attached, and land on the the attachment to the other side of the
switch. A spot of arc-welding would then hold it in place, leaving
the relay contacts to open and close with no effect.

**In someone's dream, perhaps. A capacitor failure is the most likely
culprit. Your suggestion is largely fantasy in a product which is
rarely moved. Even then, the worst examples of Chinese manufacture
never demonstrate such failure modes that you are suggesting. The
welded relay contacts, though unlikely with a resistive load, is far
more likely than a rogue wire making it's way inside the box.



Wires never come loose? And you know, of course, how the wires are
attached, how old the system is, how well protected from the elements
it is, etc.?

What are you going to do if the capacitor hasn't failed, and the
contacts are not welded - recommend a trip to the tip because it's not
worth looking to see whether a wire has come loose - that doesn't
happen?

If only equipment always failed the way it was meant to.

Sylvia.

I've had relay contacts feeding a light bulb weld together when the bulb
blew and the relay still switched the other pair of contacts just fine.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:EvedncHa1vpWja_WnZ2dnUVZ8kFi4p2d@bt.com...

On 23/12/2009 09:48, Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00a31c55$0$8060$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00ad7b7a$0$13124$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait 60
seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now stays on
when it used to go off. It clicks again when I block the
detector,
it times out and clicks again but the light never goes out.
What's
the deal?
Loose wire?
I'd be more inclined to think welded relay contacts :
Possibly - but would it still click?
Depends on the design of the armature.

OTOH, try to imagine how a *loose* wire would keep the light
*on* (yet the relay functioning) -- unless the loose wire
was shorting something...
A wire on the power side could come loose from where it's meant to be
attached, and land on the the attachment to the other side of the
switch. A spot of arc-welding would then hold it in place, leaving the
relay contacts to open and close with no effect.

**In someone's dream, perhaps. A capacitor failure is the most likely
culprit. Your suggestion is largely fantasy in a product which is
rarely
moved. Even then, the worst examples of Chinese manufacture never
demonstrate such failure modes that you are suggesting. The welded
relay
contacts, though unlikely with a resistive load, is far more likely
than
a rogue wire making it's way inside the box.



Wires never come loose?

**In my 40 years' experience of service? Almost never.

And you know, of course, how the wires are
attached, how old the system is, how well protected from the elements it
is, etc.?

**Such a product is normally expressly designed for outdoor use. As such,
the manufacturer will ensure that such an occurence is extremely
unlikely.


What are you going to do if the capacitor hasn't failed, and the
contacts
are not welded - recommend a trip to the tip because it's not worth
looking to see whether a wire has come loose - that doesn't happen?

**Here in the real world of service, we look for the obvious faults
first. A
loose wire that has mysteriously welded itself to a contact (with a
resistive load), though obvious to spot, is such a remote possibility,
that
it barely rates in the scheme of things.


If only equipment always failed the way it was meant to.

**Fortunately, that is pretty much what happens most of the time.


In my experience, many yard lights have the internal lamp switched by a
triac, and also have a relay for additional external lights. Maybe the
triac is s/c.

**That was my original suggestion. TRIACs are cheaper than relays. I've seen
systems where a very small relay is used (for isolation) to drive the gate
of a TRIAC. It is possible that such a system is used in the OP's one. More
likely it will be the suppression cap.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[AZ Nomad]

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 07:35:40 +1100, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:EvedncHa1vpWja_WnZ2dnUVZ8kFi4p2d@bt.com...
On 23/12/2009 09:48, Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00a31c55$0$8060$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00ad7b7a$0$13124$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait 60
seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now stays on
when it used to go off. It clicks again when I block the
detector,
it times out and clicks again but the light never goes out.
What's
the deal?
Loose wire?
I'd be more inclined to think welded relay contacts :
Possibly - but would it still click?
Depends on the design of the armature.

OTOH, try to imagine how a *loose* wire would keep the light
*on* (yet the relay functioning) -- unless the loose wire
was shorting something...
A wire on the power side could come loose from where it's meant to be
attached, and land on the the attachment to the other side of the
switch. A spot of arc-welding would then hold it in place, leaving the
relay contacts to open and close with no effect.

**In someone's dream, perhaps. A capacitor failure is the most likely
culprit. Your suggestion is largely fantasy in a product which is
rarely
moved. Even then, the worst examples of Chinese manufacture never
demonstrate such failure modes that you are suggesting. The welded
relay
contacts, though unlikely with a resistive load, is far more likely
than
a rogue wire making it's way inside the box.



Wires never come loose?

**In my 40 years' experience of service? Almost never.

And you know, of course, how the wires are
attached, how old the system is, how well protected from the elements it
is, etc.?

**Such a product is normally expressly designed for outdoor use. As such,
the manufacturer will ensure that such an occurence is extremely
unlikely.


What are you going to do if the capacitor hasn't failed, and the
contacts
are not welded - recommend a trip to the tip because it's not worth
looking to see whether a wire has come loose - that doesn't happen?

**Here in the real world of service, we look for the obvious faults
first. A
loose wire that has mysteriously welded itself to a contact (with a
resistive load), though obvious to spot, is such a remote possibility,
that
it barely rates in the scheme of things.


If only equipment always failed the way it was meant to.

**Fortunately, that is pretty much what happens most of the time.


In my experience, many yard lights have the internal lamp switched by a
triac, and also have a relay for additional external lights. Maybe the
triac is s/c.

**That was my original suggestion. TRIACs are cheaper than relays. I've seen
systems where a very small relay is used (for isolation) to drive the gate
of a TRIAC. It is possible that such a system is used in the OP's one. More
likely it will be the suppression cap.

Bizzare. Optoisolators are trivial to use for isolating triacs and can
have a photo trigger diac to eliminate everything on the load side but
the triac. I guess if it is a choice between a 10
cent optoisolator that'll last forever, and an 8 cent relay that'll
crap out in a year, they take the latter choice.

 

[Van Chocstraw]

William R. Walsh wrote:

Hi!

What's the deal?

Would there, by any chance, be a switch somewhere that can be used to
turn the light on all the time?

There is a test switch, nobody touched it. It's been working fine for years.

I've wired all of my motion lamps like that so I can turn the lights
on and force them to stay on until I turn the switch off.

YOu don't need to do that. If it's on a switch you just shut the switch
off and on real fast and it toggles it to stay on all the time. To go
back to motion detecting shut the switch off for 10 seconds or until you
hear the relay release then turn it back on.

William

 

[Van Chocstraw]

Baron wrote:

Van Chocstraw Inscribed thus:

My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait 60
seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now stays on when
it used to go off. It clicks again when I block the detector, it times
out and clicks again but the light never goes out. What's the deal?

Welded relay contacts... New relay required !

Yea. welded by ice.

 

[Sylvia Else]

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 07:35:40 +1100, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:EvedncHa1vpWja_WnZ2dnUVZ8kFi4p2d@bt.com...
On 23/12/2009 09:48, Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00a31c55$0$8060$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00ad7b7a$0$13124$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait 60
seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now stays on
when it used to go off. It clicks again when I block the
detector,
it times out and clicks again but the light never goes out.
What's
the deal?
Loose wire?
I'd be more inclined to think welded relay contacts :
Possibly - but would it still click?
Depends on the design of the armature.

OTOH, try to imagine how a *loose* wire would keep the light
*on* (yet the relay functioning) -- unless the loose wire
was shorting something...
A wire on the power side could come loose from where it's meant to be
attached, and land on the the attachment to the other side of the
switch. A spot of arc-welding would then hold it in place, leaving the
relay contacts to open and close with no effect.
**In someone's dream, perhaps. A capacitor failure is the most likely
culprit. Your suggestion is largely fantasy in a product which is
rarely
moved. Even then, the worst examples of Chinese manufacture never
demonstrate such failure modes that you are suggesting. The welded
relay
contacts, though unlikely with a resistive load, is far more likely
than
a rogue wire making it's way inside the box.


Wires never come loose?
**In my 40 years' experience of service? Almost never.

And you know, of course, how the wires are
attached, how old the system is, how well protected from the elements it
is, etc.?
**Such a product is normally expressly designed for outdoor use. As such,
the manufacturer will ensure that such an occurence is extremely
unlikely.

What are you going to do if the capacitor hasn't failed, and the
contacts
are not welded - recommend a trip to the tip because it's not worth
looking to see whether a wire has come loose - that doesn't happen?
**Here in the real world of service, we look for the obvious faults
first. A
loose wire that has mysteriously welded itself to a contact (with a
resistive load), though obvious to spot, is such a remote possibility,
that
it barely rates in the scheme of things.

If only equipment always failed the way it was meant to.
**Fortunately, that is pretty much what happens most of the time.


In my experience, many yard lights have the internal lamp switched by a
triac, and also have a relay for additional external lights. Maybe the
triac is s/c.

**That was my original suggestion. TRIACs are cheaper than relays. I've seen
systems where a very small relay is used (for isolation) to drive the gate
of a TRIAC. It is possible that such a system is used in the OP's one. More
likely it will be the suppression cap.

Bizzare. Optoisolators are trivial to use for isolating triacs and can
have a photo trigger diac to eliminate everything on the load side but
the triac. I guess if it is a choice between a 10
cent optoisolator that'll last forever, and an 8 cent relay that'll
crap out in a year, they take the latter choice.

Well, now, perhaps. But we don't know how old the faulty device is.

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device
that does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or
so, and is running 24/7.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupidest Bitch Alive Sylvia Else"

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device that
does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or so, and
is running 24/7.

** A triac cuts off load current as near as make no difference.

Leakage is in the uA range - not mA.

You IMBECILE !!



...... Phil

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00ae7bd9$0$17019$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 07:35:40 +1100, Trevor Wilson
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:EvedncHa1vpWja_WnZ2dnUVZ8kFi4p2d@bt.com...
On 23/12/2009 09:48, Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00a31c55$0$8060$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Sylvia Else"<sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:00ad7b7a$0$13124$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
D Yuniskis wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
My yard light won't go off any more. I block the detector wait
60
seconds and I hear the relay click off but the light now stays
on
when it used to go off. It clicks again when I block the
detector,
it times out and clicks again but the light never goes out.
What's
the deal?
Loose wire?
I'd be more inclined to think welded relay contacts :
Possibly - but would it still click?
Depends on the design of the armature.

OTOH, try to imagine how a *loose* wire would keep the light
*on* (yet the relay functioning) -- unless the loose wire
was shorting something...
A wire on the power side could come loose from where it's meant to
be
attached, and land on the the attachment to the other side of the
switch. A spot of arc-welding would then hold it in place, leaving
the
relay contacts to open and close with no effect.
**In someone's dream, perhaps. A capacitor failure is the most
likely
culprit. Your suggestion is largely fantasy in a product which is
rarely
moved. Even then, the worst examples of Chinese manufacture never
demonstrate such failure modes that you are suggesting. The welded
relay
contacts, though unlikely with a resistive load, is far more likely
than
a rogue wire making it's way inside the box.


Wires never come loose?
**In my 40 years' experience of service? Almost never.

And you know, of course, how the wires are
attached, how old the system is, how well protected from the elements
it
is, etc.?
**Such a product is normally expressly designed for outdoor use. As
such,
the manufacturer will ensure that such an occurence is extremely
unlikely.

What are you going to do if the capacitor hasn't failed, and the
contacts
are not welded - recommend a trip to the tip because it's not worth
looking to see whether a wire has come loose - that doesn't happen?
**Here in the real world of service, we look for the obvious faults
first. A
loose wire that has mysteriously welded itself to a contact (with a
resistive load), though obvious to spot, is such a remote possibility,
that
it barely rates in the scheme of things.

If only equipment always failed the way it was meant to.
**Fortunately, that is pretty much what happens most of the time.


In my experience, many yard lights have the internal lamp switched by a
triac, and also have a relay for additional external lights. Maybe the
triac is s/c.

**That was my original suggestion. TRIACs are cheaper than relays. I've
seen systems where a very small relay is used (for isolation) to drive
the gate of a TRIAC. It is possible that such a system is used in the
OP's one. More likely it will be the suppression cap.

Bizzare. Optoisolators are trivial to use for isolating triacs and can
have a photo trigger diac to eliminate everything on the load side but
the triac. I guess if it is a choice between a 10
cent optoisolator that'll last forever, and an 8 cent relay that'll
crap out in a year, they take the latter choice.

Well, now, perhaps. But we don't know how old the faulty device is.

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device that
does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or so, and
is running 24/7.

**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage current, in
fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay contacts. MUCH less.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson"

" Stupidest Bitch on Earth Sylvia Else"

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device
that does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or
so, and is running 24/7.

**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage current,
in fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay contacts. MUCH
less.

** The leakage current flowing in such a suppression cap produces no heat
and consumes no power.

Cos the PF is zero.


...... Phil

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <7pfpjsFrh0U1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device that
does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or so, and
is running 24/7.


** A triac cuts off load current as near as make no difference.

Leakage is in the uA range - not mA.

You IMBECILE !!

In the overview of triac-based solid state relays that I find at
Omega.com (they make these), they write:

The output-circuit ratings of the more common isolated
SSR's, most of which are designed to control ac load
circuits, are very similar to those described above,
except that OFF-state leakage is usually higher---on the
order of 5 mA at 140 V for a 5-ampere device---still only
about one-thousandth of the load current rating.

The data sheet for the AQ-R 10-to-40-ampere solid state relays
specifies a maximum off-state leakage current of 2.5 mA at 100 volts
AC, and 5 mA at 200 volts AC.

In the STMicroelectronics data sheet for the T835H and T850H "high
temperature 8A Triacs", they cite a maximum leakage of 5 uA at a
junction temperature of 25 degrees C, and as much as 3.1 mA at a
junction temperature of 150 degrees C.

Teccor's Lxx08xx series seem to go from the 10-50 uA range (25 C)
up to as much as 3 mA (100 C).

It looks as if there's a fair bit of range in the specifications and
behaviors, depending on temperature, voltage, and on whether you're
talking about just a triac in isolation or about a whole solid-state
relay circuit.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7pfquqF2cbU1@mid.individual.net...

"Trevor Wilson"

" Stupidest Bitch on Earth Sylvia Else"

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device
that does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or
so, and is running 24/7.

**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage current,
in fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay contacts. MUCH
less.


** The leakage current flowing in such a suppression cap produces no heat
and consumes no power.

Cos the PF is zero.

**Indeed it is, unless it the relay contacts happens to be in series with a
resistive load (like an incadescent lamp).


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:22ra07-mn9.ln1@radagast.org...

In article <7pfpjsFrh0U1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device
that
does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or so,
and
is running 24/7.


** A triac cuts off load current as near as make no difference.

Leakage is in the uA range - not mA.

You IMBECILE !!

In the overview of triac-based solid state relays that I find at
Omega.com (they make these), they write:

The output-circuit ratings of the more common isolated
SSR's, most of which are designed to control ac load
circuits, are very similar to those described above,
except that OFF-state leakage is usually higher---on the
order of 5 mA at 140 V for a 5-ampere device---still only
about one-thousandth of the load current rating.

The data sheet for the AQ-R 10-to-40-ampere solid state relays
specifies a maximum off-state leakage current of 2.5 mA at 100 volts
AC, and 5 mA at 200 volts AC.

In the STMicroelectronics data sheet for the T835H and T850H "high
temperature 8A Triacs", they cite a maximum leakage of 5 uA at a
junction temperature of 25 degrees C, and as much as 3.1 mA at a
junction temperature of 150 degrees C.

Teccor's Lxx08xx series seem to go from the 10-50 uA range (25 C)
up to as much as 3 mA (100 C).

It looks as if there's a fair bit of range in the specifications and
behaviors, depending on temperature, voltage, and on whether you're
talking about just a triac in isolation or about a whole solid-state
relay circuit.

**We can be absolutely certain that a motion detector light switch (unless
it is in a top secret, government funded military situation) will not be
using a SSR.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Phil Allison]

"Dave Platt is an IDIOT "

Phil Allison


** A triac cuts off load current as near as make no difference.

Leakage is in the uA range - not mA.

You IMBECILE !!

In the overview of triac-based solid state relays

** SSRs are not just triacs.

There may well be a snubber cap inside that draws AC current but causes no
dissipation.

IDIOT !!

In the STMicroelectronics data sheet for the T835H and T850H "high
temperature 8A Triacs", they cite a maximum leakage of 5 uA at a
junction temperature of 25 degrees C,

** QED

and as much as 3.1 mA at a junction temperature of 150 degrees C.

** If the device is off - guess what the temp is ???

IDIOT !!!

Teccor's Lxx08xx series seem to go from the 10-50 uA range (25 C)

** QED.

up to as much as 3 mA (100 C).

** If the device is off - guess what the temp is ???

Pal - when next you have nothing to say -

SHUT THE FUCK UP !!

You pathetic, radio ham IDIOT



..... Phil

 

[AZ Nomad]

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:13:39 +1100, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:22ra07-mn9.ln1@radagast.org...
In article <7pfpjsFrh0U1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device
that
does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or so,
and
is running 24/7.


** A triac cuts off load current as near as make no difference.

Leakage is in the uA range - not mA.

You IMBECILE !!

In the overview of triac-based solid state relays that I find at
Omega.com (they make these), they write:

The output-circuit ratings of the more common isolated
SSR's, most of which are designed to control ac load
circuits, are very similar to those described above,
except that OFF-state leakage is usually higher---on the
order of 5 mA at 140 V for a 5-ampere device---still only
about one-thousandth of the load current rating.

The data sheet for the AQ-R 10-to-40-ampere solid state relays
specifies a maximum off-state leakage current of 2.5 mA at 100 volts
AC, and 5 mA at 200 volts AC.
....

**We can be absolutely certain that a motion detector light switch (unless
it is in a top secret, government funded military situation) will not be
using a SSR.

and I think you can be pretty sure it won't switch 40A, although
you never know when you might want to have 2400watts of lighting.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson"

"Phil Allison"

**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage
current, in fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay
contacts. MUCH less.


** The leakage current flowing in such a suppression cap produces no heat
and consumes no power.

Cos the PF is zero.

**Indeed it is, unless it the relay contacts happens to be in series with
a resistive load (like an incadescent lamp).

** Huh ????

Cold lamps have typical resistances under 100ohms

The AC current from a 47nF cap at 240 volts is 3.5 mA

Do the math.

I get a PF of 0.0014

Over to you.....


..... Phil

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7pfv32FkduU1@mid.individual.net...

"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"

**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage
current, in fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay
contacts. MUCH less.


** The leakage current flowing in such a suppression cap produces no
heat and consumes no power.

Cos the PF is zero.

**Indeed it is, unless it the relay contacts happens to be in series with
a resistive load (like an incadescent lamp).


** Huh ????

Cold lamps have typical resistances under 100ohms

The AC current from a 47nF cap at 240 volts is 3.5 mA

Do the math.

I get a PF of 0.0014

Over to you.....

**Misunderstanding and poor wording by me. I do not dispute the PF. I was
making the point that the current through a typical suppression cap exceeds
the leakage current through a typical TRIAC. It was for Sylvia's benefit,
since you already knew that.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"AZ Nomad" <aznomad.3@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote in message
news:slrnhj5hhp.mom.aznomad.3@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:13:39 +1100, Trevor Wilson
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:22ra07-mn9.ln1@radagast.org...
In article <7pfpjsFrh0U1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

One advantage of a relay is that it really does cut the load current
to
zero, near as makes no difference. I haven't seen a solidstate device
that
does that, and at 240V, even a few milliamps adds up to a watt or so,
and
is running 24/7.


** A triac cuts off load current as near as make no difference.

Leakage is in the uA range - not mA.

You IMBECILE !!

In the overview of triac-based solid state relays that I find at
Omega.com (they make these), they write:

The output-circuit ratings of the more common isolated
SSR's, most of which are designed to control ac load
circuits, are very similar to those described above,
except that OFF-state leakage is usually higher---on the
order of 5 mA at 140 V for a 5-ampere device---still only
about one-thousandth of the load current rating.

The data sheet for the AQ-R 10-to-40-ampere solid state relays
specifies a maximum off-state leakage current of 2.5 mA at 100 volts
AC, and 5 mA at 200 volts AC.
...

**We can be absolutely certain that a motion detector light switch (unless
it is in a top secret, government funded military situation) will not be
using a SSR.

and I think you can be pretty sure it won't switch 40A, although
you never know when you might want to have 2400watts of lighting.

**No problems over here. A small (TO-220), heat sunk TRIAC will easily
switch 2.4kVA of resistive or, (more importantly) inductive loads. 2.4KW
lighting tends to be very inductive. Relays die very quickly under such
loads.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Sylvia Else]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7pfv32FkduU1@mid.individual.net...
"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"
**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage
current, in fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay
contacts. MUCH less.

** The leakage current flowing in such a suppression cap produces no
heat and consumes no power.

Cos the PF is zero.
**Indeed it is, unless it the relay contacts happens to be in series with
a resistive load (like an incadescent lamp).

** Huh ????

Cold lamps have typical resistances under 100ohms

The AC current from a 47nF cap at 240 volts is 3.5 mA

Do the math.

I get a PF of 0.0014

Over to you.....

**Misunderstanding and poor wording by me. I do not dispute the PF. I was
making the point that the current through a typical suppression cap exceeds
the leakage current through a typical TRIAC. It was for Sylvia's benefit,
since you already knew that.

It didn't, and doesn't, seem relevant though, given that my point
related to power consumption.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0011d0d7$0$2124$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7pfv32FkduU1@mid.individual.net...
"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"
**Complete bollocks. A TRIAC has miniscule leakage. Less leakage
current, in fact, than the suppression capacitor across the relay
contacts. MUCH less.

** The leakage current flowing in such a suppression cap produces no
heat and consumes no power.

Cos the PF is zero.
**Indeed it is, unless it the relay contacts happens to be in series
with a resistive load (like an incadescent lamp).

** Huh ????

Cold lamps have typical resistances under 100ohms

The AC current from a 47nF cap at 240 volts is 3.5 mA

Do the math.

I get a PF of 0.0014

Over to you.....

**Misunderstanding and poor wording by me. I do not dispute the PF. I was
making the point that the current through a typical suppression cap
exceeds the leakage current through a typical TRIAC. It was for Sylvia's
benefit, since you already knew that.



It didn't, and doesn't, seem relevant though, given that my point related
to power consumption.

**It is very relevant. The leakage current through a typical suppression cap
across a relay is in the order of milliamps. The leakage across a tyical
TRIAC is in the order of microamps. The use of a relay in such an
application does not guarantee zero power consumption when non-operational.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au