B
bitrex
Guest
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
<https://www.vortex86.com/products>
(no financial affiliation)
<https://www.vortex86.com/products>
(no financial affiliation)
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bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in news:ONPVJ.66196$yi_7.35911
@fx39.iad:
I did not see \"486\" it says \"X86\".
Likely a 386 \'like\' core. I doubt it got copied without big problems
with the 486 API and micro-architecture.
@fx39.iad:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I did not see \"486\" it says \"X86\".
Likely a 386 \'like\' core. I doubt it got copied without big problems
with the 486 API and micro-architecture.
B
bitrex
Guest
On 3/8/2022 10:01 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Has to represent itself as something to the OS, and it says it supports
Linux up to kernel 4.14, but Linux dropped support for 386 hardware in
kernel v 3.8:
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/good-bye-386-linux-to-drop-support-for-i386-chips-with-next-major-release/>
So I\'m guessing it represents itself to a later kernel as as at least a
486-class processor, though perhaps it could still be more-or-less a 386
under-the-hood, and just implement the set of instructions needed to get
a later kernel version to work.
Looks like on more modern Linux kernels without support for i386 an
atomic compare-and-swap instruction is part of what\'s required, that the
386-class CPU didn\'t have.
bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in news:ONPVJ.66196$yi_7.35911
@fx39.iad:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I did not see \"486\" it says \"X86\".
Likely a 386 \'like\' core. I doubt it got copied without big problems
with the 486 API and micro-architecture.
Has to represent itself as something to the OS, and it says it supports
Linux up to kernel 4.14, but Linux dropped support for 386 hardware in
kernel v 3.8:
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/good-bye-386-linux-to-drop-support-for-i386-chips-with-next-major-release/>
So I\'m guessing it represents itself to a later kernel as as at least a
486-class processor, though perhaps it could still be more-or-less a 386
under-the-hood, and just implement the set of instructions needed to get
a later kernel version to work.
Looks like on more modern Linux kernels without support for i386 an
atomic compare-and-swap instruction is part of what\'s required, that the
386-class CPU didn\'t have.
J
Jan Panteltje
Guest
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7.35911@fx39.iad>:
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot, analog audio out,
USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7 here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
<user@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7.35911@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot, analog audio out,
USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7 here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
S
server
Guest
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:t09n79$ak2$1@dont-email.me:
Wow, this inane verging on croaking angry old fucktard actually did
something right. Amazing!
news:t09n79$ak2$1@dont-email.me:
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware
acceleration PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Wow, this inane verging on croaking angry old fucktard actually did
something right. Amazing!
A
amdx
Guest
On 3/9/2022 4:18 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
I think you finally went off your rocker.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:t09n79$ak2$1@dont-email.me:
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware
acceleration PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Wow, this inane verging on croaking angry old fucktard actually did
something right. Amazing!
I think you finally went off your rocker.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
R
Rick C
Guest
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs up the cost. The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit. If the same was done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux and other OS.
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi. There\'s nothing magical about the ARM processors they are built on. Most electronics is reliable. You actually have to work pretty hard to design non-power electronics that isn\'t reliable. It\'s inherent in the nature of electronics these days.
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot, analog audio out,
USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7 here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs up the cost. The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit. If the same was done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux and other OS.
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi. There\'s nothing magical about the ARM processors they are built on. Most electronics is reliable. You actually have to work pretty hard to design non-power electronics that isn\'t reliable. It\'s inherent in the nature of electronics these days.
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
R
Rick C
Guest
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 10:16:50 AM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
That\'s assuming he was ever on it.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 3/9/2022 4:18 AM, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:t09n79$ak2$1...@dont-email.me:
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware
acceleration PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Wow, this inane verging on croaking angry old fucktard actually did
something right. Amazing!
I think you finally went off your rocker.
That\'s assuming he was ever on it.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
D
David Brown
Guest
On 09/03/2022 16:39, Rick C wrote:
Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper
embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.
Yes, that\'s how it started. Then it took off, and it is
self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks
behind it try to make a significant profit.)
There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based
systems for price or power. It\'s probably not impossible, but basic ARM
cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated
by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.
Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess
people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even
on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded
cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be
useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still
embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).
> There\'s nothing magical about the rPi.
True.
True.
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big
manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje
wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days, so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in. Quad core each. The
latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc
:-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a
lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs
up the cost.
Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper
embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.
The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was
thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit.
Yes, that\'s how it started. Then it took off, and it is
self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks
behind it try to make a significant profit.)
If the same was
done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made
and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux
and other OS.
There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based
systems for price or power. It\'s probably not impossible, but basic ARM
cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated
by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.
Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess
people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even
on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded
cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be
useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still
embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).
> There\'s nothing magical about the rPi.
True.
There\'s nothing magical about
the ARM processors they are built on.
True.
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big
manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.
S
server
Guest
amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote in news:t0agco$div$2@dont-email.me:
The JanTard is about as loony as it gets, regardless of what he has
done over the years in his garage.
You must not have seen his retarded rants of late.
What should be \"late\" is the obit wher he is the late JanTard.
Because that is all the retarded old fuck deserves.
As if I would give a fat flying fuck what you think.On 3/9/2022 4:18 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org
wrote:
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:t09n79$ak2$1@dont-email.me:
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware
acceleration PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Wow, this inane verging on croaking angry old fucktard actually
did
something right. Amazing!
I think you finally went off your rocker.
The JanTard is about as loony as it gets, regardless of what he has
done over the years in his garage.
You must not have seen his retarded rants of late.
What should be \"late\" is the obit wher he is the late JanTard.
Because that is all the retarded old fuck deserves.
S
server
Guest
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ee216fe6-b723-4450-aaca-b77651628f9bn@googlegroups.com:
Your chip has NO HDMI or audio.
His multi-chip board carries all the needs and does it very cheaply.
What is to piss and moan about? Oh that\'s right... you piss and moan
about so many things.
That chip is a processor. To make use of it, MANY other chips would
have to be incorporated into a design to make a functional product.
Even for industrial applications, which is its target.
news:ee216fe6-b723-4450-aaca-b77651628f9bn@googlegroups.com:
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to
a lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that
runs up the cost.
Your chip has NO HDMI or audio.
His multi-chip board carries all the needs and does it very cheaply.
What is to piss and moan about? Oh that\'s right... you piss and moan
about so many things.
That chip is a processor. To make use of it, MANY other chips would
have to be incorporated into a design to make a functional product.
Even for industrial applications, which is its target.
A
Adrian Caspersz
Guest
On 08/03/2022 21:21, bitrex wrote:
A couple of things that use it ...
This Commercial Kitchen Appliance Uses an Original Pentium Clone CPU
(and Runs DOS)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdSJgoP2a88
MSTI PDX-1000 1 GHz Vortex86DX Linux thin client PC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqtQ3ySE6c
--
Adrian C
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
A couple of things that use it ...
This Commercial Kitchen Appliance Uses an Original Pentium Clone CPU
(and Runs DOS)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdSJgoP2a88
MSTI PDX-1000 1 GHz Vortex86DX Linux thin client PC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqtQ3ySE6c
--
Adrian C
S
server
Guest
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:010dc146-b26d-4d50-9c39-27f632b85dden@googlegroups.com:
Well I was born via a female birth canal. You act like you were
birthed from some slut\'s anus, which she or he then forgot to flush.
You keep making jabs at me punk, and you will get them right back
in your face.
Go run off and re-filter me now fucktard.
That has always been your only escape, you pathetic cringing
milksop. errr... Piece of shit.
news:010dc146-b26d-4d50-9c39-27f632b85dden@googlegroups.com:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 10:16:50 AM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
On 3/9/2022 4:18 AM, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:t09n79$ak2$1...@dont-email.me:
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card
slot, analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware
acceleration PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years
24/7 here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Wow, this inane verging on croaking angry old fucktard actually
did something right. Amazing!
I think you finally went off your rocker.
That\'s assuming he was ever on it.
Well I was born via a female birth canal. You act like you were
birthed from some slut\'s anus, which she or he then forgot to flush.
You keep making jabs at me punk, and you will get them right back
in your face.
Go run off and re-filter me now fucktard.
That has always been your only escape, you pathetic cringing
milksop. errr... Piece of shit.
S
server
Guest
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote in
news:t0alfn$rru$1@dont-email.me:
They should have continued developing and upgrading the Cell
processor, but that was doomed by the fact that multiple companies were
involved who were long time competitors with each other.
But it was a hell of a CPU, and little lab sized super computers were
even made from it using game consoles, so it was pretty robsut for it\'s
day and could have easily scaled up to beat Intel or AMD\'s crap.
news:t0alfn$rru$1@dont-email.me:
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the
big manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the
one to watch.
They should have continued developing and upgrading the Cell
processor, but that was doomed by the fact that multiple companies were
involved who were long time competitors with each other.
But it was a hell of a CPU, and little lab sized super computers were
even made from it using game consoles, so it was pretty robsut for it\'s
day and could have easily scaled up to beat Intel or AMD\'s crap.
R
Rick C
Guest
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
Ah, so you agree. It\'s nice for people to support once in a while rather than always arguing.
Didn\'t say they were. My point is there\'s not a lot of opportunity to compete given the cost and risk of ramping up a similar project. What made the rPi a success was the Musk approach of announcing a price point that was not sustainable by a for-profit company and barely was a breakeven for a non-profit, in addition to the publicity from being a non-profit targeting \"education\". In Musk\'s case they never made a profit at $35,000 and now you have to spend something like $45,000 for an entry level car. The rPi is a lot more than $25 now. I see a model for $75. Yup, they took a page out of Elon Musk\'s playbook.
So you have the details that show this to be the case for the Vortex86?
You don\'t know what the market is for a small Windows machine. It has the one humongous advantage of not having to learn Linux. I know a guy who uses a complete small form factor PC for similar things as an rPi would be used for by others, complete with a 23 inch monitor and keyboard. He just likes the convenience of the interface, since that\'s what is used by 99% of people who aren\'t geeks.
You are thinking like a geek. Windows is not for geeks. Maybe, if you try hard enough, you can think like a person who isn\'t a geek. It is not always about which is the \"better\" product. Beta was a better video tape format, but VHS was the one we ended up using.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 09/03/2022 16:39, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje
wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days, so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in. Quad core each. The
latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc
:-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a
lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs
up the cost.
Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper
embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.
Ah, so you agree. It\'s nice for people to support once in a while rather than always arguing.
The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was
thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit.
Yes, that\'s how it started. Then it took off, and it is
self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks
behind it try to make a significant profit.)
Didn\'t say they were. My point is there\'s not a lot of opportunity to compete given the cost and risk of ramping up a similar project. What made the rPi a success was the Musk approach of announcing a price point that was not sustainable by a for-profit company and barely was a breakeven for a non-profit, in addition to the publicity from being a non-profit targeting \"education\". In Musk\'s case they never made a profit at $35,000 and now you have to spend something like $45,000 for an entry level car. The rPi is a lot more than $25 now. I see a model for $75. Yup, they took a page out of Elon Musk\'s playbook.
If the same was
done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made
and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux
and other OS.
There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based
systems for price or power. It\'s probably not impossible, but basic ARM
cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated
by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.
So you have the details that show this to be the case for the Vortex86?
Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess
people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even
on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded
cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be
useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still
embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).
You don\'t know what the market is for a small Windows machine. It has the one humongous advantage of not having to learn Linux. I know a guy who uses a complete small form factor PC for similar things as an rPi would be used for by others, complete with a 23 inch monitor and keyboard. He just likes the convenience of the interface, since that\'s what is used by 99% of people who aren\'t geeks.
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi.
True.
There\'s nothing magical about
the ARM processors they are built on.
True.
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big
manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.
You are thinking like a geek. Windows is not for geeks. Maybe, if you try hard enough, you can think like a person who isn\'t a geek. It is not always about which is the \"better\" product. Beta was a better video tape format, but VHS was the one we ended up using.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
L
Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Guest
onsdag den 9. marts 2022 kl. 18.35.59 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
but 32bit windows is going the way of the dinosaurs, afaik OEMs have not been able to get windows in 32 bit for few years, and win11 is 64bit only
but who other that someone needing to run some prehistoric 32 bit x86 application in some kind of embedded device has any use for a 486?
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
On 09/03/2022 16:39, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje
wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days, so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in. Quad core each. The
latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc
:-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a
lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs
up the cost.
Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper
embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.
Ah, so you agree. It\'s nice for people to support once in a while rather than always arguing.
The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was
thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit.
Yes, that\'s how it started. Then it took off, and it is
self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks
behind it try to make a significant profit.)
Didn\'t say they were. My point is there\'s not a lot of opportunity to compete given the cost and risk of ramping up a similar project. What made the rPi a success was the Musk approach of announcing a price point that was not sustainable by a for-profit company and barely was a breakeven for a non-profit, in addition to the publicity from being a non-profit targeting \"education\". In Musk\'s case they never made a profit at $35,000 and now you have to spend something like $45,000 for an entry level car. The rPi is a lot more than $25 now. I see a model for $75. Yup, they took a page out of Elon Musk\'s playbook.
If the same was
done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made
and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux
and other OS.
There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based
systems for price or power. It\'s probably not impossible, but basic ARM
cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated
by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.
So you have the details that show this to be the case for the Vortex86?
Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess
people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even
on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded
cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be
useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still
embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).
You don\'t know what the market is for a small Windows machine. It has the one humongous advantage of not having to learn Linux. I know a guy who uses a complete small form factor PC for similar things as an rPi would be used for by others, complete with a 23 inch monitor and keyboard. He just likes the convenience of the interface, since that\'s what is used by 99% of people who aren\'t geeks.
but 32bit windows is going the way of the dinosaurs, afaik OEMs have not been able to get windows in 32 bit for few years, and win11 is 64bit only
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi.
True.
There\'s nothing magical about
the ARM processors they are built on.
True.
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big
manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.
You are thinking like a geek. Windows is not for geeks. Maybe, if you try hard enough, you can think like a person who isn\'t a geek. It is not always about which is the \"better\" product. Beta was a better video tape format, but VHS was the one we ended up using.
but who other that someone needing to run some prehistoric 32 bit x86 application in some kind of embedded device has any use for a 486?
P
Phil Hobbs
Guest
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
onsdag den 9. marts 2022 kl. 18.35.59 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
On 09/03/2022 16:39, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje
wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days, so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in. Quad core each. The
latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc
:-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a
lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs
up the cost.
Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper
embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.
Ah, so you agree. It\'s nice for people to support once in a while rather than always arguing.
The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was
thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit.
Yes, that\'s how it started. Then it took off, and it is
self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks
behind it try to make a significant profit.)
Didn\'t say they were. My point is there\'s not a lot of opportunity to compete given the cost and risk of ramping up a similar project. What made the rPi a success was the Musk approach of announcing a price point that was not sustainable by a for-profit company and barely was a breakeven for a non-profit, in addition to the publicity from being a non-profit targeting \"education\". In Musk\'s case they never made a profit at $35,000 and now you have to spend something like $45,000 for an entry level car. The rPi is a lot more than $25 now. I see a model for $75. Yup, they took a page out of Elon Musk\'s playbook.
If the same was
done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made
and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux
and other OS.
There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based
systems for price or power. It\'s probably not impossible, but basic ARM
cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated
by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.
So you have the details that show this to be the case for the Vortex86?
Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess
people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even
on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded
cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be
useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still
embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).
You don\'t know what the market is for a small Windows machine. It has the one humongous advantage of not having to learn Linux. I know a guy who uses a complete small form factor PC for similar things as an rPi would be used for by others, complete with a 23 inch monitor and keyboard. He just likes the convenience of the interface, since that\'s what is used by 99% of people who aren\'t geeks.
but 32bit windows is going the way of the dinosaurs, afaik OEMs have not been able to get windows in 32 bit for few years, and win11 is 64bit only
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi.
True.
There\'s nothing magical about
the ARM processors they are built on.
True.
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big
manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.
You are thinking like a geek. Windows is not for geeks. Maybe, if you try hard enough, you can think like a person who isn\'t a geek. It is not always about which is the \"better\" product. Beta was a better video tape format, but VHS was the one we ended up using.
but who other that someone needing to run some prehistoric 32 bit x86 application in some kind of embedded device has any use for a 486?
Hey, I can run DosBox on my phone!
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
L
Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Guest
onsdag den 9. marts 2022 kl. 19.41.57 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
but you don\'t need an actual x86 for that
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 9. marts 2022 kl. 18.35.59 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:43:46 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
On 09/03/2022 16:39, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje
wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days, so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in. Quad core each. The
latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot,
analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded
systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7
here.
All sorts of oen source software Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc
:-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a
lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs
up the cost.
Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper
embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.
Ah, so you agree. It\'s nice for people to support once in a while rather than always arguing.
The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was
thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit.
Yes, that\'s how it started. Then it took off, and it is
self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks
behind it try to make a significant profit.)
Didn\'t say they were. My point is there\'s not a lot of opportunity to compete given the cost and risk of ramping up a similar project. What made the rPi a success was the Musk approach of announcing a price point that was not sustainable by a for-profit company and barely was a breakeven for a non-profit, in addition to the publicity from being a non-profit targeting \"education\". In Musk\'s case they never made a profit at $35,000 and now you have to spend something like $45,000 for an entry level car. The rPi is a lot more than $25 now. I see a model for $75. Yup, they took a page out of Elon Musk\'s playbook.
If the same was
done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made
and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux
and other OS.
There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based
systems for price or power. It\'s probably not impossible, but basic ARM
cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated
by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.
So you have the details that show this to be the case for the Vortex86?
Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess
people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even
on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded
cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be
useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still
embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).
You don\'t know what the market is for a small Windows machine. It has the one humongous advantage of not having to learn Linux. I know a guy who uses a complete small form factor PC for similar things as an rPi would be used for by others, complete with a 23 inch monitor and keyboard. He just likes the convenience of the interface, since that\'s what is used by 99% of people who aren\'t geeks.
but 32bit windows is going the way of the dinosaurs, afaik OEMs have not been able to get windows in 32 bit for few years, and win11 is 64bit only
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi.
True.
There\'s nothing magical about
the ARM processors they are built on.
True.
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big
manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.
You are thinking like a geek. Windows is not for geeks. Maybe, if you try hard enough, you can think like a person who isn\'t a geek. It is not always about which is the \"better\" product. Beta was a better video tape format, but VHS was the one we ended up using.
but who other that someone needing to run some prehistoric 32 bit x86 application in some kind of embedded device has any use for a 486?
Hey, I can run DosBox on my phone!
but you don\'t need an actual x86 for that
J
Jan Panteltje
Guest
On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Mar 2022 07:39:36 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<ee216fe6-b723-4450-aaca-b77651628f9bn@googlegroups.com>:
For starters my RPI 4s runs at 1.5 GHz clock maximum, 50% more than that thing:
# lscpu
Architecture: armv7l
Byte Order: Little Endian
CPU(s): 4
On-line CPU(s) list: 0-3
Thread(s) per core: 1
Core(s) per socket: 4
Socket(s): 1
Vendor ID: ARM
Model: 3
Model name: Cortex-A72
Stepping: r0p3
CPU max MHz: 1500.0000
CPU min MHz: 600.0000
Raspis can run that MS OS or so I\'ve heard:
https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-raspberry-pi
And X86 is not exactly a very clean architecture.
Well it is a very good processer architecture.
Also has a lot of on board hardware that you can do fun things with:
FM radio transmitter:
https://circuitdigest.com/microcontroller-projects/raspberry-pi-fm-transmitter
Square wave signal generator software for the Raspberry Pi version B,
frequency range from about 150 kHz to 500 MHz,
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
What\'s inherent is that standards change very often so you have to buy new stuff
before the old stuff breaks down.
Like phones for example.
All that said I have now 5 raspis, 4 are on right now, 3 on 24/7, one works as router with a 4G USB stick.
Plus a laptop that did see hundreds of lines of C code written to one of those raspis today
to get X to do what I want:
http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_menu.gif
same font directly to X buffer, just added a double width double height option.
Raspi, HDMI out, or in this case via ssh to my laptop.
Competely bypass XLib
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<ee216fe6-b723-4450-aaca-b77651628f9bn@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 3:07:16 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi_7....@fx39.iad>:
Who hasn\'t wanted a 1 GHz dual-core 486 that supports DDR3?
https://www.vortex86.com/products
(no financial affiliation)
I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days,
so far so good.
Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in.
Quad core each.
The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.
Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot, analog audio
out,
USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration
PC is dead
There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7 here.
All sorts of oen source software
Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)
Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a lot of
problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs up the cost.
The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was thrown at it with no
expectation of making a profit. If the same was done with these devices I
expect a lower cost device could be made and would become popular because
of running Windows as well as Linux and other OS.
For starters my RPI 4s runs at 1.5 GHz clock maximum, 50% more than that thing:
# lscpu
Architecture: armv7l
Byte Order: Little Endian
CPU(s): 4
On-line CPU(s) list: 0-3
Thread(s) per core: 1
Core(s) per socket: 4
Socket(s): 1
Vendor ID: ARM
Model: 3
Model name: Cortex-A72
Stepping: r0p3
CPU max MHz: 1500.0000
CPU min MHz: 600.0000
Raspis can run that MS OS or so I\'ve heard:
https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-raspberry-pi
And X86 is not exactly a very clean architecture.
There\'s nothing magical about the rPi. There\'s nothing magical about the ARM
processors they are built on.
Well it is a very good processer architecture.
Also has a lot of on board hardware that you can do fun things with:
FM radio transmitter:
https://circuitdigest.com/microcontroller-projects/raspberry-pi-fm-transmitter
Square wave signal generator software for the Raspberry Pi version B,
frequency range from about 150 kHz to 500 MHz,
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
Most electronics is reliable. You actually
have to work pretty hard to design non-power electronics that isn\'t reliable.
It\'s inherent in the nature of electronics these days.
What\'s inherent is that standards change very often so you have to buy new stuff
before the old stuff breaks down.
Like phones for example.
All that said I have now 5 raspis, 4 are on right now, 3 on 24/7, one works as router with a 4G USB stick.
Plus a laptop that did see hundreds of lines of C code written to one of those raspis today
to get X to do what I want:
http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_menu.gif
same font directly to X buffer, just added a double width double height option.
Raspi, HDMI out, or in this case via ssh to my laptop.
Competely bypass XLib
D
David Brown
Guest
On 09/03/2022 18:29, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
You must be thinking of something other than
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)>. The PowerPC ISA
has many good points - low cost and low power are not amongst them. The
Cell was a very specialist kind of chip, and very different from the
general-purpose systems-on-a-chip under discussion.
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote in
news:t0alfn$rru$1@dont-email.me:
Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the
big manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the
one to watch.
They should have continued developing and upgrading the Cell
processor, but that was doomed by the fact that multiple companies were
involved who were long time competitors with each other.
But it was a hell of a CPU, and little lab sized super computers were
even made from it using game consoles, so it was pretty robsut for it\'s
day and could have easily scaled up to beat Intel or AMD\'s crap.
You must be thinking of something other than
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)>. The PowerPC ISA
has many good points - low cost and low power are not amongst them. The
Cell was a very specialist kind of chip, and very different from the
general-purpose systems-on-a-chip under discussion.