MiniCircuits kits...

[John Larkin]

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

I also noticed that their LTCC lowpass filters now come in low
frequencies, MHz and not just GHz.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:51:36 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-11 13:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:56:19 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl683$k9q$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened
Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic
problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for
components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission
lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used
with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can
be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

In those vintage circuits did you see any minicircuits like stuff?
Max frequency was?


We were talking about mini Circuits RF gain blocks, easy to throw
together. There\'s nothing silly about that. You brought up scope Y
amplifiers, which have a completely different purpose and a completely
different architecture. Now what was your point, exactly?

Jeroen Belleman

The main issue with most of MCL\'s packaged amps is that their gain rolls
off steadily. Put a few in series with no peaking networks, and the
results can be very disappointing.

I\'ve used RFBay for higher-performance things, with excellent results at
good prices.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Do they sell ICs, or just boxes?

Boxes AFAIK.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-11-11 19:18, Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:51:36 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-11 13:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:56:19 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl683$k9q$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened
Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic
problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for
components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission
lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used
with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can
be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

In those vintage circuits did you see any minicircuits like stuff?
Max frequency was?


We were talking about mini Circuits RF gain blocks, easy to throw
together. There\'s nothing silly about that. You brought up scope Y
amplifiers, which have a completely different purpose and a completely
different architecture. Now what was your point, exactly?

Jeroen Belleman

The main issue with most of MCL\'s packaged amps is that their gain rolls
off steadily. Put a few in series with no peaking networks, and the
results can be very disappointing.

I\'ve used RFBay for higher-performance things, with excellent results at
good prices.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Do they sell ICs, or just boxes?


Boxes AFAIK.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

They had a series of bare MMICs too, tiny pucks with four leads sticking
out at right angles. Easy to use, but as Phil said, they did have a tendency
to gently roll off the gain with increasing frequency, though much gentler
than 1st order. They ran very hot too.

They\'re still there: ERA-something.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:37:18 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<imevmh1hgpqockarbq6ca5jmeso9laai3s@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 05:35:50 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
in fact magnetic deflection vertical raster scan.

Oh I agree with you, but then..
I still have - and use my old Trio / Kenwood 10 MHz dual channel scope.
Bought it in about 1979... Was the tool in my repair shop for many years..
Now there is quality,, Do not need more as these days a simple RTL_SDR stick
used as spectrum analyzer gives me all I need including GPS frequencies.. .1.6 GHz is my sticks limit
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
but have a down-converter for 2.4 GHz etc...
But for fun sure you can integrate anything
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
and use software...
You are more of a pulse - watcher right?

Mostly pulses, but some low-level analog and of course a lot of power
supplies for everything. Low jitter pulse generation is essentially an
analog design problem. Electro-optics is mostly analog too.

Signal averaging is wonderful, especially in a high EMI location like
ours. Color storage is great; when I get a nice waveform I can freeze
it, add a post-it note, and take a picture.

I just click my Canon camera...
Put its SDcard into laptop, type \'send it\' script to my website..

well if it is repetitive it is just RF and you can monitor the spectrum,

And then, cars cannot be sold as the chips are not available,
same for other chips needing stuff...

We need GHz PCs now to read f*cking Microsoft email...

And you have to keep relearning the interface and working around the
ever-changing bugs.

They seem to have just fixed the email search/drag/drop bug after
about 5 years. In another 5 maybe they will fix the
typing-where-I-dont-want-to-type bug.


(Godaddy, my website hosting company) moved to Microsoft mail, no more pop email!

We used to use pop and Thunderbird, and someone moved us to Outlook
webmail. It\'s awful. But having the same stuff from multiple PCs is
good.

Yes, \'outlook\'; imagine they accuse Huawei of spying for China
but \'outlook\' now has the data from everybody on their servers, unencrypted at that
and given microsoft works with US DOD (remember that war ship that froze?) US
is spying on everything and everyone.

I am considering sending my messages via satellite^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H snail mail encrypted by my own
designed method, for example \'attack whitehouse at noon\' now reads: \'blurp\',
or in smake signs: O o o O O 0 0
They will never crack that code.

Good thing in all this is I got my gmail working again, at least google does something useful for humanity
they can have my data? (and youtube videos if my site goes down).

Few days ago I got an other flyer from the glasfiber club,
they say they now have enough subscribers here to dig up the street and put their fibers there,
they say that if I subscribe now they will make the connection to the house for free,
if not it cost me 350 dollars if I decide I want it later,...

So I will stay with wireless 4G for now.... Cheaper too and works everywhere.
But for the next microsoft email version I would likely need fiber....

Will archaeologists dig up our cellphones and wonder \'hoe did they ever do that in the 21 first century?
Or some alien species lands here and looks at what we left behind.. While the mosquitos remained...


Life will be interesting 1000 years from now. And 10,000.

I was just reading Colorado now allows magic mushrooms...
//
Would using it improve designs?
where it will go.....
?

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:17:52 -0500) it happened John S
<Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote in <tkoo0n$15tfc$1@dont-email.me>:

What Jan needs is a time machine to go back and enjoy working in the
electronics so important to him.

TRY SOMETHING LIKE THIS WISE GUY:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
http://panteltje.com/pub/ADF4350_via_mixer_2.4GHz_dBc_R820_tuner_fractional_all.gif
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
write the software, build the hardware.
OK, those are very old versions of course on my site

Now show us something YOU did and made available to humanity for free
else shut up and learn

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-11-11 19:18, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:51:36 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-11 13:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:56:19 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl683$k9q$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened
Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B


It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic
problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for
components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission
lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently
used
with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that
can
be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting,
but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

In those vintage circuits did you see any minicircuits like stuff?
Max frequency was?


We were talking about mini Circuits RF gain blocks, easy to throw
together. There\'s nothing silly about that. You brought up scope Y
amplifiers, which have a completely different purpose and a completely
different architecture. Now what was your point, exactly?

Jeroen Belleman

The main issue with most of MCL\'s packaged amps is that their gain
rolls
off steadily.  Put a few in series with no peaking networks, and the
results can be very disappointing.

I\'ve used RFBay for higher-performance things, with excellent
results at
good prices.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Do they sell ICs, or just boxes?


Boxes AFAIK.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


They had a series of bare MMICs too, tiny pucks with four leads sticking
out at right angles. Easy to use, but as Phil said, they did have a
tendency
to gently roll off the gain with increasing frequency, though much gentler
than 1st order. They ran very hot too.

They\'re still there: ERA-something.

Jeroen Belleman

I was talking about RFBay. Mini Circuits makes lots of MMIC amps too.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John S]

On 11/13/2022 12:23 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:17:52 -0500) it happened John S
Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote in <tkoo0n$15tfc$1@dont-email.me>:

What Jan needs is a time machine to go back and enjoy working in the
electronics so important to him.

TRY SOMETHING LIKE THIS WISE GUY:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
http://panteltje.com/pub/ADF4350_via_mixer_2.4GHz_dBc_R820_tuner_fractional_all.gif
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
write the software, build the hardware.
OK, those are very old versions of course on my site

Now show us something YOU did and made available to humanity for free
else shut up and learn

I not wise. And I\'m not obligated to show you anything. I\'m also not
obligated to \"shut up\" and I doubt that you could teach anything new and
useful that I could bring to market. I tinker only with designs that are
to be manufactured by my company.

But I applaud your efforts to teach. You should improve your teaching by
making readable schematics, though.


--
Dogs make me happy. Humans make my head hurt.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 21:06:45 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-11-11 19:18, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:51:36 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-11 13:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:56:19 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl683$k9q$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened
Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic
problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for
components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission
lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used
with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can
be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

In those vintage circuits did you see any minicircuits like stuff?
Max frequency was?


We were talking about mini Circuits RF gain blocks, easy to throw
together. There\'s nothing silly about that. You brought up scope Y
amplifiers, which have a completely different purpose and a completely
different architecture. Now what was your point, exactly?

Jeroen Belleman

The main issue with most of MCL\'s packaged amps is that their gain rolls
off steadily. Put a few in series with no peaking networks, and the
results can be very disappointing.

I\'ve used RFBay for higher-performance things, with excellent results at
good prices.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Do they sell ICs, or just boxes?


Boxes AFAIK.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


They had a series of bare MMICs too, tiny pucks with four leads sticking
out at right angles. Easy to use, but as Phil said, they did have a tendency
to gently roll off the gain with increasing frequency, though much gentler
than 1st order. They ran very hot too.

They\'re still there: ERA-something.

The ERAs are older darlington mmic parts. I like them because they
don\'t have an internal bias loop like most of the newer parts. The
bias controllers wreck the low frequency response, which the graphs
conveniently hide.

Jeroen Belleman

Somebody, can\'t recall who, makes MMICS with a positive gain/freq
slope. That could be handy to cancel trace losses or whatever.

We recently did a project with some EHC-24\'s, 20 GHz mmic, +-1 dB to
10 GHz. Nice pulse response.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Nov 2022 05:53:01 -0500) it happened John S
<Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote in <tkqiad$1ecgr$1@dont-email.me>:

>Dogs make me happy.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:41:05 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened John
Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic
problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for
components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission
lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used
with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can
be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

Jeroen Belleman

They make it fast and fix up the impulse response afterwards.
Interleaving many ADCs always makes a huge mess.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Given unlimited DSP resources, the analog design needs bandwidth but
can be arbitrarily hideous. That changes ones\' design approach
entirely.

Deconvolution!

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:41:05 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened Jeroen
Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened John
Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened
John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic
problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for
components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission
lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used
with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can
be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

Jeroen Belleman

They make it fast and fix up the impulse response afterwards.
Interleaving many ADCs always makes a huge mess.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Given unlimited DSP resources, the analog design needs bandwidth but
can be arbitrarily hideous. That changes ones\' design approach
entirely.

Deconvolution!

Assuming the SNR survives. For scopes, it generally does, to a
point--your average superfast scope has 6-7 ENOB anyway.

I just wish they\'d dork it into a Gaussian step response like an actual
_oscilloscope_, rather than the sorts of peaky overshooting messes I\'ve
seen in the last 15 years or so.

A sad day for me, from a technical POV, was when I had to explain to a
bunch of _Tektronix factory engineers_ that a scope lives and dies by
its step response.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:53:04 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<g0rsmh5vkni0h712uvc36tm1lvpnbro3nd@4ax.com>:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:27:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:14:56 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkllcv$1juo$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 13:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:56:19 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl683$k9q$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B
It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

In those vintage circuits did you see any minicircuits like stuff?
Max frequency was?


We were talking about mini Circuits RF gain blocks, easy to throw
together. There\'s nothing silly about that. You brought up scope Y
amplifiers, which have a completely different purpose and a completely
different architecture. Now what was your point, exactly?

Well twist all the way you want, you said:
it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz bandwidths

Bit decent analog (call it \'vintage if you like) scope vertical amps do that WITHOUT silly secret blocks
and with discrete components, most of those still available today.

Vertical amps now just feed an ADC. They don\'t need to drive a delay
line and swing a hundred volts into deflection plates.

The last-gen Tek analog scopes were full of full-custom ICs in the
vertical path. Both of Jim Williams\' analog circuit design books have
chapters about Tek scope amps.

I can lift my 500 MHz 4-channel color storage scope with one hand, and
it barely runs warm. It does pretrigger display, signal averaging,
measurements, FFTs, and I haven\'t replaced a tube yet.


I remember in the early seventies \'Elektuur\' (think it is \'Elector\' now) published the V amp for a 300 MHz Tek
analog scope, it used BFY90 IIRC, I immediately went to work and build it, to drive my 300 MHz East German CRT,,,
Much later when I worked for Tek I met the guy who gave Elektuur that circuit, he got quite a bit of head wind
he told me because he published that circuit...
BFY90 is still available (ebay)... 42 years later,,,
There are many faster transistors now, same circuits should work,
Have a good look at those old circuits!

Opamps and mosfets would be great for a CRT-based scope, but it would
need an expensive distributed-deflection CRT to get the bandwidth of a
cheap modern digital scope.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/evoq6p2nvzyl6wo/547_crt.JPG?raw=1

I really don\'t miss tube scopes at all. Barbaric.

I love my 11802 sampler, but it\'s a digital scope with a CRT display,
in fact magnetic deflection vertical raster scan.

Oh I agree with you, but then..
I still have - and use my old Trio / Kenwood 10 MHz dual channel scope.
Bought it in about 1979... Was the tool in my repair shop for many years..
Now there is quality,, Do not need more as these days a simple RTL_SDR stick
used as spectrum analyzer gives me all I need including GPS frequencies.. .1.6 GHz is my sticks limit
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
but have a down-converter for 2.4 GHz etc...
But for fun sure you can integrate anything
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
and use software...
You are more of a pulse - watcher right?
well if it is repetitive it is just RF and you can monitor the spectrum,

And then, cars cannot be sold as the chips are not available,
same for other chips needing stuff...

We need GHz PCs now to read f*cking Microsoft email...
(Godaddy, my website hosting company) moved to Microsoft mail, no more pop email!
I have terminated auto-renewal so the site will move elsewhere around February,
that is if the Internet still exists (chips, nukes, politics).
Is is now more difficult to read messages than when I was online with a 75/300 Bd modem.
So where will it go?
Best to have some transistors around to do things, maybe even tubes...
Lots is now hype, sort of expect a big setback, human made climate change hype is like witch hunt was in medieval times,,,
Selling bloated software is the business way...

Will archaeologists dig up our cellphones and wonder \'hoe did they ever do that in the 21 first century?
Or some alien species lands here and looks at what we left behind.. While the mosquitos remained...

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.

MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic problem
in our business.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.

MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic problem
in our business.

Yeah, you can still get the SBL-1 mixer, which I used in my first
engineering job (1981-3).

And I agree that that pHEMT kit is super useful--I have one taped to the
inside of my binder of fast transistors that lives on the shelf above my
bench.

Nobody else (with the possible exception of Skyworks) still makes 6-GHz
discrete pHEMTs, so the lock-in problem is pretty well moot.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:23 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.

MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic problem
in our business.


Yeah, you can still get the SBL-1 mixer, which I used in my first
engineering job (1981-3).

And I agree that that pHEMT kit is super useful--I have one taped to the
inside of my binder of fast transistors that lives on the shelf above my
bench.

Nobody else (with the possible exception of Skyworks) still makes 6-GHz
discrete pHEMTs, so the lock-in problem is pretty well moot.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I love the SAV parts. Enhancement mode makes it easy to drive the gate
from CMOS logic and then the drain switches stuff fast.

SAV-541 has Rds-on about 2 ohms. Why don\'t RF data sheets specify
Rds-on?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/syrlu9ilecpq3o5/All_Mini_Circuits.jpg?raw=1

 

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 11.11.22 um 00:10 schrieb Phil Hobbs:

And I agree that that pHEMT kit is super useful--I have one taped to the
inside of my binder of fast transistors that lives on the shelf above my
bench.

Nobody else (with the possible exception of Skyworks) still makes 6-GHz
discrete pHEMTs, so the lock-in problem is pretty well moot.

At least interesting: CE3512K2 by CEL;
There is a 20 GHz version, too: CE3520K3
AT least they survive Idss.

If you need a little bit of negative gate voltage:
Vishay VOM1271 and friends. No switcher noise.

Cheers, Gerhard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:23 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B

It will make you very depending on their products.

MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic problem
in our business.


Yeah, you can still get the SBL-1 mixer, which I used in my first
engineering job (1981-3).

And I agree that that pHEMT kit is super useful--I have one taped to the
inside of my binder of fast transistors that lives on the shelf above my
bench.

Nobody else (with the possible exception of Skyworks) still makes 6-GHz
discrete pHEMTs, so the lock-in problem is pretty well moot.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I love the SAV parts. Enhancement mode makes it easy to drive the gate
from CMOS logic and then the drain switches stuff fast.

SAV-541 has Rds-on about 2 ohms. Why don\'t RF data sheets specify
Rds-on?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/syrlu9ilecpq3o5/All_Mini_Circuits.jpg?raw=1

They don\'t know what ON and OFF mean.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 11.11.22 um 00:10 schrieb Phil Hobbs:

And I agree that that pHEMT kit is super useful--I have one taped to
the inside of my binder of fast transistors that lives on the shelf
above my bench.

Nobody else (with the possible exception of Skyworks) still makes
6-GHz discrete pHEMTs, so the lock-in problem is pretty well moot.

At least interesting:  CE3512K2 by CEL;
There is a 20 GHz version, too: CE3520K3
AT least they survive Idss.

If you need a little bit of negative gate voltage:
Vishay VOM1271 and friends. No switcher noise.

Cheers, Gerhard

I have some of the 20-GHz parts, but haven\'t ever tried using them.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 05:35:50 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:53:04 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
g0rsmh5vkni0h712uvc36tm1lvpnbro3nd@4ax.com>:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:27:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:14:56 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkllcv$1juo$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 13:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:56:19 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl683$k9q$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 2022-11-11 09:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:14:16 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkl08o$394$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:24:45 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <tkktbt$v5s$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:07:11 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
ntpqmhlvkuahf6tu96bhffdrv0ci4t6d9k@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:10:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:49:15 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
49eqmhpf0j56bojsvnh3frftvam9h3kg1l@4ax.com>:

They have some interesting stuff.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=K1-SAV_TAV%2B
It will make you very depending on their products.
MiniCircuits has been pretty good. Parts lifetime is a chronic problem
in our business.
Sure, but in my time we needed at least one second source for components we used.
Mil would require that too over there?

An other thing that makes me wonder is the 50 Ohm issue
At 1 GHz the wavelength is 30 cm
If this was to sort of \'appeal to people to
just chaining blocks together on a PCB with 50 Ohm transmission lines in between\'
then its silly.

In many of not most cases the parts can be more efficiently used with a different coupling impedance
when a few mm apart even more so.
Then it is RC times or LC[R] coupling (thinking RF now) that can be optimized.
Done it many times .
So who is it for, the RF clueless?

No, it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz
bandwidths.

Jeroen Belleman

Ever looked at the Y amplifiers of a modern GHz scope?

Not in detail, no. How do they do it?

Jeroen Belleman

Google tektronics circuit diagram


Lots of vintage circuits, which I *did* see before. Interesting, but not
modern. Can you be a more specific?

In those vintage circuits did you see any minicircuits like stuff?
Max frequency was?


We were talking about mini Circuits RF gain blocks, easy to throw
together. There\'s nothing silly about that. You brought up scope Y
amplifiers, which have a completely different purpose and a completely
different architecture. Now what was your point, exactly?

Well twist all the way you want, you said:
it\'s for broadband amplifiers, (near) constant gain over GHz bandwidths

Bit decent analog (call it \'vintage if you like) scope vertical amps do that WITHOUT silly secret blocks
and with discrete components, most of those still available today.

Vertical amps now just feed an ADC. They don\'t need to drive a delay
line and swing a hundred volts into deflection plates.

The last-gen Tek analog scopes were full of full-custom ICs in the
vertical path. Both of Jim Williams\' analog circuit design books have
chapters about Tek scope amps.

I can lift my 500 MHz 4-channel color storage scope with one hand, and
it barely runs warm. It does pretrigger display, signal averaging,
measurements, FFTs, and I haven\'t replaced a tube yet.


I remember in the early seventies \'Elektuur\' (think it is \'Elector\' now) published the V amp for a 300 MHz Tek
analog scope, it used BFY90 IIRC, I immediately went to work and build it, to drive my 300 MHz East German CRT,,,
Much later when I worked for Tek I met the guy who gave Elektuur that circuit, he got quite a bit of head wind
he told me because he published that circuit...
BFY90 is still available (ebay)... 42 years later,,,
There are many faster transistors now, same circuits should work,
Have a good look at those old circuits!

Opamps and mosfets would be great for a CRT-based scope, but it would
need an expensive distributed-deflection CRT to get the bandwidth of a
cheap modern digital scope.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/evoq6p2nvzyl6wo/547_crt.JPG?raw=1

I really don\'t miss tube scopes at all. Barbaric.

I love my 11802 sampler, but it\'s a digital scope with a CRT display,
in fact magnetic deflection vertical raster scan.

Oh I agree with you, but then..
I still have - and use my old Trio / Kenwood 10 MHz dual channel scope.
Bought it in about 1979... Was the tool in my repair shop for many years..
Now there is quality,, Do not need more as these days a simple RTL_SDR stick
used as spectrum analyzer gives me all I need including GPS frequencies.. .1.6 GHz is my sticks limit
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
but have a down-converter for 2.4 GHz etc...
But for fun sure you can integrate anything
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
and use software...
You are more of a pulse - watcher right?

Mostly pulses, but some low-level analog and of course a lot of power
supplies for everything. Low jitter pulse generation is essentially an
analog design problem. Electro-optics is mostly analog too.

Signal averaging is wonderful, especially in a high EMI location like
ours. Color storage is great; when I get a nice waveform I can freeze
it, add a post-it note, and take a picture.

well if it is repetitive it is just RF and you can monitor the spectrum,

And then, cars cannot be sold as the chips are not available,
same for other chips needing stuff...

We need GHz PCs now to read f*cking Microsoft email...

And you have to keep relearning the interface and working around the
ever-changing bugs.

They seem to have just fixed the email search/drag/drop bug after
about 5 years. In another 5 maybe they will fix the
typing-where-I-dont-want-to-type bug.


>(Godaddy, my website hosting company) moved to Microsoft mail, no more pop email!

We used to use pop and Thunderbird, and someone moved us to Outlook
webmail. It\'s awful. But having the same stuff from multiple PCs is
good.

I have terminated auto-renewal so the site will move elsewhere around February,
that is if the Internet still exists (chips, nukes, politics).
Is is now more difficult to read messages than when I was online with a 75/300 Bd modem.
So where will it go?
Best to have some transistors around to do things, maybe even tubes...
Lots is now hype, sort of expect a big setback, human made climate change hype is like witch hunt was in medieval times,,,
Selling bloated software is the business way...

Will archaeologists dig up our cellphones and wonder \'hoe did they ever do that in the 21 first century?
Or some alien species lands here and looks at what we left behind.. While the mosquitos remained...
[/quote]

Life will be interesting 1000 years from now. And 10,000.