MessageView 421F schematic

[hanson]

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4020B28F.AF8AB72C@earthlink.net...

hanson wrote:

"Paul Cardinale" <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:64050551.0402030707.69ebe377@posting.google.com...
"Piotr ne" <piotrn12e@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
most light bulbs have an estimated lifetime, specified
for some standard conditions - environment temperature
and supply voltage. Does anybody know, how does
the lifetime change with the supply voltage? E.g. if a bulb
should work about 1000 hrs. at 220 V, what would be the
estimated lifetime at 230 V? Is it possible to give
a rough estimation?
Regards, Piotr

Bulb life is approximately proportional to Voltage^(-12).
So the answer to your specific question is:
Life = 1000 * (230/220)^(-12) = 587 hours.
Paul Cardinale

Is this an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?
hanson

I believe that relationship is grossly incorrect.
The lifetime VS percentage of supply voltage is a nasty power law; a
small percentage change in excitation voltage makes rather large changes
in the lifetime.
Use M=1.145^(100-D) where D is the percentage of design voltage that
is applied, and M is the lamp life multiplier.

Is this also an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?

Also, one must consider vibration from all sources, *including* that
induced by the filaments own magnetic field acting on itself - meaning
an AC supply will cause a much shorter life as compared to a DC supply.

 

[Paul Cardinale]

Robert Baer <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<4020B28F.AF8AB72C@earthlink.net>...

hanson wrote:

"Paul Cardinale" <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:64050551.0402030707.69ebe377@posting.google.com...
"Piotr ne" <piotrn12e@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
most light bulbs have an estimated lifetime, specified
for some standard conditions - environment temperature
and supply voltage. Does anybody know, how does
the lifetime change with the supply voltage? E.g. if a bulb
should work about 1000 hrs. at 220 V, what would be the
estimated lifetime at 230 V? Is it possible to give
a rough estimation?
Regards, Piotr

Bulb life is approximately proportional to Voltage^(-12).
So the answer to your specific question is:
Life = 1000 * (230/220)^(-12) = 587 hours.
Paul Cardinale

Is this an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?
hanson

I believe that relationship is grossly incorrect.

Why? It's probably an approximation that's valid over a limited
range.

The lifetime VS percentage of supply voltage is a nasty power law; a
small percentage change in excitation voltage makes rather large changes
in the lifetime.
Use M=1.145^(100-D) where D is the percentage of design voltage that
is applied, and M is the lamp life multiplier.

Where did you get that formula?

Also, one must consider vibration from all sources, *including* that
induced by the filaments own magnetic field acting on itself - meaning
an AC supply will cause a much shorter life as compared to a DC supply.

I believe that most of the vibration of an AC driven filament is due
to thermal effects rather than magnetic effects. Also, what you say
about DC is valid only for filtered DC; those devices for extending
lamp life are just diodes; the unfiltered DC still causes vibration of
the filiment.

Paul Cardinale

 

[Robert Baer]

hanson wrote:

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4020B28F.AF8AB72C@earthlink.net...
hanson wrote:

"Paul Cardinale" <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:64050551.0402030707.69ebe377@posting.google.com...
"Piotr ne" <piotrn12e@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
most light bulbs have an estimated lifetime, specified
for some standard conditions - environment temperature
and supply voltage. Does anybody know, how does
the lifetime change with the supply voltage? E.g. if a bulb
should work about 1000 hrs. at 220 V, what would be the
estimated lifetime at 230 V? Is it possible to give
a rough estimation?
Regards, Piotr

Bulb life is approximately proportional to Voltage^(-12).
So the answer to your specific question is:
Life = 1000 * (230/220)^(-12) = 587 hours.
Paul Cardinale

Is this an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?
hanson

I believe that relationship is grossly incorrect.
The lifetime VS percentage of supply voltage is a nasty power law; a
small percentage change in excitation voltage makes rather large changes
in the lifetime.
Use M=1.145^(100-D) where D is the percentage of design voltage that
is applied, and M is the lamp life multiplier.


Is this also an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?

Also, one must consider vibration from all sources, *including* that
induced by the filaments own magnetic field acting on itself - meaning
an AC supply will cause a much shorter life as compared to a DC supply.

As far as i know, nobody bothered to do a theoretical derivation.
If the filament was a straight line wire, perhaps it could be done,
but since most are coiled or double-coiled, then simplifications would
make any derivations incorrect.
A starter to try a derivation would be the filament temperature as a
function of power input; one would have to model the cooling by the
internal gas that was added, along with the envelope cooling (horizontal
or vertical, shape, size, external temperature).
Just that part ain't symple.
Then add in the mass loss due to the boiling off of the tungsten as a
function of temperature; this is part of the degradation of the filament
which shortens its life.
That is where the filament geometry (straight, coiled, etc) comes in.
If AC is used, one then must know the frequency and current; add in
the filament shape for structural analysis along with magnetic
interactions to derive vibrational stresses - the other part of the
degradation of the filament which shortens its life.
That ain't symple either.
And i may have left out other important parts.
So you see why empirical equations are used.

 

[Robert Baer]

Paul Cardinale wrote:

Robert Baer <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<4020B28F.AF8AB72C@earthlink.net>...
hanson wrote:

"Paul Cardinale" <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:64050551.0402030707.69ebe377@posting.google.com...
"Piotr ne" <piotrn12e@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
most light bulbs have an estimated lifetime, specified
for some standard conditions - environment temperature
and supply voltage. Does anybody know, how does
the lifetime change with the supply voltage? E.g. if a bulb
should work about 1000 hrs. at 220 V, what would be the
estimated lifetime at 230 V? Is it possible to give
a rough estimation?
Regards, Piotr

Bulb life is approximately proportional to Voltage^(-12).
So the answer to your specific question is:
Life = 1000 * (230/220)^(-12) = 587 hours.
Paul Cardinale

Is this an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?
hanson

I believe that relationship is grossly incorrect.

Why? It's probably an approximation that's valid over a limited
range.

The lifetime VS percentage of supply voltage is a nasty power law; a
small percentage change in excitation voltage makes rather large changes
in the lifetime.
Use M=1.145^(100-D) where D is the percentage of design voltage that
is applied, and M is the lamp life multiplier.


Where did you get that formula?

Also, one must consider vibration from all sources, *including* that
induced by the filaments own magnetic field acting on itself - meaning
an AC supply will cause a much shorter life as compared to a DC supply.

I believe that most of the vibration of an AC driven filament is due
to thermal effects rather than magnetic effects. Also, what you say
about DC is valid only for filtered DC; those devices for extending
lamp life are just diodes; the unfiltered DC still causes vibration of
the filiment.

Paul Cardinale

Use of a diode increases the vibrational stresses, but the average
power applied is less, so the temperature goes down, giving a longer net
life.
If one compares that life with the same lamp driven by pure DC at the
same total average power, then the diode driven lamp would always die
first, and the lifetime might be considered unacceptable in light of the
life achieved from the DC driven lamp.
The vibration is due to both magnetic and thermal effects, but i think
the magnetic effects dominate.

 

[hanson]

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4021FBC4.488D1A9F@earthlink.net...

hanson wrote:
"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
hanson wrote:
"Paul Cardinale" <pcardinale@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
"Piotr ne" <piotrn12e@poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
most light bulbs have an estimated lifetime, specified
for some standard conditions - environment temperature
and supply voltage. Does anybody know, how does
the lifetime change with the supply voltage? E.g. if a bulb
should work about 1000 hrs. at 220 V, what would be the
estimated lifetime at 230 V? Is it possible to give
a rough estimation?
Regards, Piotr

Bulb life is approximately proportional to Voltage^(-12).
So the answer to your specific question is:
Life = 1000 * (230/220)^(-12) = 587 hours.
Paul Cardinale

Is this an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?
hanson

I believe that relationship is grossly incorrect.
The lifetime VS percentage of supply voltage is a
nasty power law; a small percentage change in excitation
voltage makes rather large changes in the lifetime.
Use M=1.145^(100-D) where D is the percentage of design
voltage that is applied, and M is the lamp life multiplier.
Also, one must consider vibration from all sources,
*including* that induced by the filaments own magnetic field
acting on itself - meaning an AC supply will cause a much
shorter life as compared to a DC supply

Is this also an empirical equation from tabulated xps,
or is there a theoretical derivation to this?

As far as i know, nobody bothered to do a theoretical derivation.
If the filament was a straight line wire, perhaps it could be done,
but since most are coiled or double-coiled, then simplifications would
make any derivations incorrect.
A starter to try a derivation would be the filament temperature as a
function of power input; one would have to model the cooling by the
internal gas that was added, along with the envelope cooling (horizontal
or vertical, shape, size, external temperature).
Just that part ain't symple.
Then add in the mass loss due to the boiling off of the tungsten as a
function of temperature; this is part of the degradation of the filament
which shortens its life.
That is where the filament geometry (straight, coiled, etc) comes in.
If AC is used, one then must know the frequency and current; add in
the filament shape for structural analysis along with magnetic
interactions to derive vibrational stresses - the other part of the
degradation of the filament which shortens its life.
That ain't symple either.
And i may have left out other important parts.
So you see why empirical equations are used.


Thanks a lot for your thoughts, Robert. Very nice.

I am inclined to believe that the reason that nobody has tackled
with this from the theoretical aspect, and the fact that the two given
empirical equations show such a different picture as in
Life (hrs) = 1000 * (230V/220V)^(-12), and M=1.145^(100-D)
may point towards a very different issue and cause that governs and
determines the filament's life time.

Tungsten is a very brittle metal. So, when it gets extruded into
the familiar spiral filament form it will not be a smooth and uniform
wire shape as when you were do the same from/with Copper or Silver.
The W-filaments will have *micro* cracks. These micro cracks present
a different cross-section in the filament(wire), giving different resistances,
giving different temperatures, giving an avalanche effect.... and a single
one of these crack/imperfections is sufficient for the filament to burn
& blow at its largest crack and smallest cross section. So its use-life time
may primarily be governed by the production quality and smoothness
of the W-wire. Given such inherent uncertainties in the manufacturing
it is understandable that a theoretical treatment may be impossible.
hanson

 

[news2020]

< Clicking on the 'References' link in this post header will pull up my
post
in alt.binaries.pictures that shows the pictures.. >


news2020 wrote:

Pictures of two vehicles in my neighborhood that electrocuted me
today
:

The first car is an SUV owned by #1051 Mckay Dr.
The second one is a gardeners' truck and equipment carrier (Bill Adams

Landscaping).






ElectrocutingCar_1_0211041.jpg

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image/jpeg;

name="ElectrocutingCar_1_0211041.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
base64
Content-Disposition:
inline;

filename="ElectrocutingCar_1_0211041.jpg"





ElectrocutingCar_2_0211041.jpg

Content-Type:
image/jpeg;

name="ElectrocutingCar_2_0211041.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
base64
Content-Disposition:
inline;

filename="ElectrocutingCar_2_0211041.jpg"

 

[news2020]

Is it that bad in Everett, Washington State ?


Rick wrote:
Path:

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From:
"Rick" <rick@skyko.com>
Newsgroups:
sci.electronics.design
References:
<402ABAAF.D029BF7@peoplepc.com> <402ADDBB.FB2DB50C@peoplepc.com>
Subject:
Re: Reposting: Pictures of two vehicles that electrocuted me
today
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news2020 wrote:

Pictures of two vehicles in my neighborhood that electrocuted me
today
snip

electrocute

1) To kill with electricity
2) To execute by means of electricity

Suggest you go touch the cars again (maybe during a rainstorm?) so we can be rid
of your troll a**

 

[Product developer]

news2020 <user121@peoplepc.com> wrote in message news:<402BCE20.93CBFDE8@peoplepc.com>...

Is it that bad in Everett, Washington State ?


Rick wrote:
Path:

sn-us!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!78b02316!not-for-mail

From:
"Rick" <rick@skyko.com
Newsgroups:
sci.electronics.design
References:
402ABAAF.D029BF7@peoplepc.com> <402ADDBB.FB2DB50C@peoplepc.com
Subject:
Re: Reposting: Pictures of two vehicles that electrocuted me
today
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21:30:58 EST)
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Xref:
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news2020 wrote:

Pictures of two vehicles in my neighborhood that electrocuted me
today
snip

electrocute

1) To kill with electricity
2) To execute by means of electricity

Suggest you go touch the cars again (maybe during a rainstorm?) so we can be rid
of your troll a**

This is a covert CIA killer car protocol called project "Hot Wheels".
Cars are charged up and stalk unsuspecting pedestrians. If one
approaches you don't touch any metal parts.

Were you on the O.J. Jury a few years back?

 

[news2020]

RE:
< This is just to show that this post is relevant to the newsgroups posted
in !
To take care of another bunch of internet sickos who allowed the rape to
happen by blocking my internet connection (att) for over 6 months. They
have promised to connect everything back for $9.95 or something like that
but they have taken my order for long distance etc. but not reconnected
the internet service yet - trying to delay it or deny it ! I need it back. >

LASERS, ELECTROCUTION, CARS, SMALL PLANES, AWACS,
WIDE-BODIED PLANES, HELICOPTERS, ELECTROCUTION
EQUIPMENT INSTALLED IN ALL HOMES AND
COMPANIES/INDUSTRIAL PLANTS AROUND MY HOUSE,
LASERS STATIONED IN THE SKY ALL AROUND, etc.

SOMEONE IS REALLY SICKO -
Do Something To Expose These SICKOS !
--------------------------------------------

To fly small planes and fighters and huge AWACS planes and wide bodied
planes
over my house and shoot at me in my house while I sleep or do something
in my
house such as writing this piece is really reflective of VERY VERY sick
people !

The coward(s) who is(are) ordering the entire military force of the most
powerful nation
on earth to go and target a person such as myself must not be allowed to

continue this 2 1/2 years after my first police report about such
incidents and grave injuries that I have already suffered through

on a 24 hour basis so far.

EXPOSE THE COWARDS AND HIGH CRIMINALS.

Just now a fighter plane type of aircraft flew overhead of my house,

North-West to South-East and shot at the back of my head. All of last
night, I was electrocuted while I slept. By sparking equipment that
produced showers of sparks that went right through the head and
caused a prickly pain in the extemities whenever the shots hit me.
Powered from vehicles on the road and parking lots in Los Esteros
Apartments and houses nearby. They are also using electrocuting
equpment installed in my neighbors' houses. #1295 Vietnamese
man neighbor seems to be getting regular instructions and
participating in the electrocution by installing equipment for
remote control as well as actually aiming them whenever I
change sleeping locations, etc. #1291 killer seems to be the
co-ordinator for local killers. #1296 (SF Chinese),
#1298 (Jewish), #1290 (Taiwanese visa imports),
#1908 Beaufort (Chino Chinese) are closely involved with installed
lasers and electrocution sparking equipment and satellite
dishes, etc. #1051 McKay killer laser installed on the chimney was
shooting at my head last night. It is so powerful that it
goes through everything and it is pinpoint in accuracy !
I think the #1051 chimney laser was controlled by
#12/1035 McKay (Los Esteros)(Vietnamese Energy
Dept. Nuclear Laser Control Center ?) last night.

This is only a short description that does not cover
all electrocution that happened yesterday. For example
I was electrocuted continuously by lights and direct
beacon on my face while I attended a meeting last night.
Also, back home, a car from the parking lot of
Los Esteros was continously electrocuting with
boom-boom type electrocuting pulsations -
3USX195 Black Mercury Villager GS Van and
4NRH347 Black Chev Tracker SUV 'Billings' 'Milpitas'
have been observed participating in this electrocution.
An endless stream of vehicles, infinite resources
are being allocated to maintain the electrocution.

The description above is only a part of the electrocution
activity of yesterday and night. The evil is all around
and no one is able to do anything to expose these
high criminals and bring them to justice. Are all these
killer going to get away scot free ?

DO SOMETHING TO EXPOSE THESE SICKOS !

--------------------------------------------------

 

[Dr. Anton T. Squeegee]

In article <402E4DD4.DBFA5F02@peoplepc.com>, user121@peoplepc.com
says...

RE:
This is just to show that this post is relevant to the newsgroups posted
in !

<blatherectomy>

You know, I have to agree with your subject line completely.

Someone -is- really SICKO.

To see who, just look in any mirror. Once you're done with that,
please seek professional counseling.

*PLONK!*


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

 

[atec77]

Rod Speed wrote:

Rob <wjcomm@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:HYyXb.707$KW.42313@news.optus.net.au...

Im not sure if anyone answered my question from a few months back

Thats what groups.google is for.
reads as you don't have a clue but will try to bullshite again just to

look good ,
sad really

I missed the post But i have a marconi 2955 Testset and was wondering if
anyone new where i could get a Firmware upgrade later than software
version 12

 

[Art]

If in fact you were "electrocuted" then you could not have been capable of
posting any E-mail so this is redundant. "Dead men tell no tales"
"Product developer" <jdurban@vorel.com> wrote in message
news:118afaeb.0402121825.3a45dd78@posting.google.com...

news2020 <user121@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:<402BCE20.93CBFDE8@peoplepc.com>...
Is it that bad in Everett, Washington State ?


Rick wrote:
Path:


sn-us!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu

!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45
..49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POST
ED!78b02316!not-for-mail

From:
"Rick" <rick@skyko.com
Newsgroups:
sci.electronics.design
References:
402ABAAF.D029BF7@peoplepc.com
402ADDBB.FB2DB50C@peoplepc.com
Subject:
Re: Reposting: Pictures of two vehicles that
electrocuted me
today
Lines:
16
X-Priority:
3
X-MSMail-Priority:
Normal
X-Newsreader:
Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
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Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
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Date:
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X-Complaints-To:
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X-Trace:
nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1076553058 4.46.153.12 (Wed, 11
Feb 2004
21:30:58 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date:
Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:30:58 EST
Xref:
sn-us sci.electronics.design:416825

news2020 wrote:

Pictures of two vehicles in my neighborhood that electrocuted me
today
snip

electrocute

1) To kill with electricity
2) To execute by means of electricity

Suggest you go touch the cars again (maybe during a rainstorm?) so we
can be rid
of your troll a**

This is a covert CIA killer car protocol called project "Hot Wheels".
Cars are charged up and stalk unsuspecting pedestrians. If one
approaches you don't touch any metal parts.

Were you on the O.J. Jury a few years back?

 

[Ed Price]

"Art" <stubby@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:vOWdnZBEpPEF7rLdRVn-jg@comcast.com...

If in fact you were "electrocuted" then you could not have been capable of
posting any E-mail so this is redundant. "Dead men tell no tales"

Not true; it is demonstrably possible for the merely brain-dead to post
abundantly!

Ed

 

[Harvey Edwards]

Crydom D2425 has been ultra reliable in the radar power application I
have used them.
No failures in more than 150 units over ten years, cant recommend them
to highly.

Harvey



"Dennis <Howdy Doody" <Dennis> wrote in message
news:10329o4ok77kgd6@corp.supernews.com

Is there a solid-state contactor, that will
handle 120@20Amps?. One with low voltage
control.

TIA,

Dennis

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 

[Dennis]

In article <402E4DD4.DBFA5F02@peoplepc.com>, user121@peoplepc.com says...

RE:
This is just to show that this post is relevant to the newsgroups posted
in !
To take care of another bunch of internet sickos who allowed the rape to
happen by blocking my internet connection (att) for over 6 months. They
have promised to connect everything back for $9.95 or something like that
but they have taken my order for long distance etc. but not reconnected
the internet service yet - trying to delay it or deny it ! I need it back.

LASERS, ELECTROCUTION, CARS, SMALL PLANES, AWACS,
WIDE-BODIED PLANES, HELICOPTERS, ELECTROCUTION
EQUIPMENT INSTALLED IN ALL HOMES AND
COMPANIES/INDUSTRIAL PLANTS AROUND MY HOUSE,
LASERS STATIONED IN THE SKY ALL AROUND, etc.

SOMEONE IS REALLY SICKO -
Do Something To Expose These SICKOS !
--------------------------------------------

To fly small planes and fighters and huge AWACS planes and wide bodied
planes
over my house and shoot at me in my house while I sleep or do something
in my
house such as writing this piece is really reflective of VERY VERY sick
people !

The coward(s) who is(are) ordering the entire military force of the most
powerful nation
on earth to go and target a person such as myself must not be allowed to

continue this 2 1/2 years after my first police report about such
incidents and grave injuries that I have already suffered through

on a 24 hour basis so far.

EXPOSE THE COWARDS AND HIGH CRIMINALS.

Just now a fighter plane type of aircraft flew overhead of my house,

North-West to South-East and shot at the back of my head. All of last
night, I was electrocuted while I slept. By sparking equipment that
produced showers of sparks that went right through the head and
caused a prickly pain in the extemities whenever the shots hit me.
Powered from vehicles on the road and parking lots in Los Esteros
Apartments and houses nearby. They are also using electrocuting
equpment installed in my neighbors' houses. #1295 Vietnamese
man neighbor seems to be getting regular instructions and
participating in the electrocution by installing equipment for
remote control as well as actually aiming them whenever I
change sleeping locations, etc. #1291 killer seems to be the
co-ordinator for local killers. #1296 (SF Chinese),
#1298 (Jewish), #1290 (Taiwanese visa imports),
#1908 Beaufort (Chino Chinese) are closely involved with installed
lasers and electrocution sparking equipment and satellite
dishes, etc. #1051 McKay killer laser installed on the chimney was
shooting at my head last night. It is so powerful that it
goes through everything and it is pinpoint in accuracy !
I think the #1051 chimney laser was controlled by
#12/1035 McKay (Los Esteros)(Vietnamese Energy
Dept. Nuclear Laser Control Center ?) last night.

This is only a short description that does not cover
all electrocution that happened yesterday. For example
I was electrocuted continuously by lights and direct
beacon on my face while I attended a meeting last night.
Also, back home, a car from the parking lot of
Los Esteros was continously electrocuting with
boom-boom type electrocuting pulsations -
3USX195 Black Mercury Villager GS Van and
4NRH347 Black Chev Tracker SUV 'Billings' 'Milpitas'
have been observed participating in this electrocution.
An endless stream of vehicles, infinite resources
are being allocated to maintain the electrocution.

The description above is only a part of the electrocution
activity of yesterday and night. The evil is all around
and no one is able to do anything to expose these
high criminals and bring them to justice. Are all these
killer going to get away scot free ?

DO SOMETHING TO EXPOSE THESE SICKOS !

--------------------------------------------------

PLEASE GO SOMEPLACE ELSE WITH YOUR BULLSHIT!!

 

Hello all,

As I am a newbie in the world of theoretical and practical
electronics I have come across quite a few ares that I have questions
in. One subject that I am not clear on is the level needed for
accurate measurements via an analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter.

I understand that, as per the mathematics, the higher the impedence
value the more accurate the measurement from the meter. However I was
wondering what would be the necessary level of ohms/volt that an
analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter would need to operate at in order
for the measurement(s) being displayed to be considered accurate for
the testing of compuers/arcade PCB's, as well as general trouble
shooting of other common electrical devices (phone, PDA, etc.). Is
20,000 ohms/volt generally satisfactory, or does one really need a
50,000 ohms/volt meter?

As a note, I have a digital multimeter that is rated at 4 megaohms,
however, I am interested in the analog multimeter so that I can see
any spikes that may be produced by the electrical device.

Thank you all for your time and advice!

Respectfully,

Sam

 

[Jim Yanik]

jacobson98@earthlink.net wrote in
news:nqo440le8q47nturkvfah9shttc0tclqii@4ax.com:

Hello all,

As I am a newbie in the world of theoretical and practical
electronics I have come across quite a few ares that I have questions
in. One subject that I am not clear on is the level needed for
accurate measurements via an analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter.

I understand that, as per the mathematics, the higher the impedence
value the more accurate the measurement from the meter.

Well,this is not really accurate;the "ohms/volt" or impedance of the meter
determines the -loading- or effect the meter has on the circuit under
test.When you connect a meter a certain amount of current is drawn from the
circuit by the meter,and the higher the meter's impedance,the less current
is drawn,and the less effect the meter has on the circuit's
performance.Consider the meter as a high value resistor being parallelled
with your circuit.A 10 volt range on a 20Kohms/V meter has an effective R
of 200K ohms.If this is connected across a 200K resistor,it will
effectively make the resistor a 100K resistor,and drastically
affect(change) the circuit,making your measurement inaccurate.(The same
goes for scope probes.)On a 50K/ohms/V meter,the meter acts like a 500K
resistor in parallel with your 200K circuit resistor.If you use a 10Megohm
DMM,that meter would have far less effect.(The DMM's input Z is determined
by it's input divider,not the basic impedance of the meter like an analog
meter.

*Accuracy* of any particular meter is determined by the quality(precision
or tolerance) of the meter's components,and it's resolution,or how fine a
measurement it can make.

However I was

wondering what would be the necessary level of ohms/volt that an
analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter would need to operate at in order
for the measurement(s) being displayed to be considered accurate for
the testing of compuers/arcade PCB's, as well as general trouble
shooting of other common electrical devices (phone, PDA, etc.). Is
20,000 ohms/volt generally satisfactory, or does one really need a
50,000 ohms/volt meter?

Most digital multimeters(DMM) have a 10 Megohm input impedance,some are
even higher.If you are measuring low impedance circuits,a lower impedance
meter has little effect,as it's parallelling a small value R with a very
high R.

As a note, I have a digital multimeter that is rated at 4 megaohms,
however, I am interested in the analog multimeter so that I can see
any spikes that may be produced by the electrical device.

The analog meter may not respond fast enough to see every 'spike' in the
device under test.That's what oscilloscopes are for.

Thank you all for your time and advice!

Respectfully,

Sam

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

 

Hello!

Thank you for the help! And, quite, I would be the first to say that
I have so much to learn!

If I understand correctly, then, the 20K VOM would be just fine as a
analog meter for most applications, and that if I want precise
measurements for "spiking" the best choice would be an oscilloscope.
Thus the tandem of a 20K VOM and an oscilloscope would be fine.
However for general multimeter usage, since the oscilloscope will
catch the "spikes" better, the proper choice would be a DMM. Is this
correct?

Thanks again! I really appreciate the help!

Always,

Sam

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:13:19 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote:

jacobson98@earthlink.net wrote in
news:nqo440le8q47nturkvfah9shttc0tclqii@4ax.com:

Hello all,

As I am a newbie in the world of theoretical and practical
electronics I have come across quite a few ares that I have questions
in. One subject that I am not clear on is the level needed for
accurate measurements via an analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter.

I understand that, as per the mathematics, the higher the impedence
value the more accurate the measurement from the meter.

Well,this is not really accurate;the "ohms/volt" or impedance of the meter
determines the -loading- or effect the meter has on the circuit under
test.When you connect a meter a certain amount of current is drawn from the
circuit by the meter,and the higher the meter's impedance,the less current
is drawn,and the less effect the meter has on the circuit's
performance.Consider the meter as a high value resistor being parallelled
with your circuit.A 10 volt range on a 20Kohms/V meter has an effective R
of 200K ohms.If this is connected across a 200K resistor,it will
effectively make the resistor a 100K resistor,and drastically
affect(change) the circuit,making your measurement inaccurate.(The same
goes for scope probes.)On a 50K/ohms/V meter,the meter acts like a 500K
resistor in parallel with your 200K circuit resistor.If you use a 10Megohm
DMM,that meter would have far less effect.(The DMM's input Z is determined
by it's input divider,not the basic impedance of the meter like an analog
meter.

*Accuracy* of any particular meter is determined by the quality(precision
or tolerance) of the meter's components,and it's resolution,or how fine a
measurement it can make.

However I was
wondering what would be the necessary level of ohms/volt that an
analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter would need to operate at in order
for the measurement(s) being displayed to be considered accurate for
the testing of compuers/arcade PCB's, as well as general trouble
shooting of other common electrical devices (phone, PDA, etc.). Is
20,000 ohms/volt generally satisfactory, or does one really need a
50,000 ohms/volt meter?

Most digital multimeters(DMM) have a 10 Megohm input impedance,some are
even higher.If you are measuring low impedance circuits,a lower impedance
meter has little effect,as it's parallelling a small value R with a very
high R.

As a note, I have a digital multimeter that is rated at 4 megaohms,
however, I am interested in the analog multimeter so that I can see
any spikes that may be produced by the electrical device.

The analog meter may not respond fast enough to see every 'spike' in the
device under test.That's what oscilloscopes are for.

Thank you all for your time and advice!

Respectfully,

Sam

 

[Walter Harley]

<jacobson98@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:v52540l890qjj9ln951kfih04g5m5mho0d@4ax.com...

If I understand correctly, then, the 20K VOM would be just fine as a
analog meter for most applications, and that if I want precise
measurements for "spiking" the best choice would be an oscilloscope.
Thus the tandem of a 20K VOM and an oscilloscope would be fine.
However for general multimeter usage, since the oscilloscope will
catch the "spikes" better, the proper choice would be a DMM. Is this
correct?

A pretty good rule of thumb is "do what everyone else does unless you know
better." These days, people use digital DMM's for most purposes, and analog
multimeters are relatively uncommon.

(I know a bunch of the oldtimers on this group are about to say "hey, I use
one every day"; to which, let me just say that I used an ancient HP vacuum
tube AC voltmeter just a couple of days ago. And I sometimes fantasize
about buying a Simpson 260 for my audio work. But a quick look at the
catalogs will tell you which ones are more common nowadays.)

A quality DMM is much cheaper and easier to find than a quality analog
meter, these days. For that matter, a cheap DMM is cheaper than a cheap
analog meter, and probably better able to take being tossed around in a
toolbox.

An oscilloscope is a whole different beast. You talk about wanting to
measure "spikes"; there are a lot of things you might mean by that. Analog
meters do tend to have faster response than digital meters, but they're
still not fast enough to see the sort of spikes that digital circuitry can
cause. For that you would indeed need an oscilloscope; but before you go
out and get one, you might want to do a bit of research into what a scope
does and how to use it. There were several threads on this NG recently
instigated by a fellow who went out and bought a used scope without a clue
of how to use it, and couldn't even figure out whether or not it was
working. A scope is NOT a "turn it on and connect the test leads" device,
like DMM's often are.

 

[Robert Baer]

jacobson98@earthlink.net wrote:

Hello all,

As I am a newbie in the world of theoretical and practical
electronics I have come across quite a few ares that I have questions
in. One subject that I am not clear on is the level needed for
accurate measurements via an analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter.

I understand that, as per the mathematics, the higher the impedence
value the more accurate the measurement from the meter. However I was
wondering what would be the necessary level of ohms/volt that an
analog voltmeter and/or a multimeter would need to operate at in order
for the measurement(s) being displayed to be considered accurate for
the testing of compuers/arcade PCB's, as well as general trouble
shooting of other common electrical devices (phone, PDA, etc.). Is
20,000 ohms/volt generally satisfactory, or does one really need a
50,000 ohms/volt meter?

As a note, I have a digital multimeter that is rated at 4 megaohms,
however, I am interested in the analog multimeter so that I can see
any spikes that may be produced by the electrical device.

Thank you all for your time and advice!

Respectfully,

Sam

Most of the better analog VOMs are rated at 20,000 ohms/volt (ie: 50uA
at full scale).
Most of the DMMs are rated at 10Megohms.
Since a DMM samples and there is a long time between samples, they
usually miss a "slow spike" more often than not.
But a VOM needle will "jump" or otherwise fluctuate.
However, if the "spike" is a relatively fast and "low level", both
meters will miss it.
Fast, regular pulses will show on a VOM as a DC level which is the
average value, and if one knows the rep-rate, one could calculate the
approximate peak level and pulse width.
So, in special cases, they can compliment each other.