Media players...

[Don Y]

Canvasing the sorts of offerings available, it is amusing (?)
to note the assumptions that seem to be baked into each design.

I\'m wondering if it is because of a perceived *need* among
consumers...
.... or a \"we can do this so why don\'t we do it\" sort of
\"engineering attitude\" divorced from any real market demand.

Specifically, media players seem to provide information
that is of dubious value.

Looking at audio players, they seem to universally inform you
of the name of the title being played, artist, running time,
album title, album art (if their hardware can display graphics),
etc. Many track your (subjective) \"rating\" for the piece.

Video players present a similar complement of metadata;
a \"still\" from the work, title, some enumerate performers,
year of release, etc.

I wonder how much of this is just window-dressing at runtime?

Do you really need to know the name of the song to which you are
listening? And the artist? Are you busily studying the album
cover (why not the *back and/or inner sides??) that contained
the medium? Do you care if there are 2:27 remaining on the track
(and 4:16 already played)?

Ditto for video.

In ages past, you put an album on and likely set the case/jacket
down someplace for the sole purpose of not misplacing it. Then,
pressed PLAY. Or, set the tonearm on the viny...

And, when the music stopped, you knew it was time to change
the media. Somehow, you didn\'t need to know the exact number
of minutes/seconds until that event... when it happened, it
happened (or, you were familiar enough with the piece that
you knew from memory).

Aside from locating a particular title (audio/video) in a
*collection* (which can now be stored on the player), the
rest of this stuff seems like a solution in need of a problem.

E.g., I have an iPod Shuffle -- no display, just 5 buttons -- and
it magically is able to provide music without telling me *anything*
about what I\'m hearing (other than the music itself). Is all the
rest just creeping featurism? Or, engineers opting for what they
*could* do, with a clean slate, instead of what the market really
wants?

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:30:17 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

Canvasing the sorts of offerings available, it is amusing (?)
to note the assumptions that seem to be baked into each design.

I\'m wondering if it is because of a perceived *need* among
consumers...
... or a \"we can do this so why don\'t we do it\" sort of
\"engineering attitude\" divorced from any real market demand.

Specifically, media players seem to provide information
that is of dubious value.

Looking at audio players, they seem to universally inform you
of the name of the title being played, artist, running time,
album title, album art (if their hardware can display graphics),
etc. Many track your (subjective) \"rating\" for the piece.

Video players present a similar complement of metadata;
a \"still\" from the work, title, some enumerate performers,
year of release, etc.

I wonder how much of this is just window-dressing at runtime?
....
Aside from locating a particular title (audio/video) in a
*collection* (which can now be stored on the player), the
rest of this stuff seems like a solution in need of a problem.

E.g., I have an iPod Shuffle -- no display, just 5 buttons -- and
it magically is able to provide music without telling me *anything*
about what I\'m hearing

And, an iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch would allow you to select
an artist or song by name... it\'s all the same data, no particular
need to truncate the database of those audio selections just to accommodate
a particular choice of playback mechanism. I agree, though,
that adding an album cover is a flawed idea; the scale of the cover
is just WRONG on those tiny displays, the artist didn\'t intend
that viewing experience. An LP cover can be admired from across
the living room.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/19/2022 10:59 AM, whit3rd wrote:

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:30:17 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
Canvasing the sorts of offerings available, it is amusing (?)
to note the assumptions that seem to be baked into each design.

I\'m wondering if it is because of a perceived *need* among
consumers...
... or a \"we can do this so why don\'t we do it\" sort of
\"engineering attitude\" divorced from any real market demand.

Specifically, media players seem to provide information
that is of dubious value.

Looking at audio players, they seem to universally inform you
of the name of the title being played, artist, running time,
album title, album art (if their hardware can display graphics),
etc. Many track your (subjective) \"rating\" for the piece.

Video players present a similar complement of metadata;
a \"still\" from the work, title, some enumerate performers,
year of release, etc.

I wonder how much of this is just window-dressing at runtime?
...
Aside from locating a particular title (audio/video) in a
*collection* (which can now be stored on the player), the
rest of this stuff seems like a solution in need of a problem.

E.g., I have an iPod Shuffle -- no display, just 5 buttons -- and
it magically is able to provide music without telling me *anything*
about what I\'m hearing

And, an iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch would allow you to select
an artist or song by name... it\'s all the same data, no particular
need to truncate the database of those audio selections just to accommodate
a particular choice of playback mechanism.

But, that\'s the *selection* function. You could blank the display
after pressing PLAY and who would miss the \"presentation\"?

I agree, though,
that adding an album cover is a flawed idea; the scale of the cover
is just WRONG on those tiny displays, the artist didn\'t intend
that viewing experience. An LP cover can be admired from across
the living room.

With Vinyl, you would typically only GLANCE at the front of
the cover; anything of interest (tracklist, trivia, etc.)
would likely be on the backside. You\'d commit the cover to
memory (approximate) just so you could *locate* it, again, in
your stack of albums.

But, is that truly the most efficient means of finding an album?
What\'s the cover art look like for the Zappa album with \"Billy
the Mountain\"? We \"tolerated\" that means of access simply because
we had no other (reading what\'s on a jacket\'s spine is damn near
impossible after its been manhandled a bit)

And, media players don\'t present anything other than the front.

(Think about multi-record albums and how much is \"hidden\"
inside)

When you listen to the radio, does *it* tell you the name of
the song, time remaining, artist, etc.? Does NOT having that
information available diminish the experience?

(Arguably, you are more likely to want to know a title for
a broadcast source as you likely didn\'t PICK that title!)

When you watch broadcast TV, is a movie less satisfying because you
don\'t have it\'s name displayed at all times? And, have to rely on
the wall clock for an approximation of when it will be over?

I.e., how much of this is a genuine need that is being met
with new technology vs. just \"stuff we can do\"?

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Friday, 19 August 2022 at 11:10:12 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 8/19/2022 10:59 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:30:17 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
Canvasing the sorts of offerings available, it is amusing (?)
to note the assumptions that seem to be baked into each design.

I\'m wondering if it is because of a perceived *need* among
consumers...
... or a \"we can do this so why don\'t we do it\" sort of
\"engineering attitude\" divorced from any real market demand.

Specifically, media players seem to provide information
that is of dubious value.

Looking at audio players, they seem to universally inform you
of the name of the title being played, artist, running time,
album title, album art (if their hardware can display graphics),
etc. Many track your (subjective) \"rating\" for the piece.

Video players present a similar complement of metadata;
a \"still\" from the work, title, some enumerate performers,
year of release, etc.

I wonder how much of this is just window-dressing at runtime?
...
Aside from locating a particular title (audio/video) in a
*collection* (which can now be stored on the player), the
rest of this stuff seems like a solution in need of a problem.

E.g., I have an iPod Shuffle -- no display, just 5 buttons -- and
it magically is able to provide music without telling me *anything*
about what I\'m hearing

And, an iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch would allow you to select
an artist or song by name... it\'s all the same data, no particular
need to truncate the database of those audio selections just to accommodate
a particular choice of playback mechanism.
But, that\'s the *selection* function. You could blank the display
after pressing PLAY and who would miss the \"presentation\"?
I agree, though,
that adding an album cover is a flawed idea; the scale of the cover
is just WRONG on those tiny displays, the artist didn\'t intend
that viewing experience. An LP cover can be admired from across
the living room.

I use an iPad as a music player in the home - I can see the album cover from across the room.

With Vinyl, you would typically only GLANCE at the front of
the cover; anything of interest (tracklist, trivia, etc.)
would likely be on the backside. You\'d commit the cover to
memory (approximate) just so you could *locate* it, again, in
your stack of albums.

But, is that truly the most efficient means of finding an album?
What\'s the cover art look like for the Zappa album with \"Billy
the Mountain\"? We \"tolerated\" that means of access simply because
we had no other (reading what\'s on a jacket\'s spine is damn near
impossible after its been manhandled a bit)

And, media players don\'t present anything other than the front.

The Apple music player allows you to view the rear cover that typically has the list of tracks.

(Think about multi-record albums and how much is \"hidden\"
inside)

When you listen to the radio, does *it* tell you the name of
the song, time remaining, artist, etc.? Does NOT having that
information available diminish the experience?

Virtually all my radio listening at home or in the car is done by streaming or HD Radio where the song name, composer etc is available, and I do value having that information. I like to know those details. Especially for radio where I may not know the title of the piece playing.

(Arguably, you are more likely to want to know a title for
a broadcast source as you likely didn\'t PICK that title!)

When you watch broadcast TV, is a movie less satisfying because you
don\'t have it\'s name displayed at all times? And, have to rely on
the wall clock for an approximation of when it will be over?

I.e., how much of this is a genuine need that is being met
with new technology vs. just \"stuff we can do\"?
I like that it is available.

kw

 

[rbowman]

On 08/19/2022 11:29 AM, Don Y wrote:

Do you really need to know the name of the song to which you are
listening? And the artist? Are you busily studying the album
cover (why not the *back and/or inner sides??) that contained
the medium? Do you care if there are 2:27 remaining on the track
(and 4:16 already played)?

Album cover? Paging 1976. I\'m a dinosaur so I do still buy the
occasional CD which I promptly rip and copy to a thumb drive. I stick
the drive into the car\'s radio (okay, entertainment center) and hit
shuffle.

It does come in handy. Just this afternoon as I was coming home from
CostCo I heard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iP9Q0JajMs

I was pretty sure who it was but a glance confirmed it was Maybelle
Carter from a Vanguard 2 CD set called \'roots of folk\'. I have eclectic
tastes so next up might be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy44ocuoWhE

Mother Maybelle inspired me so when I got home I played It Takes a
Worried Man on the 12 string, banjo, C whistle, and D flute to keep in
practice.

I\'ve got an old shuffle my boss gifted me with one Christmas. That was
my first brush with the iTunes interface. At least on Windows it is the
most counter-intuitive piece of crap I\'ve encountered.

The shuffle is okay for the gym although if it wasn\'t such a hassle I
would delete the Danzig stuff. A little of that goes a long way.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/19/2022 12:09 PM, Don Y wrote:

With Vinyl, you would typically only GLANCE at the front of
the cover; anything of interest (tracklist, trivia, etc.)
would likely be on the backside. You\'d commit the cover to
memory (approximate) just so you could *locate* it, again, in
your stack of albums.

You\'ve never contemplated the Dead\'s American Beauty cover while under
the influence. I was never sure if it said Beauty or Reality.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/4c/47/6a4c4794368b2a0e2196358101bcd4d6.jpg

 

[Don Y]

On 8/19/2022 7:11 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/19/2022 11:29 AM, Don Y wrote:
Do you really need to know the name of the song to which you are
listening? And the artist? Are you busily studying the album
cover (why not the *back and/or inner sides??) that contained
the medium? Do you care if there are 2:27 remaining on the track
(and 4:16 already played)?

Album cover?

Whether a bit of vinyl or a CD, it\'s still an album cover in my lexicon.
Nowadays, abbreviated \"cover art\".

Paging 1976. I\'m a dinosaur so I do still buy the occasional CD
which I promptly rip and copy to a thumb drive. I stick the drive into the
car\'s radio (okay, entertainment center) and hit shuffle.

I ripped all of my CDs long ago -- still have several boots to rip
but they\'re vinyl. I prefer music in the order it appeared on
the album (or live concert recording) and not willy-nilly.

And, this leads to some interesting situations: e.g., Chubby Checkers
is *predictably* followed by The DC5. Somehow, they seem to fit, well.

I keep a \"low profile\" (1/4 tall) 32G thumb drive plugged into the
car (\"assorted artisits\"). SWMBO has her music loaded on the car\'s
internal disk drive (stuff of which I\'m not particularly fond). And,
I carry a phone (\"no service\") with additional music (Dreadful Grapes)
when I\'m going to be out-and-about (away from the car and needing a
timepiece) which pairs with the infotainment center as an alternate
music source.

Car will extract coverart and other appropriate info (title, artist)
from the MP3\'s tags and display it on one of the graphic displays.
But, I\'ve usually got that display set to display GPS or whatever.
The *real* interface is next/prev song, next/prev album, next/prev
music *source*. If I don\'t feel like listening to whatever is playing
at the moment, press the appropriate control with left thumb on steering
wheel and see (HEAR!) what *else* there is to offer.

No point in keeping anything I don\'t like on any media source so its
just a question of whether or not I want to listen to a particular
item *now*, or not (Nah, not keen on \"A Child\'s Garden of Grass\"
at the moment. \"Alice\'s Restaurant\" may be acceptable, though...).
There are enough titles that it takes me weeks before the list
recycles (alphabetized, by my choice).

If we\'re listening to the radio, it\'s either a news/talk show, a voice
program or \"music of inconsequential nature\" (e.g., The _____ Philharmonic
plays ________\'s Nth Sonata in Q minor).

On my evening walks, I carry a Sony \"Network Walkman\" (a misnomer if
ever there was!) owing to its small size and one-handed, sightless
operation -- song/album select, volume up/down, play/pause:

<https://digimission.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/02/nw-e505-f.jpg>

It has a display but I\'m surely not going to stop my walk just to read the
tiny text! Besides, I already know all of the music loaded on it so
what do I need to *read*?! (I can predict the next song as I listen in
\"album order\")

SWMBO just picks one of 6 CD\'s that she\'s installed in her \"bookshelf
stereo\" so she already knows what *they* are. Or, flips on the radio
(to a classical/jazz station -- do you really care what\'s playing?).
When <whatever> program source stops playing something appealing, she
moves to another (CD, station, etc.).

I have a Surface 3 Pro by each workstation that acts as a media
player (BT speakers). But, the \"lid\" is kept closed so I can\'t
*see* anything while its playing.

Watching folks listening with earbuds and they\'re phones are in a pocket
or purse. No need to see the coverart or the name of the tune or how
many minutes remain.

It does come in handy. Just this afternoon as I was coming home from CostCo I
heard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iP9Q0JajMs

I was pretty sure who it was but a glance confirmed it was Maybelle Carter from
a Vanguard 2 CD set called \'roots of folk\'. I have eclectic tastes so next up
might be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy44ocuoWhE

Mother Maybelle inspired me so when I got home I played It Takes a Worried Man
on the 12 string, banjo, C whistle, and D flute to keep in practice.

I listen to things that I know I will enjoy. No need to \"risk\" something
that might not be appealing. I\'ve a friend who \"collects\" renditions of
\"Ghost Riders in the Sky\" -- seems a bit monotonous.

I\'ve only once, in recent memory, wanted to know who/what was playing;
it was a tribute album so the songs were familiar but \"all wrong\"
(\"Ah! Different artist/interpretation!\")

I\'ve got an old shuffle my boss gifted me with one Christmas. That was my first
brush with the iTunes interface. At least on Windows it is the most
counter-intuitive piece of crap I\'ve encountered.

Agreed. I\'ve had two over the years. The \"tie tack\" version was very
convenient (with corded earphones) as you could clip it to a lapel
and it was still accessible but not in your hands or otherwise in
your way.

I\'ve discarded 3 or 4 iPods (various generations -- audio & video)
as they were equally useless interfaces. Trying to do too much with
too few controls is just folly. Witness Kodi...

I rescued some Squeezeboxen to use as a hardware platform for SWMBO\'s
\"stereo\" (HiFi) replacement. Another braindead interface (do you really
think folks want to browse their music library with a two-line display
and a 6 button remote?) You expect me to select a letter-at-a-time
to specify a search criteria? How many character positions do you think
I\'ll do that for before giving up??

And, do you really want an animated display (BLUE, no less!) at your bedside
while you\'re trying to go to sleep?

The shuffle is okay for the gym although if it wasn\'t such a hassle I would
delete the Danzig stuff. A little of that goes a long way.

I\'ve been debating how to \"load media\" into SWMBO\'s \"hifi emulator\".
Obviously, the unit of measure will be playlists, not CDs or tapes
(one can always make a playlist that corresponds 1:1 with a physical
medium). But, given how infrequently she changes the discs,
radio presets, etc. I\'m not keen on investing much effort, there.

Maybe a simple web interface to the server that lets her \"load\"
a particular playlist (selected from a featureful display)
into a particular \"source\".

 

[Don Y]

On 8/19/2022 7:15 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/19/2022 12:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
With Vinyl, you would typically only GLANCE at the front of
the cover; anything of interest (tracklist, trivia, etc.)
would likely be on the backside. You\'d commit the cover to
memory (approximate) just so you could *locate* it, again, in
your stack of albums.

You\'ve never contemplated the Dead\'s American Beauty cover while under the
influence. I was never sure if it said Beauty or Reality.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/4c/47/6a4c4794368b2a0e2196358101bcd4d6.jpg

Staring at album art is so \"teenager\"! :> Too much of the art
tries too hard to be trippy. \"Live Dead\" -> ACID? Aoxomoxoa ->
\"ATE ACID\"? The phallus in ELP\'s BSS, lfe/death symbols In Search of
the Lost Chord, the faces (not well) hidden in Santana\'s first (?)
album cover, and Over-nite Sensation is just chock full of stuff!

[I chuckled when a Boston fan was surprised to see the guitar in
their debut album cover: \"No, it\'s a spaceship!\" \"No, it\'s a
guitar!!\"]

Some is very well executed (Blues for Allah). But, I\'d not want it
hanging in the living room!

I enjoy looking at the covers of Dick\'s/Dave\'s Picks to see if any
recollections of the performances within. But, I haven\'t a clue as
to what\'s on 23... or 45! And, the music on 24 is a nice followon
to 23 (which follows 22...) as there\'s no rhyme nor reason to the
selections!

[SWMBO was stunned when she heard ELP\'s \"Pictures\". Quite a different
rendition than what she was used to! :> ]

No need for \"shuffle\" when the music is random enough.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/19/2022 11:53 PM, Don Y wrote:

Staring at album art is so \"teenager\"! :> Too much of the art
tries too hard to be trippy. \"Live Dead\" -> ACID? Aoxomoxoa -
\"ATE ACID\"? The phallus in ELP\'s BSS, lfe/death symbols In Search of
the Lost Chord, the faces (not well) hidden in Santana\'s first (?)
album cover, and Over-nite Sensation is just chock full of stuff!

Don\'t forget \'Sticky Fingers\' with the working zipper. I don\'t know how
long they did that before going to a photo.

> No need for \"shuffle\" when the music is random enough.

No random when you copy the directory with the ripped CD onto a MP3
player. Without top level shuffle it will play everything in the
directory before moving on. Shuffle within a directory can be
disconcerting for an album where you know what\'s supposed to come next.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/19/2022 11:04 PM, Don Y wrote:

Car will extract coverart and other appropriate info (title, artist)
from the MP3\'s tags and display it on one of the graphic displays.

There may be others that I haven\'t noticed but the only one with artwork
is a Saga album. It may have something to do with the way I ripped them.
I don\'t usually bother getting the metadata from the big metadata
repository in the sky.

I\'ve only once, in recent memory, wanted to know who/what was playing;
it was a tribute album so the songs were familiar but \"all wrong\"
(\"Ah! Different artist/interpretation!\")

I\'ve got a couple of those, one for Townes Van Zandt and one for Guy
Clarke. Steve Earle usually does a Van Zandt cover on an album but those
I can pick out.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/19/2022 11:34 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/19/2022 11:53 PM, Don Y wrote:
Staring at album art is so \"teenager\"! :> Too much of the art
tries too hard to be trippy. \"Live Dead\" -> ACID? Aoxomoxoa -
\"ATE ACID\"? The phallus in ELP\'s BSS, lfe/death symbols In Search of
the Lost Chord, the faces (not well) hidden in Santana\'s first (?)
album cover, and Over-nite Sensation is just chock full of stuff!

Don\'t forget \'Sticky Fingers\' with the working zipper. I don\'t know how long
they did that before going to a photo.

I had a Grand Funk album on yellow vinyl. The album jacket was gold foil so
I thought nothing of the medium being yellow. Apparently it wasn\'t standard.
A friend also bought the album and his vinyl was black.

And, a \"rainbow colored\" (all sorts of flakes of color pressed into one)
album produced by a local radio station:

<http://www.wdrcobg.com/popimages/hearhere_front.jpg>

No need for \"shuffle\" when the music is random enough.

No random when you copy the directory with the ripped CD onto a MP3 player.
Without top level shuffle it will play everything in the directory before
moving on. Shuffle within a directory can be disconcerting for an album where
you know what\'s supposed to come next.

Many of my \"albums\" are concert recordings. Track #2 *really* needs to follow
track #1 -- and gapless. Jumping to some other track would really ruin
the effect!

OTOH, having Tull follow Ike & Tina is a nice chain jump. Or, Chase following
Big Brother. The *type* of music changes significantly.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/19/2022 11:44 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/19/2022 11:04 PM, Don Y wrote:
Car will extract coverart and other appropriate info (title, artist)
from the MP3\'s tags and display it on one of the graphic displays.

There may be others that I haven\'t noticed but the only one with artwork is a
Saga album. It may have something to do with the way I ripped them. I don\'t
usually bother getting the metadata from the big metadata repository in the sky.

I merge the coverart into each track -- plus keep a JPEG in the
folder as some players will tag the folder with such an image.

I\'ve only once, in recent memory, wanted to know who/what was playing;
it was a tribute album so the songs were familiar but \"all wrong\"
(\"Ah! Different artist/interpretation!\")

I\'ve got a couple of those, one for Townes Van Zandt and one for Guy Clarke.
Steve Earle usually does a Van Zandt cover on an album but those I can pick out.

Friends threw a party for me some time ago when I returned for a visit.
This album was playing quietly in the background -- beneath the noise
and chatter.

It took a long time for me to hear a long enough stretch of it to realize
it was \"wrong\". My host broke into laughter: \"I wondered when you
would catch on!\"

I tend to like tunes played by certain artists. E.g., Dancing in the Street
is pathetic with Bowie/Jagger. OTOH, Proud Mary by Ike & Tina puts the
original artists\' version (CCR) to shame! Summertime by Janis. Sweet Jane
by Reed. etc.

Some tunes are toss ups (e.g., Good Lovin\')

 

[rbowman]

On 08/20/2022 01:15 AM, Don Y wrote:

I tend to like tunes played by certain artists. E.g., Dancing in the
Street
is pathetic with Bowie/Jagger. OTOH, Proud Mary by Ike & Tina puts the
original artists\' version (CCR) to shame! Summertime by Janis. Sweet Jane
by Reed. etc.

Not Reed, but not bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg

They aren\'t Springsteen either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5tEkSO2zs

 

[Don Y]

On 8/20/2022 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/20/2022 01:15 AM, Don Y wrote:
I tend to like tunes played by certain artists. E.g., Dancing in the
Street
is pathetic with Bowie/Jagger. OTOH, Proud Mary by Ike & Tina puts the
original artists\' version (CCR) to shame! Summertime by Janis. Sweet Jane
by Reed. etc.

Not Reed, but not bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg

Rendered *loud*:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdWPeHFAMk>

They aren\'t Springsteen either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5tEkSO2zs

Music \"scores a groove\" in my mind. I *expect* a song to sound
(be performed) a certain way. There may be multiple variations
on that \"way\" (\"performances\") but the basics must remain
true.

E.g., I can enjoy \"We Bid You Goodnight\" with or without the
\"chatter\" in the refrain. I can enjoy \"Not Fade Away\" with
or without the Holly \"bop bops\". But \"White Rabbit\" really
only has one great rendering -- don\'t dick with it!

I\'ve dreamt about seeing Guthrie perform \"Alice\"... but know that
he\'d never render it the same as off the vinyl so it wouldn\'t
\"fit\" in that scored groove of audio memory that I\'ve well
established.

A friend editted a version of Yellow Submarine, many years ago,
for a party tape. He *added* an additional repeat in the chorus.
It is amazingly \"disturbing\" to most people who hear it!
EVERYONE knows the lyrics/melody. So, this change \"feels wrong\",
even though you may not consciously be listening to it.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 21/8/22 04:40, Don Y wrote:

On 8/20/2022 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/20/2022 01:15 AM, Don Y wrote:
I tend to like tunes played by certain artists.  E.g., Dancing in the
Street
is pathetic with Bowie/Jagger.  OTOH, Proud Mary by Ike & Tina puts the
original artists\' version (CCR) to shame!  Summertime by Janis.
Sweet Jane
by Reed.  etc.

Not Reed, but not bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg

Rendered *loud*:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdWPeHFAMk

They aren\'t Springsteen either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5tEkSO2zs

Music \"scores a groove\" in my mind.  I *expect* a song to sound
(be performed) a certain way.  There may be multiple variations
on that \"way\" (\"performances\") but the basics must remain
true.

E.g., I can enjoy \"We Bid You Goodnight\" with or without the
\"chatter\" in the refrain.  I can enjoy \"Not Fade Away\" with
or without the Holly \"bop bops\".  But \"White Rabbit\" really
only has one great rendering -- don\'t dick with it!

I\'ve dreamt about seeing Guthrie perform \"Alice\"... but know that
he\'d never render it the same as off the vinyl so it wouldn\'t
\"fit\" in that scored groove of audio memory that I\'ve well
established.

A friend editted a version of Yellow Submarine, many years ago,
for a party tape.  He *added* an additional repeat in the chorus.
It is amazingly \"disturbing\" to most people who hear it!
EVERYONE knows the lyrics/melody.  So, this change \"feels wrong\",
even though you may not consciously be listening to it.

Real musicians never play the same song - or even the same note of a
song - the same way twice. Cover bands try to, but that\'s because they
have trained themselves as music reproduction devices, instead of
musicians. I rejected my classical violin training because I didn\'t see
the point in becoming a music reproduction device, when we have better
electronic versions. My sister is a musician - she\'s spent her life as a
violinist and plays literally all possible styles, with musicality. I
could never have done that.

Clifford Heath.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/20/2022 12:40 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 8/20/2022 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/20/2022 01:15 AM, Don Y wrote:
I tend to like tunes played by certain artists. E.g., Dancing in the
Street
is pathetic with Bowie/Jagger. OTOH, Proud Mary by Ike & Tina puts the
original artists\' version (CCR) to shame! Summertime by Janis.
Sweet Jane
by Reed. etc.

Not Reed, but not bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg

Rendered *loud*:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdWPeHFAMk

They aren\'t Springsteen either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5tEkSO2zs

Music \"scores a groove\" in my mind. I *expect* a song to sound
(be performed) a certain way. There may be multiple variations
on that \"way\" (\"performances\") but the basics must remain
true.

I\'m a lot more flexible. Music gets recycled, altered, personalized, and
grows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EwUehRrC5c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keWnPZOd2cw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGEuMxQDW04

I\'ve seen the Screaming Orphans several times and like the energy they
bring to it. Too bad the photographer was captivated by Joan, but she\'s
the chatty one and tends to draw the eye.

And Black 47 took it in another direction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0r8F8XtcPM

I don\'t sing and never could remember lyrics but when I play it it\'s
\'Foggy Dew\'. Most om my Irish repertoire consists of rebel songs.

E.g., I can enjoy \"We Bid You Goodnight\" with or without the
\"chatter\" in the refrain. I can enjoy \"Not Fade Away\" with
or without the Holly \"bop bops\". But \"White Rabbit\" really
only has one great rendering -- don\'t dick with it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vy1OoBAL-E

Grace, well another Grace...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl89g2SwMh4

And Grace I. I\'ll agree Pink should have left it along.

I saw the Airplane at the Palace Theater in Albany. Grace wandered on
stage and innocently asked \'Is it legal to say \"fuck\" in Albany?\' There
were cops on stage for security and she handed one a tambourine. Cops
are only human and he eventually started hitting it against his leg to
keep time.

I\'ve dreamt about seeing Guthrie perform \"Alice\"... but know that
he\'d never render it the same as off the vinyl so it wouldn\'t
\"fit\" in that scored groove of audio memory that I\'ve well
established.

I saw Arlo c. 1970 at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center. \'Alice\' was
the centerpiece but I\'ll admit the patter in the Motorcycle Song got a
little old. He wasn\'t proud. Or tired.

I saw him again around 1985 in Ft. Wayne. Not much had changed other
than he was older and starting to feel more confident he\'d skipped the
Huntington\'s gene.

I play for my own amusement and even if my skills were a lot better
would never want to be a performing artist. The thought of having to get
up night after night and play the same songs just like everyone expects
to hear them is enough to drive you to drink or drugs.

Unless you\'re Dylan. I saw him in 2000 and he mumbled his way through
barely recognizable covers of his own songs. He\'s been back since but I
skipped the shows. Better to remember what was.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/20/2022 05:10 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:

Real musicians never play the same song - or even the same note of a
song - the same way twice. Cover bands try to, but that\'s because they
have trained themselves as music reproduction devices, instead of
musicians. I rejected my classical violin training because I didn\'t see
the point in becoming a music reproduction device, when we have better
electronic versions. My sister is a musician - she\'s spent her life as a
violinist and plays literally all possible styles, with musicality. I
could never have done that.

I never tried. When I was 15 or so I found a Lightnin\' Hopkins record in
the 99 cent bin at the supermarket and decided that\'s what I wanted to
sound like. Never made it. He seldom played in anything other than E or
A and only had a limited number of riffs in each but the sound is
unique. For him 12 bars was something that may or may not happen and his
sense of time was very flexible. When he got into the mainstream in the
\'60s folk revival and they tried to back him with a drummer or bass it
wasn\'t much fun for anybody involved.

The really unsung heroes are the session musicians. \'Today you\'re going
to play like Willie Nelson.\' \'Okay\'.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/20/2022 7:37 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/20/2022 12:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/20/2022 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/20/2022 01:15 AM, Don Y wrote:
I tend to like tunes played by certain artists. E.g., Dancing in the
Street
is pathetic with Bowie/Jagger. OTOH, Proud Mary by Ike & Tina puts the
original artists\' version (CCR) to shame! Summertime by Janis.
Sweet Jane
by Reed. etc.

Not Reed, but not bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg

Rendered *loud*:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdWPeHFAMk

They aren\'t Springsteen either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5tEkSO2zs

Music \"scores a groove\" in my mind. I *expect* a song to sound
(be performed) a certain way. There may be multiple variations
on that \"way\" (\"performances\") but the basics must remain
true.

I\'m a lot more flexible. Music gets recycled, altered, personalized, and grows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EwUehRrC5c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keWnPZOd2cw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGEuMxQDW04

I\'ve seen the Screaming Orphans several times and like the energy they bring to
it. Too bad the photographer was captivated by Joan, but she\'s the chatty one
and tends to draw the eye.

And Black 47 took it in another direction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0r8F8XtcPM

I don\'t sing and never could remember lyrics but when I play it it\'s \'Foggy
Dew\'. Most om my Irish repertoire consists of rebel songs.

I have a *lot* of music -- probably close to 1000 albums! And they span
a wide range of \"genres\". E.g., \"Camp Granada\" to \"Minnie the Moocher\".
I try not to pick what I\'m going to listen to but, rather, just cycle
through the \"catalog\". It\'s all stuff I like so its just a question
of whether I\'m in the mood for a particular style of music when it
pops up.

And, I have a remarkable memory for tunes, lyrics, performance quirks,
etc. E.g., I can reproduce all of the pauses and stutters in \"Alice\"
without even thinking about it. So, \"deviations\" are readily apparent
to me. They slip out of that \"memory groove\".

Had there been multiple releases of that, I\'d be more tolerant of
differences. E.g., I\'ve hundreds of Dead performances so don\'t
expect any of their tunes to be performed in a particular way.
But, would probably like the song less. All of the stuttering
and offhand comments (\"excepting alice\") would seem too planned, if
they occurred in each performance. As it is, they seem spontaneous
and \"more special\".

[\"There is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact, it\'s
all dark...\"]

OTOH, most of the \"rock operas\", and lengthier numbers only exist in
one \"genuine\" form. I don\'t need to hear another version of Alice,
The Wall, Tommy, In the Court, Billy the Mountain, etc. Or, artists
that have few offerings (I\'ve 3 Chase albums finding the first excellent
and the others... meh; should I want another version of the first?)

And, among multiple performances, I have clear preferences. E.g.,
Reed\'s performance of Sweet Jane while in the Velvet Underground
was a big yawn. I prefer Dylan\'s \"Queen Jane\" with the Dead. etc.

<http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/BU/Hugo_and_Luigi_-_Watusi_Wedding.mp3>
is fun. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5RbMD6N_s> is boring.

Some are nostalgic: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jyS0mXN0s0>
and <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvYlZc-peRY> and
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2fPkzJsMU8> (ah, for the 60\'s!)
and <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OzFHsDlKWg>

Some artists come very close to *repeating* earlier performances as if
that was a goal. E.g., Jingo, Soul Sacrifice, Samba Pa Ti, etc. all
sound roughly the same regardless of which studio cut or live performance.
Amusing considering the performers change, over time.

And, some studio performances benefit from \"extra processing\" that\'s
just not possible (practical?) in live performances.

E.g., I can enjoy \"We Bid You Goodnight\" with or without the
\"chatter\" in the refrain. I can enjoy \"Not Fade Away\" with
or without the Holly \"bop bops\". But \"White Rabbit\" really
only has one great rendering -- don\'t dick with it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vy1OoBAL-E

Grace, well another Grace...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl89g2SwMh4

And Grace I. I\'ll agree Pink should have left it along.

I saw the Airplane at the Palace Theater in Albany. Grace wandered on stage and
innocently asked \'Is it legal to say \"fuck\" in Albany?\' There were cops on
stage for security and she handed one a tambourine. Cops are only human and he
eventually started hitting it against his leg to keep time.

Zappa was the raunchiest performer I\'d seen.

I found it enlightening to see how different groups approached performing.
Some were into theatrics (Emerson\'s flying piano), special effects
(Yes\'s laser show), etc.

I\'ve dreamt about seeing Guthrie perform \"Alice\"... but know that
he\'d never render it the same as off the vinyl so it wouldn\'t
\"fit\" in that scored groove of audio memory that I\'ve well
established.

I saw Arlo c. 1970 at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center. \'Alice\' was the
centerpiece but I\'ll admit the patter in the Motorcycle Song got a little old.
He wasn\'t proud. Or tired.

.... he\'d been singin\' that song for 25 minutes (which is an exageration).

I saw him again around 1985 in Ft. Wayne. Not much had changed other than he
was older and starting to feel more confident he\'d skipped the Huntington\'s gene.

I play for my own amusement and even if my skills were a lot better would never
want to be a performing artist. The thought of having to get up night after
night and play the same songs just like everyone expects to hear them is enough
to drive you to drink or drugs.

I stopped playing instruments after high school. It takes a lot of time;
time that I would rather spend on other things. And, a lot of instruments
don\'t fare well solo.

Unless you\'re Dylan. I saw him in 2000 and he mumbled his way through barely
recognizable covers of his own songs. He\'s been back since but I skipped the
shows. Better to remember what was.

His pipes are shot. But, I enjoyed his collaborations with the Dead
and the Band; both seemed to flesh out his performance

 

[rbowman]

On 08/20/2022 11:39 PM, Don Y wrote:

And, I have a remarkable memory for tunes, lyrics, performance quirks,
etc. E.g., I can reproduce all of the pauses and stutters in \"Alice\"
without even thinking about it. So, \"deviations\" are readily apparent
to me. They slip out of that \"memory groove\".

I don\'t. I\'ve been playing \'Don\'t Think Twice\' since shortly after it
was released. While I think people would recognize it, my version is
nothing like Dylan\'s. Usually it\'s a much slower tempo, more like a
meditation than his 110 BPM. Sometimes I\'ll throw in a little
syncopation. I don\'t sing so keys don\'t matter that much. I play it in G
but I think he does it in C capoed up.

As far as lyrics, while I hear snatches in my head I don\'t think I could
put together a complete verse to match the original. \'But there ain\'t no
use in callin\' out my name, babe\' tends to get followed by \'But I ain\'t
saying you treated me unkind\'.

I do remember tunes but sometimes I go off the rails. Sometimes \'Down by
the Glenside\' morphs into \'Spancill Hill\' and it\'s hard to get back
without moving on to some completely different tune.

I stopped playing instruments after high school. It takes a lot of time;
time that I would rather spend on other things. And, a lot of instruments
don\'t fare well solo.

I enjoy it. A lot of material requires adaptation. For example bluegrass
banjo depends heavily on pattern rolls to maintain the rhythm and takes
the backseat to the fiddle, guitar, or mandolin. If you want to play it
solo you have to adapt sort of a Dock Boggs style. He picked the melody
while singing over it. Guitar is the same. Rhythm guitar is boring
unless you\'re singing a tune over it. Flute, and by extension the tin
whistle family, is mostly melody even if it\'s background in a lot of
bands. Harmonica can be melodic or rhythm like in a lot of blues numbers.

We all spend our spare time differently. For me, music is a creative
outlet. It\'s here and now and then it\'s gone. I very seldom record so
there\'s no record like poetry or painting. It\'s a quick time version of
creating a sand mandala and destroying it.

That\'s also why I never got into photography very much.

Unless you\'re Dylan. I saw him in 2000 and he mumbled his way through
barely recognizable covers of his own songs. He\'s been back since but
I skipped the shows. Better to remember what was.

His pipes are shot. But, I enjoyed his collaborations with the Dead
and the Band; both seemed to flesh out his performance

Well, they never were too good... I was in high school when he played in
the Armory in Troy. It says something about his early days that even
armed with a ticket I couldn\'t get a date. I wound up taking my mother
which was convenient since I was too young to drive myself. If she had
thoughts about sitting on the floor with a bunch of mostly college kids
she kept them to herself although she had definite opinions. I was in my
room playing Leadbelly\'s \'Goodnight Irene\' when she asked who was
slaughtering the song. Her musical memory was the Weavers cover.

I saw the Rolling Thunder Review in Springfield in \'75. When \'Slow Train
Coming\' came out I lost interest until the 2000 concert.

Tangentially, Amy Helm is playing here Friday in the River City Roots
Festival. I\'ll definitely be there since Laney Lou and the Bird Dogs is
up just before her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYSCW4YbRfM

No worries, not THAT \'Ball and Chain\'. The Bird Dogs are one of those
bands that may not be super proficient technically but the do get the
crowd on its feet.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/21/2022 1:47 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/20/2022 11:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
And, I have a remarkable memory for tunes, lyrics, performance quirks,
etc. E.g., I can reproduce all of the pauses and stutters in \"Alice\"
without even thinking about it. So, \"deviations\" are readily apparent
to me. They slip out of that \"memory groove\".

I don\'t. I\'ve been playing \'Don\'t Think Twice\' since shortly after it was
released. While I think people would recognize it, my version is nothing like
Dylan\'s. Usually it\'s a much slower tempo, more like a meditation than his 110
BPM. Sometimes I\'ll throw in a little syncopation. I don\'t sing so keys don\'t
matter that much. I play it in G but I think he does it in C capoed up.

As far as lyrics, while I hear snatches in my head I don\'t think I could put
together a complete verse to match the original. \'But there ain\'t no use in
callin\' out my name, babe\' tends to get followed by \'But I ain\'t saying you
treated me unkind\'.

Without sheet music, it is often hard to sort out the intended lyrics.
I recall a friend calling me, ecstatic, having resolved \"their walls are
built of canon balls\".

Then, of course, we have enigmas like:
A fine little girl, she waits for me
Me catch the ship across the sea
Me sailed the ship all alone
Me never think I\'ll make it home
(c\'mon... you KNOW this one -- but likely never the right lyrics! :> )

Or:
My spy dog saw you spy dog sittin\' by the fi-yo
My spy dog told your spy boy, \"I\'m gonna set your tail on fi-yo.\"
I said, \"Hey now,\" \"Hey now,\". \"Hey now,\" \"Hey now\"

Or:
Charlie handed in his dime
At the Kendall Square Station
And he changed for Jamaica Plain
When he got there the conductor told him,
\"One more nickel.\"
Charlie couldn\'t get off of that train.
<grin>

I do remember tunes but sometimes I go off the rails. Sometimes \'Down by the
Glenside\' morphs into \'Spancill Hill\' and it\'s hard to get back without moving
on to some completely different tune.

I don\'t remember artists or song/album titles. And, only remember the
lyrics *while* the melody is present; it\'s as if my mind makes an
association of melody to lyric and can\'t \"fetch\" the lyrics without
the tonal cues.

Similarly, I can tell you what the *next* song on an album will be as
the present song is drawing to a close... it just \"feels\" like XXXXX.

If I hear a song and want to know the name of it, I have to \"play\"
the entire song in my head (or subvocalize) until I stumble across a
lyric that triggers a memory. I dread ear worms as I can\'t shed it
until I can label the tune!

When a kid, one of my aunts used to sing an italian tune (nursery rhyme?)
to infants. I can hear the lyrics in my head but, not understanding Italian,
have no way of resolving the name of the tune. Or, even understanding
what was being said. She\'s long dead so that source is lost to me.

I stopped playing instruments after high school. It takes a lot of time;
time that I would rather spend on other things. And, a lot of instruments
don\'t fare well solo.

I enjoy it. A lot of material requires adaptation. For example bluegrass banjo
depends heavily on pattern rolls to maintain the rhythm and takes the backseat
to the fiddle, guitar, or mandolin. If you want to play it solo you have to
adapt sort of a Dock Boggs style. He picked the melody while singing over it.
Guitar is the same. Rhythm guitar is boring unless you\'re singing a tune over
it. Flute, and by extension the tin whistle family, is mostly melody even if
it\'s background in a lot of bands. Harmonica can be melodic or rhythm like in a
lot of blues numbers.

I preferred brass/horns. But, very few pieces work as solos (The Lonely Bull?)
Its one of the reasons I enjoy the Chase album mentioned upthread.

We all spend our spare time differently. For me, music is a creative outlet.
It\'s here and now and then it\'s gone. I very seldom record so there\'s no record
like poetry or painting. It\'s a quick time version of creating a sand mandala
and destroying it.

Most of my creative work goes into system design. I enjoy learning
about \"needs\" and coming up with ways to address them. Always
trying to see how *little* of my own \"policies\" I can impose on
the design (build mechanism, not policy).

> That\'s also why I never got into photography very much.

I frown on artist friends who try to paint photorealistically.
\"Why do I need you -- to create an image in many hours or
days when a CAMERA will do the same in seconds?\"
It\'s like making version N of a product -- very little creative
thought involved (you\'re just trimming around the edges).

OTOH, to see something (painting, in this case) truly original
is exciting. I enjoy abstract art particularly because it\'s
a sort of Rorschach test -- \"what do YOU see in this painting?\"

[Yes, I acknowledge there is a shitload of skill in making a
photorealistic painting. I just don\'t see the need. (I was
at one exhibit and spent a good 10 minutes examining a painting
\"up close\" -- inches! -- to try to convince myself it was
a photograph with brush-stroke texture artificially superimposed.
It was *so* perfect...)]

Unless you\'re Dylan. I saw him in 2000 and he mumbled his way through
barely recognizable covers of his own songs. He\'s been back since but
I skipped the shows. Better to remember what was.

His pipes are shot. But, I enjoyed his collaborations with the Dead
and the Band; both seemed to flesh out his performance

Well, they never were too good...

Distinctive sound. Sort of like Janis.

I was in high school when he played in the
Armory in Troy. It says something about his early days that even armed with a
ticket I couldn\'t get a date. I wound up taking my mother which was convenient
since I was too young to drive myself. If she had thoughts about sitting on the
floor with a bunch of mostly college kids she kept them to herself although she
had definite opinions. I was in my room playing Leadbelly\'s \'Goodnight Irene\'
when she asked who was slaughtering the song. Her musical memory was the
Weavers cover.

I saw the Rolling Thunder Review in Springfield in \'75. When \'Slow Train
Coming\' came out I lost interest until the 2000 concert.

I have a fair bit of Dylan but get tired of him really quick.
\"It all sounds the same\".

I found the collaborations with Dead and Band to be delightful
because having all that sound *behind* him suddenly made his
music more interesting; it wasn\'t his vocals that had to
carry the melody.

Tangentially, Amy Helm is playing here Friday in the River City Roots
Festival. I\'ll definitely be there since Laney Lou and the Bird Dogs is up
just before her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYSCW4YbRfM

I\'ve not been to a concert in decades. OTOH, I probably had thirty or forty
behind me, at that time, so it\'s not like I feel \"deprived\". It\'s just
a lot of time/energy for an experience much of which (the music portion)
you can get with a good pair of headphones (now that I got rid of my
Imperials).

ISTR Santana was my last show. I definitely don\'t regret that. It was
REALLY high energy. You felt \"depleted\" afterwards. Sated.

No worries, not THAT \'Ball and Chain\'. The Bird Dogs are one of those bands
that may not be super proficient technically but the do get the crowd on its feet.

Local band, growing up: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aVaJKNfWls>
Amusing to see them still performing, all these years later (they
played at one of my high school? dances)