Maximum Power Point Tracking: Optimizing Solar Panels 58 Comments by: Maya Posch...

[Joe Gwinn]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2023 18:52:16 -0600, Les Cargill <lcargil99@gmail.com>
wrote:

Joe Gwinn wrote:
snip

Yes. I made my living as a embedded-realtime software developed for a
few decades. My colleagues and I were all EEs who took a wrong turn,
and the language of choice was assembler, or machine code, on the
iron. The pure computer-science folk were completely baffled by
embedded real time.



Bizarre. And probably true. A significant fraction of CS is in
Djikstra\'s work on semaphores and the other stuff so related.

It\'s the one unavoidable topic unless you\'re purely in pure
cooperative systems and there are no interrupts.

I think real time software is more akin to clockmaking anyway.

Clockmaking?


Joe Gwinn

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2023 18:52:16 -0600, Les Cargill <lcargil99@gmail.com>
wrote:

Joe Gwinn wrote:
snip

Yes. I made my living as a embedded-realtime software developed for a
few decades. My colleagues and I were all EEs who took a wrong turn,
and the language of choice was assembler, or machine code, on the
iron. The pure computer-science folk were completely baffled by
embedded real time.



Bizarre. And probably true. A significant fraction of CS is in
Djikstra\'s work on semaphores and the other stuff so related.

It\'s the one unavoidable topic unless you\'re purely in pure
cooperative systems and there are no interrupts.

I think real time software is more akin to clockmaking anyway.

Clockmaking?


Joe Gwinn

 

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:29 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

Yep. And at the end of the day, when I memorized my 1-12 times tables in
grade school \"because you won\'t always have a calculator in your
pocket!\" ...

That\'s a different sort of skillset -- one that is more universal.
(we didn\'t have calculators when I was a kid. And, we also had to
memorize the squares up to 20! As well as the preamble to the
constitution, etc. -- never know when THAT might come in handy :< )

Yeah, math was a bad example. It\'s more akin to when I had to write
half a dozen sorting algorithms in programming classes. They were a
pain in the butt, and had almost zero practical application outside of
\"homework exercise\".

Don\'t be dismissive of them. Each algorithm has different characteristics
and cost-benefits, depending on what you are trying to sort. E.g., adding
one item to a sorted list is different than sorting a \"random\" list.

Oh, I\'m not. But I meant the _writing_ of one of those algorithms \"in
the real world\" is generally not done -- a parallel to your \"nobody
builds a powersupply\".

Knuth wrote a series of tomes covering most of the \"basic\" algorithms.
Surprisingly, much software is just a rearranging of these core
algorithms in different combinations.

TAOCP is on my amazon wishlist ...

So that\'s what this power-supply is. A \"homework exercise\".

Again, this is more of a \"homework project(tm)\". Yeah, it\'s been done a
million times; yeah, I could just buy a linear regulator IC ...

If you scale down your current requirement, you can make a crude
regulator with a *stiff* input filter, a biased zener and a pass
transistor. The zener is chosen to be a diode drop (the base-emitter
junction of the pass transistor) above the desired voltage. It
drives the base of the (NPN) pass transistor -- which gives you
current gain. The diode drop from base to emitter \"subtracts\"
that from the zener voltage to give you the desired output
voltage.

I don\'t even really have a \"current requirement\" yet. But I have a ton
of transistors in the 200 mA range, so I was figuring 100-125 mA max for
the initial learning and poking around with the analyzer and hopefully
_FINALLY_ pinning down transistors-as-voltage-sources, make something a
little more permanent and still cheap.

You\'ll be limited in applications, at that current level.

Yeah, but I also have everything on hand to complete that this weekend
(I think). If it turns out I misplaced that stepdown transformer in my
recent move, well then I\'ll just toss in a couple of big power
transistors, like the 2N3055 when I order one...

Also, for a linear, you will have to be wary of the total
power that the package can dissipate. E.g., if you are
pulling 100mA *through* the transistor and dropping
(on average) 10V *across* it, then you\'re dissipating
1W in the device (100mA * 10V).

This is how you come to realize the downside of linear
regulators! :

On the upside they\'re near on dead silent (I think).

Who cares if I pop a transistor or twenty in a home-made bench supply
that I have the full schematics and notes for, as opposed to something
that\'s un-fixable because it came from Amazon, and is super-complex
inside?

Well, if you \"pop\" them so often that the PS proves to be un-useful...

More that I\'m less concerned about blowing that on a potentially sketchy
circuit than something I can\'t fix because I need some unobtanium
part...

Ages ago, there was a \"teaching toy\" (LECTOR or something like that)
that consisted of discretes packaged in little plastic \"sugar
cubes\" with contacts on the sides and schematic symbol on top.
A magnet held each to a metallic base. So, you could \"wire\"
a circuit SCHEMATICALLY just by abutting these little sugar
cubes and see it work.

Sounds a bit like that \"200-in-one Electronics Experiments\" that I had
as a kid.

IIRC, those were the things with \"lots of springs\" that you used to
*wire* components together. So, ALL of the components were visible
in your design (not just the ones you were using). And, a tangle of
wires atop them for interconnects.

Yep. But it was fun for a kid in either case.

This was considerably slicker. As you positioned the \"sugar cubes\"
together, the schematic of the circuit you were building was visible.
I.e., a \"diode sugarcube\" had a symbol of a diode on top of the
sugarcube with leads heading off to the two opposing sides that
had the metallic contacts on them. Ditto for a resistor. So,
\"wiring\" a resistor in series with a diode involved positioning
the two sugarcubes adjacent to each other, their \"side contacts\"
abutting, and you would then see a schematic with those two
elements visible on their top surfaces. You never had to trace
PHYSICAL wires to figure out what the circuit was doing.

oh, that is slick

As I recall, the analog will do +/- 15 volts. As I recall, it\'s absolute
maximum rating is slightly higher (25 volts or so).

Worst case after I double-check the datasheet, I have to get something
like from Rigol.

Picking up an old Tek 465 might be a more economical option.

Quick check through ebay listings has them about the same price-point,
but I\'ll keep my eye out. There is something to be said for having a
\"new\" device (with warranty, etc.)

[...]
Quite so. But C doesn\'t really have much more in the \'aha\' space for

C can be interesting if you start trying to adopt different
programming practices. E.g., most of my current project is coded
in C but is entirely object-based. And, objects are referenced by
something akin to file handles.

Sure, but there\'s only so much one can do on a micro, especially one
that doesn\'t have much (anything) in the way of \"external connectivity\"
(okay, sure, someone could _take_ it, but meh)


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|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

 

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:29 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

Yep. And at the end of the day, when I memorized my 1-12 times tables in
grade school \"because you won\'t always have a calculator in your
pocket!\" ...

That\'s a different sort of skillset -- one that is more universal.
(we didn\'t have calculators when I was a kid. And, we also had to
memorize the squares up to 20! As well as the preamble to the
constitution, etc. -- never know when THAT might come in handy :< )

Yeah, math was a bad example. It\'s more akin to when I had to write
half a dozen sorting algorithms in programming classes. They were a
pain in the butt, and had almost zero practical application outside of
\"homework exercise\".

Don\'t be dismissive of them. Each algorithm has different characteristics
and cost-benefits, depending on what you are trying to sort. E.g., adding
one item to a sorted list is different than sorting a \"random\" list.

Oh, I\'m not. But I meant the _writing_ of one of those algorithms \"in
the real world\" is generally not done -- a parallel to your \"nobody
builds a powersupply\".

Knuth wrote a series of tomes covering most of the \"basic\" algorithms.
Surprisingly, much software is just a rearranging of these core
algorithms in different combinations.

TAOCP is on my amazon wishlist ...

So that\'s what this power-supply is. A \"homework exercise\".

Again, this is more of a \"homework project(tm)\". Yeah, it\'s been done a
million times; yeah, I could just buy a linear regulator IC ...

If you scale down your current requirement, you can make a crude
regulator with a *stiff* input filter, a biased zener and a pass
transistor. The zener is chosen to be a diode drop (the base-emitter
junction of the pass transistor) above the desired voltage. It
drives the base of the (NPN) pass transistor -- which gives you
current gain. The diode drop from base to emitter \"subtracts\"
that from the zener voltage to give you the desired output
voltage.

I don\'t even really have a \"current requirement\" yet. But I have a ton
of transistors in the 200 mA range, so I was figuring 100-125 mA max for
the initial learning and poking around with the analyzer and hopefully
_FINALLY_ pinning down transistors-as-voltage-sources, make something a
little more permanent and still cheap.

You\'ll be limited in applications, at that current level.

Yeah, but I also have everything on hand to complete that this weekend
(I think). If it turns out I misplaced that stepdown transformer in my
recent move, well then I\'ll just toss in a couple of big power
transistors, like the 2N3055 when I order one...

Also, for a linear, you will have to be wary of the total
power that the package can dissipate. E.g., if you are
pulling 100mA *through* the transistor and dropping
(on average) 10V *across* it, then you\'re dissipating
1W in the device (100mA * 10V).

This is how you come to realize the downside of linear
regulators! :

On the upside they\'re near on dead silent (I think).

Who cares if I pop a transistor or twenty in a home-made bench supply
that I have the full schematics and notes for, as opposed to something
that\'s un-fixable because it came from Amazon, and is super-complex
inside?

Well, if you \"pop\" them so often that the PS proves to be un-useful...

More that I\'m less concerned about blowing that on a potentially sketchy
circuit than something I can\'t fix because I need some unobtanium
part...

Ages ago, there was a \"teaching toy\" (LECTOR or something like that)
that consisted of discretes packaged in little plastic \"sugar
cubes\" with contacts on the sides and schematic symbol on top.
A magnet held each to a metallic base. So, you could \"wire\"
a circuit SCHEMATICALLY just by abutting these little sugar
cubes and see it work.

Sounds a bit like that \"200-in-one Electronics Experiments\" that I had
as a kid.

IIRC, those were the things with \"lots of springs\" that you used to
*wire* components together. So, ALL of the components were visible
in your design (not just the ones you were using). And, a tangle of
wires atop them for interconnects.

Yep. But it was fun for a kid in either case.

This was considerably slicker. As you positioned the \"sugar cubes\"
together, the schematic of the circuit you were building was visible.
I.e., a \"diode sugarcube\" had a symbol of a diode on top of the
sugarcube with leads heading off to the two opposing sides that
had the metallic contacts on them. Ditto for a resistor. So,
\"wiring\" a resistor in series with a diode involved positioning
the two sugarcubes adjacent to each other, their \"side contacts\"
abutting, and you would then see a schematic with those two
elements visible on their top surfaces. You never had to trace
PHYSICAL wires to figure out what the circuit was doing.

oh, that is slick

As I recall, the analog will do +/- 15 volts. As I recall, it\'s absolute
maximum rating is slightly higher (25 volts or so).

Worst case after I double-check the datasheet, I have to get something
like from Rigol.

Picking up an old Tek 465 might be a more economical option.

Quick check through ebay listings has them about the same price-point,
but I\'ll keep my eye out. There is something to be said for having a
\"new\" device (with warranty, etc.)

[...]
Quite so. But C doesn\'t really have much more in the \'aha\' space for

C can be interesting if you start trying to adopt different
programming practices. E.g., most of my current project is coded
in C but is entirely object-based. And, objects are referenced by
something akin to file handles.

Sure, but there\'s only so much one can do on a micro, especially one
that doesn\'t have much (anything) in the way of \"external connectivity\"
(okay, sure, someone could _take_ it, but meh)


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|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

 

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 10:29 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

Yep. And at the end of the day, when I memorized my 1-12 times tables in
grade school \"because you won\'t always have a calculator in your
pocket!\" ...

That\'s a different sort of skillset -- one that is more universal.
(we didn\'t have calculators when I was a kid. And, we also had to
memorize the squares up to 20! As well as the preamble to the
constitution, etc. -- never know when THAT might come in handy :< )

Yeah, math was a bad example. It\'s more akin to when I had to write
half a dozen sorting algorithms in programming classes. They were a
pain in the butt, and had almost zero practical application outside of
\"homework exercise\".

Don\'t be dismissive of them. Each algorithm has different characteristics
and cost-benefits, depending on what you are trying to sort. E.g., adding
one item to a sorted list is different than sorting a \"random\" list.

Oh, I\'m not. But I meant the _writing_ of one of those algorithms \"in
the real world\" is generally not done -- a parallel to your \"nobody
builds a powersupply\".

Knuth wrote a series of tomes covering most of the \"basic\" algorithms.
Surprisingly, much software is just a rearranging of these core
algorithms in different combinations.

TAOCP is on my amazon wishlist ...

So that\'s what this power-supply is. A \"homework exercise\".

Again, this is more of a \"homework project(tm)\". Yeah, it\'s been done a
million times; yeah, I could just buy a linear regulator IC ...

If you scale down your current requirement, you can make a crude
regulator with a *stiff* input filter, a biased zener and a pass
transistor. The zener is chosen to be a diode drop (the base-emitter
junction of the pass transistor) above the desired voltage. It
drives the base of the (NPN) pass transistor -- which gives you
current gain. The diode drop from base to emitter \"subtracts\"
that from the zener voltage to give you the desired output
voltage.

I don\'t even really have a \"current requirement\" yet. But I have a ton
of transistors in the 200 mA range, so I was figuring 100-125 mA max for
the initial learning and poking around with the analyzer and hopefully
_FINALLY_ pinning down transistors-as-voltage-sources, make something a
little more permanent and still cheap.

You\'ll be limited in applications, at that current level.

Yeah, but I also have everything on hand to complete that this weekend
(I think). If it turns out I misplaced that stepdown transformer in my
recent move, well then I\'ll just toss in a couple of big power
transistors, like the 2N3055 when I order one...

Also, for a linear, you will have to be wary of the total
power that the package can dissipate. E.g., if you are
pulling 100mA *through* the transistor and dropping
(on average) 10V *across* it, then you\'re dissipating
1W in the device (100mA * 10V).

This is how you come to realize the downside of linear
regulators! :

On the upside they\'re near on dead silent (I think).

Who cares if I pop a transistor or twenty in a home-made bench supply
that I have the full schematics and notes for, as opposed to something
that\'s un-fixable because it came from Amazon, and is super-complex
inside?

Well, if you \"pop\" them so often that the PS proves to be un-useful...

More that I\'m less concerned about blowing that on a potentially sketchy
circuit than something I can\'t fix because I need some unobtanium
part...

Ages ago, there was a \"teaching toy\" (LECTOR or something like that)
that consisted of discretes packaged in little plastic \"sugar
cubes\" with contacts on the sides and schematic symbol on top.
A magnet held each to a metallic base. So, you could \"wire\"
a circuit SCHEMATICALLY just by abutting these little sugar
cubes and see it work.

Sounds a bit like that \"200-in-one Electronics Experiments\" that I had
as a kid.

IIRC, those were the things with \"lots of springs\" that you used to
*wire* components together. So, ALL of the components were visible
in your design (not just the ones you were using). And, a tangle of
wires atop them for interconnects.

Yep. But it was fun for a kid in either case.

This was considerably slicker. As you positioned the \"sugar cubes\"
together, the schematic of the circuit you were building was visible.
I.e., a \"diode sugarcube\" had a symbol of a diode on top of the
sugarcube with leads heading off to the two opposing sides that
had the metallic contacts on them. Ditto for a resistor. So,
\"wiring\" a resistor in series with a diode involved positioning
the two sugarcubes adjacent to each other, their \"side contacts\"
abutting, and you would then see a schematic with those two
elements visible on their top surfaces. You never had to trace
PHYSICAL wires to figure out what the circuit was doing.

oh, that is slick

As I recall, the analog will do +/- 15 volts. As I recall, it\'s absolute
maximum rating is slightly higher (25 volts or so).

Worst case after I double-check the datasheet, I have to get something
like from Rigol.

Picking up an old Tek 465 might be a more economical option.

Quick check through ebay listings has them about the same price-point,
but I\'ll keep my eye out. There is something to be said for having a
\"new\" device (with warranty, etc.)

[...]
Quite so. But C doesn\'t really have much more in the \'aha\' space for

C can be interesting if you start trying to adopt different
programming practices. E.g., most of my current project is coded
in C but is entirely object-based. And, objects are referenced by
something akin to file handles.

Sure, but there\'s only so much one can do on a micro, especially one
that doesn\'t have much (anything) in the way of \"external connectivity\"
(okay, sure, someone could _take_ it, but meh)


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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Jan 2023 11:44:32 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<l57mrhtf7f160aol86iru5r7o2h6hqmnc0@4ax.com>:

Why buy cheap junk test equipment?

Why buy cheap junk anything?

Why buy your stuff?

I am happy with my cheap meters, other Chinese made equipmnet I have
so are thousands if not millions others,

Your definition of \'junk\' is so vague that your own stuff may fall into it.

A SANE person looks at it case by case.
If it works its OK.

Take my Tecsun PL600 radio, it is so good that I would have be proud if I had designed
it and build it,
but could not have made it for the about 35 (at that time) dollars it was on ebay.
You could not have designed it.
And my Baofeng,

And my digital mutimeters
And my satellite receivers.

Nothing is perfect.
Yes the test leads of the multimeters seem to be made of plastic that eventually breaks,
But I have 4, so ....
3 for what I payed for coffee and pie plus a tip last week in the city (10 Euro == 10 dollars).
You self overrated \'merricans need to produce cheaper and better to compete.
Had to repair my washing machine and my dryer several times because the power supply design sucks!
Pestering others with sanctions put you on level with the mafia that you really are
now war mongering in the world to sell your weapons crap (F35 etc).
End of the world? Even the Mafiosi get locked up eventually.
Keep asking for it.

Some of your cars are junk, and you know it.
Not even mentioning that one made by who was once the richest man in the world...
thousands for a battery fix..

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Jan 2023 11:44:32 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<l57mrhtf7f160aol86iru5r7o2h6hqmnc0@4ax.com>:

Why buy cheap junk test equipment?

Why buy cheap junk anything?

Why buy your stuff?

I am happy with my cheap meters, other Chinese made equipmnet I have
so are thousands if not millions others,

Your definition of \'junk\' is so vague that your own stuff may fall into it.

A SANE person looks at it case by case.
If it works its OK.

Take my Tecsun PL600 radio, it is so good that I would have be proud if I had designed
it and build it,
but could not have made it for the about 35 (at that time) dollars it was on ebay.
You could not have designed it.
And my Baofeng,

And my digital mutimeters
And my satellite receivers.

Nothing is perfect.
Yes the test leads of the multimeters seem to be made of plastic that eventually breaks,
But I have 4, so ....
3 for what I payed for coffee and pie plus a tip last week in the city (10 Euro == 10 dollars).
You self overrated \'merricans need to produce cheaper and better to compete.
Had to repair my washing machine and my dryer several times because the power supply design sucks!
Pestering others with sanctions put you on level with the mafia that you really are
now war mongering in the world to sell your weapons crap (F35 etc).
End of the world? Even the Mafiosi get locked up eventually.
Keep asking for it.

Some of your cars are junk, and you know it.
Not even mentioning that one made by who was once the richest man in the world...
thousands for a battery fix..

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 08 Jan 2023 11:44:32 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<l57mrhtf7f160aol86iru5r7o2h6hqmnc0@4ax.com>:

Why buy cheap junk test equipment?

Why buy cheap junk anything?

Why buy your stuff?

I am happy with my cheap meters, other Chinese made equipmnet I have
so are thousands if not millions others,

Your definition of \'junk\' is so vague that your own stuff may fall into it.

A SANE person looks at it case by case.
If it works its OK.

Take my Tecsun PL600 radio, it is so good that I would have be proud if I had designed
it and build it,
but could not have made it for the about 35 (at that time) dollars it was on ebay.
You could not have designed it.
And my Baofeng,

And my digital mutimeters
And my satellite receivers.

Nothing is perfect.
Yes the test leads of the multimeters seem to be made of plastic that eventually breaks,
But I have 4, so ....
3 for what I payed for coffee and pie plus a tip last week in the city (10 Euro == 10 dollars).
You self overrated \'merricans need to produce cheaper and better to compete.
Had to repair my washing machine and my dryer several times because the power supply design sucks!
Pestering others with sanctions put you on level with the mafia that you really are
now war mongering in the world to sell your weapons crap (F35 etc).
End of the world? Even the Mafiosi get locked up eventually.
Keep asking for it.

Some of your cars are junk, and you know it.
Not even mentioning that one made by who was once the richest man in the world...
thousands for a battery fix..

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2023 11:03:48 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

Am 11.01.23 um 05:21 schrieb Don Y:
On 1/10/2023 9:05 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
On the third point, I don\'t think he was wrong, just very narrow
minded.  In
one of my digital logic design courses various methods of gate
minimization\'
were beat into us (K-maps, prime implicates, etc).  Thought it was
foolish,
after all, IC gates were cheap, fast, plentiful.  Twenty years later I
remember doing gate minimization for PALs....

The same techniques are applicable to software -- where \"gates\"
are NOT plentiful.  Building a DFA with redundant states is
likely NOT to be recognized as optimizable by the compiler.
So, having the skillset to do the minimization is an asset.

\"Programmers\" likely never learn this technology.

I have made a VHDL triple module redundancy library that looks
much like std_logic, std_logic_vector, un/signed and has mostly
all error detection / correction hidden under the hood.

Would you assume that parts of an FPGA have random failures, like
discrete logic would? Transient or radiation upsets maybe.

A clock net or bias failure breaks everything. I/O paths to pins
ditto.

We assume that FPGAs don\'t break. Some things, like sinc3 filters,
would never recover.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2023 11:03:48 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

Am 11.01.23 um 05:21 schrieb Don Y:
On 1/10/2023 9:05 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
On the third point, I don\'t think he was wrong, just very narrow
minded.  In
one of my digital logic design courses various methods of gate
minimization\'
were beat into us (K-maps, prime implicates, etc).  Thought it was
foolish,
after all, IC gates were cheap, fast, plentiful.  Twenty years later I
remember doing gate minimization for PALs....

The same techniques are applicable to software -- where \"gates\"
are NOT plentiful.  Building a DFA with redundant states is
likely NOT to be recognized as optimizable by the compiler.
So, having the skillset to do the minimization is an asset.

\"Programmers\" likely never learn this technology.

I have made a VHDL triple module redundancy library that looks
much like std_logic, std_logic_vector, un/signed and has mostly
all error detection / correction hidden under the hood.

Would you assume that parts of an FPGA have random failures, like
discrete logic would? Transient or radiation upsets maybe.

A clock net or bias failure breaks everything. I/O paths to pins
ditto.

We assume that FPGAs don\'t break. Some things, like sinc3 filters,
would never recover.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2023 11:03:48 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

Am 11.01.23 um 05:21 schrieb Don Y:
On 1/10/2023 9:05 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
On the third point, I don\'t think he was wrong, just very narrow
minded.  In
one of my digital logic design courses various methods of gate
minimization\'
were beat into us (K-maps, prime implicates, etc).  Thought it was
foolish,
after all, IC gates were cheap, fast, plentiful.  Twenty years later I
remember doing gate minimization for PALs....

The same techniques are applicable to software -- where \"gates\"
are NOT plentiful.  Building a DFA with redundant states is
likely NOT to be recognized as optimizable by the compiler.
So, having the skillset to do the minimization is an asset.

\"Programmers\" likely never learn this technology.

I have made a VHDL triple module redundancy library that looks
much like std_logic, std_logic_vector, un/signed and has mostly
all error detection / correction hidden under the hood.

Would you assume that parts of an FPGA have random failures, like
discrete logic would? Transient or radiation upsets maybe.

A clock net or bias failure breaks everything. I/O paths to pins
ditto.

We assume that FPGAs don\'t break. Some things, like sinc3 filters,
would never recover.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:35:06 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
<33e68402-9e57-b518-bc34-17c0d8845be1@electrooptical.net>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 08:39:59 -0500) it happened Phil Hops wrote

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:20:44 +0000) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <tp3gdi$1ra1$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 02/01/2023 19:21, Jan Panteltje wrote:
My website hosting company \"Godaddy.com\" moved to Microsoft for my email.
What a lot of crap that is!! The old pop-email no longer works,
pop-email took a second here for incoming to add to my email system that goes back to 1998.

Are you sure about that?
Is it a very recent thing (as in failed 27/12/22 by any chance?)


POP worked fine on MS Office 365/Outlook with the server settings here:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/pop-imap-and-smtp-settings-8361e398-8af4-4e97-b147-6c6c4ac95353

interesting
but godddy has done more things wrong, this was the limit
1) they would re-encode my JPG pictures so it would take less space on their server
but then people could not read my circuit diagrams..

(Talk about leading with your chin!)

Were you trying to commi-nukate something?


It\'s a boxing expression. Normally a boxer takes the first punch with
his right or left fist. \"Leading with your chin\" means putting your
chin in first, i.e. just asking to be knocked out.

In this case, the far-famed illegibility of your schematics is the
\"chin\" in question. Capiche?

I did look up the expression with google before I replied to you in your
photo cell, some very different explanations are given,
one of those is \'being aggressive\'..
I get the origin now.
I am still learning you earthling\'s stuff,


Of course studying my circuit diagrams does require some knowledge of tronix..

Well, that re-encode was one reason I could read them and others not.
It surfaced when I downloaded my picture from my website and a 10 MB picture
of the circuit diagram was reduced to a 1 MB one or something.
Further test with new pictures gave the same effect.
They changed server hosting company after that I think...
I have posted about that here.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
(Who obviously needs to be more explicit when teasing ESL folks.)

No is OK,
I can lead with chin, have laser sword!

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:35:06 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
<33e68402-9e57-b518-bc34-17c0d8845be1@electrooptical.net>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 08:39:59 -0500) it happened Phil Hops wrote

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:20:44 +0000) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <tp3gdi$1ra1$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 02/01/2023 19:21, Jan Panteltje wrote:
My website hosting company \"Godaddy.com\" moved to Microsoft for my email.
What a lot of crap that is!! The old pop-email no longer works,
pop-email took a second here for incoming to add to my email system that goes back to 1998.

Are you sure about that?
Is it a very recent thing (as in failed 27/12/22 by any chance?)


POP worked fine on MS Office 365/Outlook with the server settings here:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/pop-imap-and-smtp-settings-8361e398-8af4-4e97-b147-6c6c4ac95353

interesting
but godddy has done more things wrong, this was the limit
1) they would re-encode my JPG pictures so it would take less space on their server
but then people could not read my circuit diagrams..

(Talk about leading with your chin!)

Were you trying to commi-nukate something?


It\'s a boxing expression. Normally a boxer takes the first punch with
his right or left fist. \"Leading with your chin\" means putting your
chin in first, i.e. just asking to be knocked out.

In this case, the far-famed illegibility of your schematics is the
\"chin\" in question. Capiche?

I did look up the expression with google before I replied to you in your
photo cell, some very different explanations are given,
one of those is \'being aggressive\'..
I get the origin now.
I am still learning you earthling\'s stuff,


Of course studying my circuit diagrams does require some knowledge of tronix..

Well, that re-encode was one reason I could read them and others not.
It surfaced when I downloaded my picture from my website and a 10 MB picture
of the circuit diagram was reduced to a 1 MB one or something.
Further test with new pictures gave the same effect.
They changed server hosting company after that I think...
I have posted about that here.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
(Who obviously needs to be more explicit when teasing ESL folks.)

No is OK,
I can lead with chin, have laser sword!

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:35:06 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
<33e68402-9e57-b518-bc34-17c0d8845be1@electrooptical.net>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 08:39:59 -0500) it happened Phil Hops wrote

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 09:20:44 +0000) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <tp3gdi$1ra1$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

On 02/01/2023 19:21, Jan Panteltje wrote:
My website hosting company \"Godaddy.com\" moved to Microsoft for my email.
What a lot of crap that is!! The old pop-email no longer works,
pop-email took a second here for incoming to add to my email system that goes back to 1998.

Are you sure about that?
Is it a very recent thing (as in failed 27/12/22 by any chance?)


POP worked fine on MS Office 365/Outlook with the server settings here:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/pop-imap-and-smtp-settings-8361e398-8af4-4e97-b147-6c6c4ac95353

interesting
but godddy has done more things wrong, this was the limit
1) they would re-encode my JPG pictures so it would take less space on their server
but then people could not read my circuit diagrams..

(Talk about leading with your chin!)

Were you trying to commi-nukate something?


It\'s a boxing expression. Normally a boxer takes the first punch with
his right or left fist. \"Leading with your chin\" means putting your
chin in first, i.e. just asking to be knocked out.

In this case, the far-famed illegibility of your schematics is the
\"chin\" in question. Capiche?

I did look up the expression with google before I replied to you in your
photo cell, some very different explanations are given,
one of those is \'being aggressive\'..
I get the origin now.
I am still learning you earthling\'s stuff,


Of course studying my circuit diagrams does require some knowledge of tronix..

Well, that re-encode was one reason I could read them and others not.
It surfaced when I downloaded my picture from my website and a 10 MB picture
of the circuit diagram was reduced to a 1 MB one or something.
Further test with new pictures gave the same effect.
They changed server hosting company after that I think...
I have posted about that here.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
(Who obviously needs to be more explicit when teasing ESL folks.)

No is OK,
I can lead with chin, have laser sword!

 

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 8:17:19 PM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote:

whit3rd wrote:

[about FFT/divide/inverseFFT deconvolution]

The theorem that least-sum-of-squared-difference is best, is
(see Matthews and Walker for the full treatment) easily derived
by assuming a Gaussian noise profile.
Soooo, exactly why is it best? Name dropping isn\'t an argument.

If you don\'t have the book, it goes like this: when each data point D_i(t)
has associated a Gaussian error distribution (exp(-s^2 /(sigma^2)), then
the most likely fit of a function to the data is that which maximizes the
joint probability given by the product over \"i\" of (exp(-(D_i - F_i)^2/(sigma_i^2)).
Maximizing the product of an exponential is the same as maximizing the
sum of those negative squared deviations.
So, least-squares fitting with a statistical weight to each square of 1/(sigma_i^2)
is correct to all orders in error with that Gaussian character.
By the central limit theorem, we know Gaussian noise is often to be expected.
And, with small noise, the other higher-order error distribution elements (cubic = skew,
quartic = curtosis, etc.) will never dominate, but the lowest order (square-law deviation sigma)
does. That means other-than-Gaussian noise, if small, has the same exact-solution as
the the Gaussian.

The FFT algorithm DOES assume the same noise level, OR is an incorrect
fit in the minimum-least-squares sense.
Listen, man, the FFT just takes a finite-length sampled function and
transforms it to and from the discrete frequency domain. In itself, it
has nothing to do with fitting, or least squares, or noise,

....
Yeah, it does encourage the user to toss his error estimate into the bit bucket
and just proceed without noise-statistics anywhere in mind. That\'s
not because it\'s a good solution, it\'s because it is a procedural error
for anyone analyzing term-by-term noise character of data.

... If you don\'t
account for the effects of the finite length of the transform,
specifically overlap errors due to failing to zero-pad, you\'ll wind up
with nonsense. But that isn\'t the FFT\'s fault.

False. The discrete FFT is exactly a matrix; there aren\'t any ways to implement
weighted coefficients in that matrix operation, because there\'s no statistical-weight input.
You need to know that sigma-squared is sometimes big after the division-by-zero step,
but the FFT algorithm throws that knowledge away. That encourages nonsense results.

 

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 8:17:19 PM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote:

whit3rd wrote:

[about FFT/divide/inverseFFT deconvolution]

The theorem that least-sum-of-squared-difference is best, is
(see Matthews and Walker for the full treatment) easily derived
by assuming a Gaussian noise profile.
Soooo, exactly why is it best? Name dropping isn\'t an argument.

If you don\'t have the book, it goes like this: when each data point D_i(t)
has associated a Gaussian error distribution (exp(-s^2 /(sigma^2)), then
the most likely fit of a function to the data is that which maximizes the
joint probability given by the product over \"i\" of (exp(-(D_i - F_i)^2/(sigma_i^2)).
Maximizing the product of an exponential is the same as maximizing the
sum of those negative squared deviations.
So, least-squares fitting with a statistical weight to each square of 1/(sigma_i^2)
is correct to all orders in error with that Gaussian character.
By the central limit theorem, we know Gaussian noise is often to be expected.
And, with small noise, the other higher-order error distribution elements (cubic = skew,
quartic = curtosis, etc.) will never dominate, but the lowest order (square-law deviation sigma)
does. That means other-than-Gaussian noise, if small, has the same exact-solution as
the the Gaussian.

The FFT algorithm DOES assume the same noise level, OR is an incorrect
fit in the minimum-least-squares sense.
Listen, man, the FFT just takes a finite-length sampled function and
transforms it to and from the discrete frequency domain. In itself, it
has nothing to do with fitting, or least squares, or noise,

....
Yeah, it does encourage the user to toss his error estimate into the bit bucket
and just proceed without noise-statistics anywhere in mind. That\'s
not because it\'s a good solution, it\'s because it is a procedural error
for anyone analyzing term-by-term noise character of data.

... If you don\'t
account for the effects of the finite length of the transform,
specifically overlap errors due to failing to zero-pad, you\'ll wind up
with nonsense. But that isn\'t the FFT\'s fault.

False. The discrete FFT is exactly a matrix; there aren\'t any ways to implement
weighted coefficients in that matrix operation, because there\'s no statistical-weight input.
You need to know that sigma-squared is sometimes big after the division-by-zero step,
but the FFT algorithm throws that knowledge away. That encourages nonsense results.

 

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 8:17:19 PM UTC-8, Phil Hobbs wrote:

whit3rd wrote:

[about FFT/divide/inverseFFT deconvolution]

The theorem that least-sum-of-squared-difference is best, is
(see Matthews and Walker for the full treatment) easily derived
by assuming a Gaussian noise profile.
Soooo, exactly why is it best? Name dropping isn\'t an argument.

If you don\'t have the book, it goes like this: when each data point D_i(t)
has associated a Gaussian error distribution (exp(-s^2 /(sigma^2)), then
the most likely fit of a function to the data is that which maximizes the
joint probability given by the product over \"i\" of (exp(-(D_i - F_i)^2/(sigma_i^2)).
Maximizing the product of an exponential is the same as maximizing the
sum of those negative squared deviations.
So, least-squares fitting with a statistical weight to each square of 1/(sigma_i^2)
is correct to all orders in error with that Gaussian character.
By the central limit theorem, we know Gaussian noise is often to be expected.
And, with small noise, the other higher-order error distribution elements (cubic = skew,
quartic = curtosis, etc.) will never dominate, but the lowest order (square-law deviation sigma)
does. That means other-than-Gaussian noise, if small, has the same exact-solution as
the the Gaussian.

The FFT algorithm DOES assume the same noise level, OR is an incorrect
fit in the minimum-least-squares sense.
Listen, man, the FFT just takes a finite-length sampled function and
transforms it to and from the discrete frequency domain. In itself, it
has nothing to do with fitting, or least squares, or noise,

....
Yeah, it does encourage the user to toss his error estimate into the bit bucket
and just proceed without noise-statistics anywhere in mind. That\'s
not because it\'s a good solution, it\'s because it is a procedural error
for anyone analyzing term-by-term noise character of data.

... If you don\'t
account for the effects of the finite length of the transform,
specifically overlap errors due to failing to zero-pad, you\'ll wind up
with nonsense. But that isn\'t the FFT\'s fault.

False. The discrete FFT is exactly a matrix; there aren\'t any ways to implement
weighted coefficients in that matrix operation, because there\'s no statistical-weight input.
You need to know that sigma-squared is sometimes big after the division-by-zero step,
but the FFT algorithm throws that knowledge away. That encourages nonsense results.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 06/01/2023 22:02, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2023-01-06 22:12, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 18:36:47 -0000 (UTC), \"Don\" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

c++ reminds me of this:

C++ -> The COBOL of the 90s:
https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf


I have people who love abstraction for its own sake and want to use
C++ in realtime embedded apps. They won\'t.


Hey, people do just that here! I was flabbergasted when my 50 lines of
C++ RT program turned out to compile into a 6MB executable. That\'s
after stripping the symbol table. With it, it weighed 60MB! Crazy.

It tends to come in very big chunks including friends of friends if you
don\'t have your own small custom IO library(s).

Any of my \'normal\' C programs produce between 10 and 20 bytes of
executable per line of source code.

But they still get a lot bigger if you use classic stdio etc.
Just not quite as humongous as C++ tends to get.

The main thing I use C++ for is operator overloading so that certain
compound user types can be used in equation like constructs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 06/01/2023 22:02, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2023-01-06 22:12, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 18:36:47 -0000 (UTC), \"Don\" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

c++ reminds me of this:

C++ -> The COBOL of the 90s:
https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf


I have people who love abstraction for its own sake and want to use
C++ in realtime embedded apps. They won\'t.


Hey, people do just that here! I was flabbergasted when my 50 lines of
C++ RT program turned out to compile into a 6MB executable. That\'s
after stripping the symbol table. With it, it weighed 60MB! Crazy.

It tends to come in very big chunks including friends of friends if you
don\'t have your own small custom IO library(s).

Any of my \'normal\' C programs produce between 10 and 20 bytes of
executable per line of source code.

But they still get a lot bigger if you use classic stdio etc.
Just not quite as humongous as C++ tends to get.

The main thing I use C++ for is operator overloading so that certain
compound user types can be used in equation like constructs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 06/01/2023 22:02, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2023-01-06 22:12, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 18:36:47 -0000 (UTC), \"Don\" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

c++ reminds me of this:

C++ -> The COBOL of the 90s:
https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf


I have people who love abstraction for its own sake and want to use
C++ in realtime embedded apps. They won\'t.


Hey, people do just that here! I was flabbergasted when my 50 lines of
C++ RT program turned out to compile into a 6MB executable. That\'s
after stripping the symbol table. With it, it weighed 60MB! Crazy.

It tends to come in very big chunks including friends of friends if you
don\'t have your own small custom IO library(s).

Any of my \'normal\' C programs produce between 10 and 20 bytes of
executable per line of source code.

But they still get a lot bigger if you use classic stdio etc.
Just not quite as humongous as C++ tends to get.

The main thing I use C++ for is operator overloading so that certain
compound user types can be used in equation like constructs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown