Massive power failures hit United States and Canada

[Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun]

In article <vkhf7l6703do48@corp.supernews.com>, rcrowley7@xprt.net
mentioned...

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Um, whats an RPG ?!

Rocket-Propelled Grenade
Google is your friend.

Yeah, buit I tried that, too, and came up with 4.8 million hits on
role playing games. So in this case, the RPG that he meant got lost
in the crowd.


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@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

 

[Rich Webb]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:26:11 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
<rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Um, whats an RPG ?!

Rocket-Propelled Grenade
Google is your friend.

No, wouldn't that be GIYF? Although there is a "G" in RPG, so that must
be the "Google" part. Can't make out the "RP" encoding, though. What
language is that?

(Sorry. Just trying to delay going out to mow the lawn for a few more
minutes...)

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

 

[Andre]

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote in message news:<vkhf7l6703do48@corp.supernews.com>...

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Um, whats an RPG ?!

Rocket-Propelled Grenade
Google is your friend.

Ok thanks

Hmm . Thermite grenades with timers . Nasty ...

-A

 

[Zak]

Andre wrote:

"There were fluctuations hours before the failure" . Sounds like a
positive feedback effect caused the problem .

e.g. so many control systems trying to compensate for the original
glitch, due to the sheer size of the grid it began oscillating at a
low frequency which built up and finally caused a system failure .

I'd think the consuming part may play a role too. I suspect consumers of
power increasingly have 'negative AC resistance' properties. Computer
power supplies output constant power, but so may electronic fluorescent
ballasts and 'inverter' driven A/C (i.e. frequency converted from an
intermediary DC supply).

Have anough of this type of load, and a brownout will lead to collapse,
I suppose.

As for the financial reasons: it is much more profitable to deliver
power 90% of the time and forget about peaks. In Europe, power on the
spot market during the hot days was about triple that of the normal
rate. High consumption, little cooling water... Cheaper to have it go
out then...


Thomas

 

[Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun]

In article <Hp44b.1014$P51.1353@amstwist00>, Zak@spam.invalid
mentioned...

Andre wrote:

"There were fluctuations hours before the failure" . Sounds like a
positive feedback effect caused the problem .

e.g. so many control systems trying to compensate for the original
glitch, due to the sheer size of the grid it began oscillating at a
low frequency which built up and finally caused a system failure .

I'd think the consuming part may play a role too. I suspect consumers of
power increasingly have 'negative AC resistance' properties. Computer
power supplies output constant power, but so may electronic fluorescent
ballasts and 'inverter' driven A/C (i.e. frequency converted from an
intermediary DC supply).

Have anough of this type of load, and a brownout will lead to collapse,
I suppose.

As for the financial reasons: it is much more profitable to deliver
power 90% of the time and forget about peaks. In Europe, power on the
spot market during the hot days was about triple that of the normal
rate. High consumption, little cooling water... Cheaper to have it go
out then...

I heard on the news that London had a blackout for a few hours,
nothing as bad as the eastern U.S. But still it's enough to punch a
hole in that person's claim that Europe doesn't have blackouts.

In my own experience, if you look at it micro and not macro, there are
many more power outages caused by local failures than by major
outages. We have had many outages in the last few years at work, all
caused by local failures. Some drunk wraps his SUV around a power
pole and ends up knocking the power out to the whole neighborhood.
It's kind of a kick to watch the 12.5kV lines frying the concrete in
the gutter, or cooking the asphalt. The firemen get out their ropes
and try to move the downed lines out of traffic, and that's always
entertaining. One time a tree trimmer got fried by the HV lines.

Fortunately our computer rooms have a 150 kVA UPS and a 300 kVA
Caterpillar generator as backup. One new years holiday the gen ran
for over a day and a half, used up the whole 300 gallons of fuel so
the tank had to be refilled. Thanks, So. Calif Edison.

Thomas

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

 

[Zak]

Watson A.Name - Watt Sun wrote:

In my own experience, if you look at it micro and not macro, there are
many more power outages caused by local failures than by major
outages. We have had many outages in the last few years at work, all
caused by local failures.

But macro failures have more impact, also on the individual level.

Fortunately our computer rooms have a 150 kVA UPS and a 300 kVA
Caterpillar generator as backup. One new years holiday the gen ran
for over a day and a half, used up the whole 300 gallons of fuel so
the tank had to be refilled. Thanks, So. Calif Edison.

At least you could get fuel. If half the country is down, traffic is
jammed, and everyone is trying to get diesel at the same time, things
may look worse.

Not to mention the difference in supplying extra law enforcement for a
neighbourhood versus for a state or 2.

My employer claims the distribution network they run in the Netherlands
is redundant for most users. Where it is not, a transformer on a truck
can be driven in and wired up. But outages do happen.

Last year an underground cable more or less exploded after a short (I
guess a 3 phase 400/230 volt cable). We were without power for more than
an hour. I guess this happens every few months or so, but affects only a
limited number of blocks. And on that level there is no redundancy for
ordinary households.

Then there was a later outage in november 2002, also partial city, that
took out the power to the internet exchanges and some nearby area. One
of them didn't have UPS facilities at the time (tells you something
about perception of reliability - that location has been in service
since 1996 without dire need for UPSs - though some customers provide
their own) and went down.


Thomas

 

[Ian Stirling]

Watson A.Name - Watt Sun <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:

In article <gw64b.1036$P51.1423@amstwist00>, Zak@spam.invalid
mentioned...
Watson A.Name - Watt Sun wrote:

In my own experience, if you look at it micro and not macro, there are
many more power outages caused by local failures than by major
outages. We have had many outages in the last few years at work, all
caused by local failures.

But macro failures have more impact, also on the individual level.

Well, that was my whole point. If you look at it on the personal
level, the small failures have a greater effect, because there are
many more of them.

But the macro failures are often more serious to the indivudual.
If your power is out, if you can drive half a mile and get fuel, or walk
to an open macdonalds, it's not so bad.

If it's out for an extended period (2-3 days) a lot of people will
be really struggling to cope.
Everything from people having no way to heat water to wash babies, to
the elderly being unable to contact relatives for help due to flat batteries.

If it's very local, there are often ways of doing most of these outside
the home for a few days.

I will note that though I'm in Scotland, some way from the most recent power
cut, I've just bought a generator, which I plan to alter so that I can
run it from petrol, natural gas or the large propane cylinder I have, in
addition to several old car batteries and an inverter, "Just in case".


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