Massive power failures hit United States and Canada

Andre · Aug 14, 2003

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Jim Thompson · Aug 14, 2003

On 14 Aug 2003 14:13:03 -0700, testing_h@yahoo.com (Andre) wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

480)460-2350 | |
| Jim-T@analog_innovations.com Fax

Jim Thompson · Aug 14, 2003

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:46:57 +0000 (UTC), JHB@NOTjita.demon.co.uk (Jim
Backus) wrote:

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:16:35, Jim Thompson
Jim-T@analog_innovations.com> rolled up his sleeves and typed:

On 14 Aug 2003 14:13:03 -0700, testing_h@yahoo.com (Andre) wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Nothing more than grid ripple. One section reaches overload and tries
to get more power from the grid... domino effect.

New York needs a dose of Gray Davis... raise power rates ;-)

I thought that New York's power system had been partially redesigned
since the last time this happened to prevent it happening again?

480)460-2350 | |
| Jim-T@analog_innovations.com Fax

Jim Backus · Aug 15, 2003

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:16:35, Jim Thompson
<Jim-T@analog_innovations.com> rolled up his sleeves and typed:

On 14 Aug 2003 14:13:03 -0700, testing_h@yahoo.com (Andre) wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Nothing more than grid ripple. One section reaches overload and tries
to get more power from the grid... domino effect.

New York needs a dose of Gray Davis... raise power rates ;-)

I thought that New York's power system had been partially redesigned
since the last time this happened to prevent it happening again?

--
Jim Backus OS/2 user
bona fide replies to jimb-thecirclethingy-jita-dp-demon-dp-co-dp-uk
or remove "NOT" from address
remove dashes and make the obvious substitutions for valid email
address

Harry Conover · Aug 15, 2003

Jim Thompson <Jim-T@analog_innovations.com> wrote in message news:<nuunjvchs69jv1llk0eu7ins8j4m0tfolu@4ax.com>...

On 14 Aug 2003 14:13:03 -0700, testing_h@yahoo.com (Andre) wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Nothing more than grid ripple. One section reaches overload and tries
to get more power from the grid... domino effect.

Agree Jim, but the GPU grid controller was funded and installed after
the great NE Blackout of 1966(?) and which was supposed to eliminate
this type of problem in the future.

Could it be that 37 year-old computer controlled technology is no
longer up to the challenge, or is it simply that, incredible as it
seems, local power companys buying cheap power from Niagara Mohawk
simply dropped their guard and let their own boilers get cold?

Harry C.

Mjolinor · Aug 15, 2003

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Having worked on power systems in most parts of the world I am still amazed
that America has any power distribution at all, the whole system runs on
teacakes and is hopelessly designed.

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun · Aug 16, 2003

In article <7ce4e226.0308141800.28945756@posting.google.com>,
hhc314@yahoo.com mentioned...

Jim Thompson <Jim-T@analog_innovations.com> wrote in message news:<nuunjvchs69jv1llk0eu7ins8j4m0tfolu@4ax.com>...
On 14 Aug 2003 14:13:03 -0700, testing_h@yahoo.com (Andre) wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Nothing more than grid ripple. One section reaches overload and tries
to get more power from the grid... domino effect.

Agree Jim, but the GPU grid controller was funded and installed after
the great NE Blackout of 1966(?) and which was supposed to eliminate
this type of problem in the future.

Could it be that 37 year-old computer controlled technology is no
longer up to the challenge, or is it simply that, incredible as it
seems, local power companys buying cheap power from Niagara Mohawk
simply dropped their guard and let their own boilers get cold?

According to the Federal Power Comm. report, in '65, the 'spinning
reserve' steam generators _still_ couldn't get up to power fast enough
to prevent the dominoes from falling in the '65 episode. It's just
not possible to get a boiler and turbine to put out in a matter of
moments.

And the people and investors are not willing to pay the costs of
keeping enough gen capacity online to handle the emergencies such as
this one that might pop up. So I guess you might say that it's how
much they're willing to spend for that last .0001% of reliability.

Harry C.

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Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun · Aug 16, 2003

In article <lW1%a.205$Ps5.42743@newsfep2-gui.server.ntli.net>,
mjolinor@hotmail.com mentioned...

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Having worked on power systems in most parts of the world I am still amazed
that America has any power distribution at all, the whole system runs on
teacakes and is hopelessly designed.

Maybe you could explain that a bit simpler for those of us in the U.S.
that don't know their teacake from their elbow. And you might give a
further explanation on what is wrong with the design.

The way I see it is it's just a matter of money.

The only consolation I have is during the California energy 'shortage'
a few years ago, none of these major blackouts happened, even tho
there might have been a few localized outages, from load shedding.

--
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###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
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goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
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Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
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Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
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Mjolinor · Aug 16, 2003

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Having worked on power systems in most parts of the world I am still
amazed
that America has any power distribution at all, the whole system runs on
teacakes and is hopelessly designed.

Maybe you could explain that a bit simpler for those of us in the U.S.
that don't know their teacake from their elbow. And you might give a
further explanation on what is wrong with the design.

The way I see it is it's just a matter of money.

The only consolation I have is during the California energy 'shortage'
a few years ago, none of these major blackouts happened, even tho
there might have been a few localized outages, from load shedding.

--
It is a matter of money and sadly the privatisation of the power industry in

the UK is changing our power network so that there is no redundancy and the
backup autoswitching facilities are being reduced in number, networks are
driven harder all to give shareholders more dividends (hmm, sounding like a
communist here, not true).

As a specific example of something I have seen while in Kansas. There was a
power line down on a 25kV network and the length of the line was such that
the fault current was not high enough to trip the circuit breaker so the
thing danced around on the floor live until someone saw it and turned it
off.

I think that safety in the US is also not good and as one example of lots
that I have seen, again in Kansas I asked some LV engineers to install a
piece of equipment serially in the power supply to a single house while we
went for lunch. When we came back they had screwed another box to teh
aluminum (aluminium) siding on the house, installed the equipment and used
terminal blocks to connect the wires. They had then just wrapped insulating
tape round the brass block to "keep it safe". I commented on the
unsuitability of this method and the engineer got hold of the wire and shook
it saying it's as safe as houses' at which point the connector caught the
aluminium of the house, cut throught the tape burnt a large hole in the
house and loads of sparks, didn't see much after that as I was about 50
yards away doing a sub 3 minute mile.

Fred Abse · Aug 16, 2003

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:03:13 +0100, Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' wrote:

In article <lW1%a.205$Ps5.42743@newsfep2-gui.server.ntli.net>,
mjolinor@hotmail.com mentioned...

Having worked on power systems in most parts of the world I am still
amazed that America has any power distribution at all, the whole system
runs on teacakes and is hopelessly designed.

Maybe you could explain that a bit simpler for those of us in the U.S.
that don't know their teacake from their elbow.

British bun thing. Largely bread with a few currants thrown in. They like
things like that

--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor)
nofr@sbhevre.pbzchyvax.pb.hx

CWatters · Aug 16, 2003

I heard a news report that...

a) it may have been triggered by a single power line failing.
b) The cost in NY alone was estimated at $150M or more.

If true then it would seem the system is very vunerable to deliberate
attack. It wouldn't be possible to protect all the miles of overhead power
lines but you would think that they would have installed systems to prevent
the effects of a single point failure/attack spreading to the whole network.

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun · Aug 16, 2003

In article <6447bcd3.0308160952.7df8a52c@posting.google.com>,
blackm00@cam.org mentioned...

testing_h@yahoo.com (Andre) wrote in message news:<2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com>...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

I've seen no mention of flares this time, and I'm not sure
that explanation would apply.

It wasn't solar flares it was the Perseid Meteor shower! (Don'tcha
just know that some kook will come out of the woodwork with that
explanation.) Hellfire rained down on the earth, and took out the
power grid! Yeah, right.

Back in 1989, we did have a six or seven hour blackout here
in Quebec, in February or March. Hydro Quebec did claim afterwards
it was due to solar flares.

But, what we have here is massive generators up in Northern Quebec,
away from civilization, and long high voltage lines to get it to
where it can be used. The same problem came into play in 1998,
when there was The Big Ice Storm, and power line pylons along
some of that long route just crumbled under the collected ice.

Yeah, people don't realize how much those steel pylons have to hold
up, with just the wires. Each cable is about 1.4" or 36 mm in
diameter, and weighs several pounds per foot (you figure it out in
metric). The span is something like 800 feet (244 M) and there are
sometimes three cables each side, six altogether. So figure 4800 feet
of cable at 4 pounds a foot, that's something like 19 thousand pounds
of cable between pylons, or close to 5 tons. That's like a full size
luxury car per pylon. Not to mention all the wind loads and like you
said, water and ice. Fortunately when it gets cold they can melt some
of the ice by keeping the current high, thus keeping the wires warm.

But this latest blackout, you have multiple generators and
most relatively close to where they are used. I'm not sure
there would be any place to induce solar flares. And since
there are multiple generators, there is more redundancy, so
while one generator might be knocked out, the others shouldn't
be.

Well, that's part of the problem. There are dependencies among the
sources and loads. And when things go awry, then there is hell to
pay. There wouldn't be so much of a problem if the sources and loads
were localized, but the problem is that some or many of the sources
can't handle the loads by themselves so they have to import power to
run. The only way to get the some or most of the loads up and running
with local sources is to shed some of the loads.

Whatever caused the initial problem, the massive blackout comes
because of all those generators and separate systems connected
into a grid. There does not seem to have been sufficient protection
to isolate sections in the event of such a problem, or maybe it's
an issue of not rapid enough reaction to the problem to isolate each
section.

Yeah, they said that in the blackout of '65, the steam gens that were
"spinning reserve" online couldn't respond rapidly enough to handle
the imbalances. It takes some minutes to build up a head of steam to
get the gen to put out max.

So other generators tumbled offline as a result of
the initial problem, knocking out a far greater area than the initial
problem covered.

"Mutual aid" turned into "mutual dominoes".

One thing that is clear. Quebec isn't part of that grid, somehow
isolating itself so it didn't go down, despite the fact that we
do supply quite a bit of power to other areas. If we'd been knocked
out, and not other areas, locally we'd be without power, but other
areas might suffer from a lack of power, forcing air conditioners
to be turned off.

In the blackout of '65, they mentioned that the hydroelectric
generators were trying so hard to adjust the water flow to the load
that the gates ran low on hydraulic fluid, and couldn't respond.
Weird!

With this blackout on Thursday, it's nut just a matter of not
enough power, though that might be a secondary issue. It's that
they all got knocked offline at the same time.

"Stuff happens." They were talking on the news that Gen Motors in
Mich was one of the first to go offline. Holy Toledo! Then Ohio got
it.

Hey, on MSNBC they have pics of a bunch of people lining up in front
of a hardware store begging to buy some flashlights and batteries.
Maybe it was a good idea that I bought that "Forever Flashlight". I
can shake it and get a whole minute of not very bright LED light out
of it. Looks pretty silly tho, all that shaking. I think I'll make
sure all my Ni-MH reghargable cells are charges and ready to go, just
in case. I'm also glad that I have a AA charger that runs off the cig
lighter in the car. If power fails, that's about the only place that
will let me charge the batts.

Michael

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Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
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Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun · Aug 16, 2003

In article <7Cw%a.70594$F92.7824@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
colin.watters@pandora.be mentioned...

I heard a news report that...

a) it may have been triggered by a single power line failing.
b) The cost in NY alone was estimated at $150M or more.

If true then it would seem the system is very vunerable to deliberate
attack. It wouldn't be possible to protect all the miles of overhead power
lines but you would think that they would have installed systems to prevent
the effects of a single point failure/attack spreading to the whole network.

Well, they did. Or at least they say they did. Apparently it's
easier said than done.

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Jim Thompson · Aug 17, 2003

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:38:46 -0700, Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'
<alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

What'd they do? Use more tape? :-/

480)460-2350 | |
| Jim-T@analog_innovations.com Fax

Blake · Aug 17, 2003

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' wrote:

Well, you didn't finish the story. But then you may not have been
close enough to see if the so-called engineer was embarrassed or
whatever. I guess at that point the actions of the people involved
would take a back seat to the excitement caused by the light show.

What'd they do? Use more tape? :-/

They put in a junction box made of sticks. Much better than the first one
made of straw.

Blake
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Gene Nygaard · Aug 17, 2003

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19a85a306b31323c989bd9@news.inreach.net>...

Yeah, people don't realize how much those steel pylons have to hold
up, with just the wires. Each cable is about 1.4" or 36 mm in
diameter, and weighs several pounds per foot (you figure it out in
metric).

Gee, that's tough. How about *several* kilograms per meter?

The span is something like 800 feet (244 M) and there are
sometimes three cables each side, six altogether. So figure 4800 feet
of cable at 4 pounds a foot, that's something like 19 thousand pounds
of cable between pylons, or close to 5 tons.

5 tons? If you don't understand the Fred Flintstone units, don't use
them.

What's that "M"?

Figure 250 m span times 6 cables, each with a density of 6 kg/m, and
you have 9000 kg = 9 Mg. That's 9 metric tons; what kind of tons are
you using, when you only get five of them?

Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/t_jeff.htm
But if it be thought that, either now, or at any future time, the
citizens of the United States may be induced to undertake a thorough
reformation of their whole system of measures, weights and coins,
reducing every branch to the same decimal ratio already established
in their coins, and thus bringing the calculation of the principal
affairs of life within the arithmetic of every man who can multiply
and divide plain numbers, greater changes will be necessary.
U.S. Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson, 1790

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun · Aug 17, 2003

In article <8fO%a.135$Fg7.153@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>,
mjolinor@hotmail.com mentioned...

I think that safety in the US is also not good and as one example of
lots
that I have seen, again in Kansas I asked some LV engineers to install a
piece of equipment serially in the power supply to a single house while
we
went for lunch. When we came back they had screwed another box to teh
aluminum (aluminium) siding on the house, installed the equipment and
used
terminal blocks to connect the wires. They had then just wrapped
insulating
tape round the brass block to "keep it safe". I commented on the
unsuitability of this method and the engineer got hold of the wire and
shook
it saying it's as safe as houses' at which point the connector caught
the
aluminium of the house, cut throught the tape burnt a large hole in the
house and loads of sparks, didn't see much after that as I was about 50
yards away doing a sub 3 minute mile.

Well, you didn't finish the story. But then you may not have been
close enough to see if the so-called engineer was embarrassed or
whatever. I guess at that point the actions of the people involved
would take a back seat to the excitement caused by the light show.

What'd they do? Use more tape? :-/

Well actually they didnt do anything except leave it alone. The owner of the
house was seriously miffed as the siding on the house had just been replaced
and now had black marks ranging from really small to about 1/4 inch holes
over an area about 15 feet long from ground to roof. I suppose they will
have had to replace it but for my part I just carried on and took the
measurements then went on to the next house.

On the same job at the other end of the network we were working in the
primary sub station. In the UK (and most places) when working in a primary
sub papers are needed outlining start / stop times what is being done, who
is in charge, who is on site etc. and these are filed so that if anything
goes wrong checks can easily be made, head counts can be done and blame can
be attached. I was sitting quietly between 2 rows of 66kV autoreclosers with
a spectrum analyser on my own and suddenly the autoreclosers started
tripping. They make a hell of a bang and I nearly soiled my trousers. I was
sure I hadn't touched anything and had visions of Kansas city going dark.
Some guys I had never seen came running in and started sorting things and it
turned out that there was another team working on another branch of the same
network and neither team knew about the other one.

Sounds like SBC Pac Bell. Some days two of their techs show up to fix
two different problems. Seems like they could dispatch a single
person to take of both problems.

I think I'm glad I work with datacom and telecom, not electric power.
Lot safer, tho on occasion I've been bit.

I think that with hindsight we should have realised it was one of those days
and gone back to the hotel but no. Between the sub and the house, we were
using two cars, one of the cars was parked on the left hand side of the road
with a cherry picker, pulled from behind the cherry picker onto the highway
and a police car came howling over the hill and broadsisded it putting it
(or what was left of it) in a ditch.

Amazing that someone didn't get hurt.

We gave up then and went drinking beer and eating some really good steaks in
the middle of Kansas City.

Just one particular story but as I say I have done things like this all over
America and the general safety, robustness, reliability and design of the
networks sucks.

The guy from the Nat'l Electric Reliability Commission (?) was on TV
this morning, and he said that the companies have been reluctant to
spend money on transmission facilities because they're a poor
investment, etc. He wants congress to make a law to allow his
organization to oversee the power industry like the SEC oversees the
stock exchanges.

They were saying that it all started in Cleveland. Which brings to
mind the old saying, "Will the last person leaving Cleveland please
turn the lights out." I know a guy who lives there, and I'll have to
email him and kid him about causing the blackout. ;-)

--
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###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
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Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Andre · Aug 18, 2003

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19a85ad873d8684989bdb@news.inreach.net>...

In article <7Cw%a.70594$F92.7824@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
colin.watters@pandora.be mentioned...
I heard a news report that...

a) it may have been triggered by a single power line failing.
b) The cost in NY alone was estimated at $150M or more.

If true then it would seem the system is very vunerable to deliberate
attack. It wouldn't be possible to protect all the miles of overhead power
lines but you would think that they would have installed systems to prevent
the effects of a single point failure/attack spreading to the whole network.

Well, they did. Or at least they say they did. Apparently it's
easier said than done.

"There were fluctuations hours before the failure" . Sounds like a
positive feedback effect caused the problem .

e.g. so many control systems trying to compensate for the original
glitch, due to the sheer size of the grid it began oscillating at a
low frequency which built up and finally caused a system failure .

Recall Tahoma Narrows bridge . Wind was just at the wrong speed to
induce resonance .

Perhaps a seismic event caused it ? Something caused a slow build-up
(perhaps current was being drawn in the right pattern + some other
event) causing the above scenario a couple of hours later .

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

--
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###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
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Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
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Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
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@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun · Aug 20, 2003

In article <2c2cf14c.0308181051.6e73f36c@posting.google.com>,
testing_h@yahoo.com mentioned...

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19a85ad873d8684989bdb@news.inreach.net>...
In article <7Cw%a.70594$F92.7824@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
colin.watters@pandora.be mentioned...
I heard a news report that...

a) it may have been triggered by a single power line failing.
b) The cost in NY alone was estimated at $150M or more.

If true then it would seem the system is very vunerable to deliberate
attack. It wouldn't be possible to protect all the miles of overhead power
lines but you would think that they would have installed systems to prevent
the effects of a single point failure/attack spreading to the whole network.

Well, they did. Or at least they say they did. Apparently it's
easier said than done.

"There were fluctuations hours before the failure" . Sounds like a
positive feedback effect caused the problem .

e.g. so many control systems trying to compensate for the original
glitch, due to the sheer size of the grid it began oscillating at a
low frequency which built up and finally caused a system failure .

Recall Tahoma Narrows bridge . Wind was just at the wrong speed to
induce resonance .

Tahoma? Or Tacoma? Either way, it was called Galloping Gertie. That
was a resonance that could have been found with a model and a wind
tunnel. I don't know if it would be possible to build a model of the
octopus they called the northeastern power grid.

Perhaps a seismic event caused it ? Something caused a slow build-up
(perhaps current was being drawn in the right pattern + some other
event) causing the above scenario a couple of hours later .

Unforeseen circumstances, to put it in laymen's terms.

"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0308141313.429f3bb9@posting.google.com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

Any idea what happened ? Could be solar flares ...

-A

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Ian Stirling · Aug 22, 2003

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:

In article <7Cw%a.70594$F92.7824@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>,
colin.watters@pandora.be mentioned...
I heard a news report that...

a) it may have been triggered by a single power line failing.
b) The cost in NY alone was estimated at $150M or more.

If true then it would seem the system is very vunerable to deliberate
attack. It wouldn't be possible to protect all the miles of overhead power
lines but you would think that they would have installed systems to prevent
the effects of a single point failure/attack spreading to the whole network.

Well, they did. Or at least they say they did. Apparently it's
easier said than done.

Attacks are going to be hard.
I suspect that it would take lots less than $500K to get detailled maps
of power transmission lines.
Proper recon, 10 people drive up to 10 seperate sites, and let
off an RPGs into a large transformer at the same time.

Large transformers are not available at radio shack.

--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"Don't count the humans out until the last one is dead and you have
hacked its body to bits and eaten it" -- John Ringo.

Massive power failures hit United States and Canada

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