Making a hole in a flat panel display (literally)

[Zak]

Frank Bemelman wrote:

It would be nice to have a screen with a small hole and
a pinhole camera behind it. For videophones. With the
off-axis camera's the only reasonable compromise one can
make is to act like Ben Turpin.

Wouldn't a tiny camera be an easier solution? 15 euros list gets you a
pretty small one these days, and I'm sure it can be made a lot smaller
than that. http://www.sweex.com/product.asp?pid=276

For the original poster: I'd think about using a mirror at a 45 degree
angle where you wanted your display, and the display mounted to the
side. You will see one side of the rod in the mirror though...


Thomas

 

[DIAMOND Mark R.]

To all those who took my question seriously, many thanks for the serious
answers. For the more humorous ones ... I enjoyed those to. The suggestion
about a watch was definitely worth looking at and I'll follow it up. To what
extent the actual compartments within the watch display will match what I
want, I don't know. They might be pixel sized, or actually shaped like
hands.

I had not realised that the liquid is a continuous film as seems to be
implied by comments of it leaking out. I presumed that it was effectively in
multiple pixel sized compartments.

Thanks again.

--
Mark R. Diamond


"DIAMOND Mark R." <dot@dot.dot> wrote in message
news:buguco$o1j$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...

I posted this initially to one of the other newsgroups, and someone kindly
suggested that this was probably a better forum...

This will sound very strange, I know, but I need to be able to display
images in a situation where the display surrounds a tube about 8mm in
diameter. Constructions with back-projection and so forth are probably
possible, but I wondered about using a flat panel display. Unfortunately,
I
don't know enough about the construction of flat panel displays to answer
my
own question which is ...

Can one bore a hole (laser cutter, diamond drill or anything else) through
a
flat panel display and still have the intact part of the display working
....
or will the hole destroy the electrical connections to other parts of the
screen?

Cheers,
--
Mark R. Diamond

 

[DaveC]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:03:12 -0800, DIAMOND Mark R. wrote
(in article <bujfuh$k9b$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au&gt:

To all those who took my question seriously, many thanks for the serious
answers.

But you still haven't told us the application. Is it really that secret?
--
DaveC
me@privacy.net
This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group

 

[Andre]

"DIAMOND Mark R." <dot@dot.dot> wrote in message news:<bujfuh$k9b$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>...

To all those who took my question seriously, many thanks for the serious
answers. For the more humorous ones ... I enjoyed those to. The suggestion
about a watch was definitely worth looking at and I'll follow it up. To what
extent the actual compartments within the watch display will match what I
want, I don't know. They might be pixel sized, or actually shaped like
hands.

Thia might just work if you used an LED display ; there are areas on
these which have no wires so you could probably drill a hole through
it if you were careful.

-A

I had not realised that the liquid is a continuous film as seems to be
implied by comments of it leaking out. I presumed that it was effectively in
multiple pixel sized compartments.

Thanks again.

--
Mark R. Diamond


"DIAMOND Mark R." <dot@dot.dot> wrote in message
news:buguco$o1j$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
I posted this initially to one of the other newsgroups, and someone kindly
suggested that this was probably a better forum...

This will sound very strange, I know, but I need to be able to display
images in a situation where the display surrounds a tube about 8mm in
diameter. Constructions with back-projection and so forth are probably
possible, but I wondered about using a flat panel display. Unfortunately,
I
don't know enough about the construction of flat panel displays to answer
my
own question which is ...

Can one bore a hole (laser cutter, diamond drill or anything else) through
a
flat panel display and still have the intact part of the display working
...
or will the hole destroy the electrical connections to other parts of the
screen?

Cheers,
--
Mark R. Diamond

 

[YD]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:11:39 GMT, Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

DIAMOND Mark R. wrote:


Can one bore a hole (laser cutter, diamond drill or anything else) through a
flat panel display and still have the intact part of the display working ...
or will the hole destroy the electrical connections to other parts of the
screen?


This was a totally UNBELIEVABLE question until I saw the dot.au-LOL.

I found it pretty reasonable even if a bit naive. Care to tell the
world what was so unbelievable? Or were you just setting yourself up
to walk all over a beginner for kicks? Inquiring minds want to know.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.

 

[Quack]

Out of curiousity, why do you want a rod sticking out of the display???
That's the part I can't figure out...

probably to mount a camera, like this;
http://hehe.org.free.fr/mirror/

interesting for video conferencing to have the camera 'in' the screen
so you can make eye-contact.

8mm sounds about a CCD chip..

Alex.

 

[DIAMOND Mark R.]

No ... it's not a secret. ... studies on insect vision. Question is how to
construct a display of an experimental stimulus (artificial flower is a good
analogy, even if the stimulus is nothing like a flower) that also provides a
honey bee with a sugar reward. That is the reason for wanting to have a
display surrounding a tube. Typically, a feeder tube comes through a
stimulus pattern drawn on paper, but having a dynamic display, rather than
paper, would be much more useful.

The person who commented on those funny joke flowers which squirt
unsuspecting people in the face was not that far off the mark!

--
Mark R. Diamond

 

[DIAMOND Mark R.]

I also didn't think it was naive. But then it might be naive not to think
so. I guessed that all pixels immediately below and to the right of the
"hole" would stop working, but I wasn't sure of just how the internal
circuitry is organized. The part that never occurred to me was that the
liquid of the LCD is continuous across all pixels and would leak. I still
actually don't see how the liquid can be a continuous layer AND allow
independent driving of the pixels.

--
Mark R. Diamond


"YD" <yd.techHAT@techie.com> wrote in message
news:28ar00d52n41n7h8ftn2mco6h04emsk82r@4ax.com...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:11:39 GMT, Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com
wrote:



DIAMOND Mark R. wrote:


Can one bore a hole (laser cutter, diamond drill or anything else)
through a
flat panel display and still have the intact part of the display
working ...
or will the hole destroy the electrical connections to other parts of
the
screen?


This was a totally UNBELIEVABLE question until I saw the dot.au-LOL.

I found it pretty reasonable even if a bit naive. Care to tell the
world what was so unbelievable? Or were you just setting yourself up
to walk all over a beginner for kicks? Inquiring minds want to know.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that DIAMOND Mark R. <dot@dot.dot>
wrote (in <bum451$jeh$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au&gt about 'Making a hole in a flat
panel display (literally)', on Wed, 21 Jan 2004:

I still
actually don't see how the liquid can be a continuous layer AND allow
independent driving of the pixels.

The liquid is an insulator and the electrodes are pixel-sized. Only the
bit of liquid between the pixel electrodes responds to that pixel's
voltage.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[Ben Bradley]

Crossposting to the groups:
sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.misc,
"DIAMOND Mark R." <dot@dot.dot> wrote:

No ... it's not a secret. ... studies on insect vision. Question is how to
construct a display of an experimental stimulus (artificial flower is a good
analogy, even if the stimulus is nothing like a flower) that also provides a
honey bee with a sugar reward. That is the reason for wanting to have a
display surrounding a tube. Typically, a feeder tube comes through a
stimulus pattern drawn on paper, but having a dynamic display, rather than
paper, would be much more useful.

Could this 'sugar reward' be a liquid? I would think you could have
a thin straw from the edge to the center of the display.
Another concern is what the insect is really responding to. I read
many years ago of such an experiment of insects being able to reliably
discriminate between two very close shades. It was later discovered
that the two shades were made/printed with different processes, and
had very different reflectivities in the infrared band, which was what
the insects were actually responding to.

The person who commented on those funny joke flowers which squirt
unsuspecting people in the face was not that far off the mark!

Those poor, unsuspecting insects...
-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

 

[Ian Stirling]

In sci.electronics.design DIAMOND Mark R. <dot@dot.dot> wrote:

No ... it's not a secret. ... studies on insect vision. Question is how to
construct a display of an experimental stimulus (artificial flower is a good
analogy, even if the stimulus is nothing like a flower) that also provides a
honey bee with a sugar reward. That is the reason for wanting to have a
display surrounding a tube. Typically, a feeder tube comes through a
stimulus pattern drawn on paper, but having a dynamic display, rather than
paper, would be much more useful.

I have real doubts as to how an insect will percieve a colour display.
Anyway, the vastly simpler way to do this is to use a thin tube (clear
tubes are available with diameters of well under a millimeter) going
across the display, and a tube at right angles poking out.

 

[Mark Fergerson]

Ian Stirling wrote:

In sci.electronics.design DIAMOND Mark R. <dot@dot.dot> wrote:

No ... it's not a secret. ... studies on insect vision. Question is how to
construct a display of an experimental stimulus (artificial flower is a good
analogy, even if the stimulus is nothing like a flower) that also provides a
honey bee with a sugar reward. That is the reason for wanting to have a
display surrounding a tube. Typically, a feeder tube comes through a
stimulus pattern drawn on paper, but having a dynamic display, rather than
paper, would be much more useful.


I have real doubts as to how an insect will percieve a colour display.

Yup, color vision for bees extends into what we call
"invisible" UV; they look for UV-reflective patterns on
flowers that your average LCD isn't designed to replicate.
Or is the OP planning to use the LCD as a selective shutter
with a UV source behind it? I don't think the glass they're
made of will transmit enough to be worthwhile, nor will dark
pixels block enough to make the right patterns even if the
glass transmits UV. Besides, what about aliasing/moire
patterning due to the mismatch of the rectangular-array LCD
image and the hexagonal-array eyes of bees?

Anyway, the vastly simpler way to do this is to use a thin tube (clear
tubes are available with diameters of well under a millimeter) going
across the display, and a tube at right angles poking out.

Sounds good to me, if the LCD is UV-capable.

Mark L. Fergerson

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Ian Stirling
<root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote (in <WryPb.26458$qx2.2990115@stones.force
9.net&gt about 'Making a hole in a flat panel display (the reason!!!!!)',
on Wed, 21 Jan 2004:

I have real doubts as to how an insect will percieve a colour display.

Bees have excellent colour vision, extending into the UV, and can detect
polarization, to which we are quite insensitive.

Consequently, their resistor colour code includes two extra colours that
we can't see. They need them, because they count in twelves, of course.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[Mjolinor]

Consequently, their resistor colour code includes two extra colours that
we can't see. They need them, because they count in twelves, of course.

Shouldn't that be "they count in Bs" , that would be base 11 not 12

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:59:40 -0500, Ben Bradley wrote:

Crossposting to the groups:
sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.misc,
"DIAMOND Mark R." <dot@dot.dot> wrote:

No ... it's not a secret. ... studies on insect vision. Question is how to
construct a display of an experimental stimulus (artificial flower is a good
analogy, even if the stimulus is nothing like a flower) that also provides a
honey bee with a sugar reward. That is the reason for wanting to have a
display surrounding a tube. Typically, a feeder tube comes through a
stimulus pattern drawn on paper, but having a dynamic display, rather than
paper, would be much more useful.

Could this 'sugar reward' be a liquid? I would think you could have
a thin straw from the edge to the center of the display.
Another concern is what the insect is really responding to. I read
many years ago of such an experiment of insects being able to reliably
discriminate between two very close shades. It was later discovered
that the two shades were made/printed with different processes, and
had very different reflectivities in the infrared band, which was what
the insects were actually responding to.

Reminds me of my daughter's second grade science fair project. As everyone

knows, hummingbird feeders are red and are filled with red sugar water
because hummingbirds are attracted to red - wrong! She set up an experiment
with identical feeders colored red, blue, yellow and green and logged the
levels over a period of three weeks or so. The rate of consumption was
virtually identical for all colors, in fact, the red was slightly less
popular than the other three. Not bad for a seven year old.

Bob

 

[Roger Hamlett]

"Ben Bradley" <ben_nospam_bradley@mindspring.example.com> wrote in message
news:nibt0096cfmhp3k7bokjelq9gdckmb1ne0@4ax.com...

Crossposting to the groups:

sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,sci.ele

ctronics.misc,

"DIAMOND Mark R." <dot@dot.dot> wrote:

No ... it's not a secret. ... studies on insect vision. Question is how
to
construct a display of an experimental stimulus (artificial flower is a
good
analogy, even if the stimulus is nothing like a flower) that also
provides a
honey bee with a sugar reward. That is the reason for wanting to have a
display surrounding a tube. Typically, a feeder tube comes through a
stimulus pattern drawn on paper, but having a dynamic display, rather
than
paper, would be much more useful.
Consider projection.

You can get LCD screens designed to be used on overhead projectors, and a
similar projection system could be used to project the image of a screen
onto a normal sheet of frosted plastic. Also has the advantage of keeping
the electronics away from the insects.

Could this 'sugar reward' be a liquid? I would think you could have
a thin straw from the edge to the center of the display.
Another concern is what the insect is really responding to. I read
many years ago of such an experiment of insects being able to reliably
discriminate between two very close shades. It was later discovered
that the two shades were made/printed with different processes, and
had very different reflectivities in the infrared band, which was what
the insects were actually responding to.

The person who commented on those funny joke flowers which squirt
unsuspecting people in the face was not that far off the mark!

Those poor, unsuspecting insects...

Best Wishes

 

[Zak]

Ian Stirling wrote:

Anyway, the vastly simpler way to do this is to use a thin tube (clear
tubes are available with diameters of well under a millimeter) going
across the display, and a tube at right angles poking out.

Or a sheet bonded to the display with a very narrow groove in it. If the
index of refraction of the sugar solution and the sheet are identical it
will be totally invisible...

But indeed be aware of the 'designed for human eyes' aspect of the displays.


Thomas

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Hamlett <rogerspamignored@tt
elmah.demon.co.uk> wrote (in <a6CPb.8494$YV1.4799@newsfep4-winn.server.n
tli.net&gt about 'Making a hole in a flat panel display (the
reason!!!!!)', on Wed, 21 Jan 2004:

Also has the advantage of keeping
the electronics away from the insects.

The trouble usually arises from the converse effect.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Mjolinor <mjolinor@hotmail.com>
wrote (in <M8BPb.259$fA1.507440@newsfep2-gui.server.ntli.net&gt about
'Making a hole in a flat panel display (the reason!!!!!)', on Wed, 21
Jan 2004:

Consequently, their resistor colour code includes two extra colours that
we can't see. They need them, because they count in twelves, of course.

Shouldn't that be "they count in Bs" , that would be base 11 not 12

Only the very old ones have 5 and a half legs.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Don Bruder]

In article <Ev7kNFG1jsDAFwB$@jmwa.demon.co.uk>,
John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Ian Stirling
root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote (in <WryPb.26458$qx2.2990115@stones.force
9.net&gt about 'Making a hole in a flat panel display (the reason!!!!!)',
on Wed, 21 Jan 2004:

I have real doubts as to how an insect will percieve a colour display.

Bees have excellent colour vision, extending into the UV, and can detect
polarization, to which we are quite insensitive.

That's another consideration: LCD displays of ANY type are strongly
polarized - Unless I've completely misunderstood everythign I've ever
learned about them, it's the basic principle of how they work, in fact.
When not energized, the "crystal"'s polarization is "twisted" 90 degrees
to the light source's polarization, blocking transmission. When
energized, it's "untwisted" to match the polarization of the light
source, allowing the light to pass through. This is hinted at in the
name of the old "Supertwist" displays, which used a liquid crystal
compound that, if memory serves correctly, had a *MUCH* wider range of
"twist" available - Something like triple the "range" of normal LCD
material.

I'd say chances are *VERY* high that a bee would see an LCD display much
like we see a piece of flat black paper: A monochromatic, practically
featureless surface.

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net <--- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See <http://www.spamassassin.org> for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
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