Major Wind Turbine Industry Catastrophe...

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 05:16:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 2:07:16?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11?AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.
The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

It\'s the passivation process that makes them durable. Apparently it\'s a bit of an art form with different formulations and processes used depending on environment. Then there seems to be a lot of powdered paint coating too.



--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

I used to design SCADA systems for oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. The
practice was to use 316 stainless steel if you expected anything to
last. Milder steel would just rust and bubble up any paint.

I designed a battery charger control too. The generator ran from raw
natural gas right from the well. It wasn\'t burned, the pressure just
spun the generator. The exhaust gas was vented underwater where
presumably it dissolved and things ate it.

I guess they use solar cells for charging backup batteries now.

That big famous blowout a few years back wasn\'t so bad. In the gulf,
anything organic gets eaten soon, usually before it makes the surface.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.
A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the breaking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

Helical spring clutches work amazingly well.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3797618

Probably not using anything like this, but they get the same effect, a very powerful braking action with a well-defined counter torque so as not to damage anything.

The problem with wind storms is turbulence. Just feathering the vanes isn\'t enough, they have to be built strong enough to take the forces.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 11:20:18 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 05:16:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 2:07:16?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11?AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.
The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

It\'s the passivation process that makes them durable. Apparently it\'s a bit of an art form with different formulations and processes used depending on environment. Then there seems to be a lot of powdered paint coating too..



--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
I used to design SCADA systems for oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. The
practice was to use 316 stainless steel if you expected anything to
last. Milder steel would just rust and bubble up any paint.

Those wave height probes are stainless steel and they seem to last forever being mostly submerged.

I designed a battery charger control too. The generator ran from raw
natural gas right from the well. It wasn\'t burned, the pressure just
spun the generator. The exhaust gas was vented underwater where
presumably it dissolved and things ate it.

I guess they use solar cells for charging backup batteries now.

They\'ve really come a long way with waste heat recovery. I doubt they\'re still using gas pressure to drive a turbine.

https://www.alfalaval.com/products/heat-transfer/power-generator/e-powerpack/

That big famous blowout a few years back wasn\'t so bad. In the gulf,
anything organic gets eaten soon, usually before it makes the surface.

Gulf is full of oil bubbling up naturally from the sea floor.

 

[John Walliker]

On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 16:20:18 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 05:16:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 2:07:16?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11?AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.
The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

It\'s the passivation process that makes them durable. Apparently it\'s a bit of an art form with different formulations and processes used depending on environment. Then there seems to be a lot of powdered paint coating too..



--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
I used to design SCADA systems for oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. The
practice was to use 316 stainless steel if you expected anything to
last. Milder steel would just rust and bubble up any paint.

A lot of medical implants are made from 316L stainless steel. This is the
low-carbon version.
(I once went to a steel wholesaler to buy some. I wanted \"medical grade\"
but discovered that such a thing doesn\'t really exist. They gave me a pile of
batch assays and let me choose the one with the lowest levels
of nasty contaminants!)

John

I designed a battery charger control too. The generator ran from raw
natural gas right from the well. It wasn\'t burned, the pressure just
spun the generator. The exhaust gas was vented underwater where
presumably it dissolved and things ate it.

I guess they use solar cells for charging backup batteries now.

That big famous blowout a few years back wasn\'t so bad. In the gulf,
anything organic gets eaten soon, usually before it makes the surface.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:20:18 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 05:16:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 2:07:16?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11?AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.
The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

<snip>

> I used to design SCADA systems for oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. The practice was to use 316 stainless steel if you expected anything to last. Milder steel would just rust and bubble up any paint.

<snip>

John Larkin may know a stainless steel that works - 316 is the second most common stainless steel sold, and it incorporates 3% molybdenum for resistance to sea-water and other chloride-containig solutions. There are more exotic stainless steels with even better resistance if you need them and a can afford them.

Nobody sane is going to ask his advice on the subject - or mine either. There are specialists for that,

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs..fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque.. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

<snip>

> Probably not using anything like this.

So why bother posting it?

> The problem with wind storms is turbulence. Just feathering the vanes isn\'t enough, they have to be built strong enough to take the forces.

Obviously. But heat generation in the bearing isn\'t one of the problems that has to be dealt with

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post..

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

And you think that windstorm, many of which blow up in a matter of seconds, is going to wait for wholly inadequate idea to work???

snip

Probably not using anything like this.

So why bother posting it?

I would like to see what they do use...

The problem with wind storms is turbulence. Just feathering the vanes isn\'t enough, they have to be built strong enough to take the forces.
Obviously. But heat generation in the bearing isn\'t one of the problems that has to be dealt with

You can ruin the bearing, I\'m sure it\'s not easy to replace.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49?PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13?AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01?PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40?AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11?PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

And you think that windstorm, many of which blow up in a matter of seconds, is going to wait for wholly inadequate idea to work???


snip

Probably not using anything like this.

So why bother posting it?

I would like to see what they do use...

The problem with wind storms is turbulence. Just feathering the vanes isn\'t enough, they have to be built strong enough to take the forces.
Obviously. But heat generation in the bearing isn\'t one of the problems that has to be dealt with

You can ruin the bearing, I\'m sure it\'s not easy to replace.

Yikes, not with a 100 or 200 meter diameter blade set hanging on it.
Offshore.

I\'m reading a cool book

Invention and Innovation: A Brief History of Hype and Failure by
Smil, Vaclav

about failed technologies and inventions. Airships, DDT, Freon, SSTs,
all sorts of stuff.

I wonder if wind power will be another such.

 

[whit3rd]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 9:30:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

I\'m reading a cool book

Invention and Innovation: A Brief History of Hype and Failure by
Smil, Vaclav

about failed technologies and inventions. Airships, DDT, Freon, SSTs,
all sorts of stuff.

I wonder if wind power will be another such.

Oh, it has been before. The \'dust bowl\' agricultural failures were subsequent to
a farming boom based on windmill-powered pumping of groundwater.
A lot of the wooden windmills in Holland, while picturesque and
amusing, are now obsolete... but that particular wooden-gears technology
is not \'wind power\' as a resource, only a museum quality snapshot of a previous era of wind power.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post..

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

They slow them down first via braking and then lock them. The heavy duty lock can also be used as an emergency stop in extreme circumstances. The brakes can be anything from a standard disc brake at low speed to motoring the generator to brake at high speed.

The Basics of the Wind Turbine Brake System
The turbine brake system is made to slow down and halt the movement of the wind turbine itself. It takes more than just a couple of simple brake pads to bring it to a halt.

There’s a lot of kinetic energy generated by the wind turbines, and to disperse it properly, you have to turn that kinetic energy into heat energy. Depending on the type of wind turbine, you can do this in several ways.

Low-Speed Braking
If your wind turbine runs off of lower speed mechanics, you don’t need to have the powerful brakes that high-speed turbines use. In this case, you could get away with installing a large disc brake instead.

Disc brakes are the same brakes found on many motor vehicles. We don’t tend to think of our cars as low-speed or low-power, but compared to a high-power wind turbine they don’t generate nearly as much kinetic energy.

One thing to keep in mind is that the disc brakes rely on torque to do their job, so make sure you pick the right brakes to last you a long while.

High-Speed Braking
When you have a bigger wind turbine or one that generates a lot of power, you need more than disc breaks to stop it. That’s where high-speed brakes come into play.

High-speed brakes work by engaging with the generator so they can directly affect the movement of the turbine. The ratio of the turbine’s gearboxes results in a significant reduction in output torque, something to factor into your selection.

Two of the main things you need to factor in are the diameter of the brakes and the number of teeth the brakes have on them. The higher the number these variables are, the better and faster the brakes will perform.

If you want to be on the safe side (and if your turbine allows it), you could get both brake types. Doing this ends up being cost-effective in the long run, so if you have the money to buy both now, you should do so.

https://kor-pak.com/basics-wind-turbine-brake-system/

The fires can be caused by an undersized braking system that fails to stop the rotors. Maybe not all rotors can be feathered, or there was a failure in feathering control.

snip

Probably not using anything like this.

So why bother posting it?
The problem with wind storms is turbulence. Just feathering the vanes isn\'t enough, they have to be built strong enough to take the forces.
Obviously. But heat generation in the bearing isn\'t one of the problems that has to be dealt with

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:17:46 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

And you think that windstorm, many of which blow up in a matter of seconds, is going to wait for wholly inadequate idea to work???

The only thing that is inadequate about the idea is your capacity to grasp it. Wind storm\'s don\'t blow up in seconds. That involves accelerating a considerable mass of air. A tornado or a sea spout may arrive rapidly, but they can be seen coming. and they come with the kind of weather which would have the wind turbine blades feathered and locked down long before the tornado/sea-spout arrived.

snip

Probably not using anything like this.

So why bother posting it?

I would like to see what they do use...

But picking out a randon example of something they might use - if they shared your somewhat bizarre point of view - isn\'t helpful.

The problem with wind storms is turbulence. Just feathering the vanes isn\'t enough, they have to be built strong enough to take the forces.

Obviously. But heat generation in the bearing isn\'t one of the problems that has to be dealt with

You can ruin the bearing, I\'m sure it\'s not easy to replace.

The bearigns are going to be designed so they don\'t get ruined often. That\'s what engineering is all about. Coping with the more energetic hurricanes that warmer sea-surface temperatures can generate may call for more over-design that the original designs envisaged, but stronger bearing or shorter blades could probably be retrofitted. They aren\'t fabricated on-site.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:30:23 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49?PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13?AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01?PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55?AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40?AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11?PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

You can ruin the bearing, I\'m sure it\'s not easy to replace.

Yikes, not with a 100 or 200 meter diameter blade set hanging on it.
Offshore.

You\'d take of the blades before you changed the bearing. Doing that ki d of work off-shore isn\'t easy, but off-shore oil platforms have been around for a while now, and therer are cranes on barges that do exactly that kind of work.

I\'m reading a cool book

Invention and Innovation: A Brief History of Hype and Failure by
Smil, Vaclav

about failed technologies and inventions. Airships, DDT, Freon, SSTs, all sorts of stuff.

None of which you seem to understand.

> I wonder if wind power will be another such.

It has been around for a while, and it\'s been through a number of technological revolutions already. It will probably get revolutionsed again.

Smil\'s book does seem to have been designed to appeal to climate change deniers.

https://www.librarything.com/work/28988532/reviews/234233570

\"The concluding chapter contains all the fireworks. Using the same sorts of calculations and reasoning as on all the other inventions, Smil goes after climate change. He shows irrefutably that Man does not possess the inventions, the history, the resources or the capital to implement the changes needed to avoid disaster. The historical pattern of carbon reduction, which continues to be an annual increase, shows no hope of plunging 30-50% in the next 15 years, any more than airliners will routinely pass the sound barrier or that batteries will store more energy that petroleum of the same mass.\"

Of course his \"irrefutable\" demonstration could be refuted by one successful experiment but climate change denial is aimed at the gullible.

One criterion for a patentable invention is that it can\'t be obvious to those \"skilled in the art\", so they aren\'t predictable.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

<snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted>

https://kor-pak.com/basics-wind-turbine-brake-system/

The fires can be caused by an undersized braking system that fails to stop the rotors. Maybe not all rotors can be feathered, or there was a failure in feathering control.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

<snip>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:10:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.
snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted

You\'re welcome to show us an example of a wind turbine without brakes.

https://kor-pak.com/basics-wind-turbine-brake-system/

The fires can be caused by an undersized braking system that fails to stop the rotors. Maybe not all rotors can be feathered, or there was a failure in feathering control.
Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

Going to be hard to fix it with it spinning the way it does.

snip

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 4:09:09 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:10:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a process that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted

You\'re welcome to show us an example of a wind turbine without brakes.

Why bother. A direct drive generation system can also be used as a motor, to apply torque to the fan blades. Who\'d bother adding an expensive and bulky braking system to do the same job? A locking system is less demanding, even if you have to wait for temporary lull in the wind to deploy it if the motor generator stops working.

<snipped the website for the manufacturer of the wind turbine equivalent of buggy whips.>

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

Going to be hard to fix it with it spinning the way it does.

There you go, imagining improbable situations as habitually do. If you have working variable pitch on two of three blades you can adjust them to cancel the torque from the third.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:16:02 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 4:09:09 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:10:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a process that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted

You\'re welcome to show us an example of a wind turbine without brakes.
Why bother. A direct drive generation system can also be used as a motor, to apply torque to the fan blades. Who\'d bother adding an expensive and bulky braking system to do the same job? A locking system is less demanding, even if you have to wait for temporary lull in the wind to deploy it if the motor generator stops working.

snipped the website for the manufacturer of the wind turbine equivalent of buggy whips.
Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

Going to be hard to fix it with it spinning the way it does.
There you go, imagining improbable situations as habitually do. If you have working variable pitch on two of three blades you can adjust them to cancel the torque from the third.

There you go again, fantasizing competence in the workings of an industry technology.

According to one company that designs and builds fire suppression systems for wind turbines, the majority of fires area started by lightning strike. They also state, because there is no regulatory requirement to report fires, an estimated 90% go unreported. They also list a number of other common causes among which braking system is listed. Overheated bearings getting red hot, disintegrating, throwing hot molten material and sparks throughout the housing are another. Wind turbine fires start quite a few brush fires on land. And they\'re impossible to put out because of the height, the local FD let them burn out and mainly contain the fire on the ground, making the turbine a total loss. The situation at sea is even more hopeless, if it catches fire, it\'s lost.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 11:13:40 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:16:02 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 4:09:09 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:10:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dissipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a process that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted

You\'re welcome to show us an example of a wind turbine without brakes..

Why bother. A direct drive generation system can also be used as a motor, to apply torque to the fan blades. Who\'d bother adding an expensive and bulky braking system to do the same job? A locking system is less demanding, even if you have to wait for temporary lull in the wind to deploy it if the motor generator stops working.

snipped the website for the manufacturer of the wind turbine equivalent of buggy whips.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered.. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

Going to be hard to fix it with it spinning the way it does.

There you go, imagining improbable situations as habitually do. If you have working variable pitch on two of three blades you can adjust them to cancel the torque from the third.

There you go again, fantasizing competence in the workings of an industry technology.

Your attitudes are catching, but I\'m not \"fantasizing competence\". I\'m just spelling out the obvious implications of stuff that is well known. You can\'t even manage that, and feel hurt when this is exposed.

> According to one company that designs and builds fire suppression systems for wind turbines, the majority of fires area started by lightning strike. They also state, because there is no regulatory requirement to report fires, an estimated 90% go unreported. They also list a number of other common causes among which braking system is listed.

Little old wind turbines which still have braking systems may well catch on fire quite frequenty. More modern system probably have different problems.

>Overheated bearings getting red hot, disintegrating, throwing hot molten material and sparks throughout the housing are another.

Which is why you feather and park the blades when the wind speed gets too high, if you can.

> Wind turbine fires start quite a few brush fires on land. And they\'re impossible to put out because of the height, the local FD let them burn out and mainly contain the fire on the ground, making the turbine a total loss. The situation at sea is even more hopeless, if it catches fire, it\'s lost.

Lightning strikes start even more brush fires on land. A nice tall wind turbine pylon does need lightning protection, but it doesn\'t always work.

People keep on building wind turbines, so it doesn\'t look as if all that many of them are lost to lightning strikes or fires before they wear out.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 10:07:06 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 11:13:40 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:16:02 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 4:09:09 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:10:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dissipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a process that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted

You\'re welcome to show us an example of a wind turbine without brakes.

Why bother. A direct drive generation system can also be used as a motor, to apply torque to the fan blades. Who\'d bother adding an expensive and bulky braking system to do the same job? A locking system is less demanding, even if you have to wait for temporary lull in the wind to deploy it if the motor generator stops working.

snipped the website for the manufacturer of the wind turbine equivalent of buggy whips.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

Going to be hard to fix it with it spinning the way it does.

There you go, imagining improbable situations as habitually do. If you have working variable pitch on two of three blades you can adjust them to cancel the torque from the third.

There you go again, fantasizing competence in the workings of an industry technology.
Your attitudes are catching, but I\'m not \"fantasizing competence\". I\'m just spelling out the obvious implications of stuff that is well known. You can\'t even manage that, and feel hurt when this is exposed.
According to one company that designs and builds fire suppression systems for wind turbines, the majority of fires area started by lightning strike. They also state, because there is no regulatory requirement to report fires, an estimated 90% go unreported. They also list a number of other common causes among which braking system is listed.
Little old wind turbines which still have braking systems may well catch on fire quite frequenty. More modern system probably have different problems.
Overheated bearings getting red hot, disintegrating, throwing hot molten material and sparks throughout the housing are another.
Which is why you feather and park the blades when the wind speed gets too high, if you can.
Wind turbine fires start quite a few brush fires on land. And they\'re impossible to put out because of the height, the local FD let them burn out and mainly contain the fire on the ground, making the turbine a total loss. The situation at sea is even more hopeless, if it catches fire, it\'s lost.
Lightning strikes start even more brush fires on land. A nice tall wind turbine pylon does need lightning protection, but it doesn\'t always work.

People keep on building wind turbines, so it doesn\'t look as if all that many of them are lost to lightning strikes or fires before they wear out.

Of course people keep building them because most of it is subsidized by government, it\'s a win-win for them.

Old article citing industry sources:

https://www.firetrace.com/fire-protection-blog/wind-turbine-fire-statistics

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 1:31:49 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 10:07:06 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 11:13:40 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:16:02 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 4:09:09 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 2:10:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 4:54:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 1:37:13 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:20:41 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dissipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a process that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

Don\'t know the exact details of the braking mechanism, but I\'m pretty sure they don\'t lock it with an abrupt solenoid actuated stop with all that inertia. They would have to brake it first, and then lock it.

You feather the blades, so they aren\'t rotating, and only then do they lock them.

snipped Fred thinking that one wind turbine brake manufacturers product is universally adopted

You\'re welcome to show us an example of a wind turbine without brakes.

Why bother. A direct drive generation system can also be used as a motor, to apply torque to the fan blades. Who\'d bother adding an expensive and bulky braking system to do the same job? A locking system is less demanding, even if you have to wait for temporary lull in the wind to deploy it if the motor generator stops working.

snipped the website for the manufacturer of the wind turbine equivalent of buggy whips.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades which can be feathered. Adjusting the blade pitch happens all the time - if one blade can\'t have its pitch adjusted it gets fixed fast.

Going to be hard to fix it with it spinning the way it does.

There you go, imagining improbable situations as habitually do. If you have working variable pitch on two of three blades you can adjust them to cancel the torque from the third.

There you go again, fantasizing competence in the workings of an industry technology.

Your attitudes are catching, but I\'m not \"fantasizing competence\". I\'m just spelling out the obvious implications of stuff that is well known. You can\'t even manage that, and feel hurt when this is exposed.

According to one company that designs and builds fire suppression systems for wind turbines, the majority of fires area started by lightning strike. They also state, because there is no regulatory requirement to report fires, an estimated 90% go unreported. They also list a number of other common causes among which braking system is listed.
Little old wind turbines which still have braking systems may well catch on fire quite frequenty. More modern system probably have different problems.

Overheated bearings getting red hot, disintegrating, throwing hot molten material and sparks throughout the housing are another.

Which is why you feather and park the blades when the wind speed gets too high, if you can.

Wind turbine fires start quite a few brush fires on land. And they\'re impossible to put out because of the height, the local FD let them burn out and mainly contain the fire on the ground, making the turbine a total loss. The situation at sea is even more hopeless, if it catches fire, it\'s lost.

Lightning strikes start even more brush fires on land. A nice tall wind turbine pylon does need lightning protection, but it doesn\'t always work.

People keep on building wind turbines, so it doesn\'t look as if all that many of them are lost to lightning strikes or fires before they wear out.

Of course people keep building them because most of it is subsidized by government, it\'s a win-win for them.

The previous Australia government stopped subsidising renewable energy sources some time ago, but the power companies kept on installing them because the electricity they produced was cheaper. The fossil carbon extraction industry is trying to drum up complaints about \"visual pollution\" to halt a planned off-shore windfarm, but don\'t seem to be having much luck

Old article citing industry sources:

https://www.firetrace.com/fire-protection-blog/wind-turbine-fire-statistics

And the argument is that modern wind turbines don\'t have that problem - or at least not often enough to signify.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Flyguy]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 8:43:53 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:04:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:00:53 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:33:37 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

\"It said the problems could affect as many as 15-30% of the 29,000 turbines it services worldwide.\"

Of course they\'re going to understate the scale of the problem after a 30% loss of stock value.
The stock market always over-reacts. Lying about the scale of the problem isn\'t worth the trouble it gets you into after its discovered that you lied,.
This is a problem, but rather less than a catastrophe. The implication is that they have shipped faulty - or potentially fallible - parts.

Presumably they can be replaced by parts that won\'t fail, which is going to be expensive and tedious and something of a financial disaster but Siemens is large and should survive. And there are other suppliers of wind turbines.

Replacing parts won\'t fix a design issue.
You may have to replace a rather bulky part, but there\'s no suggestion that the failure involved destroys the whole wind-turbine structure.

The design issues that I had to fix got fixed by replacing particular modules with a modules that I\'d re-designed to fit into the same slot as the original part, and do the same job rather better. The example that sticks in my mind wasn\'t exactly a design issue - the machine had been designed to write a spot for 200nsec. When somebody invented a more sensitive electron beam resist , we only needed to keep the beam there for 100nsec and I had to reworked the beam-steering electronics so that it could get to the next spot twice as fast. It wasn\'t difficult.

--
Bozo Bill Slowman, Sydney

Bozo is just another apologist for the problematic \"renewable\" energy industry. These are MAJOR problems that are, correctly, interpreted by the market. Bozo IS NOT an engineer, does not think like one, and certainly does not understand engineering issues. I know a tech that works on these turbines and does not have a lot of good things to say about them.