Major Wind Turbine Industry Catastrophe...

[Fred Bloggs]

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:33:37 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

\"It said the problems could affect as many as 15-30% of the 29,000 turbines it services worldwide.\"

This is a problem, but rather less than a catastrophe. The implication is that they have shipped faulty - or potentially fallible - parts.

Presumably they can be replaced by parts that won\'t fail, which is going to be expensive and tedious and something of a financial disaster but Siemens is large and should survive. And there are other suppliers of wind turbines.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:00:53 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:33:37 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
\"It said the problems could affect as many as 15-30% of the 29,000 turbines it services worldwide.\"

Of course they\'re going to understate the scale of the problem after a 30% loss of stock value.

This is a problem, but rather less than a catastrophe. The implication is that they have shipped faulty - or potentially fallible - parts.

Presumably they can be replaced by parts that won\'t fail, which is going to be expensive and tedious and something of a financial disaster but Siemens is large and should survive. And there are other suppliers of wind turbines.

Replacing parts won\'t fix a design issue.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:04:56 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:00:53 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:33:37 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

\"It said the problems could affect as many as 15-30% of the 29,000 turbines it services worldwide.\"

Of course they\'re going to understate the scale of the problem after a 30% loss of stock value.

The stock market always over-reacts. Lying about the scale of the problem isn\'t worth the trouble it gets you into after its discovered that you lied,..

This is a problem, but rather less than a catastrophe. The implication is that they have shipped faulty - or potentially fallible - parts.

Presumably they can be replaced by parts that won\'t fail, which is going to be expensive and tedious and something of a financial disaster but Siemens is large and should survive. And there are other suppliers of wind turbines.

Replacing parts won\'t fix a design issue.

You may have to replace a rather bulky part, but there\'s no suggestion that the failure involved destroys the whole wind-turbine structure.

The design issues that I had to fix got fixed by replacing particular modules with a modules that I\'d re-designed to fit into the same slot as the original part, and do the same job rather better. The example that sticks in my mind wasn\'t exactly a design issue - the machine had been designed to write a spot for 200nsec. When somebody invented a more sensitive electron beam resist , we only needed to keep the beam there for 100nsec and I had to reworked the beam-steering electronics so that it could get to the next spot twice as fast. It wasn\'t difficult.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

Huh. I wonder if anyone else noticed any of this? Maybe the designers figured this out on their own? Naaaah.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for
the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 3:12:11 AM UTC+10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

It shouldn\'t be difficult to monitor the oil level and the gear-box temperature. Remote monitoring has got a lot cheaper and easier in recent years.

At least some of them use direct drive generators, with lots of segments to generate an AC output at a lot higher frequency than the blade rotation rate and use switching circuits to convert the output to a frequency and voltage compatible with the grid being driven,

No fast spinning shafts.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 13:11:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.


Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for
the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

In a stationary or marine power plant, there is a big bearing oil
system with pumps and often a gravity tank in case the pumps fail. And
lots of monitoring with people on hand. It\'s a big deal to replace a
bearing.

The gearbox must make the shaft even shorter, even worse to manage the
forces from the blade. A big wind turbine sounds like a serious
mechanical design problem.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/

There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for
the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:37:58 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.
Huh. I wonder if anyone else noticed any of this? Maybe the designers figured this out on their own? Naaaah.

The customers were complaining about unusually high failure rate. That will do it.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:53:21 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

When the wind is high, the blades are feathered. They still experience drag, but the power generating nacelle can rotate so the axis of rotation is always pointed into the wind. They can\'t point up or down, but the ocean surface just below means that there is a lot of up-draft or down-draft component.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.

The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 2:07:16 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.
The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

It\'s changing all the time. Monopiles are going out of favor because of the environmental impact of the hammering required to install them. Most of what I\'m seeing in the news coverage is the \"jacket\" structure which requires minimal disturbance. Those are those yellow tower construct things in the images. They definitely look like metal. Paradoxically, that technology was developed for offshore oil:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/us-conditions-drive-innovation-offshore-wind-foundations

Article is U.S. but I\'ve seen them use the jacket in Europe too.

If it\'s really deep, they\'re going with the floating platforms. Between installation and equipment cost these things are probably running $40M now, but not sure about that.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 2:07:16 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 5:55:11 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 12:24:07?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Siemens is taking over the operation. Spokespeople have announced it\'s a combination of both basic design and manufacturing issues. The installed base of their turbines is ginormous, with an equally huge backlog, which may go away after this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/what-are-issues-with-siemens-gamesas-wind-turbines-2023-06-23/
There must be some unusual loadings on a wind turbine bearing, side
loads and twists and thrusts, that the usual shaft bearing, like in a
steam or gas turbine, doesn\'t see. The blades are long, air is
turbulent, and the shaft is short.

The wind comes at them in all directions, updrafts and downdrafts, that are quite forceful on those large blades. It\'s especially bad at sea. Those installations and turbines don\'t come cheap.

Salt spray is really nasty stuff. Few metals hold up for long.
The blades seem to be carbon fibre, and the supporting structure reinforced concrete. Lighthouse have been around for hundreds of year so presumably people have found which metals can survive salt spray. They aren\'t going to consult John Larkin for advice on the subject.

It\'s the passivation process that makes them durable. Apparently it\'s a bit of an art form with different formulations and processes used depending on environment. Then there seems to be a lot of powdered paint coating too.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.
Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque.

\"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:25:01 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 1:56:55 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:49:40 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 1:12:11 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-06-23 12:23, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Plus the environment is difficult. A common failure mechanism is for the gearbox to get low on oil and then catch fire.

I always heard that was the brakes seizing up. It usual occurs during high winds when they \"park\" the blades.

Big wind turbines have variable pitch blades. They don\'t park them - they feather them so that the blades don\'t generate any rotational torque. \"In some instances, although not common, the blades can even be locked down to ride out severe gusts.\"

So the braking capability is there, and if defective can cause overheating. Hard to imagine preventative maintenance on these expensive structures would allow them to run low on oil.

A brake is a device that slows rotation, and necessarily dssipates energy in the process.

A lock stops the blades from rotating at all. There\'s no heat generated so there\'s dissipation at all. A locked shaft has been intentionally and deliberately \"seized up\" by a prcoess that gets reversed when you unlock it.,

> https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-do-wind-turbines-survive-severe-storms

You should put more effort into understanding the links that you post.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney