Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:47:03 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 12/11/2022 13:39, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when
there\'s plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

That can in fact be done. And was done. And it wrecked equipment in
German factories, so they installed their own exactly 50Hz inverters.

I think the problem originated in one of the ex eastern bloc nations.

A German device couldn\'t handle a **2%** change?

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:37:24 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered

It is to me... If I am the engineer designing or installing an inverter,
I have to follow the law and regulations.

If you keep feeding the troll like that, you cretinous dumb spick, you will
get taught a few lessons! LOL

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:39:00 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered

> And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

That dumb spick STILL doesn\'t get it! I wonder whether that\'s a typical
spick thing. LOL

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:43:56 -0500, hubops@ccanoemail.com, another brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile CRETIN, blathered again:

The adjustments that are made to maintain clocks are in the
range of .05 Hz. .
John T.

So for HOW long will you still continue with this sick crap, you
troll-feeding senile shithead? Until you catch on, or until the troll is fed
up with you?

 

[Anthony Stewart]

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

 

[Anthony Stewart]

I was in emergency yesterday for a messy little rip skill saw cut using the wrong tool for hedge trimming. I had a brilliant conversation with a young lady (25) who said in the last decade people have become so angry, they just need to slow down. She was just re-tooled as a welder after being previously attacked by a very big man and now had a blood clot with DVT from that previous incident as a restaurant manager when she tried to intervene an attack someone else. She said front-line customer providers have increasing blackouts of quitting jobs from the stress.

The analogy is power distribution with more green energy sources but lack of storage or negative impedance voltage stabilizers causing instability and war in Ukraine.

We must learn to avoid confrontations and insults and learn to be more tolerant.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:19:09 -0000, Anthony Stewart <tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was in emergency yesterday for a messy little rip skill saw cut using the wrong tool for hedge trimming.

I use a reciprocating saw, this one: https://www.1stmachineryauctions.com/media/lot/Lot-23-1-16.jpg

> I had a brilliant conversation with a young lady (25) who said in the last decade people have become so angry, they just need to slow down. She was just re-tooled as a welder after being previously attacked by a very big man and now had a blood clot with DVT from that previous incident as a restaurant manager when she tried to intervene an attack someone else. She said front-line customer providers have increasing blackouts of quitting jobs from the stress.

Yeah, welding is much safer.

> The analogy is power distribution with more green energy sources but lack of storage or negative impedance voltage stabilizers causing instability and war in Ukraine.

How is that analogous?

> We must learn to avoid confrontations and insults and learn to be more tolerant.

And learn if you\'re called a fucking cunt it\'s not the end of the world.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart <tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop. Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re anything like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t
we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based.  The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability?  They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens if
the power drawn exceeds what they can provide.  If they\'re anything like
a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 19:48:27 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t
we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens if
the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re anything like
a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

I was assuming a voltage drop caused on purpose later on, not at the generator. I was originally asking about reducing peak usage problems for short periods. The electric company could drop a winding or two somewhere to lower everyone\'s voltage. So resistive loads would use less, and loads you\'re talking about would use precisely the same (as far as the generator is concerned, as it\'s output voltage and current remain the same).

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-08 01:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 16:10:13 -0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
On 07/11/2022 14:45, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.1u7t9bhtmvhs6z@ryzen.home...
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t
we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

No.

Reducing the frequency will cause mains-referenced clocks to run slow.
And that is many clocks with digital displays (which I thought until
recently used quartz crystals like a watch) and not just older clocks
with synchronous motors. Reducing the frequency too far may affect the
efficiency of transformers: I think reducing the frequency makes it more
likely that the magnetic core will saturate (though I may have got that
the wrong way round!). (*)

No, you\'re spot on. It has been discussed in this group before. In
general, 60Hz transformers can either be more efficient or smaller than
their 50Hz cousins.

Does this mean the power station generators spin faster over there?  Or
just have more coils?

They spin a bit faster in the USA, and have a little bit of less metal.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-09 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 19:48:27 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t
we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based.  The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability?  They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens if
the power drawn exceeds what they can provide.  If they\'re anything like
a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

I was assuming a voltage drop caused on purpose later on, not at the
generator.  I was originally asking about reducing peak usage problems
for short periods.  The electric company could drop a winding or two
somewhere to lower everyone\'s voltage.  So resistive loads would use
less, and loads you\'re talking about would use precisely the same (as
far as the generator is concerned, as it\'s output voltage and current
remain the same).

Hum.

Dunno.

Maybe.

But if this strategy \"works\", the current increase causes more stress on
the hardware: it heats more. Maybe destructively.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Bob F]

On 11/9/2022 11:48 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based.  The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability?  They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide.  If they\'re anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

If different generators get out of sync, everything craps out, as the
current tries to correct that. Huge currents and forces can result,
destroying equipment. Keeping the sources of power in sync is probably
one of the most important constraints of running the power networks.

\"Synchronizing a generator to the power system must be
done carefully. The speed (frequency) and voltage of the
isolated generator must be closely matched, and the rotor
angle must be close to the instantaneous power system phase
angle prior to closing the generator breaker to connect the
isolated generator to the power system. Poor synchronizing
can:
• Damage the generator and the prime mover because of
mechanical stresses caused by rapid acceleration or
deceleration, bringing the rotating masses into
synchronism (exactly matched speed and rotor angle)
with the power system.
• Damage the generator and step-up transformer
windings caused by high currents.
• Cause disturbances to the power system such as power
oscillations and voltage deviations from nominal.
• Prevent the generator from staying online and picking
up load when protective relay elements interpret the
condition as an abnormal operating condition and trip
the generator\"

https://cms-cdn.selinc.com/assets/Literature/Publications/Technical%20Papers/6459_FundamentalsAdvancements_MT_20120402_Web2.pdf?v=20191007-203006#:~:text=Poor%20synchronizing%20can%3A&text=Damage%20the%20generator%20and%20the,angle)%20with%20the%20power%20system.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:43:56 -0500, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

System frequency is maintained within very tight tolerances -
- for a variety of reasons. Large thermal generators are quite
fussy about frequency.

Big generators are synchronous generators and the question is how do
you connect a large number in parallel (in the national grid) and how
properly share the generated power between them. The power delivered
depends on the _phase_difference_ between generators i.e. a constant
phase difference.

If there would be even a small _frequency_ difference between
generators that would cause a constantly variable phase difference. If
the phase difference would grow above 90 degrees, a catastrophic
situation would occur.

Note that this method of synchronizing generators several hundred
kilometers away from each other has been used for well over a century
without any other synchronization connection, just the power grid.

Messing up with the frequency would also mess up the phase protection
systems.

 

[Peeler]

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 21:13:11 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> They spin a bit faster in the USA, and have a little bit of less metal.

YOU obviously suck troll cock faster and oftener than anyone else in these
three ngs, you dumb spick! LOL

 

[Peeler]

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 20:48:27 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> Think.

HE doesn\'t think, you dumb spick! What he can is make any dumb senile
asshole in these groups make him suck off, any time he wants to be sucked
off by one of you!

 

[Peeler]

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 21:16:03 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> Hum.

Your big spick mouth full of the Scottish wanker\'s cock again, senile sucker
of troll cock? <BG>

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

We\'re linked by DC, so no.

Wrong.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[John S]

On 11/12/2022 3:59 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:43:56 -0500, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

System frequency is maintained within very tight tolerances -
- for a variety of reasons. Large thermal generators are quite
fussy about frequency.

Big generators are synchronous generators and the question is how do
you connect a large number in parallel (in the national grid) and how
properly share the generated power between them. The power delivered
depends on the _phase_difference_ between generators i.e. a constant
phase difference.

If there would be even a small _frequency_ difference between
generators that would cause a constantly variable phase difference. If
the phase difference would grow above 90 degrees, a catastrophic
situation would occur.

Note that this method of synchronizing generators several hundred
kilometers away from each other has been used for well over a century
without any other synchronization connection, just the power grid.

Messing up with the frequency would also mess up the phase protection
systems.

Well said, downunder. As a result, there cannot be a _frequency_
difference _anywhere_ in the net. The entire net must change frequency.
--
Dogs make me happy. Humans make my head hurt.

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:22:24 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered

We\'re linked by DC, so no.

Wrong.

You two abysmally stupid assholes are linked by your stupidity! No buts
about that! LOL