magnetic field

[w2aew]

Rich,

That's not exactly true. The GFCI receptacles have a LINE input and
and LOAD output. Any receptacles connected to the LOAD output
terminals of the GFCI are also protected circuits.

 

[Keith Williams]

In article <pan.2006.02.13.17.55.11.405121@example.net>,
richgrise@example.net says...

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:38:58 -0800, canadian_woodworker wrote:

Yea, ive read that page before.

afaik, those breakers are pretty expensive. But ill check today and
possibly pick one up.

Thanks for the comments all. Nehmo - your post alluded to a method I had
considered, but im not skilled enough to know exactly what to do What
you say makes sense, but I think ill either go with a breaker, or the
method I talked abut.

Thanks all for comments.

Well, as long as I have your attention, it makes absolutely no difference
whatsoever which outlet on a main line has a GFCI - each one only protects
itself and what's plugged into it, and couldn't care less what's happening
downstream:

Not true. GFCI outlets have a gazinta and a gazouta. Anything
attached to the gazouta side is also protected by the GFCI. The
feed-through is usually rated at 20A, which is likely the same as
the branch circuit. If he can find the first outlet he can protect
the whole circuit with a $10 GFCI outlet, rather than a $25 GFCI
breaker. He won't have to go into the basement (or outside, in my
case) to reset the GFCI either.

.
. Mains Hot -------+-------------+-------------+
. Mains Neut. -----|--+----------|--+----------|--+
. | | | | | |
. ------ ------ ------
. | GFCI | | GFCI | | GFCI |
. ------ ------ ------
. P.C P.C P.C

Where "P.C" means "Protected Circuit".

What has been suggested, (sorry, don't remember by whom - jalegris?) is to
use a GFCI circuit breaker, which goes on the left:
.
. -------
. Mains Hot --| GFCI |----+-------------+-------------+
. Mains Neut.--| C.B. |----|--+----------|--+----------|--+
. ------- | | | | | |
. Ordinary Ordinary Ordinary
. Outlet Outlet Outlet

That's "on the left" in my attempt at a diagram - in real life, it goes in
the breaker panel.

It could be a GFCI in the first outlet on the circuit, as well.

Or, of course, you could upgrade your wiring - it will increase the resale
value of the house considerably!

Maybe.

--
Keith

 

In Canada, at least, it CAN make a difference depending on where you
put the GFCI outlet - it has input and output terminals. By connecting
it as the first in a chain you can protect all the other downstream
outlets. That's what the OP is trying to do. Of course, you could put
GFCI's on every outlet, but it's overkill. Or should I say underkill?

--
Joe Legris

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:38:58 -0800, canadian_woodworker wrote:


Yea, ive read that page before.

afaik, those breakers are pretty expensive. But ill check today and
possibly pick one up.

Thanks for the comments all. Nehmo - your post alluded to a method I had
considered, but im not skilled enough to know exactly what to do What
you say makes sense, but I think ill either go with a breaker, or the
method I talked abut.

Thanks all for comments.


Well, as long as I have your attention, it makes absolutely no difference
whatsoever which outlet on a main line has a GFCI - each one only protects
itself and what's plugged into it, and couldn't care less what's happening
downstream:

[view in fixed font, with wrap off]
.
. Mains Hot -------+-------------+-------------+
. Mains Neut. -----|--+----------|--+----------|--+
. | | | | | |
. ------ ------ ------
. | GFCI | | GFCI | | GFCI |
. ------ ------ ------
. P.C P.C P.C

Where "P.C" means "Protected Circuit".

What has been suggested, (sorry, don't remember by whom - jalegris?) is to
use a GFCI circuit breaker, which goes on the left:
.
. -------
. Mains Hot --| GFCI |----+-------------+-------------+
. Mains Neut.--| C.B. |----|--+----------|--+----------|--+
. ------- | | | | | |
. Ordinary Ordinary Ordinary
. Outlet Outlet Outlet

That's "on the left" in my attempt at a diagram - in real life, it goes in
the breaker panel.

Or, of course, you could upgrade your wiring - it will increase the resale
value of the house considerably!

Good Luck!
Rich

Hi Rich,

One of the 'recent' innovations is to build the GFCI circuit breaker
into the 'first' outlet in the chain. On that outlet, the two sets of
connections are isolated from each other, so that all downstream outlets
are then protected. This allows you test and reset the circuit from
inside, without having to go find the breakerbox. It has become
standard in the NEC to do it that way now.

But, the only way to really tell which outlet is first is to pull each
one out, and buzz out each side. Takes a while, but is the only sure
way to find out. Unless, of course, you took pictures of the wiring
before they put up the sheetrock!

Charlie

 

[Nehmo]

jalegris

GFCI's on every outlet, but it's overkill. Or should I say underkill?

You will note the confusion people in this newsgroup have about GFCIs.
And this confusion is not limited to those people. Experienced
electricians often don't even know what's inside of a GFCI. And
everyday-people, people who typically use receptacles, sometimes are
completely bewildered by them and how they should be used.

When ordinary Smo discovers a downstream receptacle to be dead,
sometimes that's the end of the troubleshooting. Smo simply concludes
there is something wrong with the electricity, and he or she leaves it
to somebody else to make the repair.

However, if the receptacle Smo is using has a reset button on it, Smo,
seeing the button right there, may try it, and he or she may succeed in
repairing the electric problem.

So a multiple-GFCI installation has a troubleshooting advantage. This
equates to an installation that is up and working a higher proportion
of its life. Thus, the multiple installation is superior. However, it
costs more.

In new construction, the labor cost of installing a GFCI receptacle is
equivalent to that for a regular receptacle. The cost difference in
materials isn't substantial. Consequently, new construction (on all but
the cheapest of projects) should have a GFCI at every receptacle where
GFCI protection is needed.

In retrofits, each replaced receptacle is an added cost. And in some
older houses, the old small boxes won't accommodate a GFCI. So an
inexpensive way to protect all the outlets on a circuit is to just use
the GFCI on the first outlet.
--
(||) Nehmo (||)

 

[Jasen Betts]

Well, as long as I have your attention, it makes absolutely no difference
whatsoever which outlet on a main line has a GFCI - each one only protects
itself and what's plugged into it, and couldn't care less what's happening
downstream:

you can get outlets that proviide proteted output terminamls
on the back to connect protect to other downstream standard outlets


. Mains Hot ------+ +----------+-------------+
. Mains Neut. ----|-+ | +--------|--+----------|--+
. | | | | | | | |
. ------ Ordinary Ordinary
. | GFCI | Outlet Outlet
. ------
. P.C

note: ground connection present but not shown


--

Bye.
Jasen

 

In Canada, GFCI outlets have input and output terminals so you can
protect a whole chain of downstream outlets with just one GFCI. You
could put a GFCI on every outlet, but that's overkill. Or should I say
underkill?

--
Joe Legris

 

[ehsjr]

Rich Grise wrote:

Well, as long as I have your attention, it makes absolutely no difference
whatsoever which outlet on a main line has a GFCI - each one only protects
itself and what's plugged into it, and couldn't care less what's happening
downstream:

[view in fixed font, with wrap off]
.
. Mains Hot -------+-------------+-------------+
. Mains Neut. -----|--+----------|--+----------|--+
. | | | | | |
. ------ ------ ------
. | GFCI | | GFCI | | GFCI |
. ------ ------ ------
. P.C P.C P.C

Where "P.C" means "Protected Circuit".

Right - when wired as drawn above. But GFCI receptacles
can be wired to protect downstream receptacles/wiring as
well. They are marked with a line and load side. The
wiring on the line side of the GFCI receptacle is not
protected by the GFCI. The GFCI contained receptacle,
and everything on the load side is:

--------- --------
Mains Hot -------| GFCI |------| Regular|--- etc
Mains Neut. -----| Recpt. |------| Recpt. |---
--------- --------
Line Load

What has been suggested, (sorry, don't remember by whom - jalegris?) is to
use a GFCI circuit breaker, which goes on the left:
.

Cheaper to install a GFCI receptacle in the first position
on the branch, and equally effective for ground fault
protection as a GFI circuit breaker. But you can't do
that on a multiwired branch with a shared neutral. For
such a branch circuit, you wire only to the line side,
and the GFCI receptacle feeds nothing down stream. Or
you could feed a non-shared neutral circuit downstream
through the GFCI receptacle, which implies adding
an extension to the existing multiwire.

Ed

 

[Mark Lloyd]

On 13 Feb 2006 17:15:50 -0800, jalegris@sympatico.ca wrote:

In Canada, GFCI outlets have input and output terminals so you can
protect a whole chain of downstream outlets with just one GFCI. You
could put a GFCI on every outlet, but that's overkill. Or should I say
underkill?

Is that different from the LINE and LOAD terminals?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[Ken Taylor]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:01:47 -0800, Nehmo wrote:


In retrofits, each replaced receptacle is an added cost. And in some
older houses, the old small boxes won't accommodate a GFCI. So an
inexpensive way to protect all the outlets on a circuit is to just use
the GFCI on the first outlet.


It seems I've learned something today. It sounds like you're describing
an outlet and circuit breaker in one box.

So, when any outlet on the "output side" trips it, the whole string
goes out? Does the first one still work? I.e., does it have two reset
buttons?

Thanks,
Rich

Not in any I've seen. The outlet with the protection circuit trips out,

disconnecting its own load and allt he downstream ones.

Cheers.

Ken

 

[Nehmo]

The GFCI and duplex receptacle are combined in a discrete or single
device. Inside of this device is the GFCI circuitry. The connecting
slots for a plug and the downstream (labeled "load") connectors are
_both_ downstream from the circuitry.

If the GFCI is tripped, everything goes off.

There *are* two buttons, but one is "test" and the other is "reset".
--
(||) Nehmo (||)

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:00:09 GMT, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net>
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:01:47 -0800, Nehmo wrote:

In retrofits, each replaced receptacle is an added cost. And in some
older houses, the old small boxes won't accommodate a GFCI. So an
inexpensive way to protect all the outlets on a circuit is to just use
the GFCI on the first outlet.

It seems I've learned something today. It sounds like you're describing
an outlet and circuit breaker in one box.

Not quite - it just has a GFCI trip, no overcurrent trip, so it does
not replace a normal circuit breaker.

So, when any outlet on the "output side" trips it, the whole string
goes out? Does the first one still work? I.e., does it have two reset
buttons?

The GFCI outlet, and any outlets connected to its "load" terminals,
will switch off on a fault (or test). There is a single reset button
to restore power to the GFCI outlet and any downstream outlets.

Thanks,
Rich

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:00:09 GMT, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net>
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:01:47 -0800, Nehmo wrote:

In retrofits, each replaced receptacle is an added cost. And in some
older houses, the old small boxes won't accommodate a GFCI. So an
inexpensive way to protect all the outlets on a circuit is to just use
the GFCI on the first outlet.

It seems I've learned something today. It sounds like you're describing
an outlet and circuit breaker in one box.

---
Not a circuit breaker, per se.
The GFCI will trip if there's a difference between the current into
the load and the current returning from the load, but it won't trip
if the load current (and the return current) are higher than the
circuit is rated for, since that's the job of the upstream breaker.
---

So, when any outlet on the "output side" trips it, the whole string
goes out?

---
Yes.
---

Does the first one still work?

---
Yes, but it works by switching itself (as well as all of the
downstream sockets) off of the mains.
---

I.e., does it have two reset buttons?

---
No, just one.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

 

[Thomas Veik]

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:12:51 -0500, "DaveM"
<masondg4499@comcast99.net> wrote:

I recently picked up a Microdot F231 Sweep Function Generator. It seems to
be working great, but I'm a bit paranoid about having a nice piece of
equipment without a manual. I don't need it for operation, but would like
to have it in my library in case I need it for repair.
I've looked at the usual internet manual sources, but no joy from any of
them. Hoping that someone has a manual that I could buy, borrow & copy, or
rent for a short time???? Or possibly can help me locate a copy??? I'd be
forever (well, almost forever) grateful.

Cheers!!!

Sorry, can't help your specific need but...

Speaking of manuals, I made an interesting discovery the other day. I
was looking for a manual for a piece of equipment I have. The website
of the company for the equipment no longer had the manual on their
website, but they used to have it there. I was able to find the
manual on archived copies of their website at the WayBackMachine.
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

Tom

 

[Periproct]

Speaking of manuals, I made an interesting discovery the other day. I
was looking for a manual for a piece of equipment I have. The website
of the company for the equipment no longer had the manual on their
website, but they used to have it there. I was able to find the
manual on archived copies of their website at the WayBackMachine.
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

I am extrememly grateful for this link. I've been able to recover almost all
of my brothers business web site that disappeared in 2002 when the web site
builder went missing and the URL subscriptions weren't paid. Now I have to
learn to build web sites.

 

MW oven, 1 second, HIGH

 

[Bob Myers]

<testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140555925.687331.128580@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Hi all.

OK, I am humming the "X files" theme here.

I just did an experiment involving "nuking" a defective NiMH mobile
phone pack.

What, exactly, did you do?


Bob M.

 

[Bob Myers]

<testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140563411.180459.6820@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

MW oven, 1 second, HIGH

In that case, I strongly suspect that this "nuking"
did absolutely nothing significant, and any change
you saw in the battery's behavior was
coincidental.

Bob M.

 

Bob Myers wrote:

testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140563411.180459.6820@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
MW oven, 1 second, HIGH


In that case, I strongly suspect that this "nuking"
did absolutely nothing significant, and any change
you saw in the battery's behavior was
coincidental.

Think I'll get laughed at if I walk up to the network analyzer with a
NiMH cell and say I want to measure S11?

I guess it probably would be safe to do with a cap to block the dc...

 

[dan]

What's that Lassie? You say that siliconmike fell down the old
sci.electronics.misc mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by
26 May 2005 03:13:16 -0700:

I would appreciate if anyone can advise as to how to make magnets. I
have an electronic engineering background, but have never done this
before. I want to make tiny magnets, say size of 4mm x 4mm or 6mm x
6mm, of the power of 4000 to 5000 Gauss (higher the better)..

What material should I use ?
What coating should I do on that material for corrosion protection ?
What would be the thickness of the coating ?
Should I do coating before / after magnetizing ?
What would be the coil / dc power setup ?
How do I measure the strength afterwards ?

Any advise would be great.

Thanks
Mike
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/

--

Dan