Low Tech Tips for Previous Wars

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields"

Here's an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3viiJ4g5G8&feature=related

** Interesting only cos it is a blatant PR exercise for Lockheed and
contains more pure Yankee bullshit it than I have ever seen an aviation
video before. Got enough errors and misrepresentations to choke an elephant,
far too many to list.

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate. Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

The F104 Starfighter was a similar disaster in Europe, with hundreds of
fatal losses in peace time exercises flown by German and Canadian pilots.
There were many grim jokes made about it, like calling it the "Ground Dart"
and a "Widowmaker". The Wiki on the F104 covers many of the design flaws
and problems fairly well.

That there was a massive bribery scandal surrounding Lockheed and the German
purchase of F104s is another story too.


..... Phil

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:23:19 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Fields"

Here's an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3viiJ4g5G8&feature=related


** Interesting only cos it is a blatant PR exercise for Lockheed and
contains more pure Yankee bullshit it than I have ever seen an aviation
video before. Got enough errors and misrepresentations to choke an elephant,
far too many to list.

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate. Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?

That is, isn't racing with your escort rather silly?
---

The F104 Starfighter was a similar disaster in Europe, with hundreds of
fatal losses in peace time exercises flown by German and Canadian pilots.
There were many grim jokes made about it, like calling it the "Ground Dart"
and a "Widowmaker". The Wiki on the F104 covers many of the design flaws
and problems fairly well.

---
Well, ya can't win 'em all, but they don't seem to have done badly,
overall:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lockheed_aircraft
---

That there was a massive bribery scandal surrounding Lockheed and the German
purchase of F104s is another story too.

---
"politics as usual" I suspect.
---

.... Phil
--

JF

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields is an Ass"

"Phil Allison"

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate. Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?

** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

( snip JF drivel )

The F104 Starfighter was a similar disaster in Europe, with hundreds of
fatal losses in peace time exercises flown by German and Canadian pilots.
There were many grim jokes made about it, like calling it the "Ground
Dart"
and a "Widowmaker". The Wiki on the F104 covers many of the design flaws
and problems fairly well.

That there was a massive bribery scandal surrounding Lockheed and the
German
purchase of F104s is another story too.

---
"politics as usual" I suspect.

** Corporate corruption by Lockheed resulting in over a hundred dead fighter
pilots and lost planes is one hell of a scandal.

The German public used to joke that to acquire an F104, you only needed to
buy a small patch of land and wait.

Funny guys, those Germans.

BTW:

Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.



..... Phil

 

[Fred Abse]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:24:29 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:

The higher speed Harrier jump jet must require a faster controller.

AFAIK, The Harrier's controller is between the pilot's ears. That's why
the selection process, and training are so intensive.

The Harrier design predates fly-by-wire.

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
(Richard Feynman)

 

[Ian Field]

"Fred Abse" <excretatauris@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2012.08.19.17.47.21.225708@invalid.invalid...

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:24:29 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:

The higher speed Harrier jump jet must require a faster controller.

AFAIK, The Harrier's controller is between the pilot's ears. That's why
the selection process, and training are so intensive.

The Harrier design predates fly-by-wire.

And you think in all those years of production they wouldn't have have
introduce compute equipment as it became available!

 

[Bret Cahill]

Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long range
while carrying a full bomb load  -  about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of  Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

The local navy base flies a lot of vertical take off planes. The
engine and prop rotate 90 degrees from helicopter to fixed wing mode.
It's interesting to watch them come in to land. From a distance it
looks like a fixed wing aircraft has is slowing and then finally
stopped in the sky.

The dynamics of rotating from one to the other must be an interesting
control problem, with the rotation speed restricted by the amount of
time it takes to pick up speed for the transition.

In horizontal position the larger [than conventional fixed wing] props
must have better low speed specific propulsion efficiency than any
other aircraft. In vertical position the smaller [than conventional
helicopter] props must use more fuel than helicopters but that
shouldn't be much of a drawback if they only need to spend a minute or
so getting to fixed wing mode.

The higher speed Harrier jump jet must require a faster controller.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:29:43 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Fields is an Ass"
"Phil Allison"

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate. Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?


** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

---
So after, say, three hours out, the Mosquitoes were 120 miles ahead of
the P-38s, dropped their bombs with impunity and then rejoined their
"escort" on the way back to base?

That doesn't seem to make much sense, so where'd your intel come from?
---

( snip JF drivel )

---
Geez, and here lately I thought you were trying to take the high road.

I guess I was wrong..
---

The F104 Starfighter was a similar disaster in Europe, with hundreds of
fatal losses in peace time exercises flown by German and Canadian pilots.
There were many grim jokes made about it, like calling it the "Ground
Dart"
and a "Widowmaker". The Wiki on the F104 covers many of the design flaws
and problems fairly well.

That there was a massive bribery scandal surrounding Lockheed and the
German
purchase of F104s is another story too.

---
"politics as usual" I suspect.

** Corporate corruption by Lockheed resulting in over a hundred dead fighter
pilots and lost planes is one hell of a scandal.

---
Wow, that's a sweeping generalization and, since you weren't there, I
guess your indignation is based on hearsay.
---

The German public used to joke that to acquire an F104, you only needed to
buy a small patch of land and wait.

Funny guys, those Germans.

---
Yeah.

I seem to recall having read somewhere that a Volkswagen's ashtray can
hold 9 Jews.
---

BTW:

Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.
.... Phil

---
You post no evidence substantiating the validity of your position and
yet take the position that you should be kow-towed to, just on your
own say-so.

Perhaps you'd like to change your name to Kim Jong Phil?

--
JF

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields = fucking nut case "

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its
unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate.
Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep
up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?


** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long
range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

---
So after, say, three hours out, the Mosquitoes were 120 miles ahead of
the P-38s,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

That doesn't seem to make much sense,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

"politics as usual" I suspect.

** Corporate corruption by Lockheed resulting in over a hundred dead
fighter
pilots and lost planes is one hell of a scandal.

---
Wow, that's a sweeping generalization

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

FFS read the Wikis on the F104 and the Lockheed scandals.

Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

You post no evidence substantiating the validity of your position

** Merely referring to common knowledge.

Do your own fucking reading !!!

You shit awful, ASD fucked turd.



..... Phil

 

[John Fields]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:49:22 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Fields = fucking nut case "

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its
unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate.
Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep
up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?


** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long
range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

---
So after, say, three hours out, the Mosquitoes were 120 miles ahead of
the P-38s,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

---
OK, but then arguing from a position of ignorance, and believing your
claim that the Mosquitos were faster than the P-38's, why would the
P-38's have even been considered as escorts?
---

That doesn't seem to make much sense,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.


"politics as usual" I suspect.

** Corporate corruption by Lockheed resulting in over a hundred dead
fighter
pilots and lost planes is one hell of a scandal.

---
Wow, that's a sweeping generalization


** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

FFS read the Wikis on the F104 and the Lockheed scandals.

Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy.

You post no evidence substantiating the validity of your position


** Merely referring to common knowledge.

Do your own fucking reading !!!

You shit awful, ASD fucked turd.

---
Ah, that's the Phil we all know and love...



--
JF

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields = fucking nut case "

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its
unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots
and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate.
Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep
up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?


** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long
range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

---
So after, say, three hours out, the Mosquitoes were 120 miles ahead of
the P-38s,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic
logical
fallacy.

---
OK, but then arguing from a position of ignorance, and believing your
claim that the Mosquitos were faster than the P-38's,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy .

BTW:

I never made any such claim, you lying prick !!

FFS learn to READ !!

The P38 could faster than a Mosquito bomber, but had a lower best cruising
speed. In attempting to fly with Mosquitoes on a long range mission, P38s
risked running out of fuel and / or keeping insufficient reserve available
for engaging enemy fighters in combat.

The idea was attempted, one or twice, then abandoned as Mosquitoes could fly
high and fast enough on the return journey ( with no bombs and less fuel) to
completely avoid German fighters - which meant having a P38 escort was more
a hazard than a help.

None of which has ONE TINY THING to do with your posting that fucking
stupid bullshit video.


..... Phil

 

[Bret Cahill]

The higher speed Harrier jump jet must require a faster controller.

AFAIK, The Harrier's controller is between the pilot's ears. That's why
the selection process, and training are so intensive.

The Harrier design predates fly-by-wire.

That must be one of the most obvious control applications. Even a
primitive 70 year old EMP proof [pre micro chip] system would be
better than nothing.

Who wants to risk his life learning such a [now] useless skill? If it
was a safe low budget sport or entertainment or something it might
make sense but when lives and big money are at stake it's just crazy.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

If you could go back in time, what would be the worst errors you could
correct for various wars.  These should be things that could be
implemented pretty fast without first developing a whole new industry.

For example, planes in WWII had swept back wings when they should have
been swept forward.

They already did the culinary equivalent:

http://uverseonline.att.net/tv/show/time-machine-chefs


Bret Cahill

 

[John Fields]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:40:47 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Fields = fucking nut case "

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its
unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots
and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate.
Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep
up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?


** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long
range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

---
So after, say, three hours out, the Mosquitoes were 120 miles ahead of
the P-38s,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic
logical
fallacy.

---
OK, but then arguing from a position of ignorance, and believing your
claim that the Mosquitos were faster than the P-38's,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic logical
fallacy .

BTW:

I never made any such claim, you lying prick !!

FFS learn to READ !!

---
You never made the claim that the Mosquito was all-out faster than the
P-38, but you _did_ write: "Worse than that and despite its reputation
for high speed, it could NOT keep up with the British ( all wooden)
Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.", yes?
---

The P38 could faster than a Mosquito bomber, but had a lower best cruising
speed. In attempting to fly with Mosquitoes on a long range mission, P38s
risked running out of fuel and / or keeping insufficient reserve available
for engaging enemy fighters in combat.

The idea was attempted, one or twice, then abandoned as Mosquitoes could fly
high and fast enough on the return journey ( with no bombs and less fuel) to
completely avoid German fighters - which meant having a P38 escort was more
a hazard than a help.

---
So you're saying that more Mosquitos were downed because they had P-38
escorts than would have been the case if they were unescorted???
---

None of which has ONE TINY THING to do with your posting that fucking
stupid bullshit video.

---
You don't like Lockheed, huh?

--
JF

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields = fucking nut case "


** All you need to know, in one phrase.

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields"

Here's an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3viiJ4g5G8&feature=related

** Interesting only cos it is a blatant PR exercise for Lockheed and
contains more pure Yankee bullshit it than I have ever seen an aviation
video before. Got enough errors and misrepresentations to choke an elephant,
far too many to list.

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate. Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

The F104 Starfighter was a similar disaster in Europe, with hundreds of
fatal losses in peace time exercises flown by German and Canadian pilots.
There were many grim jokes made about it, like calling it the "Ground Dart"
and a "Widowmaker". The Wiki on the F104 covers many of the design flaws
and problems fairly well.

That there was a massive bribery scandal surrounding Lockheed and the German
purchase of F104s is another story too.

Wot a bunch of cunts.



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Fields = MORONIC LYING PIG "

Here's an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3viiJ4g5G8&feature=related

** Interesting only cos it is a blatant PR exercise for Lockheed and
contains more pure Yankee bullshit it than I have ever seen an aviation
video before. Got enough errors and misrepresentations to choke an elephant,
far too many to list.

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate. Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

The F104 Starfighter was a similar disaster in Europe, with hundreds of
fatal losses in peace time exercises flown by German and Canadian pilots.
There were many grim jokes made about it, like calling it the "Ground Dart"
and a "Widowmaker". The Wiki on the F104 covers many of the design flaws
and problems fairly well.

That there was a massive bribery scandal surrounding Lockheed and the German
purchase of F104s is another story too.

Even bigger, lying cunts than John Fields.



..... Phil

 

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:tmr2389s45khf1f90c68vd9ui8n1t7aru8@4ax.com...

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:49:22 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:


"John Fields = fucking nut case "

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its
unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots
and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate.
Worse
than that and despite its reputation for high speed, it could NOT keep
up
with the British ( all wooden) Mosquito *bombers* on escort missions.

---
Then it seems it would have been prudent for the bombers to slow down
a little, no?


** Nope, the Mosquitoes were simply flying at the best speed for long
range
while carrying a full bomb load - about 240 mph.

Due largely to the efforts of Charles Lindberg ( of Spirit of St Louis
fame) the P38 cruised at under 200mph.

---
So after, say, three hours out, the Mosquitoes were 120 miles ahead of
the P-38s,

** Arguing from a position of ignorance, like you are, is a classic
logical
fallacy.

---
OK, but then arguing from a position of ignorance, and believing your
claim that the Mosquitos were faster than the P-38's, why would the
P-38's have even been considered as escorts?

The P38 was designed from the outset as a fighter - the Mozzy was designed
specifially to be as light & fast as possible, made entirely of wood &
powered by 2 Merlin engines, it could outrun any German fighter - at least
when it first entered service.

AFAIK its primary role was a precision light bomber, but it was also
extensively used for photo-recon work and was the favuorite master
pathfinder equiped with H2S groundmapping radar.

Although it was originally produced without guns to save weight (being
faster than the krauts is the best defence) a gun/cannon pack was produced,
the Mozzy also made an excellent night intercepter.

 

[Ian Field]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:a9eeg6F2emU1@mid.individual.net...

"John Fields"

Here's an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3viiJ4g5G8&feature=related


** Interesting only cos it is a blatant PR exercise for Lockheed and
contains more pure Yankee bullshit it than I have ever seen an aviation
video before. Got enough errors and misrepresentations to choke an
elephant,
far too many to list.

But here are couple of truths:

The P38 Lightning was a near disaster in the European theatre, its unique
twin boom layout made it instantly recognisable to Luftwaffe pilots and
ground observers soon as one appeared which led to a high loss rate.

"Friendly-fire" losses were far more serious - pretty much anything with a
radial engine got mistook for an FW190!

 

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Field"

The P38 was designed from the outset as a fighter - the Mozzy was designed
specifially to be as light & fast as possible, made entirely of wood &
powered by 2 Merlin engines, it could outrun any German fighter - at least
when it first entered service.

AFAIK its primary role was a precision light bomber,

** The only way do carry out that job was at low level in daylight - so
extremely risky over any part of France or Germany.

The famous break out from the Amiens prison was facilitated by such a
daylight raid and the unarmed bombers were escorted by, guess what, fighter
versions of the Mossie. On the return trip from this raid, they were
pounced on by FW190s and one Mossie crew managed to down three attackers in
90 seconds while flying at tree top height.

Although it was originally produced without guns to save weight (being
faster than the krauts is the best defence) a gun/cannon pack was
produced, the Mozzy also made an excellent night intercepter.

** There were 4 x 20mm cannons down low and 4 x 0.303s up high in the nose.



..... Phil