Long range, low bitrate, small data transceiver unit for tel

[Leo Patrick]

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?

 

[Alan]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:41:19 +1000, "Leo Patrick" <lp> wrote:

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?


Satellite phones

--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jenal Communications
Manufacturers and Suppliers of HF Selcall
P O Box 1108, Morley, Western Australia
Tel: +61 8 9370 5533 Fax +61 8 9467 6146
Web Site: http://www.jenal.com
Contact: http://www.jenal.com/?p=1
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Phil Allison]

"Leo Patrick"

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to
be used on a telemetry application?

** Sure - long as they are installed onboard a space craft.

Try asking NASA.



.......... Phil

 

[atec]

Leo Patrick wrote:

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?



wireless ap and decent directional dishs

 

[Anchor]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:41:19 +1000, Leo Patrick wrote:

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?

Would a GSM/GPRS cell phone data module work?

See http://www.multitech.com/PRODUCTS/Families/SocketModemGPRS/

They work great where ever you have cell phone coverage. The data charges
can add up if you have to move a lot of data. The costs are low for
low data rate applications. $25/month (Canadian dollars) gives us
256KB/month which means about 8KB/day. The more data you sign up for, the
lower the cost per byte. Check with your GSM cell phone provider.

The hardware is reasonable priced and the developer's kit is inexpensive.
The dev kit even includes a power supply with power cords for most
countries except Australia.

 

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?

Satellite phones

Actually, that raises an interesting question - I know various
applications including buoys, wild animal research collars, etc. use a
satellite uplink to communicate GPS data and other telemetry to home
base.

Who does one contact about buying bytes on a bird like this? I'd be
interested to find out what it costs to set up this sort of thing.

 

[Mark Borgerson]

In article <1121086363.856386.148120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larwe@larwe.com says...

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?

Satellite phones

Actually, that raises an interesting question - I know various
applications including buoys, wild animal research collars, etc. use a
satellite uplink to communicate GPS data and other telemetry to home
base.

Who does one contact about buying bytes on a bird like this? I'd be
interested to find out what it costs to set up this sort of thing.


http://www.argosinc.com/

A general search on argos satellite applications will yield lots of
results.


Mark Borgerson

 

Who does one contact about buying bytes on a bird like this? I'd be
interested to find out what it costs to set up this sort of thing.

http://www.argosinc.com/

A general search on argos satellite applications will yield lots of
results.

EXTREMELY interesting, thanks for the link! One transmission a day on a
floating platform is about $77 per month, which gives you position data
plus 256 bits of telemetry.

There is a clause in there about not being able to get bird time if
there is a commercial equivalent to Argos, though. I wonder what
commercial equivalents there are... hmm, more research necessary.

 

[KenHopkins]

There are some devices that are good for 10Km, but probably not much
more...
see http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/products/bim1.htm

Ken
www.claymore-electronic.co.uk

 

[Paul Keinanen]

On 11 Jul 2005 11:54:41 -0700, "KenHopkins" <k.hopkins@btinternet.com>
wrote:

There are some devices that are good for 10Km, but probably not much
more...
see http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/products/bim1.htm

10 km would be quite optimistic for those devices.

The sensitivity is specified at -120 dBm, which is about the same as
specified for NBFM radio telephones in the VHF range. These have
typically 1-5 W of transmitter power and in portable operation with
their own antenna, a few km of reliable coverage would be expected.

The original poster is apparently in Australia, so the 0,1 W output
power for the Radiometrix module could be used, however, in Europe,
only 0.01 W transmitter power could be used, thus reducing the range
even further.

To realistically reach the 10 km distance, the other station would
have to be high up in a cellular or water tower or alternatively, at
both ends of the link, the antenna would have to be above the tree
tops or on top of the buildings in urban areas.

If the system is intended for export, it should be noted that the
regulations for various radio transmitting devices varies
considerably, including allowed frequency bands, power levels,
acceptance tests etc. for licensed and license exempt devices.

I would suggest using GPRS if it is available in the area.

Paul

 

[Tom]

Leo Patrick wrote:

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?



Have a look at www.elprotech.com - the modems will do 20-30 km depending

on terrain and antennas, battery life would depend how much you want to
transmit.

Tom

 

[Magnus McElroy]

Leo Patrick wrote:

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be
used on a telemetry application?

Yes, we make them. We put GPS engines on collars and transmit the data
over RF. In order to get the kind of range you're looking for, you have
to have special transmitters and receivers and nice conditions. For
example, our Osprey model has 150dB gain. It's a small (one-handed),
water-resistant, battery-powered receiver. We get 50 miles / 80km with
ideal conditions with a good antenna.

If people, mountains, rain, animals, trees, rocks, buildings, cars, etc
are in the LOS, you'll get reductions in range.

As for batteries, there are lead-acid batteries and there are Lithium
cells. How much weight can you afford?

How much data do you want to send? Beyond certain thresholds - which are
very small - the data can get corrupted very easily. Small amounts of
data (10-50 bytes) work very well.

Someone else mentioned Argos - we have our own Argos PTT, and we do sell
them seperately and/or to third parties. Trust me, you do not repeat NOT
want to make one yourself.

--
Magnus McElroy
Electrical Engineer (EIT)
HABIT Research
http://www.habitresearch.com
(250) 381-9425

 

[Leo Patrick]

Thank you very much for the "Argos" link.
I have found it very interesting. Following link from the Argos' web site
provides a list of transmitter manufacturer for the Argos system
http://www.argosinc.com/documents/list_manufs.doc

My intented implementation in the original posting/question is a
semi-controlled baloon. Because of the very limited weight carrying
capability of the baloon, we can not carry big, high power transceivers.
Transmitters for the Argos' system could be very small (as light weight as
7gram t be carried on a bird http://www.argosinc.com/documents/sysdesc.pdf)
.. But because our implementation requires two way communication and we do
not have the oportunity to wait the next pass of the Argos' satellites over
Australia, unfortunatelly Argos system does not seems to be applicable in
our case.

So I'm still looking for
* Long range (10-100km)
* Low bitrate (1200-19200 baud)
* Small
* Battery operated
* radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be used
between a semi-controlled baloon and a ground station for telemetry and
control application.

Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data
to be
used on a telemetry application?

Satellite phones

Actually, that raises an interesting question - I know various
applications including buoys, wild animal research collars, etc. use a
satellite uplink to communicate GPS data and other telemetry to home
base.

Who does one contact about buying bytes on a bird like this? I'd be
interested to find out what it costs to set up this sort of thing.


http://www.argosinc.com/

A general search on argos satellite applications will yield lots of
results.


Mark Borgerson

 

[Paul Keinanen]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:09:31 +1000, "Leo Patrick" <lp> wrote:

My intented implementation in the original posting/question is a
semi-controlled baloon. Because of the very limited weight carrying
capability of the baloon, we can not carry big, high power transceivers.

Why didn't you say that in the first place ?

It makes *ALL* the difference if the stations are down in the ground
clutter of if you have a free line-of-sight path.

So I'm still looking for
* Long range (10-100km)
* Low bitrate (1200-19200 baud)
* Small
* Battery operated
* radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be used
between a semi-controlled baloon and a ground station for telemetry and
control application.

So apparently you only have the weight restrictions on the balloon
system, not on the ground system?

Do you have power restrictions on the ground system ?

Could you use directional tracking antennas on the ground ?

With such applications, I would suggest that you stay away from the
license free bands and get a dedicated frequency (pair) with a
sufficient power limit (say 1-100 W) for the ground transmitter from
your telecom authorities.

For the control functions, you might even consider systems intended
for model aircraft control and use a completely separate system for
telemetry downlink on a different frequency band and thus be able to
continuously communicate in both directions. You might even set up
multiple telemetry receiving stations on the ground at different
locations.

Paul

 

[Phil Allison]

"Paul Keinanen"
"Leo Patrick"

My intented implementation in the original posting/question is a
semi-controlled baloon. Because of the very limited weight carrying
capability of the baloon, we can not carry big, high power transceivers.

Why didn't you say that in the first place ?

** Don't get too excited just yet - there are still heaps of important
details the OP has not revealed about his app.

It makes *ALL* the difference if the stations are down in the ground
clutter of if you have a free line-of-sight path.

** At 100 km range, that damn balloon better be up in the stratosphere for
a free line of sight !

Could you use directional tracking antennas on the ground ?

** With a Tx weighing in at circa 7 gm all up @ 100 km range plus hovering
barely on the horizon, the OP will need access to the Parkes radio telescope
dish !

With such applications, I would suggest that you stay away from the
license free bands and get a dedicated frequency (pair) with a
sufficient power limit (say 1-100 W) for the ground transmitter from
your telecom authorities.

** Needs plenty of watts on the up link plus massive gain with a tracking
dish for the down link.

For the control functions, you might even consider systems intended
for model aircraft control and use a completely separate system for
telemetry downlink on a different frequency band and thus be able to
continuously communicate in both directions. You might even set up
multiple telemetry receiving stations on the ground at different
locations.

** Or just get NASA to help out.

They could help the OP with his spelling too.




............ Phil

 

[Paul Keinanen]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:35:19 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

It makes *ALL* the difference if the stations are down in the ground
clutter of if you have a free line-of-sight path.


** At 100 km range, that damn balloon better be up in the stratosphere for
a free line of sight !

Theoretically, you only need to be at 625 m altitude to get the 100 km
radio horizon, in which the attenuation is only slightly larger than
direct line of sight. From a plane flying at 10 km, the whole island
of Cyprus (about 150 km long) fits nicely into a singe view.

With such applications, I would suggest that you stay away from the
license free bands and get a dedicated frequency (pair) with a
sufficient power limit (say 1-100 W) for the ground transmitter from
your telecom authorities.


** Needs plenty of watts on the up link plus massive gain with a tracking
dish for the down link.

A 100 km troposcatter path not very hard with directional antennas and
moderate transmitter power.

Paul

 

[Phil Allison]

"Paul Keinanen"
"Phil Allison"

It makes *ALL* the difference if the stations are down in the ground
clutter of if you have a free line-of-sight path.


** At 100 km range, that damn balloon better be up in the stratosphere
for
a free line of sight !

Theoretically, you only need to be at 625 m altitude to get the 100 km
radio horizon,

** Over water that is about the *visible* horizon from 625m - providing
there are no waves at all.

BUT for a CLEAR line of sight over terrain that may include ground levels
thousands of feet above sea level - my comment stands.

in which the attenuation is only slightly larger than
direct line of sight.

** That 100 km diameter mill pond is damn hard to find.

From a plane flying at 10 km, the whole island
of Cyprus (about 150 km long) fits nicely into a singe view.

** 10 km altitude IS in the stratosphere, depending on one's latitude.

The OP likely wants his 100 km range to extend right down to local ground
level - to maintain remote control.

With such applications, I would suggest that you stay away from the
license free bands and get a dedicated frequency (pair) with a
sufficient power limit (say 1-100 W) for the ground transmitter from
your telecom authorities.


** Needs plenty of watts on the up link plus massive gain with a tracking
dish for the down link.

A 100 km troposcatter path not very hard with directional antennas and
moderate transmitter power.

** How lovely and vague.

And useless and smartarse.



.............. Phil

 

[Keithr]

"Leo Patrick" <lp> wrote:

Thank you very much for the "Argos" link.
I have found it very interesting. Following link from the Argos' web site
provides a list of transmitter manufacturer for the Argos system
http://www.argosinc.com/documents/list_manufs.doc

My intented implementation in the original posting/question is a
semi-controlled baloon. Because of the very limited weight carrying
capability of the baloon, we can not carry big, high power transceivers.
Transmitters for the Argos' system could be very small (as light weight as
7gram t be carried on a bird
http://www.argosinc.com/documents/sysdesc.pdf) . But because our
implementation requires two way communication and we do not have the
oportunity to wait the next pass of the Argos' satellites over Australia,
unfortunatelly Argos system does not seems to be applicable in our case.

So I'm still looking for
* Long range (10-100km)
* Low bitrate (1200-19200 baud)
* Small
* Battery operated
* radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data to be used
between a semi-controlled baloon and a ground station for telemetry and
control application.




Is there long range (10-100km), low bitrate (1200-19200 baud), small,
baterry operated radio transceiver units to send/receive digital data
to be
used on a telemetry application?

Satellite phones

Actually, that raises an interesting question - I know various
applications including buoys, wild animal research collars, etc. use a
satellite uplink to communicate GPS data and other telemetry to home
base.

Who does one contact about buying bytes on a bird like this? I'd be
interested to find out what it costs to set up this sort of thing.


http://www.argosinc.com/

A general search on argos satellite applications will yield lots of
results.


Mark Borgerson

These people would seem to have trod the same path already

http://balloons.space.edu/habp/

 

[Mark Harriss]

Phil Allison wrote:

** How lovely and vague.

And useless and smartarse.



............. Phil

Anyone would be forgiven for thinking you have a
monopoly on RF technology. You get nasty when Paul
confronts your good story with actual facts based
on such wishy washy crap like geometry and real
world observations. Sounds like you want him to go
away and stop undermining your "AWW-thorra-TAY".


kind regards
Mark

 

[Tauno Voipio]

Phil Allison wrote:

** At 100 km range, that damn balloon better be up in the stratosphere for
a free line of sight !

Not actually - the ICAO standard formula for radio
horizon distance is

d = 1.23 * sqrt(altitude)

where d is in NM (nautical miles, 1852 m) and
altitude in feet (0.3048 m)

This gives 1927 ft (587 m) above terrain for 100 km.

Please note that the distance is larger than obtained
from direct geometric consideration. This is due to
the refraction of electromagnetic radiation in the
atmosphere.

--

Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi