Logic analyzers...

[Three Jeeps]

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Up front note: I am a believer in high end logic analyzers after I was part of a team to evaluate (at HP\'s request) their two products (1602A, 1610 a )logic analyzers back in the day. Fast fwd to 2023....
Without knowing some of your requirements (speed, channels, etc.) hard to say. Still, I\'d point you to Keysight 16861A - a 34 channel LA or the 16862a (currently have one in my lab). May not be in the budget you have. I\'d consider a older used unit.

If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products. Fairly good sampling rates: 500 MS/s and 100 MHz for digital, and analog of 50 MS/s and 5 MHz.

I have seen but not used a Digilent product, which intrigues me:
Digilent Digital (or Analog) discovery.
https://digilent.com/shop/digital-discovery-portable-usb-logic-analyzer-and-digital-pattern-generator/
https://digilent.com/search.php?search_query_adv=%22discovery%22

A colleague of mine recently got this for his lab, which he likes (after doing a fair bit of searching). It may be more functionality than you need but the DA +LA functions are intriguing...
https://www.dreamsourcelab.com
In general, I am not a big fan of having test gear tied to a PC ....You are tied into continuous vendor support to keep up with OS updates and changes, unless one freezes their environment.

Good luck

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a
Chinese knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for
characterizing the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been
helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample
rates it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight
bucks on it.

Looks like that thing has a mind of its own with lots of interplay
between available internal resources and your acquisition settings. I
don\'t like the sound of that loop buffer for the sample data where it
sounds like it just writes over old data without even telling you.
Then the spec says it has a \"10+ billion\" ( somethings they don\'t
say) sample memory depth, which leads you to believe they can buffer
a significant amount of sample time, but then it goes on to say your
computer is the buffer memory.

All logic analyzer designs are illogical.

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae
to take in the stream, and read that out later.

This one is just a dongle with a single chip in it, a copy of Saleae\'s
original Logic (originally $149), which they no longer sell. So it
relies pretty heavily on the USB bandwidth and latency of the computer.

Simon is using it with Sigrok, I think. Certainly we\'re not using the
Saleae software.

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a
Chinese knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for
characterizing the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been
helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample
rates it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight
bucks on it.

Looks like that thing has a mind of its own with lots of interplay
between available internal resources and your acquisition settings. I
don\'t like the sound of that loop buffer for the sample data where it
sounds like it just writes over old data without even telling you.
Then the spec says it has a \"10+ billion\" ( somethings they don\'t
say) sample memory depth, which leads you to believe they can buffer
a significant amount of sample time, but then it goes on to say your
computer is the buffer memory.

All logic analyzer designs are illogical.

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae
to take in the stream, and read that out later.

This one is just a dongle with a single chip in it, a copy of Saleae\'s
original Logic (originally $149), which they no longer sell. So it
relies pretty heavily on the USB bandwidth and latency of the computer.

Simon is using it with Sigrok, I think. Certainly we\'re not using the
Saleae software.

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a
Chinese knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for
characterizing the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been
helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample
rates it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight
bucks on it.

Looks like that thing has a mind of its own with lots of interplay
between available internal resources and your acquisition settings. I
don\'t like the sound of that loop buffer for the sample data where it
sounds like it just writes over old data without even telling you.
Then the spec says it has a \"10+ billion\" ( somethings they don\'t
say) sample memory depth, which leads you to believe they can buffer
a significant amount of sample time, but then it goes on to say your
computer is the buffer memory.

All logic analyzer designs are illogical.

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae
to take in the stream, and read that out later.

This one is just a dongle with a single chip in it, a copy of Saleae\'s
original Logic (originally $149), which they no longer sell. So it
relies pretty heavily on the USB bandwidth and latency of the computer.

Simon is using it with Sigrok, I think. Certainly we\'re not using the
Saleae software.

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed USB

Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like. Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/Glitch.png> and
<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/GlitchDetail.png>.

These are single frames from a cell phone video summary, so they aren\'t
perfect, but they get the point across.

The red curve is the ADC samples, plotted against the right hand scale,
and the blue curve is the input ramp signal, plotted against the left
hand scale in volts. The horizontal scale is seconds. The two curves
were roughly aligned by eye, which accounts for the minor time scale
error. The ADC clock was 1 MHz, and the logic analyzer\'s was 16 MHz
(give or take).

As you can see, it\'s not just a normal sort of high-order carry glitch,
or even really just a DNL issue at all, because it takes many samples
to recover.

The sawtooth is pretty blameless. It\'s based on a bootstrap ramp
generator. (I got the idea from JL long ago.)

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/RampGeneratorRedrawn1.6.pdf>

Differentiating the ramp with a 20 nF / 1k ohm RC, it\'s linear to within
10 ppm or thereabouts. There\'s a small soakage tail lasting about 2 ms
after the reset, because I actually used a mylar cap rather than
polyprop, but after that the differentiated output is basically just the
noise of the TCA0372 (22 nV in 1 Hz). And of course the TCA0372 output
looks like a car battery (1.4 A).

We\'ll try it again with another chip, because it\'s possible that we blew
this one up in some artistic manner.

Fun.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed USB

Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like. Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/Glitch.png> and
<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/GlitchDetail.png>.

These are single frames from a cell phone video summary, so they aren\'t
perfect, but they get the point across.

The red curve is the ADC samples, plotted against the right hand scale,
and the blue curve is the input ramp signal, plotted against the left
hand scale in volts. The horizontal scale is seconds. The two curves
were roughly aligned by eye, which accounts for the minor time scale
error. The ADC clock was 1 MHz, and the logic analyzer\'s was 16 MHz
(give or take).

As you can see, it\'s not just a normal sort of high-order carry glitch,
or even really just a DNL issue at all, because it takes many samples
to recover.

The sawtooth is pretty blameless. It\'s based on a bootstrap ramp
generator. (I got the idea from JL long ago.)

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/RampGeneratorRedrawn1.6.pdf>

Differentiating the ramp with a 20 nF / 1k ohm RC, it\'s linear to within
10 ppm or thereabouts. There\'s a small soakage tail lasting about 2 ms
after the reset, because I actually used a mylar cap rather than
polyprop, but after that the differentiated output is basically just the
noise of the TCA0372 (22 nV in 1 Hz). And of course the TCA0372 output
looks like a car battery (1.4 A).

We\'ll try it again with another chip, because it\'s possible that we blew
this one up in some artistic manner.

Fun.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed USB

Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like. Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/Glitch.png> and
<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/GlitchDetail.png>.

These are single frames from a cell phone video summary, so they aren\'t
perfect, but they get the point across.

The red curve is the ADC samples, plotted against the right hand scale,
and the blue curve is the input ramp signal, plotted against the left
hand scale in volts. The horizontal scale is seconds. The two curves
were roughly aligned by eye, which accounts for the minor time scale
error. The ADC clock was 1 MHz, and the logic analyzer\'s was 16 MHz
(give or take).

As you can see, it\'s not just a normal sort of high-order carry glitch,
or even really just a DNL issue at all, because it takes many samples
to recover.

The sawtooth is pretty blameless. It\'s based on a bootstrap ramp
generator. (I got the idea from JL long ago.)

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/RampGeneratorRedrawn1.6.pdf>

Differentiating the ramp with a 20 nF / 1k ohm RC, it\'s linear to within
10 ppm or thereabouts. There\'s a small soakage tail lasting about 2 ms
after the reset, because I actually used a mylar cap rather than
polyprop, but after that the differentiated output is basically just the
noise of the TCA0372 (22 nV in 1 Hz). And of course the TCA0372 output
looks like a car battery (1.4 A).

We\'ll try it again with another chip, because it\'s possible that we blew
this one up in some artistic manner.

Fun.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:33:56 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.25.55 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.01.44 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.
Looks like that thing has a mind of its own with lots of interplay between available internal resources and your acquisition settings. I don\'t like the sound of that loop buffer for the sample data where it sounds like it just writes over old data without even telling you. Then the spec says it has a \"10+ billion\" ( somethings they don\'t say) sample memory depth, which leads you to believe they can buffer a significant amount of sample time, but then it goes on to say your computer is the buffer memory.
it streams input data directly to the PC, there is no buffer
Then what is that sample memory depth about in the spec sheet?
they have to write something, they could have written unlimited except by resources on PC

All logic analyzer designs are illogical.

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae to take in the stream, and read that out later.
that\'s not how USB works
That\'s how a USB stick works, and this analyzer says it has a USB output. Sounds like a match to me.
no, that is not how USB works

I don\'t give a d___ how USB works. I do know there\'s an infinitude of versatility with those thumb drives. Find one that works.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:33:56 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.25.55 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.01.44 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.
Looks like that thing has a mind of its own with lots of interplay between available internal resources and your acquisition settings. I don\'t like the sound of that loop buffer for the sample data where it sounds like it just writes over old data without even telling you. Then the spec says it has a \"10+ billion\" ( somethings they don\'t say) sample memory depth, which leads you to believe they can buffer a significant amount of sample time, but then it goes on to say your computer is the buffer memory.
it streams input data directly to the PC, there is no buffer
Then what is that sample memory depth about in the spec sheet?
they have to write something, they could have written unlimited except by resources on PC

All logic analyzer designs are illogical.

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae to take in the stream, and read that out later.
that\'s not how USB works
That\'s how a USB stick works, and this analyzer says it has a USB output. Sounds like a match to me.
no, that is not how USB works

I don\'t give a d___ how USB works. I do know there\'s an infinitude of versatility with those thumb drives. Find one that works.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:33:56 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.25.55 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.01.44 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.
Looks like that thing has a mind of its own with lots of interplay between available internal resources and your acquisition settings. I don\'t like the sound of that loop buffer for the sample data where it sounds like it just writes over old data without even telling you. Then the spec says it has a \"10+ billion\" ( somethings they don\'t say) sample memory depth, which leads you to believe they can buffer a significant amount of sample time, but then it goes on to say your computer is the buffer memory.
it streams input data directly to the PC, there is no buffer
Then what is that sample memory depth about in the spec sheet?
they have to write something, they could have written unlimited except by resources on PC

All logic analyzer designs are illogical.

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae to take in the stream, and read that out later.
that\'s not how USB works
That\'s how a USB stick works, and this analyzer says it has a USB output. Sounds like a match to me.
no, that is not how USB works

I don\'t give a d___ how USB works. I do know there\'s an infinitude of versatility with those thumb drives. Find one that works.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for
characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on
it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and
with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro
16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some
of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev
board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed
USB


Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like.  Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/Glitch.png> and
https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/GlitchDetail.png>.

These are single frames from a cell phone video summary, so they aren\'t
perfect, but they get the point across.

The red curve is the ADC samples, plotted against the right hand scale,
and the blue curve is the input ramp signal, plotted against the left
hand scale in volts.  The horizontal scale is seconds.  The two curves
were roughly aligned by eye, which accounts for the minor time scale
error.  The ADC clock was 1 MHz, and the logic analyzer\'s was 16 MHz
(give or take).

As you can see, it\'s not just a normal sort of high-order carry glitch,
or even really just a DNL issue at all,  because it takes many samples
to recover.

The sawtooth is pretty blameless.  It\'s based on a bootstrap ramp
generator. (I got the idea from JL long ago.)

https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/RampGeneratorRedrawn1.6.pdf

Differentiating the ramp with a 20 nF / 1k ohm RC, it\'s linear to within
10 ppm or thereabouts.  There\'s a small soakage tail lasting about 2 ms
after the reset, because I actually used a mylar cap rather than
polyprop, but after that the differentiated output is basically just the
noise of the TCA0372 (22 nV in 1 Hz).  And of course the TCA0372 output
looks like a car battery (1.4 A).

We\'ll try it again with another chip, because it\'s possible that we blew
this one up in some artistic manner.

Fun.

Just noticed that the current source for the bootstrap was drawn wrong.
Fix underway.

PH

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for
characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on
it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and
with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro
16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some
of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev
board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed
USB


Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like.  Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/Glitch.png> and
https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/GlitchDetail.png>.

These are single frames from a cell phone video summary, so they aren\'t
perfect, but they get the point across.

The red curve is the ADC samples, plotted against the right hand scale,
and the blue curve is the input ramp signal, plotted against the left
hand scale in volts.  The horizontal scale is seconds.  The two curves
were roughly aligned by eye, which accounts for the minor time scale
error.  The ADC clock was 1 MHz, and the logic analyzer\'s was 16 MHz
(give or take).

As you can see, it\'s not just a normal sort of high-order carry glitch,
or even really just a DNL issue at all,  because it takes many samples
to recover.

The sawtooth is pretty blameless.  It\'s based on a bootstrap ramp
generator. (I got the idea from JL long ago.)

https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/RampGeneratorRedrawn1.6.pdf

Differentiating the ramp with a 20 nF / 1k ohm RC, it\'s linear to within
10 ppm or thereabouts.  There\'s a small soakage tail lasting about 2 ms
after the reset, because I actually used a mylar cap rather than
polyprop, but after that the differentiated output is basically just the
noise of the TCA0372 (22 nV in 1 Hz).  And of course the TCA0372 output
looks like a car battery (1.4 A).

We\'ll try it again with another chip, because it\'s possible that we blew
this one up in some artistic manner.

Fun.

Just noticed that the current source for the bootstrap was drawn wrong.
Fix underway.

PH

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for
characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on
it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and
with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro
16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some
of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev
board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed
USB


Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like.  Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/Glitch.png> and
https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/GlitchDetail.png>.

These are single frames from a cell phone video summary, so they aren\'t
perfect, but they get the point across.

The red curve is the ADC samples, plotted against the right hand scale,
and the blue curve is the input ramp signal, plotted against the left
hand scale in volts.  The horizontal scale is seconds.  The two curves
were roughly aligned by eye, which accounts for the minor time scale
error.  The ADC clock was 1 MHz, and the logic analyzer\'s was 16 MHz
(give or take).

As you can see, it\'s not just a normal sort of high-order carry glitch,
or even really just a DNL issue at all,  because it takes many samples
to recover.

The sawtooth is pretty blameless.  It\'s based on a bootstrap ramp
generator. (I got the idea from JL long ago.)

https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/RampGeneratorRedrawn1.6.pdf

Differentiating the ramp with a 20 nF / 1k ohm RC, it\'s linear to within
10 ppm or thereabouts.  There\'s a small soakage tail lasting about 2 ms
after the reset, because I actually used a mylar cap rather than
polyprop, but after that the differentiated output is basically just the
noise of the TCA0372 (22 nV in 1 Hz).  And of course the TCA0372 output
looks like a car battery (1.4 A).

We\'ll try it again with another chip, because it\'s possible that we blew
this one up in some artistic manner.

Fun.

Just noticed that the current source for the bootstrap was drawn wrong.
Fix underway.

PH

 

[three_jeeps]

On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed USB

Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like. Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

snip

I was chatting with one of my colleagues in our lab and asked him for input on lower cost USB based LAs. He pointed to this one which he said he purchased for his personal use (The $150USD version).
https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/shop-category/logic-analyzer/
He thought the software was well done and was an updated design that has a good amount of memory.
In looking at the offerings, the U3 Pro looks like a worthwhile feature upgrade, e.g. 1GHz sampling rate/8 channels, 500MHz/16 ch, Stream mode withUSB3 @ $300 USD

Good luck
J

 

[three_jeeps]

On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed USB

Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like. Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

snip

I was chatting with one of my colleagues in our lab and asked him for input on lower cost USB based LAs. He pointed to this one which he said he purchased for his personal use (The $150USD version).
https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/shop-category/logic-analyzer/
He thought the software was well done and was an updated design that has a good amount of memory.
In looking at the offerings, the U3 Pro looks like a worthwhile feature upgrade, e.g. 1GHz sampling rate/8 channels, 500MHz/16 ch, Stream mode withUSB3 @ $300 USD

Good luck
J

 

[three_jeeps]

On Thursday, January 12, 2023 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 21.26.12 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 03.02.11 UTC+1 skrev jjhu...@gmail.com:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:12:50 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
We\'ve been using a little 8-bit, 48-MHz USB logic analyzer--a Chinese
knockoff of a Saleae Logic 8. It\'s been pretty handy for characterizing
the ADC in a bathymetric lidar chip we\'ve been helping design.

It\'ll stream data forever at 16 MS/s. However, at higher sample rates
it quits after ~100k samples. Sheesh, and we spent eight bucks on it.

The USB form factor is nice, because it\'s the sort of instrument you
want to pull out and attach down in the guts of some gizmo, and with USB
you can just use a longer cable, which is convenient.

Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?


If you are drawn to PC-USB configurations, I\'ve used the Saleae Pro 16 and thought it was pretty good - a bit higher in price than some of the chinesium products.

\"a bit\", about 100x ...

The Chinesium ones use a Nordic 8-bit-parallel-to-USB3 chip, and the
rest is up to Sigrok.

Turns out that you can get 16 bits by using two of them at once. You
have to stitch the decoded data files together yourself, but that\'s not
too hard. (Simon\'s a Python whiz.)

Our setup is:

Dongle 0 ($5, AliExpress) : bit 0 = clock, bits 1-7 = ADC bits 0-6

Dongle 1 ($8, Amazon) : bit 0 = clock, bits 0-8 = ADC bits 6-13

They\'re both looking at the clock and at bit 6, so it\'s easy to align
the time stamps.

The ADC clock is coming from a Highland P400 DDG, so we just wired it
up, hit the green button to start the clock, and it just works. (BTW
the Ali one has the label on straight, and the Amazon one doesn\'t.)


I have a few, some are just bare boards (probably intended as USB dev board and I think it can do 16bits )

all based on a Cypress FX2 chip which basically a 8051 with high speed USB

Well, we\'re going to be in the market for a real 16-bit one, it looks
like. Turns out that this 12-bit ADC has a _gigantic_ glitch at the bit
10 carry--see

snip

I was chatting with one of my colleagues in our lab and asked him for input on lower cost USB based LAs. He pointed to this one which he said he purchased for his personal use (The $150USD version).
https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/shop-category/logic-analyzer/
He thought the software was well done and was an updated design that has a good amount of memory.
In looking at the offerings, the U3 Pro looks like a worthwhile feature upgrade, e.g. 1GHz sampling rate/8 channels, 500MHz/16 ch, Stream mode withUSB3 @ $300 USD

Good luck
J

 

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

[...]
Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?

I\'m quite pleased with my Saleae Logic. Definitely a pricey tool, but
I\'m very glad I spent the money on it...


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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

 

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

[...]
Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?

I\'m quite pleased with my Saleae Logic. Definitely a pricey tool, but
I\'m very glad I spent the money on it...


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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

 

[Dan Purgert]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-10, Phil Hobbs wrote:

[...]
Sooo, I\'m considering buying something a bit better than our $8
Chinesium knockoff. Suggestions?

I\'m quite pleased with my Saleae Logic. Definitely a pricey tool, but
I\'m very glad I spent the money on it...


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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

 

[whit3rd]

On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 7:08:00 AM UTC-8, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:33:56 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.25.55 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 11. januar 2023 kl. 15.01.44 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:

Maybe look for a fast USB disc you can plug directly into the Saleae to take in the stream, and read that out later.
that\'s not how USB works
That\'s how a USB stick works, and this analyzer says it has a USB output. Sounds like a match to me.
no, that is not how USB works
I don\'t give a d___ how USB works. I do know there\'s an infinitude of versatility with those thumb drives. Find one that works.

It\'s not that simple; write speed to flash is limited, and there\'s little RAM to buffer.
A spinning-rust hard drive, with a few dozen MB of RAM cache, outpaces thumb drives
for speed, and a short RAID stack can go faster yet. Your logic analyzer must deliver
specified write speeds that match a logic device, cannot generally tolerate the slow approximations of
a USB data stream.