lithium fires...

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:30:14 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 21:19, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 10:39:25 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 6. november 2022 kl. 19.08.51 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 09:45:18 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 6. november 2022 kl. 18.35.33 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

do you leave your battery powered tools, laptop or cellphone outside just to be sure?
et.al.
I don\'t have any battery powered tools. Mo has a little whipper thing
to make her own foamy coffee, but it uses (a lot of) AA batteries.

I haven\'t heard of fires from phones or laptops.

then you haven\'t been listening,

Don\'t be obnoxious.

Apple, Samsung et.al. have all had cases with
battery fires, billion dollar recalls, lawsuit

They don\'t make the news like the 200 building fires and six deaths in
Manhattan this year from bikes and scooters.

How many cell phone fires are there per year in the US?


183, says google.

That\'s minute compared to 200 building fires in Manhattan alone.

Phones top list of fires among electronic devices, says Health ...
https://www.cbc.ca › news › canada › nova-scotia › hea...
Nov 16, 2021 — There were 183 fires reported across the country over the
past five years involving phones and their accessories. The second most
frequent cause ...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-canada-phones-fires-2021-data-1.6249741

Over five years in Canada?

A 9 volt battery gets pretty hot of you short it. I wonder if that can
start a fire.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-11-07 11:14, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:49:31 PM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-11-06 19:08, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 09:45:18 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 6. november 2022 kl. 18.35.33 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

do you leave your battery powered tools, laptop or cellphone outside just to be sure?


I don\'t have any battery powered tools. Mo has a little whipper thing
to make her own foamy coffee, but it uses (a lot of) AA batteries.

I haven\'t heard of fires from phones or laptops. They use relatively
small, low peak power flat batteries so may be less of a fire hazard.
Better thermals and maybe different construction from vehicle
batteries.

Kilograms (or tons) of densely packed batteries is a whole nother
story. Fires seem to be in vehicle batteries.
[...]

We need some kind of flow battery, where the reagents are kept
separated until needed. Cheap, efficient, powerful flow batteries
are still elusive.

That\'s a gasoline engine, no?

Well, yes, but that\'s on it\'s way to being outlawed.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[legg]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 13:57:37 -0800, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:

On 2022/11/06 9:35 a.m., John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
...
There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Autopilot has trouble with motorcycles too. A number of riders have been
run down...

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2022/08/2-teslas-have-run-into-killed-motorcyclists-does-autopilot-not-see-them.html

https://www.rideapart.com/news/420777/tesla-autopilot-pedestrian-death-lawsuit/

https://newatlas.com/tesla-autopilot-fema/46045/

Bad enough dealing with idiot drivers and bad road surfaces, now we have
to avoid Teslas!

Sheesh!

I\'ve been riding pretty much year round since around 1972...

John :-#(#

If you don\'t treat cars as mindless automata, while riding
a bike (motored or otherwise), you\'re bound to be surprised.

I\'ve had vehicles cross two lanes of empty road with no
apparent aim except to force me onto the verge. Watch out for
black pick-ups and crew cabs, particularly. They seem to think
its a rodeo.

RL

 

[Ed Lee]

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 10:08:51 AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 09:45:18 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

søndag den 6. november 2022 kl. 18.35.33 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

do you leave your battery powered tools, laptop or cellphone outside just to be sure?

I don\'t have any battery powered tools. Mo has a little whipper thing
to make her own foamy coffee, but it uses (a lot of) AA batteries.

I haven\'t heard of fires from phones or laptops. They use relatively
small, low peak power flat batteries so may be less of a fire hazard.
Better thermals and maybe different construction from vehicle
batteries.

Kilograms (or tons) of densely packed batteries is a whole nother
story. Fires seem to be in vehicle batteries.

There aren\'t many cheap Chinese laptops or phones being sold here;
Apple and Dell and Samsung can\'t take risks with bad batteries. But
there are lots of cheap Chinese bikes and scooters.

It\'s the same Panasonic 1865/2170/4860 cells as in the laptops. I stick with 1865s because of the larger surface area vs. energy density for cooling. My primary battery is pouch cells, but it\'s around 50% capacity and not able to catch fire. I am planning on replacing them with 1865 as well.

An EV is like running 1000 laptops.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.

Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:53:38 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

Same with Volvo drivers.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/7/2022 11:00 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:53:38 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

Same with Volvo drivers.

I used to think of Volvos as an MD\'s car. But the Volvo used to be a
Saab if they were a doctor of psychiatry

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 14:37:56 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 11/7/2022 11:00 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:53:38 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

Same with Volvo drivers.


I used to think of Volvos as an MD\'s car. But the Volvo used to be a
Saab if they were a doctor of psychiatry

Saabs were great cars, between fires. Bad rivets on a fuse panel.

I theorize that Volvo drivers are bad drivers, had a wreck, and now
want something \"safe\". Or just like ugly cars.

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 12:45:28 -0800, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 14:37:56 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 11/7/2022 11:00 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:53:38 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

Same with Volvo drivers.


I used to think of Volvos as an MD\'s car. But the Volvo used to be a
Saab if they were a doctor of psychiatry

Saabs were great cars, between fires. Bad rivets on a fuse panel.

I wonder if Saab used Lucas electric stuff. Volvos did.

All hail Lucas, the Prince of Darkness! Sound the Trumpets!

I theorize that Volvo drivers are bad drivers, had a wreck, and now
want something \"safe\". Or just like ugly cars.

Well, they are safe, to the degree that any car can be safe.

Something like ten years ago, about 10:30AM on a clear dry day, I was
rear-ended on Route 128 (the inner ring road around Boston) while
slowing down and moving towards an exit ramp. I was hit by a fellow
coming off the corresponding in-ramp, acceleration to match speed with
a space in passing traffic, looking in the wrong direction. Full
speed impact - he never saw me. Nor did I see him, as he was in my
blind spot. I knew I;d been hit, because nothing else could have
caused that hard a shove.

Both cars were totaled. But nobody was hurt. Neither windshield was
broken, front or back. But the most amazing thing was that I did not
have any whiplash - the Volvo seats were built to absorb the energy,
and it worked.

My wife, seeing her husband walk away from such a crash, promptly
bought herself a Volvo. But she didn\'t like it all that much, because
it steered like a truck (which was always true), and had too large a
turning circle (which was a later development as the engine outgrew
the engine compartment, limiting how far the front wheels could turn).
(She got an Audi Q3.)

Joe Gwinn

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 12:45:28 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 14:37:56 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 11/7/2022 11:00 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:53:38 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

Same with Volvo drivers.


I used to think of Volvos as an MD\'s car. But the Volvo used to be a
Saab if they were a doctor of psychiatry

Saabs were great cars, between fires. Bad rivets on a fuse panel.
I wonder if Saab used Lucas electric stuff. Volvos did.

All hail Lucas, the Prince of Darkness! Sound the Trumpets!
I theorize that Volvo drivers are bad drivers, had a wreck, and now
want something \"safe\". Or just like ugly cars.
Well, they are safe, to the degree that any car can be safe.

Something like ten years ago, about 10:30AM on a clear dry day, I was
rear-ended on Route 128 (the inner ring road around Boston) while
slowing down and moving towards an exit ramp. I was hit by a fellow
coming off the corresponding in-ramp, acceleration to match speed with
a space in passing traffic, looking in the wrong direction. Full
speed impact - he never saw me. Nor did I see him, as he was in my
blind spot. I knew I;d been hit, because nothing else could have
caused that hard a shove.

Both cars were totaled. But nobody was hurt. Neither windshield was
broken, front or back. But the most amazing thing was that I did not
have any whiplash - the Volvo seats were built to absorb the energy,
and it worked.

My wife, seeing her husband walk away from such a crash, promptly
bought herself a Volvo. But she didn\'t like it all that much, because
it steered like a truck (which was always true), and had too large a
turning circle (which was a later development as the engine outgrew
the engine compartment, limiting how far the front wheels could turn).
(She got an Audi Q3.)

I always liked the handling of Volvos. They were very well balanced. I could take a highway entrance ramp at increasing speed, right up to the point where all four wheels would start to drift. I\'ve never had a car that did that. It was always the rear for rear wheel drive cars, or the front for front drive cars. The one extreme example of that was the a Corvair I owned for less than a year. It died like most Corvairs, going in reverse while in a forward gear. The autocross guys loved being able to get the rear of the car to go around the turn almost in front of the front wheels.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

mandag den 7. november 2022 kl. 23.22.37 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 12:45:28 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 14:37:56 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 11/7/2022 11:00 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:53:38 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:35 PM, John Larkin wrote:
Today\'s NYT describes a nasty fire in an apartment building in
Manhattan, started by a bicycle battery. There have been 200
battery-ignited fires in Manhattan so far this year, with six deaths.
Unless battery quality improves somehow, buildings will need fireproof
vaults for parking bikes and scooters.

I see lots of electric scooters and bikes on the streets of San
Francisco lately. Some have gigantic batteries. Those could become
hazards as they age. Theft is common so people want to take their
rides indoors.

There is also a full-page ad trashing Tesla, claiming that Autopilot
won\'t see a kid in the road.


Good thing Teslas can drive themselves, as their owners tend to not be
very good at doing it on their own

Same with Volvo drivers.


I used to think of Volvos as an MD\'s car. But the Volvo used to be a
Saab if they were a doctor of psychiatry

Saabs were great cars, between fires. Bad rivets on a fuse panel.
I wonder if Saab used Lucas electric stuff. Volvos did.

All hail Lucas, the Prince of Darkness! Sound the Trumpets!
I theorize that Volvo drivers are bad drivers, had a wreck, and now
want something \"safe\". Or just like ugly cars.
Well, they are safe, to the degree that any car can be safe.

Something like ten years ago, about 10:30AM on a clear dry day, I was
rear-ended on Route 128 (the inner ring road around Boston) while
slowing down and moving towards an exit ramp. I was hit by a fellow
coming off the corresponding in-ramp, acceleration to match speed with
a space in passing traffic, looking in the wrong direction. Full
speed impact - he never saw me. Nor did I see him, as he was in my
blind spot. I knew I;d been hit, because nothing else could have
caused that hard a shove.

Both cars were totaled. But nobody was hurt. Neither windshield was
broken, front or back. But the most amazing thing was that I did not
have any whiplash - the Volvo seats were built to absorb the energy,
and it worked.

My wife, seeing her husband walk away from such a crash, promptly
bought herself a Volvo. But she didn\'t like it all that much, because
it steered like a truck (which was always true), and had too large a
turning circle (which was a later development as the engine outgrew
the engine compartment, limiting how far the front wheels could turn).
(She got an Audi Q3.)
I always liked the handling of Volvos. They were very well balanced. I could take a highway entrance ramp at increasing speed, right up to the point where all four wheels would start to drift. I\'ve never had a car that did that. It was always the rear for rear wheel drive cars, or the front for front drive cars. The one extreme example of that was the a Corvair I owned for less than a year. It died like most Corvairs, going in reverse while in a forward gear. The autocross guys loved being able to get the rear of the car to go around the turn almost in front of the front wheels.

https://youtu.be/BKmA5ylD-rI

 

[Rich S]

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 10:45:21 PM UTC, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

mandag den 7. november 2022 kl. 23.22.37 UTC+1 skrev Ricky:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 12:45:28 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

[snip snip snip]
Tonite\'s news report on tellie said the person
plugged the wrong charger into the e-bike/e-scooter.
(and parked it near the doorway, so the fire blocked them from
safe normal exit!)

I guess people have more than one \"micro mobility device\"
and get confused about chargers.
But I\'m a bit surprised that these products
use the exact same DC connector (but only a bit surprised).

the other theory is that some folks are buying refurbished
battery packs, and we don\'t know the quality of that
refurbishment.

 

[May Bee]

<richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote

[snip snip snip]
Tonite\'s news report on tellie said the person
plugged the wrong charger into the e-bike/e-scooter.
(and parked it near the doorway, so the fire blocked them from
safe normal exit!)

I guess people have more than one \"micro mobility device\"
and get confused about chargers.
But I\'m a bit surprised that these products
use the exact same DC connector (but only a bit surprised).

the other theory is that some folks are buying refurbished
battery packs, and we don\'t know the quality of that
refurbishment.

Most people here now travel by jetpack.
I have even seen a couple flying hand in hand.
They keep it on even when shopping!