Lightning Strike...

[Phil Allison]

Trevor Wilson wrote:
=================

I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt.
It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground.
That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

Lightning happens.

**Wow! 56k. So fast.

** I well remember when 56K modems were the \" ant\'s pants\".
Slow jpegs, no video but OK for email & browsing text sites.

Quite astonishing they did that speed using nothing but one POTS voice circuit down miles of twisted pair.


........ Phil

 

[Rob]

Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Wow! 56k. So fast.

It was, in 1999. Broadband didn\'t hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That\'s what I have via AT&T DSL
now. The download isn\'t so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

Is that a posting from the previous decade that leaked in somehow?

My DSL is 170Mbps download, 30Mbps upload, and that is considered \"slow\"
here...

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 8:58:26 PM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:

On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Wow! 56k. So fast.

It was, in 1999. Broadband didn\'t hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Mb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.
I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That\'s what I have via AT&T DSL
now. The download isn\'t so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

Yes. I don\'t sleep well anymore, ad I\'m waiting for cataract surgery on both eyes so I miss some typos. I\'m sitting less than eight inches from a 24 inch monitor to be able to read text.

 

[Michael Trew]

On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

Michael Trew<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:
On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Wow! 56k. So fast.

It was, in 1999. Broadband didn\'t hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That\'s what I have via AT&T DSL
now. The download isn\'t so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

Is that a posting from the previous decade that leaked in somehow?

My DSL is 170Mbps download, 30Mbps upload, and that is considered \"slow\"
here...

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it. I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

 

[Michael Trew]

On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

Michael Trew<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:
On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Wow! 56k. So fast.

It was, in 1999. Broadband didn\'t hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That\'s what I have via AT&T DSL
now. The download isn\'t so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

Is that a posting from the previous decade that leaked in somehow?

My DSL is 170Mbps download, 30Mbps upload, and that is considered \"slow\"
here...

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it. I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

 

[Michael Trew]

On 10/2/2021 2:18 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

On 2/10/2021 10:54 am, Michael Trew wrote:
On 9/30/2021 2:43 PM, Peter W. wrote:
A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by
lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not
even blink, however, there were consequences:
a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by
surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable
input, not the electrical input.
c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a
surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an
hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs
between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors.
They also checked and verified the grounds three houses in both
directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and
load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found
(and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly
related? - unknown. Comcast replaced our modem and all our TV boxes
the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new \'smart\'
televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the
following day.

All-in, the \"spend\" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than
our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it
was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

Stuff happens.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

As I understand, surge protectors are useless

**There. I fixed it for you.

Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet.

 

[Peter W.]

> Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet.

And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Peter W.]

> Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet.

And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:39:44 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:

Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet.
And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

I recently bid on three cases of Bussman BK1/MOV05131AIA Metal Oxide Varistors on Ebay, I ended up with over 1000 of them
Another bid was for some NTC Thermistors rated for up to 2A. I have over 100.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:39:44 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:

Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet.
And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

I recently bid on three cases of Bussman BK1/MOV05131AIA Metal Oxide Varistors on Ebay, I ended up with over 1000 of them
Another bid was for some NTC Thermistors rated for up to 2A. I have over 100.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:

On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it. I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can\'t even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn\'t replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:

On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it. I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can\'t even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn\'t replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 2/10/2021 5:20 pm, Phil Allison wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
=================

I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt.
It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground.
That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

Lightning happens.

**Wow! 56k. So fast.


** I well remember when 56K modems were the \" ant\'s pants\".
Slow jpegs, no video but OK for email & browsing text sites.

Quite astonishing they did that speed using nothing but one POTS voice circuit down miles of twisted pair.

**Indeed. I though so, when I bought my first modem. 9600 baud. Very
neat. I am pretty certain my next modem came from Fry\'s in LA and was a
28.8k. When my mate Doug connected to ADSL and got 24Mb/s I was
gob-smacked. Not too shabby for twisted pair. Since I am 3km from my
local exchange, the best I could manage was around 12Mb/s.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 2/10/2021 5:20 pm, Phil Allison wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
=================

I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt.
It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground.
That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

Lightning happens.

**Wow! 56k. So fast.


** I well remember when 56K modems were the \" ant\'s pants\".
Slow jpegs, no video but OK for email & browsing text sites.

Quite astonishing they did that speed using nothing but one POTS voice circuit down miles of twisted pair.

**Indeed. I though so, when I bought my first modem. 9600 baud. Very
neat. I am pretty certain my next modem came from Fry\'s in LA and was a
28.8k. When my mate Doug connected to ADSL and got 24Mb/s I was
gob-smacked. Not too shabby for twisted pair. Since I am 3km from my
local exchange, the best I could manage was around 12Mb/s.

 

[Michael Trew]

On 10/2/2021 2:49 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it. I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can\'t even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn\'t replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.

Our lines are even older, but they are overhead. It took the tech
forever to find a good pair, but I have no issues or noise on the line.
I also have a new drop into my house, and all new from the demarc inside.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:17:33 -0400, Michael Trew
<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it.

If you\'re on SSI or some form of public assistance, and haven\'t had
Comcast/Xfinity service for 9 months, this might be of interest:
<https://www.internetessentials.com>

I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
Last year, AT&T shut down all the \"legacy DSL\" accounts and
sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
sell me. The available options were Comcast, AT&T U-Verse, Comcast,
WISP wireless, licensed wireless (Etheric), satellite (Dish/Viasat,
HughesNet), or 4G cellular, in order of increasing cost. I would have
gone with Startlink except that I live in a thick forest that blocks
the signal from the satellites. Since then, I\'ve been changing
internet and phone service for my customers and I away from AT&T. My
POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
and/or cellular. I haven\'t heard of AT&T \"grandfathering\" legacy
ADSL. In my case, it wasn\'t an option. However, not to worry. AT&T
will improve after China takes over:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>

In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
(one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
attached to my POTS home phone line. I considered this acceptable
because I did most of my work in my former palatial office, where I
had 20Mbit/sec Comcast business class. However, I closed the office
Nov 2020 and now need more speed at home.

Interestingly, we had wildfires and power outages in the area since
the beginning of last summer. Comcast has backup batteries in their
pole mounted amplifiers which typically only ran for 2 hrs. AT&T had
their own power systems at the central offices, branch offices, and
some ADSL/PairGain/IDSN/T1/etc pedestals. Those would last much
longer. Since PG&E couldn\'t supply charger power to the Comcast
amplifiers, and since Comcast was providing lifeline telephone service
which required a proper backup, various government agencies threatened
to investigate. During the last two outages (allegedly caused by
squirrels) Comcast stayed up for 5 and 8 hours respectively.
Obviously, something was done to improved the situation, but nobody is
providing useful info from either Comcast or PG&E.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 10:09:58 PM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:

On 10/2/2021 2:49 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it. I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can\'t even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn\'t replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection.. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.
Our lines are even older, but they are overhead. It took the tech
forever to find a good pair, but I have no issues or noise on the line.
I also have a new drop into my house, and all new from the demarc inside.

Overhead lines fare better than first generation cables. There are areas in the ounty that have over 75% of the pairs failing, or open.

 

[Michael Trew]

On 10/2/2021 11:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:17:33 -0400, Michael Trew
michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it.

If you\'re on SSI or some form of public assistance, and haven\'t had
Comcast/Xfinity service for 9 months, this might be of interest:
https://www.internetessentials.com

No public assistance, but thank you. I am not working many hours now,
but even if I easily had the money, I\'m cheap.. heh

I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
Last year, AT&T shut down all the \"legacy DSL\" accounts and
sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
sell me.

What region is this? I\'ve heard several people tell me, especially out
west, that AT&T simply shut down the old ADSL out there, and resellers
and all couldn\'t sell it. I live in Ohio, former Ameritech region.

POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
and/or cellular. I haven\'t heard of AT&T \"grandfathering\" legacy
ADSL. In my case, it wasn\'t an option.

I like my POTS line.. if it ever become unreliable, or the price keeps
creeping up to an unreasonable level, I\'ll probably drop it.

See my post linked here when I got the bill notice; several other people
noticed this as a company-wide decision. I\'m still using it at the
moment.. as I was told, I can\'t move, change speed, etc.. but it still
works as of now.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32848850-DSL-is-officially-grandfathered-Get-orders-in-BEFORE-October

In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
(one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
attached to my POTS home phone line.

\"Real speed\" is about 2 down on any given test. It seems to work OK on
one device, streaming, browsing on one or two others. I doubt it could
do much more.

 

[Michael Trew]

On 10/2/2021 11:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:17:33 -0400, Michael Trew
michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don\'t care to pay
for it.

If you\'re on SSI or some form of public assistance, and haven\'t had
Comcast/Xfinity service for 9 months, this might be of interest:
https://www.internetessentials.com

No public assistance, but thank you. I am not working many hours now,
but even if I easily had the money, I\'m cheap.. heh

I haven\'t canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
if I shut it down, I can\'t ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don\'t need any
faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
Last year, AT&T shut down all the \"legacy DSL\" accounts and
sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
sell me.

What region is this? I\'ve heard several people tell me, especially out
west, that AT&T simply shut down the old ADSL out there, and resellers
and all couldn\'t sell it. I live in Ohio, former Ameritech region.

POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
and/or cellular. I haven\'t heard of AT&T \"grandfathering\" legacy
ADSL. In my case, it wasn\'t an option.

I like my POTS line.. if it ever become unreliable, or the price keeps
creeping up to an unreasonable level, I\'ll probably drop it.

See my post linked here when I got the bill notice; several other people
noticed this as a company-wide decision. I\'m still using it at the
moment.. as I was told, I can\'t move, change speed, etc.. but it still
works as of now.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32848850-DSL-is-officially-grandfathered-Get-orders-in-BEFORE-October

In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
(one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
attached to my POTS home phone line.

\"Real speed\" is about 2 down on any given test. It seems to work OK on
one device, streaming, browsing on one or two others. I doubt it could
do much more.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 00:01:18 -0400, Michael Trew
<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
Last year, AT&T shut down all the \"legacy DSL\" accounts and
sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
sell me.

What region is this? I\'ve heard several people tell me, especially out
west, that AT&T simply shut down the old ADSL out there, and resellers
and all couldn\'t sell it. I live in Ohio, former Ameritech region.

USA, left coast, California, Santa Cruz county. I have not bothered
to investigate the extent of the \"legacy DSL\" shutdown. I think it\'s
national. Note the headline here:
<https://www.att.com/internet/dsl/>
\"AT&T no longer offers DSL service\"
Clicking further down the page, it offers me up to 5 Mbit/sec service
for $45/month plus taxes, equipment fees, hidden charges, and
installation if needed. Why am I not thrilled?

POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
and/or cellular. I haven\'t heard of AT&T \"grandfathering\" legacy
ADSL. In my case, it wasn\'t an option.

I like my POTS line.. if it ever become unreliable, or the price keeps
creeping up to an unreasonable level, I\'ll probably drop it.

I also like POTS phone lines, mostly because they\'re far more reliable
than anything that goes via the internet or cellular data. However,
my latest AT&T POTS bill was $41.25 for flat rate, no long distance. I
originate or receive perhaps 50 fairly short, non-telemarketting,
phone calls per month making my cost about $0.80 per valid call.
Meanwhile, I\'m also paying $75/year for my former office VoIP phone
from:
<https://www.future-nine.com/plans.html> (Bare Essentials plan)
with 2000 incoming minutes and 250 outgoing minutes included. That\'s
a net savings of about $420/year. I can also switch to all cellular
(cutting the cord) for which I alread pay $28/month.

See my post linked here when I got the bill notice; several other people
noticed this as a company-wide decision. I\'m still using it at the
moment.. as I was told, I can\'t move, change speed, etc.. but it still
works as of now.

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32848850-DSL-is-officially-grandfathered-Get-orders-in-BEFORE-October

Yep. That\'s not what I received from my ISP. AT&T will continue to
service legacy accounts for their AT&T customers, but not for the
CLEC\'s, who have equipment located in their central offices and are
leasing AT&T copper phone lines.

In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
(one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
attached to my POTS home phone line.

\"Real speed\" is about 2 down on any given test. It seems to work OK on
one device, streaming, browsing on one or two others. I doubt it could
do much more.

Higher speeds (bandwidth) to have their advantages. For me, it was
the ability to do more than one thing online at a time. I can now
download a bloated Microsoft update, stream a movie (in 720p because I
have a small TV and 1080p would be a waste of bandwidth), check my
email, talk on VoIP or Zoom, etc all at the same time. 56Mbits/sec
download, 6Mbits/sec upload. I\'ve tried to overload the bandwidth and
found it somewhat difficult because most (not all) of the streaming
and video programs have some form of adaptive bandwidth management.
Also, I use my routers QoS (quality of service also known as bandwidth
management) settings to all the real-time stuff (mostly VoIP) to have
priority. If you only do one thing at a time online, 2Mbits/sec might
be adequate. 1.5Mbits/sec was adequate for me for about 20 years.
However, if you\'re into multitasking your life, more bandwidth is a
necessity.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558