Lead Based Solder Alternatives

[Pooh Bear]

Mark Zenier wrote:

In article <418C83DE.822D60D1@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Utterly hilarious. Although lead acid batteries rarely find themselves in
landfill - they get recycled. Consumer electronics ends up in landfill -
that's the reason for this.

Not landfills, incinerators.

Landfill over here mainly. So the lead can leach out into the soil. UK's not
keen on incinerators. Good way of getting the lead into the air though.


Graham ;-)

 

[nospam]

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Mark Zenier wrote:

In article <418C83DE.822D60D1@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Utterly hilarious. Although lead acid batteries rarely find themselves in
landfill - they get recycled. Consumer electronics ends up in landfill -
that's the reason for this.

Not landfills, incinerators.

Landfill over here mainly. So the lead can leach out into the soil. UK's not
keen on incinerators. Good way of getting the lead into the air though.

Yeah we all know how soluble lead is, we only used it to make water pipes
for hundreds of years.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 18:16:06 +0000, the renowned Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:15:28 GMT, the renowned "H Brown"
harryhbrown@earthlink.net> wrote:

The November 2004 issue of Printed Circuit Design and Manufactire has an
editorial that says theat the European Union is banning the importation of
electronic products containing lead, mercury, cadmium, etc. starting 1 July
2006.

Does anyone have any leads on what alternates there are available to use
instead of lead based solder? Sounds like a real problem to me. With the
quantity of posts on this forum, and my not knowing about the problem before
I may have missed past discussions on this subject.

Any directions 0n where to find more about this subject would be
appreciated.

Harry

What are people specifying in terms of bare boards? Sometimes we have
to order enough for over 12 months, so the deadline is fast
approaching.

Asian board stuffers often don't bother with any finish. Just put an anti-oxidant
laquer on the bare copper.

Yeah, I know, and it lasts fairly well if you keep the boards dry and
in plastic bags. Cardboard is bery bad for them.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 18:27:04 +0000, nospam wrote:

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



Mark Zenier wrote:

In article <418C83DE.822D60D1@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Utterly hilarious. Although lead acid batteries rarely find themselves in
landfill - they get recycled. Consumer electronics ends up in landfill -
that's the reason for this.

Not landfills, incinerators.

Landfill over here mainly. So the lead can leach out into the soil. UK's not
keen on incinerators. Good way of getting the lead into the air though.

Yeah we all know how soluble lead is, we only used it to make water pipes
for hundreds of years.

Yeah, until the whole empire died of dementia.

Hey, I wonder.....

Cheers!
Rich

 

[budgie]

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:47:06 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith)
wrote:

(snip)

There is a technology where a laser makes a velcro like surface on metal.
We could have boards where the parts are just pressed into place.

Now THAT could be the ultimate in recycling. Pull all the active devices off a
defunct board ;-)

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Robert Baer wrote:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:

[snip]

What about various alloys of gold? Back in my days in the aerospace biz,
one vendor proposed using a gold alloy solder. Although it wasn't our
job to review this part of their design, we did toy with the idea of
asking them to ship us a couple of pounds of the proposed solder, 'for
certification purposes'. ;-)


Do you have any info (element ratios and melting points)?

Unfortunately, no. I was indirectly involved with this project. The
vendor proposed a gold alloy solder for some connections within a 90 kVA
400 Hz generator. I'd guess that the requirements were for a relatively
high temperature environment and to withstand aviation hydraulic fluids.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.

 

[Pooh Bear]

nospam wrote:

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Mark Zenier wrote:

In article <418C83DE.822D60D1@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Utterly hilarious. Although lead acid batteries rarely find themselves in
landfill - they get recycled. Consumer electronics ends up in landfill -
that's the reason for this.

Not landfills, incinerators.

Landfill over here mainly. So the lead can leach out into the soil. UK's not
keen on incinerators. Good way of getting the lead into the air though.

Yeah we all know how soluble lead is, we only used it to make water pipes
for hundreds of years.

Perfectly safe in hard water areas on account of the fact that the pipe scales
over thus preventing the lead going into solution.

It has been considered a problem in certain UK cities like Glasgow for example
where the water isn't hard and lead has been used in the past extensively. It's
recommended to let the tap run for a while before using the water for drinking.


Graham

 

[Jeff]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:hnqpo05gcnekhi7kjbih35om1tvcl52vdc@4ax.com...

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:15:28 GMT, the renowned "H Brown"
harryhbrown@earthlink.net> wrote:

The November 2004 issue of Printed Circuit Design and Manufactire has an
editorial that says theat the European Union is banning the importation
of
electronic products containing lead, mercury, cadmium, etc. starting 1
July
2006.

Does anyone have any leads on what alternates there are available to use
instead of lead based solder? Sounds like a real problem to me. With the
quantity of posts on this forum, and my not knowing about the problem
before
I may have missed past discussions on this subject.

Any directions 0n where to find more about this subject would be
appreciated.

Harry

What are people specifying in terms of bare boards? Sometimes we have
to order enough for over 12 months, so the deadline is fast
approaching.

Gold immersion is one recommendation (costs about 20% more IIRC). HASL (Hot
Air Solder Level) with lead free solder is a less common alternative (likely
have to have a HASL machine dedicated to lead free). Bare/coated copper does
not seem to be too common.

If you mean bare, unetched boards, then FR4 holds up well.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com

 

[budgie]

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 01:56:27 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith)
wrote:

In article <418d4dc6$0$33620$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:46:54 +0000, Ken Smith wrote:

In article <418C8491.E0CAD329@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
budgie wrote:
[...]
The increased temperature for lead-free soldering is the one that
bothers me. For
decades, those semi makers have been telling us to keep exposure to heat to a
minimum.

The trend seems to be silver alloys with lower and lower melting points.
I think in a few years a silver, unobtainium, upsidaisium, alloy will be
found with a melting point that match Sn/Pb solder nicely.

Until then, there will be a reliability hit.

I wonder what a little gallium would do to the alloy.

You can get metals that'll melt down to -40C or so, even if you exclude
mercury.

Indium/Gallium eutectic melts at around 40C.

I think it is more a matter of getting four requirements at the same time:

(1) It must melt at a reasonable temperature.

(2) If must wet copper well so it flows.

(3) It must not be brittle.

(4) Mere mortals have to be able to afford it.

I think they can do them one at a time and perhaps 2 at a time. Getting
all four requirements in the same alloy seems to be the issue. I figure
that there is enough money in it that if there is one it will be found.

I think that's the thinking of the euro/japanese regulators - if you put a
timeline/deadline on it, money WILL be thrown at it and a solution will emerge.
My real fear is that hard deadlines usually result in 1-3 only.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 01:17:47 +0000, Mike Page
<mike@SCRUBeclectic-CAPSweb.BLAMEco.SWENuk> wrote:

H Brown wrote:

The November 2004 issue of Printed Circuit Design and Manufactire has an
editorial that says theat the European Union is banning the importation of
electronic products containing lead, mercury, cadmium, etc. starting 1 July
2006.

A nuisance, isn't it? Lead in batteries is exempt, so this scheme will
have very little obvious benefit.

In the US, lead-based batteries must be recycled, and there is a fee
charged when you buy a new battery to pay for the recycling costs.

The same sort of thing for tires.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Leon Heller]

"H Brown" <harryhbrown@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:AGNid.4362$Gm6.2200@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

The November 2004 issue of Printed Circuit Design and Manufactire has an
editorial that says theat the European Union is banning the importation of
electronic products containing lead, mercury, cadmium, etc. starting 1
July
2006.

Does anyone have any leads on what alternates there are available to use
instead of lead based solder? Sounds like a real problem to me. With the
quantity of posts on this forum, and my not knowing about the problem
before
I may have missed past discussions on this subject.

Any directions 0n where to find more about this subject would be
appreciated.

Lead-free solder is available from plenty of sources. I've tried some
samples and it works OK. The MP is higher than for ordinary lead/tin solder
but my Metcal equipment copes OK with it. The joints look nicer - much
shinier.

Leon

 

[Robert Baer]

H Brown wrote:

The November 2004 issue of Printed Circuit Design and Manufactire has an
editorial that says theat the European Union is banning the importation of
electronic products containing lead, mercury, cadmium, etc. starting 1 July
2006.

Does anyone have any leads on what alternates there are available to use
instead of lead based solder? Sounds like a real problem to me. With the
quantity of posts on this forum, and my not knowing about the problem before
I may have missed past discussions on this subject.

Any directions 0n where to find more about this subject would be
appreciated.

Harry

Here are the solders that i know about:
1) Sn63, Pb37 MP is 183C (361F) with a max recommended use to 149C
(300F).
2) Sn95.8, Ag3.5, Cu0.7 MP is 217C (423F)
3) Sn96.5, Ag3.5 MP is 221C (430F)
4) Sn65, Sb5 MP is 232C (450F)
I have only personally worked with #1 and #4 and one needs a rather
hot iron to not get cold solder joints with #4.
That makes it a bitch, as that heat tends to make problems with the
ICs one is soldering...

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <418d4dc6$0$33620$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:46:54 +0000, Ken Smith wrote:

In article <418C8491.E0CAD329@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
budgie wrote:
[...]
The increased temperature for lead-free soldering is the one that
bothers me. For
decades, those semi makers have been telling us to keep exposure to heat to a
minimum.

The trend seems to be silver alloys with lower and lower melting points.
I think in a few years a silver, unobtainium, upsidaisium, alloy will be
found with a melting point that match Sn/Pb solder nicely.

Until then, there will be a reliability hit.

I wonder what a little gallium would do to the alloy.

You can get metals that'll melt down to -40C or so, even if you exclude
mercury.

Indium/Gallium eutectic melts at around 40C.

I think it is more a matter of getting four requirements at the same time:

(1) It must melt at a reasonable temperature.

(2) If must wet copper well so it flows.

(3) It must not be brittle.

(4) Mere mortals have to be able to afford it.

I think they can do them one at a time and perhaps 2 at a time. Getting
all four requirements in the same alloy seems to be the issue. I figure
that there is enough money in it that if there is one it will be found.


--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Pooh Bear]

budgie wrote:

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 01:56:27 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith)
wrote:

In article <418d4dc6$0$33620$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:46:54 +0000, Ken Smith wrote:

In article <418C8491.E0CAD329@hotmail.com>,
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
budgie wrote:
[...]
The increased temperature for lead-free soldering is the one that
bothers me. For
decades, those semi makers have been telling us to keep exposure to heat to a
minimum.

The trend seems to be silver alloys with lower and lower melting points.
I think in a few years a silver, unobtainium, upsidaisium, alloy will be
found with a melting point that match Sn/Pb solder nicely.

Until then, there will be a reliability hit.

I wonder what a little gallium would do to the alloy.

You can get metals that'll melt down to -40C or so, even if you exclude
mercury.

Indium/Gallium eutectic melts at around 40C.

I think it is more a matter of getting four requirements at the same time:

(1) It must melt at a reasonable temperature.

(2) If must wet copper well so it flows.

(3) It must not be brittle.

(4) Mere mortals have to be able to afford it.

I think they can do them one at a time and perhaps 2 at a time. Getting
all four requirements in the same alloy seems to be the issue. I figure
that there is enough money in it that if there is one it will be found.

I think that's the thinking of the euro/japanese regulators - if you put a
timeline/deadline on it, money WILL be thrown at it and a solution will emerge.
My real fear is that hard deadlines usually result in 1-3 only.

Yes indeed !

A *hilarious* sub section of the RoHS directive suggests that measures required should
not have an adverse financial effect !

Very funny.

Never mind the reliability effect due to increased temp processes !


Graham