Lead Acid battery models

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:15:32 +0000, Clarence wrote:

"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.18.00.19.08.847044@bar.net...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:57:14 +0000, Clarence wrote:

snip

Is English your first language? I noticed that you used "your" where you
should have used "you're" four or five times in the above post.

If English is NOT your first language, then don't worry about it. It isn't
super important. But if English IS your first language, then please use
the apostrophe where appropriate.

It makes it much easier to read your posts if you use the correct word.

If your an English teacher, thank you.
If not -- Stuff it!

Use determines correctness. I use it, it is correct!

End of discussion.

Promises, promises.

 

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:37:39 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:


On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:15:36 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:58:05 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
...
I know they know the charge
profile and all that stuff. I heard about a dummy load that's supposed
to simulate a battery under charge and it was basically a big ol' power
resistor of about a half ohm, and a bank of BMF caps.


That's not even remotely close to reality.

Apparently, it's close enough to smoke test a ferroresonant power
supply.


"smoke test" ... I like that.

Plus serveral other bits.

True.

Or, you could measure one.


Aye, I've been working on that for about 6 months!

Yeah, that's fun - baby-sitting your test setup far into the night, taking
readings every 15 minutes....


You've been there and done it!

I feel like I haven't slept for 12 months.

Catnaps can be surprisingly helpful. Sit back in the chair, get

comfortable, and close your eyes for a few minuts. When you drift off,
you'll generally wake up while falling from the chair. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Terry Given]

Clarence wrote:

"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.18.00.19.08.847044@bar.net...

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:57:14 +0000, Clarence wrote:


snip

Is English your first language? I noticed that you used "your" where you
should have used "you're" four or five times in the above post.

If English is NOT your first language, then don't worry about it. It isn't
super important. But if English IS your first language, then please use
the apostrophe where appropriate.

It makes it much easier to read your posts if you use the correct word.


If your an English teacher, thank you.
If not -- Stuff it!

Use determines correctness. I use it, it is correct!

End of discussion.

solipsist

Terry

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:10:41 +0000, Mac wrote:

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:15:32 +0000, Clarence wrote:


"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.18.00.19.08.847044@bar.net...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:57:14 +0000, Clarence wrote:

snip

Is English your first language? I noticed that you used "your" where you
should have used "you're" four or five times in the above post.

If English is NOT your first language, then don't worry about it. It isn't
super important. But if English IS your first language, then please use
the apostrophe where appropriate.

It makes it much easier to read your posts if you use the correct word.

If your an English teacher, thank you.
If not -- Stuff it!


That's not a polite expression. ;-)

Use determines correctness. I use it, it is correct!


That's not my understanding of how grammar works.

End of discussion.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. It's just that "your" and "you're"
are totally different. When I see "your," I think you mean "your," but as
I read on, I realize it doesn't make sense, and I have to stop, and think,
and back up and re-read. It doesn't take long, but it wouldn't take you
long to put in the apostrophe, either.

And if you assume that perhaps dozens of people may read your post, it
seems to me that it is a bit rude to do something which inconveniences
those dozens of people if it would only take you a fraction of a second to
remedy the situation.

He's a troll. Inconvenience is his lifeblood.

Just ignore him.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:


ChrisGibboGibson wrote:


Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a

different

model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?



Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal self
drain etc.

A spice model is an electrical model and not a physical model
as far as I understood.
A colleague of mine took the pain to do measurements on
batteries. He just measured lead and nicads, but the cycles
and temperature dependencies of charge, resistence and so on.
After that he programmed a controller andf is still selling
this to various manufacturers who need a better understanding
of their batteries.
Meaning this sort of knowledge is apparently sellable and
hardly available on a newsgroups for free,

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <20041018053739.08240.00002142@mb-m18.aol.com>,
ChrisGibboGibson <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:
[...]
Yeah, that's fun - baby-sitting your test setup far into the night, taking
readings every 15 minutes....


You've been there and done it!

I feel like I haven't slept for 12 months.

I own a HP7155 and a HP7130 strip chart recorder.

Somewhere in the not yet unpacked boxes in the garage is the time to
event-mark code generator.

While I slept, the recorder measured the voltage. BTW: The curve had an
unexpected knee near the end.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:27:53 GMT, "Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote:

"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.20.02.11.45.481738@bar.net...
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:22:54 +0000, Clarence wrote:

Your aware you were not ask, aren't you?

Many people are rude out of ignorance, and are glad to be informed so they
can alter their behavior.

You are now aware.

---
You, on the other hand, think you know but don't know that you don't
know.
---

Others are wilfully rude.

Like those who jump in where they are not needed.

---
If you knew that you knew, then you'd have known that you weren't
needed and you wouldn't have jumped in unless you wanted to be
willfully rude. But, since you didn't know that you didn't know, you
jumped in involuntarily, much like a pig to the trough.
---

Now that I know which category you belong in, there is no point in my
correcting your grammar.

Never was an excuse for your intruding.

---
So, your statement that "we're all equal here" doesn't apply to him if
he decides to intrude, but it does to you? 1984...

--
John Fields

 

[Clarence]

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:84vcn098mqogo41p9ihvtphjfb1ev32olq@4ax.com...

Intruded where it was unnecessary, and rude. As you would expect.

Please excuse his behavior, he has no control over his posts.

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

"Clarence" wrote:

Not much.

Clarence.....

You probably sit there, in the back bedroom of your granny's council flat, in
your stinking, piss stained, yellow, string underpants, with a cig hanging out
the side of your gob, and your gut hanging over the top or your (note spelling)
pants, believing that you're (note spelling) amusing and clever.

You're not.

You do this all day long because you are lonely and cannot function in society.

Help is available if you look for it.

You're a fuckin' knob-head.

Gibbo

 

[Clarence]

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041020190020.28581.00001945@mb-m20.aol.com...
<Snip>

You probably sit there, in the back bedroom of your granny's council flat, in
your stinking "ChrisGibboGibson", stained, yellow, string underpants, with a
cig > hanging out
the side of your gob, (??WTH??) and your gut hanging over the top or your
pants, believing that your (spelling corrected!) amusing and clever.

You're not.
You do this all day long because you are lonely and cannot function in
society.
Help is available if you look for it.
You're a "ChrisGibboGibson" "ChrisGibboGibson".

<Profanity properly labeled>

Amazing! With nothing to say, and a foul mouth, you actually got out a few
lines.

FYI: I am at work, just finished teaching a class (We teach Electronics here,
among other tasks.) and checking my investments. About three times a day I
check the NG and would prefer to help people with practical problems, then
along comes a TROLL and or a Megalomaniac to mess up the NG.

Despite what you have said I can charitably write it off to miss-information.

Otherwise, I'll just Kill file you since you seem to be a ant!

I do not drink, smoke, curse, or chew. And do not associate with those who do!

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:21:35 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:05:04 -0500, John Fields wrote:

---
You, on the other hand, think you know but don't know that you don't
know.
---

Ah, but the path to knowing is through the not-knowing, grasshopper.

---
I know...

Aloha!

--
John Fields

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:00:20 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

"Clarence" wrote:

Not much.

Clarence.....

You probably sit there, in the back bedroom of your granny's council flat, in
your stinking, piss stained, yellow, string underpants, with a cig hanging out
the side of your gob, and your gut hanging over the top or your (note spelling)
pants, believing that you're (note spelling) amusing and clever.

You're not.

You do this all day long because you are lonely and cannot function in society.

Help is available if you look for it.

You're a fuckin' knob-head.

Go easy on him. He can't Hell Pit.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:05:04 -0500, John Fields wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:27:53 GMT, "Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote:


"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.20.02.11.45.481738@bar.net...
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:22:54 +0000, Clarence wrote:

Your aware you were not ask, aren't you?

Many people are rude out of ignorance, and are glad to be informed so they
can alter their behavior.

You are now aware.

---
You, on the other hand, think you know but don't know that you don't
know.
---

Ah, but the path to knowing is through the not-knowing, grasshopper.

Shalom!
Rich

 

[Mac]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:15:32 +0000, Clarence wrote:

"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.18.00.19.08.847044@bar.net...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:57:14 +0000, Clarence wrote:

snip

Is English your first language? I noticed that you used "your" where you
should have used "you're" four or five times in the above post.

If English is NOT your first language, then don't worry about it. It isn't
super important. But if English IS your first language, then please use
the apostrophe where appropriate.

It makes it much easier to read your posts if you use the correct word.

If your an English teacher, thank you.
If not -- Stuff it!

That's not a polite expression. ;-)

Use determines correctness. I use it, it is correct!

That's not my understanding of how grammar works.

End of discussion.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. It's just that "your" and "you're"
are totally different. When I see "your," I think you mean "your," but as
I read on, I realize it doesn't make sense, and I have to stop, and think,
and back up and re-read. It doesn't take long, but it wouldn't take you
long to put in the apostrophe, either.

And if you assume that perhaps dozens of people may read your post, it
seems to me that it is a bit rude to do something which inconveniences
those dozens of people if it would only take you a fraction of a second to
remedy the situation.

--Mac

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:58:05 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:


ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a
different
model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?


Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal self
drain etc.

Call a battery manufacturer - they're all different, and the mfr. is

the only one who can tell you what the actual model should be. And
sealed lead-acid are enough different from wet lead-acid that it's
a nontrivial design consideration. ;-) I know they know the charge
profile and all that stuff. I heard about a dummy load that's supposed
to simulate a battery under charge and it was basically a big ol' power
resistor of about a half ohm, and a bank of BMF caps. That's under
charge, of course. For discharge, a voltage source with the equivalent
internal resistance, and the same cap bank, I'd think.

Or, you could measure one.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:


ChrisGibboGibson wrote:


Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a

different

model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?



Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal
R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal
self
drain etc.

A spice model is an electrical model and not a physical model
as far as I understood.
A colleague of mine took the pain to do measurements on
batteries. He just measured lead and nicads, but the cycles
and temperature dependencies of charge, resistence and so on.
After that he programmed a controller andf is still selling
this to various manufacturers who need a better understanding
of their batteries.
Meaning this sort of knowledge is apparently sellable and
hardly available on a newsgroups for free,

That's an odd argument.

The knowledge to make a bomb (or just about anything else) is sellable but
that's freely available on newsgroups.

Gibbo

 

[Clarence]

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017170747.02596.00002165@mb-m13.aol.com...

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:


ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?
Either spice or schematic representations.
I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a
different
model for charge and discharge.
Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.
What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?
Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal
R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal
self
drain etc.

A spice model is an electrical model and not a physical model
as far as I understood.
A colleague of mine took the pain to do measurements on
batteries. He just measured lead and nicads, but the cycles
and temperature dependencies of charge, resistance and so on.
After that he programmed a controller and is still selling
this to various manufacturers who need a better understanding
of their batteries.
Meaning this sort of knowledge is apparently sellable and
hardly available on a newsgroups for free,


That's an odd argument.

The knowledge to make a bomb (or just about anything else) is sellable but
that's freely available on newsgroups.

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:34:52 GMT, "Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote:

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:

[snip]

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.


I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.

Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit free?

So many people here have a problem understanding COMMERCIAL value. A
valid charge-control battery model would be of significant value for
portable system analysis. And it's not a trivial undertaking, if I
could crack it, I'd have it FOR SALE in a blink ;-)

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

I can handle his language, but the village-idiot positions he took
finally got to me, and I kill-filed him until after the election and
then I'll see if he tames down. He CAN be technically brilliant when
he's not ranting.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On 17 Oct 2004 21:54:40 GMT, chrisgibbogibson@aol.com
(ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

A valid charge-control battery model would be of........


What exactly do you mean by "charge-control battery model" ?

Gibbo

In a battery everything is a function of the state-of-charge,
including the effective resistance and voltage. And everything varies
depending on whether you are in charge or discharge conditions... and
the time spent in each mode.

But it wouldn't surprise me to find that such a model already exists.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Ray Anderson]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On 17 Oct 2004 21:54:40 GMT, chrisgibbogibson@aol.com
(ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]


A valid charge-control battery model would be of........


What exactly do you mean by "charge-control battery model" ?

Gibbo


In a battery everything is a function of the state-of-charge,
including the effective resistance and voltage. And everything varies
depending on whether you are in charge or discharge conditions... and
the time spent in each mode.

But it wouldn't surprise me to find that such a model already exists.

...Jim Thompson

Check out the following document:
http://www.scarpaz.com/papers/Low%20Power/00953497.pdf
It contains a VHDL model for a discrete time charge-control battery model.

-Ray Anderson