Lead Acid battery models

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a different
model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

Gibbo

Rene Tschaggelar · Oct 17, 2004

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a different
model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a
different
model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?

Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal self
drain etc.

Gibbo

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

"Clarence" wrote:

[snip]

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.

Gibbo

Clarence · Oct 17, 2004

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...

"Clarence" wrote:

[snip]

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.

Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit free?

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

"Clarence" wrote:

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:

[snip]

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.

Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

No. You're a dickhead who doesn't stop to think.

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit free?

If you need a wheel do you reinvent it?

I suspect you won't even understand what I'm getting at there but I'm not going
to waste my time explaining it.

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

That maybe so. But I suspect you killfiled him for somwhat different reasons.
Perhaps because he spotted what an idiot you are.

Gibbo

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

A valid charge-control battery model would be of........

What exactly do you mean by "charge-control battery model" ?

Gibbo

Clarence · Oct 17, 2004

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017174132.02596.00002172@mb-m13.aol.com...

"Clarence" wrote:
"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:
[snip]
Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.
Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

No. You're a dickhead who doesn't stop to think.

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
I think your very impolite!

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit
free?

If you need a wheel do you reinvent it?

So you are as lazy as I suspected? Answering a question with a question is not
acceptable for getting respect.

I suspect you won't even understand what I'm getting at there but I'm not
going
to waste my time explaining it.

Oh, I understand, your lazy!

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

That maybe so. But I suspect you killfiled him for somwhat different reasons.
Perhaps because he spotted what an idiot you are.

Actually, I was concise in my reason. Your just looking for a reason to use
your entire vocabulary of four letter words, I suspect your another potty
mouth.

Clarence · Oct 17, 2004

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017174132.02596.00002172@mb-m13.aol.com...

"Clarence" wrote:
"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:
[snip]
Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.
Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

No. You're a dickhead who doesn't stop to think.

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
I think your very impolite!

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit
free?

If you need a wheel do you reinvent it?

So you are as lazy as I suspected? Answering a question with a question is not
acceptable for getting respect.

I suspect you won't even understand what I'm getting at there but I'm not
going
to waste my time explaining it.

Oh, I understand, your lazy!

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

That maybe so. But I suspect you killfiled him for somwhat different reasons.
Perhaps because he spotted what an idiot you are.

Actually, I was concise in my reason. Your just looking for a reason to use
your entire vocabulary of four letter words, I suspect your another potty
mouth.

Read Jim Thompson's response before you say more.
If you feel like insulting him, don't!

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

"Clarence" wrote:

(and this is the last response you will get from me - you're an idiot)

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017174132.02596.00002172@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:
"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:
[snip]
Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.
Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

No. You're a dickhead who doesn't stop to think.

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Is that supposed to somehow bother me?

I think your very impolite!

Again, is that supposed to......

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit
free?

If you need a wheel do you reinvent it?

So you are as lazy as I suspected? Answering a question with a question is
not
acceptable for getting respect.

Pathetic.

And I quote from above....

"If you need a wheel do you reinvent it?"

"So you are as lazy as I suspected?"

You then go on to say...

"Answering a question with a question is not acceptable for getting respect."

You haven't quite got the hang of this have you.

I suspect you won't even understand what I'm getting at there but I'm not
going
to waste my time explaining it.

Oh, I understand, your lazy!

It's "you're" not "your"

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

That maybe so. But I suspect you killfiled him for somwhat different
reasons.
Perhaps because he spotted what an idiot you are.

Actually, I was concise in my reason. Your just looking for a reason to use
your entire vocabulary of four letter words,

"you're"

Four letter words? So not only can you not differentiate between "you're" and
"your", you also cannot count.

I suspect your another potty
mouth.

Child.

Gibbo

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 17, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On 17 Oct 2004 21:54:40 GMT, chrisgibbogibson@aol.com
(ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

A valid charge-control battery model would be of........

What exactly do you mean by "charge-control battery model" ?

Gibbo

In a battery everything is a function of the state-of-charge,
including the effective resistance and voltage. And everything varies
depending on whether you are in charge or discharge conditions... and
the time spent in each mode.

But it wouldn't surprise me to find that such a model already exists.

Indeed, and I am close to completeing such a model however I wanted to see what
else other people had managed to come up with or indeed if there is a generally
accepted version already out there.

Gibbo

Clarence · Oct 17, 2004

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017180719.02596.00002175@mb-m13.aol.com...

Gave a childish response.

Rich Grise · Oct 17, 2004

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:34:52 +0000, Clarence wrote:

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:

[snip]

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.

Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit free?

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

How is it you manage, then, to continue to fight with somebody
who you claim you've killfiled?

Or are you simply a liar, as Fred impugns?

Thanks,
Rich

Rich Grise · Oct 17, 2004

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:15:36 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:58:05 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
....
I know they know the charge
profile and all that stuff. I heard about a dummy load that's supposed
to simulate a battery under charge and it was basically a big ol' power
resistor of about a half ohm, and a bank of BMF caps.

That's not even remotely close to reality.

Apparently, it's close enough to smoke test a ferroresonant power
supply.

Plus serveral other bits.

True.

Or, you could measure one.

Aye, I've been working on that for about 6 months!

Yeah, that's fun - baby-sitting your test setup far into the night, taking

readings every 15 minutes....

Good Luck!
Rich

Clarence · Oct 17, 2004

"Rich Grise" <rich@example.net> wrote in message
news

an.2004.10.17.23.04.34.664387@example.net...

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:34:52 +0000, Clarence wrote:

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017173053.02596.00002170@mb-m13.aol.com...
"Clarence" wrote:

[snip]

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

I'm beginning to see what FB meant about you.

Gibbo

Yeah, I 'am' honest and 'direct.'

You were expecting someone to do some considerable work for you benefit
free?

I killfiled Fred Blogs a long time ago.
His language was/is offensive!

How is it you manage, then, to continue to fight with somebody
who you claim you've killfiled?

Or are you simply a liar, as Fred impugns?

Thanks,
Rich

Only if someone has replied to him so that I see him.

Okay?

Robert Baer · Oct 18, 2004

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?

Either spice or schematic representations.

I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a
different
model for charge and discharge.

Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.

What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?

Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal self
drain etc.

Gibbo

Do not forget temperature dependence, sulphation, temperature gradient
in cell, thickness of working compounds, particle sizes of working
compounds (both important for impulse and long term "cranking" current
capability), specific gravity, etc.

Robert Baer · Oct 18, 2004

Clarence wrote:

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041017170747.02596.00002165@mb-m13.aol.com...
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:

ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
Does anyone have models for lead acid batteries?
Either spice or schematic representations.
I've found a few and come up with a few of my own but they are all a
different
model for charge and discharge.
Ideally I'd like one that works under both situations.
What exactly do you wish to simulate beside a voltage source
with series resistor ? A complete physical model ?
Yes. As much as possible. OC voltage dependant upon charge state, internal
R,
counter voltage (surface charge), inductance (yes there is some), internal
self
drain etc.

A spice model is an electrical model and not a physical model
as far as I understood.
A colleague of mine took the pain to do measurements on
batteries. He just measured lead and nicads, but the cycles
and temperature dependencies of charge, resistance and so on.
After that he programmed a controller and is still selling
this to various manufacturers who need a better understanding
of their batteries.
Meaning this sort of knowledge is apparently sellable and
hardly available on a newsgroups for free,

That's an odd argument.

The knowledge to make a bomb (or just about anything else) is sellable but
that's freely available on newsgroups.

Then write and test a model of the target battery and post it.

But the battery is already "shot" (someone hit the target), and it is
leaking (bleeding?) all over...

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 18, 2004

Rich Grise wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:15:36 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:58:05 +0000, ChrisGibboGibson wrote:
...
I know they know the charge
profile and all that stuff. I heard about a dummy load that's supposed
to simulate a battery under charge and it was basically a big ol' power
resistor of about a half ohm, and a bank of BMF caps.

That's not even remotely close to reality.

Apparently, it's close enough to smoke test a ferroresonant power
supply.

"smoke test" ... I like that.

Plus serveral other bits.

True.

Or, you could measure one.

Aye, I've been working on that for about 6 months!

Yeah, that's fun - baby-sitting your test setup far into the night, taking
readings every 15 minutes....

You've been there and done it!

I feel like I haven't slept for 12 months.

Gibbo

ChrisGibboGibson · Oct 18, 2004

Robert Baer wrote:

[snip]

Do not forget temperature dependence, sulphation, temperature gradient
in cell, thickness of working compounds, particle sizes of working
compounds (both important for impulse and long term "cranking" current
capability), specific gravity, etc.

Yes. What started off relatively simply has become a monster.

For instance sulphation has 2 parts. The long term effect dependent upon
history of use and abuse, and a short term effect dependent upon state of
charge.

Internal R has 5 separate parts.

Internal self drain has 3.

And all these vary wildly between different types of consruction. ie the basic
internal R increases (with decreasing SOC) quite dramatically in lead antimony
and lead calcium wet cells. But hardly at all in lead calcium gel cells.

The whole thing is extremely complicated.

I wanted to see what other people had come up with but it seems nothing has
turned up so far.

Gibbo

Jim Thompson · Oct 18, 2004

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:15:32 GMT, "Clarence" <no@No.com> wrote:

"Mac" <foo@bar.net> wrote in message
newsan.2004.10.18.00.19.08.847044@bar.net...
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:57:14 +0000, Clarence wrote:

snip

Is English your first language? I noticed that you used "your" where you
should have used "you're" four or five times in the above post.

If English is NOT your first language, then don't worry about it. It isn't
super important. But if English IS your first language, then please use
the apostrophe where appropriate.

It makes it much easier to read your posts if you use the correct word.

If your an English teacher, thank you.
If not -- Stuff it!

Use determines correctness. I use it, it is correct!

End of discussion.

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Lead Acid battery models

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