Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trick

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads

with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

"I am proud of being nicked 10 times, and even prouder of talking my
way out of twice that number of offences".
"Make that 12. 9 speeding offences, 2 seatbelts, and 1 unroadworthy
vehicle".

On rape:
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adult or a child".
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everyone all the time".

On Jimmy Savile:
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earlier. The fact that they didn't suggests either he did nothing at
all, or the children liked it".

"Journalists are not human".

"I don't give a shit about the law".
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scream when they're frightened? Perhaps they realise they're
inferior and are calling for the nearest man"?

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"I don't believe in UFOs".
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would just be "FO" as they hadn't invented flying yet".

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"I once took a dump behind some bushes and slid down a hill to wipe my
arse".

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"I am currently eating a sandwich made with bread that has been in my
fridge THREE WEEKS past the sell by date. It is not dry, it is not
mouldy, it is identical to the day I bought it".

"And there's nothing wrong with jumping red lights if you don't cause
an accident"

"I don't want to drive at the speed limit. It's absurdly slow and in
fact I find it more dangerous. It's so tedious I'm in danger of
falling asleep. "Whoever made up the limits must have a really slow
brain". "I think it's stupid to follow a law which is baseless. The
law on red lights is to stop you hitting someone. If there is
nobody there, you cannot hit them".

"If the guy behind me has his lights on too bright. I let him past
then tailgate him with my full beam on until he switches his off".

"I like driving fast and scaring people".

"People who don't know how to shave don't know how to behave."

On mental health:
"Being sectioned just means you are different from others, it doesn't
mean you are wrong".

"If I wanted you to stab me with a knife and kill me, you should not
get into trouble for it".
"I would kill my sister if I thought I'd get away with it".
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"I have an IQ of 140".
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transferred".
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of those stark naked. Oh and fuck in public".

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Sociopath.
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
"As I've told you before, that's quite normal. It's just not prim and
proper like you, you silly snob".

 

[Xeno]

On 23/6/19 9:24 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:41:15 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:


the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

I believe the reason Rod mentioned load as being seperate to the battery
is this thread is about my car, with a fault that draws current from the
battery, and it's also connected to a bench supply.  In this situation,
we refer to "load" as the faulty alarm system.  I originally asked how
an alternator could distinguish between the battery charging, and a load
such as your headlamps being on.

In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
makes it the load.

See above.

What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
power still connected.

Bullshit.  You're telling me that a bench supply with a battery on the
output and no 240V input will blow up if it doesn't shut down?  Wrong.

The battery is the load. And I'm referring to a charger and the leads to
the battery being disconnected, not the 240V input. The same as if you
open circuit the battery on a running, and charging, alternator. It can
be done but there is a high risk of a spike zapping something. The
battery acts to dampen spikes and it's removal from the circuit exposes
the regulator and any other electronic components to spikes.

Absolutely wrong.  The output end of the supply (which probably ends
with smoothing capacitors) is just kept at the normal output voltage by
the battery.

I used the term *charger* for a very good reason.

Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge

4A isnt a trickle charge.

That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.

How fucking big is that battery?!  When I charge a 60Ah lead acid at
13.8V, it drops to about 150mA when full.

When I was working on trucks, it wasn't unusual to see 4 x 12 Volt, 200
AH batteries wired series-parallel, so yes, 1 amp can be a trickle.

 From Wikipedia;
     For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
     in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
     end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
     to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
     charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
     the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
     lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
     hydrogen and oxygen gases

Trouble is you might want to do a bulk charge first, at 14.4V.

The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output.

All it can do is supply a certain voltage.  13.8V is safe.  If it uses
14.4V or higher, it has to know when to back off to 13.8.  It cannot do
that if there is an external current draw like headlamp, as it won't
know if they're switched on, or if the battery is drawing that current.

The regulator has a Zener diode to *limit* the voltage. An external
current draw will lower the voltage.

When the
regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint,

You can't tell a battery is full by voltage.  You can only tell by it
drawing less current.  The voltage is determined by the charger.

The voltage at the battery will be determined by the battery's *internal
resistance*. As that battery's internal resistance goes higher, as it
will do as it becomes charged, the voltage will go higher and current
will reduce.

it too will
drop the current to a trickle.

Actually it drops the voltage, to 13.8.  I used to have a solar battery
regulator which had very detailed instructions saying how it worked.  It
took the voltage of the solar cells and altered it up or down a bit to
suit the battery condition.

If you add a load, say by turning
headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
*two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.

But it can't tell the difference between current going to the lights and
to the battery.

It doesn't need to. All it needs to know is the aggregate current draw,
the total. That will be indicated by the voltage.


--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 23:36:35 +1000, Xeno, another brainless, troll-feeding,
senile Australian idiot, blathered:

Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
power still connected.

You've been warned, senile Ozzie tard!

 

[TMS320]

On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
voltage will be 14.4V.  After a while, something causes that voltage to
drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
longer be charged at a high rate.

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
between:

To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
for the charge.

Two resistors?

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320, yet another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered again:

Two resistors?

Two idiots (a troll and a troll-feeding senile asshole) having a
"conversation"? <BG>

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:36:35 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

On 23/6/19 9:24 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:41:15 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:


the *battery* is the *load*.

Not when the battery is fully charges and is being charged
with a bench supply that is delivering 4A to the battery.

Take the case of an alternator charging a battery at ~4 amps. The
battery is the load and it also provides, as part of that function, the
reference *voltage* that the alternator *must have* in order to control
the output.

I believe the reason Rod mentioned load as being seperate to the battery
is this thread is about my car, with a fault that draws current from the
battery, and it's also connected to a bench supply. In this situation,
we refer to "load" as the faulty alarm system. I originally asked how
an alternator could distinguish between the battery charging, and a load
such as your headlamps being on.

In the process of being charged it is using electric current. That
makes it the load.

See above.

What happens to the charger when you disconnect the power with the
battery connected? It should, if designed correctly, shut down since it
no longer sees a load. Otherwise it may destroy itself.

Ooops, got that arse about - disconnect the *battery* with the 240V
power still connected.

How would it destroy itself? Mine in fact just stay at 13.8V open circuit.

Bullshit. You're telling me that a bench supply with a battery on the
output and no 240V input will blow up if it doesn't shut down? Wrong.

The battery is the load. And I'm referring to a charger and the leads to
the battery being disconnected, not the 240V input. The same as if you
open circuit the battery on a running, and charging, alternator. It can
be done but there is a high risk of a spike zapping something. The
battery acts to dampen spikes and it's removal from the circuit exposes
the regulator and any other electronic components to spikes.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with having a charger with no battery on it.

Absolutely wrong. The output end of the supply (which probably ends
with smoothing capacitors) is just kept at the normal output voltage by
the battery.

I used the term *charger* for a very good reason.

They are one and the same, constant voltage current limited supplies

Even when it is fully charged it will still take a trickle charge

4A isnt a trickle charge.

That depends entirely on the amp hour rating of the battery.
Also, my bench charger will start off at 4 amps, its maximum capacity.
As the battery becomes charged, that current will drop down to *1 amp*
and, from that point, it will maintain a *trickle charge*.

How fucking big is that battery?! When I charge a 60Ah lead acid at
13.8V, it drops to about 150mA when full.

When I was working on trucks, it wasn't unusual to see 4 x 12 Volt, 200
AH batteries wired series-parallel, so yes, 1 amp can be a trickle.

Yes with 400Ah I can believe a 1A trickle.

From Wikipedia;
For lead-acid batteries under no load float charging (such as
in SLI batteries), trickle charging happens naturally at the
end-of-charge, when the lead-acid battery internal resistance
to the charging current increases enough to reduce additional
charging current to a trickle, hence the name. In such cases,
the trickle charging equals the energy expended by the
lead-acid battery splitting the water in the electrolyte into
hydrogen and oxygen gases

Trouble is you might want to do a bulk charge first, at 14.4V.

The car alternator regulator is no different. It sees the battery as a
load, determines the voltage reference and pumps up its output.

All it can do is supply a certain voltage. 13.8V is safe. If it uses
14.4V or higher, it has to know when to back off to 13.8. It cannot do
that if there is an external current draw like headlamp, as it won't
know if they're switched on, or if the battery is drawing that current.

The regulator has a Zener diode to *limit* the voltage. An external
current draw will lower the voltage.

Only if the alternator can't provide enough current.

When the
regulator sees the battery voltage at the peak setpoint,

You can't tell a battery is full by voltage. You can only tell by it
drawing less current. The voltage is determined by the charger.

The voltage at the battery will be determined by the battery's *internal
resistance*. As that battery's internal resistance goes higher, as it
will do as it becomes charged, the voltage will go higher and current
will reduce.

Bollocks. If I connect a 13.8V regulated supply (or charger, same thing) to a car battery sat on my bench, provided it's not needing a lot of current to charge it from empty, the charger will keep the terminals at precisely 13.8V. The only thing that changes as it becomes completely full is the current, so that's what the charger has to monitor.

it too will
drop the current to a trickle.

Actually it drops the voltage, to 13.8. I used to have a solar battery
regulator which had very detailed instructions saying how it worked. It
took the voltage of the solar cells and altered it up or down a bit to
suit the battery condition.

If you add a load, say by turning
headlights on, that is in *parallel* to the battery and it will drop the
system voltage down a tad. The regulator will see that and pump up the
output current appropriately. The current will apportion itself to the
*two* loads as appropriate to their individual internal resistances.

But it can't tell the difference between current going to the lights and
to the battery.

It doesn't need to. All it needs to know is the aggregate current draw,
the total. That will be indicated by the voltage.

If it's going to switch between fast and slow charge rates, it needs to know where that current is going. There is no way in hell it can tell from it's own internal sensing whether your battery is charging at 10 amps, or you have two 60W headlights switched on.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire <MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several places.

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

>> "Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

 

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop
in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
places.

Yeah, right.

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:30:16 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire <MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when
to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop
in charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a
random changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your stated
IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
places.

Yeah, right.

Yip. So what's yours? Bod admitted to 98.

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to
drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
longer be charged at a high rate.

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
between:

To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

Why didn't you wait until I'd finished?

1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
for the charge.

Two resistors?

Yes that would work, but not if it has no external sensors (as in external to the alternator).

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 14:53:00 +0100, trader_4 <trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 5:58:02 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no longer be charged at a high rate.


Go find a description of the voltage regulator/alternator and/or a
schematic for that car.

No idea where to find that.

Give us the references. If something is telling
the VR/alternator what voltage to target, then there must be an additional
wire or connection of some kind.

Agreed. And it could well have a sensor in the fusebox etc.

I have not seen that. The other possibilities
are that the VR itself lowers the target voltage, based on? Makes no sense
and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. I just googled for VR and looked
at half a dozen references, all just say the VR targets a specific voltage
period. The other possibility is that when you read the voltage later,
some other load is present that is lowering the system voltage that you see.

No, all I did was to start the car when the battery was almost full. The battery terminal voltage was immediately 14.4V. 20 minutes later it dropped to 13.8V. I added no loads. I think it actually dropped gradually if that means anything. I actually did that test because someone in one of these groups (although some troll has deleted half the groups, so I've added them back in AGAIN) told me that a car alternator changes voltage, this was in a post 6 months ago.

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish between:
1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it, like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps for the charge.

Rod claims that they have an extra sensing wire at the battery terminal
and use the voltage there versus the voltage at the other end of the
cable, to determine the current. I seriously doubt that, for obvious
reasons involving the very large gauge cable and current of interest.

It could only be mV, but easy enough to sense with modern electronics. Or how about an amp clamp?

And he can't produce a damn thing from anywhere that says that's what
they do, except his own worthless statements. If it's done that way
anywhere, it's not done on the cars I've seen here, that have just one
battery cable on the positive terminal.

Every UK car has 2 or 3 cables on the battery positive. America is infamous for being behind the times. We all know your cars can't go round corners, and get way less HP for the same engine size.

Why doesn't someone show us
an example, a description of one of these alleged fancy voltage regulators
that are computer controlled?

 

[TMS320]

On 23/06/2019 23:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
voltage will be 14.4V.  After a while, something causes that voltage to
drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
longer be charged at a high rate.
 
I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
between:

To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

Why didn't you wait until I'd finished?

You asked.

1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
for the charge.

Two resistors?

Yes that would work, but not if it has no external sensors (as in
external to the alternator).

An alternator is not simply two wire power output. The electronics on
the alternator would be to keep everything within acceptable parameters
but fine control comes from the ECU.

 

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:30:16 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing
a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but
what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a
running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your
stated IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
places.

Yeah, right.

Yip. So what's yours? Bod admitted to 98.

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.

You posted them, you freak.
I enjoy taking the piss out of wankers, and you are a wanker.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:33:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23/06/2019 23:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 17:27:09 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22/06/2019 22:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:03:08 +0100, TMS320 <dr6092@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

Mine does, if I start my car when the battery is say 80% full, the
voltage will be 14.4V. After a while, something causes that voltage to
drop to 13.8, because something knows the battery is full and should no
longer be charged at a high rate.

I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

Explain how an alternator or charger can use ohm's law to distinguish
between:

To determine current, measure the voltage across a series resistor, duh.

Why didn't you wait until I'd finished?

You asked.

No, I said "explain.... distinguish between:" and before I'd listed the two things, you interrupted.

1) A car battery which is full, with a load of 10 amps connected to it,
like two headlights.
2) A car battery with no load, which is not full yet and draws 10 amps
for the charge.

Two resistors?

Yes that would work, but not if it has no external sensors (as in
external to the alternator).

An alternator is not simply two wire power output. The electronics on
the alternator would be to keep everything within acceptable parameters
but fine control comes from the ECU.

So there are external sensors.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:36:25 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire <MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:30:16 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 11:32:57 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:55:51 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire
MrPounder@rationalthought.com> wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know
when to switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing
a drop in charging current if the battery is on its own, but
what if a random changing load is connected, as there is in a
running car?

Asks the unemployable wanker/troll with a 20 year old worthless
degree and a stated IQ of 138. Odd that a few years ago your
stated IQ was 142.

It has always been 135. And the degree is 22 years old.

My mistake.

"I have an IQ of 140".
"I am seldom wrong".
(Peter Hucker)

It may be possible it varies slightly, I've taken it in several
places.

Yeah, right.

Yip. So what's yours? Bod admitted to 98.

Not admitting to your IQ then?

"I have driven a Ford Sierra 1.6 at 90mph on single track roads
with passing places in the NW of Scotland. Fucking great fun"!

Not my fault you're too thick to drive fast.

"Vauxhalls and Fords are mass produced. VWs are engineered".

What do you find wrong with that?

[snip more silly quotes, collected by Pounder the OCD stalker]

They are your quotes.

You collected them, which makes you a psychopath.

You posted them, you freak.
I enjoy taking the piss out of wankers, and you are a wanker.

Because I disagree with your illogical beliefs?

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:33:08 +0100, TMS320, yet another brain damaged,
troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered again:


> You asked.

Nope, senile asshole! HE baited, and YOU bit!

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 03:07:05 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

On 23/6/19 2:03 am, TMS320 wrote:
On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

It doesn't.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as
there is in a running car?

Ohm's law.

That's a bit *deep* for some people to comprehend.

It's also impossible to use it without having a remote (to the alternator) sensor. It's like my power company telling me if I'm using a kettle or a toaster.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

Well I see the full voltage charging a flat battery at idle. Obviously they could be designed to be capable of this and it would be very useful to charge the battery quickly when doing stop start town driving, or driving at minimum revs in top gear in a town.


On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:07:14 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

On 23/6/19 5:47 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Modern car alternators seem to be able to give out a huge amount of
current at engine idle speed. I'm sure my friend got his to give out
pretty much the full 80 amps without revving the engine. He was
powering a small disco on a campsite

No way to get a full 80 amps out of an alternator *at idle*.

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:00:34 +0100, Brian Gaff
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and
these days, I'm sure the direction of current flow and voltages are
monitored very well by the computers. In the old days it was a bit of a
black art just relying on the ability of the alternator or dynamo in
the old
bangers.
Normally the output will change due to engine speed, but in alternators
there is a voltage regulator inbuilt to keep the thing pretty
nominal and
of course the thing that then suffers is the charging rate, ie its
going to
be be slower when its not running very fast. I think if a battery dips
below
about 11v outside of starter transients, you have to charge it or get
a new
one. This very accurate sensing these days can often mask a battery
on its
last legs though, as people tend to ignore warnings if the car still
works,
then they leave it a couple of days and it won't start!

Brian

 

[Daniel60]

Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:

On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??


--
Daniel

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/07/2019 10:09, Daniel60 wrote:

Xeno wrote on 22/06/2019 9:03 PM:
On 22/6/19 8:00 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes indeed, the nominal output of an alternator can be as high as 15
volts,
but even a fully charged car battery is only 13.8v as far as I know and

A 12 Volt lead acid battery will show 13.2 volts straight off the
charger, about 2.2 volts per cell. That will drop to about 12.7 volts
after a day or so, a tad over 2.1 volts per cell.

On the other hand, a vehicle's nominal *system voltage* is 14 Volts.
That's because the *alternator typically operates in the 13.8-14.2 range.

Due to increasing loads on vehicle electrical equipment, manufacturers
were pushing to a nominal 42 Volt electrical system on cars. They were
to be equipped with a 36 Volt battery. It may not happen now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system

Do Electric Cars have a 'standard' operating voltage?? Or does it vary
from one manufacturer to another??

There would be no reason to have a standard voltage - standard charge
voltage, yes. 230 single phase or 400 three phase (same thing)

A far as battery voltages go - looking at say 200bhp (around 260Kw) is
around 660A at 400V.

which is still a lot of amps. I'd say the ideal is probably near the
limit of *cheap* semiconductor power FETS probably around 1kv or so.

I am a long time out of that field though, so it may be higher.

What I am fairly sure of however is that battery voltage will be decided
by cost of using that particular voltage and that will be down to what
semiconductors are available.

Should the market develop towards standardised batteries that could be
replaced by a local kwikfit etc, then I am sure manufacturers would
develop a common standard.


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.