Laser printer gloat

[PeterD]

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:34:53 -0700, D Yuniskis
<not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, even printing 8.5x11 photos (i.e., 100% ink coverage)
I haven't been able to "empty" any of them!

You are just not printing enough!

You've either got bad rollers, a bad fuser or "off brand" toner.

Pickup rollers probably, clean with acetone as a first step try. Then
replace 'em.

...
I couldn't *kill* my LJii! I finally had to get rid of it as
the electric costs were ridiculous (though the toner carts
were awful cheap!)

Make a wonderful space heater for winter, however. Keeps my office
toasty warm!

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've
never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed
sheets even when brand new.

My 4M will. However, there's no question that it's not a bad idea to let the
paper cool down and flatten out.

 

[Roger Blake]

On 2009-11-04, David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

My Canon LBP-430 (same as an HP LaserJet 4L) is still soldiering on
after 15 years. I have changed the cartridge a couple of times, and
recently scored a few very inexpensive toners at a thrift store
to keep it going another 15 years.

--
Roger Blake
(Subtract 10s for email. "Google Groups" messages killfiled due to spam.)
"Obama dozed while people froze."

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:30:22 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Yeah; if only we could have desktop printers with feeders as reliable as
the one on the Heidelberg Speedmaster I used to "own" ... now *that's* a
feeder!

Ummm.... sure:
<http://www.heidelberg.com/www/html/en/content/overview1/products/sheetfed_overview-qg>
I'm not familiar with it, but my guess is that it uses vacuum pickup
to handle large format and heavy items, such as box cardboard. Such
technology doesn't scale well for the home and small biz printer.
Ignoring the size, price tag, skill level, ink handling, and required
accessories (i.e. dryer), the home version of this beast would
probably make so much noise that it would be unsellable. Still, it
might be possible to borrow some of the paper handling technology and
use it for small printers. For example, instead of pick and plop
vacuum paper handling, the feed rollers could use vacuum to grab,
hold, and eventually release the paper. I suspect that this may also
become a vacuum cleaner, sucking up dust and filth from the
surroundings, but that can be handled by occasionally reversing the
air flow and blasting the dust back into the owners face, until they
get the clue.

Having seen miniature engines, metal working machinery, and
automobiles, I suspected that someone might build a miniature offset
press that could be adaptable for home use. There's a 1937 patent:
<http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=fOo-AAAAEBAJ&dq=2099962>
which is not very useful. Google found some vendors in China and
India that sell miniature offset presses. However, their idea of
miniature is about the size of refrigerator. I couldn't find anything
the size of a typical inkjet printer. So, there's your dot.com
opportunity. Design and sell mini-Heidelberg style offset presses for
those home users that need to print on all manner of wrinkled,
pre-printed, warped, filthy, and disgusting paper without a paper jam.
Incidentally, forget about cut sheet paper. Roll feed is far faster,
cheaper, and generally better.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:55:17 -0500, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net>
wrote:

I've installed networked HP lasers since the 4M with network card
installed was the latest and greatest. I've seen some of those with
page counts upwards of 100,000 having nothing major done besides
a cleaning.

I beg to differ somewhat. The HP LJ4 series does have some chronic
wear parts that cause problems.

Number one on the paper jam causing list is the rear rubber feed
roller assembly (4 rubber rollers on a shaft) located in the back of
the printer (RF5-1077). Microscopic changes in diameter of this
roller causes the paper handling to loose sync with the exit rollers
(RF5-1076) at the top of the printer, causing a nasty paper jam at the
exit roller. Since the two sets of rollers contact the paper at the
same time, they have to be operating at exactly the same effective
paper speed or it will jam. I usually replace both the upper and
lower exit rollers to be sure.

The tray 2 rubber feed roller (RB1-3477) is also a chronic problem. It
tends to get polished when it slips, resulting in insufficient pickup
traction. That causes misfeeds from the tray.

The foam rubber transfer roller (RF5-0349) will eventually get clogged
with white clay paper coating and paper dust and need to be cleaned. I
wash these in soap and water, but that takes time to dry. So, I
usually replace the transfer roller with a new or cleaned roller.

Plenty of repair kits available on eBay and elsewhere:
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260291368693>

My favorite printer repair tool... an air compressor. However, do it
outside.

About 10 years ago, I maintained a few HP4 series printers. A billing
service had one with 300,000 pages. I replaced some minor plastic
parts that had worn out, and I think it ran for another 20,000 pages
before being retired. My HP4Plus went to about 130,000 pages. I know
of several others that are around 100,000 pages. Yep, they last as do
the older HPII and HPIII series printers. However, I won't say
anything nice about the envelope feeder attachments. They're really
awful and a common reason for customers to upgrade to a better
printer.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:12:18 +0000, baron
<baron.nospam@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:

The old Panasonic's were great printers ! As you remark it would print
on anything including the back of already printed sheets. Ours was
used with two and three part NCR paper. The hard part was the software
to ensure that it registered and collated properly.

The old Panasonic KX-4450 series laser printers were awful. When
clean, they would work just fine. They didn't jam because the
projecting paper trays would simulate a straight line paper path. They
did bar codes, which was a big attraction at the time. However,
keeping them running and clean was a challenge. I had one in a
machine shop that was as good as dead after about 30,000 pages.
Another was in a small factory next to a farm that ate enough dirt to
destroy almost all the rubber parts. The toner overflow mechanism was
messy and would frequently dump toner everywhere. It was instant
quality problems from "clumping" if someone dumped the "waste" toner
back into the toner bin. Much as I liked the economy of the bottled
toner, it was messy to refill. Because of the open toner bin
construction, I couldn't keep it clean with an air hose. There were
two in relatively clean environments that lasted to about 70,000
pages, but they required almost constant cleaning to remain
functional.

The bottled toner was very cheap as well which made the machine very
economical compared to similar machines.

True.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 11/4/2009 8:01 AM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:30:22 -0800, David Nebenzahl
nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Yeah; if only we could have desktop printers with feeders as reliable as
the one on the Heidelberg Speedmaster I used to "own" ... now *that's* a
feeder!

Ummm.... sure:
http://www.heidelberg.com/www/html/en/content/overview1/products/sheetfed_overview-qg
I'm not familiar with it, but my guess is that it uses vacuum pickup
to handle large format and heavy items, such as box cardboard.

Yes. Like most real printing presses (as opposed to smaller "presses"
that are somewhat disparagingly called "duplicators"), the feeder uses
vacuum pickup, assisted by air blowers to separate the top sheets of the
stack. The Heidelberg feeder was pretty cool: it somewhat
counterintuitively picked up the sheet at the *back* and fed it forward.
Really cool to see a "stream" feeder in operation. When properly
adjusted, performs flawlessly.

Still, it might be possible to borrow some of the paper handling
technology and use it for small printers. For example, instead of
pick and plop vacuum paper handling, the feed rollers could use
vacuum to grab, hold, and eventually release the paper.

That would be kewl.

Having seen miniature engines, metal working machinery, and
automobiles, I suspected that someone might build a miniature offset
press that could be adaptable for home use. There's a 1937 patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=fOo-AAAAEBAJ&dq=2099962
which is not very useful. Google found some vendors in China and
India that sell miniature offset presses. However, their idea of
miniature is about the size of refrigerator. I couldn't find anything
the size of a typical inkjet printer.

Ackshooly, the AB Dick 320 offset duplicator was a table-top model only
slightly larger than the larger laser printers of the early days. I
first learned to print on one of those, using direct paper plates (you
typed and wrote directly on the plate using special ribbons and pencils,
almost like a mimeograph). But the 320, being a dinky "press", used
friction feed (rubber rollers) which of course isn't nearly as good as
vacuum feed.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

 

[Warren Block]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

About 10 years ago, I maintained a few HP4 series printers. A billing
service had one with 300,000 pages. I replaced some minor plastic
parts that had worn out, and I think it ran for another 20,000 pages
before being retired. My HP4Plus went to about 130,000 pages. I know
of several others that are around 100,000 pages. Yep, they last as do
the older HPII and HPIII series printers.

I know of at least one LJ4050 that's over a million pages, and others
approaching that. The fusers wear out a bit earlier than predicted
(170-180K pages instead of 200K) and of course they've been through a
couple of sets of rollers. My old LJ4M still works, but it's not
anywhere near the class of those printers. Sometimes "new and improved"
is actually true.

--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On 4 Nov 2009 19:47:53 GMT, Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com> wrote:

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

About 10 years ago, I maintained a few HP4 series printers. A billing
service had one with 300,000 pages. I replaced some minor plastic
parts that had worn out, and I think it ran for another 20,000 pages
before being retired. My HP4Plus went to about 130,000 pages. I know
of several others that are around 100,000 pages. Yep, they last as do
the older HPII and HPIII series printers.

I know of at least one LJ4050 that's over a million pages, and others
approaching that.

Nice. Looking at my equipment log, I have customers with a 4000 and
another with a 4050. 125,000 and 250,000 pages respectively as of
about June 2009. I think the most pages on a single printer I've
dealt with was a payroll service, that would print almost continuously
8 hrs per day, 5 days per week, resulting in about 300,000 pages per
year. I think one made it to 600,000 pages. However, they weren't
trying to break any records, so old printers were retired as soon as
they developed any kind of mechanical problem.

The fusers wear out a bit earlier than predicted
(170-180K pages instead of 200K) and of course they've been through a
couple of sets of rollers.

The LJII and LJIII would occasionally burn out the fuser lamp. More
commonly, the relay in the power supply module would fry it contacts:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/hp-relay.html>
Note the pitted contacts. The triac in the power supply would also
blow up. I spent lots of time rebuilding HP LJII and LJIII power
supplies.

More common failures in the HP LJII and LJIII fusers was a build up of
melted toner on the thermostat and on the 4 stripped blades. These
would eventually gouge the surface of the drum, and expose the
underlying aluminum. A filthy felt scrubber will also gouge the drum.
Pull the scrubber and remove any melted toner. Melted toner in the
gears was also a problem.

If you have an HP LJII and LJIII, open the top, and pull the hinged
stripper blade assembly towards the back of the printer. It's on the
back side of the fuser. No need to remove the fuser from the unit.
Take a plastic blade and scrape clean the 4 sharp stripper blades from
any melted toner. If there's a vertical stripe smear, about 1/4"
wide, about 2 inches from the left side of the page, remove the fuser,
and clean the melted toner off the top of the thermostat. The think
plastic end covers on the fuser tend to crumble or break off, but the
fuser will work without them.

I don't really know how long an HP LJII or LJIII fuser is expected to
last. I found myself rotating rebuilt fusers among my customers
roughly every 100,000 pages.

Oh yeah... air hose the filth out of the ozone filter, under the
corona wire, and on the bottom of the printer.

My old LJ4M still works, but it's not
anywhere near the class of those printers. Sometimes "new and improved"
is actually true.

I listed the common HP LJ4 problems in another rant. Think about
getting a rubber parts replacement kit:
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380173905415>
The exit roller is the major culprit for paper jams.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[D Yuniskis]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

My old LJ4M still works, but it's not
anywhere near the class of those printers. Sometimes "new and improved"
is actually true.

I listed the common HP LJ4 problems in another rant. Think about
getting a rubber parts replacement kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380173905415
The exit roller is the major culprit for paper jams.

I find it uneconomical to buy parts for older kit. Easier to
just hunt around for one at a thrift store (the going rate
for LJ4's around here is $20) -- chances are, you'll also end
up with some free toner in the printer!

 

[b]

On 4 nov, 15:40, Roger Blake <rogblak...@iname10.com> wrote:

On 2009-11-04, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

My Canon LBP-430 (same as an HP LaserJet 4L) is still soldiering on
after 15 years. I have changed the cartridge a couple of times, and
recently scored a few very inexpensive toners at a thrift store
to keep it going another 15 years.

I have a canon LBP-4u which is also a Laserjet 4L in disguise. It was
a skip find a few years ago, and works like a champ. I also salvaged
some 4l toners to use with it should the need arise. Not sure what
resolution it is, I think it could probably be better in this
department.

-B

 

[Meat Plow]

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:26:59 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:55:17 -0500, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net
wrote:

I've installed networked HP lasers since the 4M with network card
installed was the latest and greatest. I've seen some of those with
page counts upwards of 100,000 having nothing major done besides
a cleaning.

I beg to differ somewhat. The HP LJ4 series does have some chronic
wear parts that cause problems.

Number one on the paper jam causing list is the rear rubber feed
roller assembly (4 rubber rollers on a shaft) located in the back of
the printer (RF5-1077). Microscopic changes in diameter of this
roller causes the paper handling to loose sync with the exit rollers
(RF5-1076) at the top of the printer, causing a nasty paper jam at the
exit roller. Since the two sets of rollers contact the paper at the
same time, they have to be operating at exactly the same effective
paper speed or it will jam. I usually replace both the upper and
lower exit rollers to be sure.

The tray 2 rubber feed roller (RB1-3477) is also a chronic problem. It
tends to get polished when it slips, resulting in insufficient pickup
traction. That causes misfeeds from the tray.

The foam rubber transfer roller (RF5-0349) will eventually get clogged
with white clay paper coating and paper dust and need to be cleaned. I
wash these in soap and water, but that takes time to dry. So, I
usually replace the transfer roller with a new or cleaned roller.

Plenty of repair kits available on eBay and elsewhere:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260291368693

My favorite printer repair tool... an air compressor. However, do it
outside.

About 10 years ago, I maintained a few HP4 series printers. A billing
service had one with 300,000 pages. I replaced some minor plastic
parts that had worn out, and I think it ran for another 20,000 pages
before being retired. My HP4Plus went to about 130,000 pages. I know
of several others that are around 100,000 pages. Yep, they last as do
the older HPII and HPIII series printers. However, I won't say
anything nice about the envelope feeder attachments. They're really
awful and a common reason for customers to upgrade to a better
printer.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:26:59 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:55:17 -0500, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net
wrote:

I've installed networked HP lasers since the 4M with network card
installed was the latest and greatest. I've seen some of those with
page counts upwards of 100,000 having nothing major done besides
a cleaning.

I beg to differ somewhat. The HP LJ4 series does have some chronic
wear parts that cause problems.

Number one on the paper jam causing list is the rear rubber feed
roller assembly (4 rubber rollers on a shaft) located in the back of
the printer (RF5-1077). Microscopic changes in diameter of this
roller causes the paper handling to loose sync with the exit rollers
(RF5-1076) at the top of the printer, causing a nasty paper jam at the
exit roller. Since the two sets of rollers contact the paper at the
same time, they have to be operating at exactly the same effective
paper speed or it will jam. I usually replace both the upper and
lower exit rollers to be sure.

The tray 2 rubber feed roller (RB1-3477) is also a chronic problem. It
tends to get polished when it slips, resulting in insufficient pickup
traction. That causes misfeeds from the tray.

The foam rubber transfer roller (RF5-0349) will eventually get clogged
with white clay paper coating and paper dust and need to be cleaned. I
wash these in soap and water, but that takes time to dry. So, I
usually replace the transfer roller with a new or cleaned roller.

Plenty of repair kits available on eBay and elsewhere:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260291368693

My favorite printer repair tool... an air compressor. However, do it
outside.

About 10 years ago, I maintained a few HP4 series printers. A billing
service had one with 300,000 pages. I replaced some minor plastic
parts that had worn out, and I think it ran for another 20,000 pages
before being retired. My HP4Plus went to about 130,000 pages. I know
of several others that are around 100,000 pages. Yep, they last as do
the older HPII and HPIII series printers. However, I won't say
anything nice about the envelope feeder attachments. They're really
awful and a common reason for customers to upgrade to a better
printer.

I've got an old 4m that was pulled and replaced. It was located in the
front reception office of a steel fabricating plant. Only chronic
problems I experienced with it were related to communication with the
print spool on their Novell server. Nothing really mechanicl besides
brown haze which eventually covered everything getting into the
printer optics. I pulled the laser unit off and cleaned the prism and
mirror maybe every 6 months. They upgraded to a 6p dual tray and gave
me the 4 rather than binning it. That was in 2001.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:45:31 -0500, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net>
wrote:

They upgraded to a 6p dual tray and gave
me the 4 rather than binning it. That was in 2001.

About 6 months ago, also I recycled 3ea HP LJ 6p printers I was saving
for parts. I was down to one customer with a 6mp so it wasn't worth
saving much. I needed the space more than the parts. I built up one
printer and gave it to the neighbors kids. No complaints so I guess
they're either using it effectively for school work, or have totally
destroyed it by now.

The 6p was reasonably state-o-de-art in 2001 but is a loser by today's
standards. It's very slow (8ppm), very slow to start (90 sec), a
slight power hog, and a desk space hog. 600dpi is ok for everything
except photographs. There are a few minor mechanical issues, but
basically it's a decent printer (once it warms up). I don't like the
large footprint, but the fairly low profile offers opportunities to
hide the printer where the taller equivalents (i.e. LJ4) don't fit. As
long as the rubber parts are clean and soft, I haven't seen many paper
misfeeds. The HP 03A toner cart is rated at about 4000 pages (at 5%
coverage), and seems to deliver (I've never kept track).

Most of the real failures I've seen on the HP LJ 6p series were blown
electronics. There doesn't seem to be a pattern as most were caused
by power glitches which seems to do random damage. I usually replace
the main pickup roller on the 6P and similar construction 4P when
diving in because it usually requires total disassembly to replace the
roller and I might as well do it while disassembled.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 11/5/2009 7:05 PM Bob Larter spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/3/2009 9:39 PM Bob Larter spake thus:

It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct
side of the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, &
a label saying "Print this side first", & load your paper tray
accordingly. It'll also help to riffle the stack of paper before
loading it into the cartridge. Give the paper cartridge a shake
to even up the edges before putting it in the printer.

I've done all those things; none of them make the slightest
difference. (As a former printer, it's an automatic reflex for me
to fan paper before inserting it into a paper-eating machine.)

Well, something is clearly wrong. I serviced Canon-engine lasers for
many years, & all the larger models (ie; with more metal than plastic,
such as the CX, SX & MX engines) had really good paper-handling, & could
cope just fine with double-sided printing.

Yes, but those were Canon-engine printers, not HPs. As Jeff L. pointed
out, the HP design suffers from an abrupt turn right at the paper-pickup
point, which seems to be the snag that makes printing on just-printed
sheets very problematic.

Believe me, I've tried this many, many times, as I prefer to print long
documents on both sides of the paper.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

 

[Bob Larter]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:12:18 +0000, baron
baron.nospam@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:

The old Panasonic's were great printers ! As you remark it would print
on anything including the back of already printed sheets. Ours was
used with two and three part NCR paper. The hard part was the software
to ensure that it registered and collated properly.

The old Panasonic KX-4450 series laser printers were awful. When
clean, they would work just fine. They didn't jam because the
projecting paper trays would simulate a straight line paper path. They
did bar codes, which was a big attraction at the time. However,
keeping them running and clean was a challenge. I had one in a
machine shop that was as good as dead after about 30,000 pages.
Another was in a small factory next to a farm that ate enough dirt to
destroy almost all the rubber parts. The toner overflow mechanism was
messy and would frequently dump toner everywhere. It was instant
quality problems from "clumping" if someone dumped the "waste" toner
back into the toner bin. Much as I liked the economy of the bottled
toner, it was messy to refill. Because of the open toner bin
construction, I couldn't keep it clean with an air hose. There were
two in relatively clean environments that lasted to about 70,000
pages, but they required almost constant cleaning to remain
functional.

The lasers I hated most were the small Toshibas - their fuser assemblies
had a nasty habit of melting down. After seeing the same units coming
back again & again, we eventually banned them from our workshop.


--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bob Larter]

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/3/2009 9:39 PM Bob Larter spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed
sheets. Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to
print this way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options,
but to me, that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser
printer my old office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no
better than the HP we also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the
Panasonic would feed *any* paper you put into it, even if it had just
been run through the printer on one side. I'd always use it to print
out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of
the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label
saying "Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly.
It'll also help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into
the cartridge. Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges
before putting it in the printer.

I've done all those things; none of them make the slightest difference.
(As a former printer, it's an automatic reflex for me to fan paper
before inserting it into a paper-eating machine.)

Well, something is clearly wrong. I serviced Canon-engine lasers for
many years, & all the larger models (ie; with more metal than plastic,
such as the CX, SX & MX engines) had really good paper-handling, & could
cope just fine with double-sided printing.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[isw]

In article <hd003e$q6$1@blackhelicopter.databasix.com>,
Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com> wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/3/2009 9:39 PM Bob Larter spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed
sheets. Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to
print this way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options,
but to me, that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser
printer my old office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no
better than the HP we also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the
Panasonic would feed *any* paper you put into it, even if it had just
been run through the printer on one side. I'd always use it to print
out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of
the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label
saying "Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly.
It'll also help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into
the cartridge. Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges
before putting it in the printer.

I've done all those things; none of them make the slightest difference.
(As a former printer, it's an automatic reflex for me to fan paper
before inserting it into a paper-eating machine.)

Well, something is clearly wrong. I serviced Canon-engine lasers for
many years, & all the larger models (ie; with more metal than plastic,
such as the CX, SX & MX engines) had really good paper-handling, & could
cope just fine with double-sided printing.

The old Apple LaserWriters with Canon engines are nearly unkillable, if
a bit slow. The most jam-prone printer I ever saw, though, had a Xerox
engine! You'd think that if anybody knew about paper handling, it'd be
them...

Isaac

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines of "my old printer
still works; does yours?".

Since you asked, yes, it did. I had an HP LaserJet III that I ran the page
counter over to all zeroes. All it ever asked for was the odd new pick
roller and toner. It never gave any power supply trouble. In fact, the only
thing it didn't have was enough installed memory to handle some jobs.

It worked great until a basement flood came along. And it might have worked
even then, but it disappeared before I could even try to clean it and see
what would happen.

It was pretty weird seeing a printer that old reporting a page count of a
few hundred after it rolled over.

More recently, I saw a Sharp AR-M450P unit make 1.5 million copies with only
routine maintenance. Ironically enough, it was more reliable than the newer
(330,000 copies) AR-M450 that replaced it.

Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used in
a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it: printed
out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge to empty
out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd cartridge I got
with the printer, still in its foil package.)

Maybe you got a never-ending cartridge?

Or perhaps it is in the page coverage percentage. Printer makers express
toner cartridge life at a given % of coverage on a page. I think the usual
figure is based on a 10% coverage. If I'm remembering it right, 10% coverage
on a page is actually a lot closer to being "fully loaded" than you'd think.

but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper you put into it, even if it had
just been run through the printer on one side. I'd always use it to print
out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

Evidently nobody ever told their dot-matrix printer design team that it was
possible to do this. I had a KX-P2123 whose tractor feed had to be set up
*precisely* or it would tangle and eat the paper. I knew of many others that
had the same problem. I finally dumped it in favor of an Epson ActionPrinter
T1000 (a printer that proved so tough that vandals with a baseball bat
couldn't break it). I haven't powered it on in a while, but I'm sure it
would still work fine.

William

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:05:41 +1000, Bob Larter <bobbylarter@gmail.com>
wrote:

Well, something is clearly wrong. I serviced Canon-engine lasers for
many years, & all the larger models (ie; with more metal than plastic,
such as the CX, SX & MX engines)

Ummm... I think you mean CX, SX, and NX. There is no MX.
<http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/LaserJets.html>
All the HP (something)X LaserJet printers were made by Canon.

had really good paper-handling, & could
cope just fine with double-sided printing.

Let me try to explain again, for the third time (with some additions).

The printers expect the pages to be flat. Pages that have gone
through the printer tend to be slightly warped. You can demonstrate
this by finding a truly flat and smooth surface, and plopping a piece
of printed paper onto this surface. Flip it over and compare how it
lies on the flat surface to that of a clean unprinted page. It
invariable has a lump on one side or other. That's fatal to many feed
mechanism, especially those that use only a single foot or roller in
the middle of the page.

Remelting the toner on the back side of the page sometimes causes the
toner to stick to the rubber roller in the fuser, causing exit jams.
Take a page of recently printed paper and slide an unprinted page over
the printed page on the flat surface. If you're careful, you can feel
the increased and erratic drag. If your not a believer, hang an
alligator clip on the end of a fish scale. Plop the printed page into
a stack of new unprinted paper. Pull and measure the tension required
to pull the paper out of the stack. Now, do the same think with an
unprinted page. Depending on the height of the stack, the printed
page has increased drag over the unprinted page. Yes, I know that the
printer does not pull paper from the middle of the stack. The weight
of the paper pile is to simulate the pressure supplied by the rubber
feed roller.

That's an especially bad problem if you print a stack of paper, and
then feed the stack back through the printer again to print on the
back side. The pages will stick together because the black plastic
toner is fairly lumpy and slightly sticky. Printing on the back side
also tend to transfer some toner from the back side to the rubber
roller in the fuser assembly. The HPII and HPIII were especially bad
at leaving impressions on the roller. Later printers uses a mylar
sheet between the fuser and the rubber roller. Reheated toner on the
back of the page would not stick to the mylar.

The rubber "feet" above the feed tray don't like to push against
printed paper, where the black areas are much slicker than the
unprinted white paper. It's usually not a problem with a fairly new
printer, but after the rubber feet get worn and slick, things tend to
slide. I just fixed an HP 4000 printer with this problem.

In my never humble opinion, the Canon printer feed mechanism sucks.
It's major problems are the reliance on a single rubber feed roller
located in the middle of the page. When everything is proper (new
rubber, good flat 20 lb paper, no printing on the back, etc), it works
just fine. When something changes, it has so little friction surface,
that it screws up badly. If there's any crud in mechanism, the center
feed will cause the leading edge to misalign or corrugate, resulting
in a guaranteed paper jam.

The solution was provided in the 4000 thru 4300 series printers (and
some others). It has 4ea "D" shaped rubber feet to feed the paper off
the top of the stack. If one foot slips a little because it's sitting
on some printing or a bulge, the others will still feed the page in a
fairly straight line. The "D" feet are also very easy to replace.

These later printers also solved another problem. The HP LJ4 series
had two sets of coupled rollers contact the paper at the same time. If
there was even a slight difference in roller diameter, the paper would
either wrinkle, or the rollers would slip, and the paper would jam.
Bad design. This was fixed in later models by either having only one
set of rollers make contact, or adding a clutch to allow for changes
in roller diameter.

Incidentally, the HP4300 records the number of pages printed on a chip
attached to the toner cart. The printer records errors including
paper jams. I just connected to a customers network via VNC and
looked at their 4300 log file. About 10,000 pages on the toner cart
with 8 paper jams. I don't think I could ever come close to that with
a Canon SX series printer. This particular machine has a duplexer,
but it's normally not used for tax returns. I've seen this printer
grind through piles and piles of printed tax returns without ever
jamming. Their previous printer was an HP4si, which would jam at
least 2-4 times per ream of paper.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558