Kogan Internet radio KGNDRVCA

[Computer Nerd Kev]

#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal@yopmail.com> wrote:

in my experience most of the manufactured surface mount computer boards etc.
are bullet proof , if they're not physically damaged can be made to work.

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

--
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#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[news18]

On Sun, 05 May 2019 23:10:38 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

news18 <news18@woa.com.au> wrote:
On Sun, 05 May 2019 00:27:04 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
news18 <news18@woa.com.au> wrote:

Ther Op was discussing a hack, not circuitry design.

Yes, and if their approach to hacking were to power any circuit with
16V rated capacitors from 12V, I expect that it will often lead to
failures.
The explanation for that obviously requires reference to the design of
the circuit, and why decisions made during that design may not match
expectations.

Cost of 12V hack, Negligible. cost os x volt hack immessurable and a
whole pile of angst. it either breathes magic smoke => trash, or it
works and you contine to enjoy it.

You have quite a different approach to these things then. If I set out
to repair something and then break it further, I consider that a
personal failing

As opposed to making the sucker work again and getting on with my life.

Looking into the circuit design in order to carry out a proper repair
can be educational too, though that's limited with cheap modern devices
due to lack of available schematics and undocumented chips. Personally
I'd likely choose not to repair something if there was so little
information that I had to guess supply voltages, I'd probably put it
aside in case one day I want to dig deeper into reverse engineering it.

I hope you have lost of free storage.

 

[#BoycottEurovision2019]

Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal@yopmail.com> wrote:

in my experience most of the manufactured surface mount computer
boards etc. are bullet proof , if they're not physically damaged can
be made to work.

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

I'm going by my experiences with mobile phones, they seem to be made well .
I guess they have to take abuse like being bent, & dropped etc. weak point
being the screen.
IMO Laptops vary in quality in manufacture, I've seen some that have had the
soldered add-ons like SD card /USB slot, tear away from the board over use.

There are other issues like the ribbon cable foil separating off plastic
ribbon, or the latch
that secures it breaks off, because it's cheap & flimsy.

Some manufactures cut corners, others do thorough job
but you pay more for it.

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal@yopmail.com> wrote:

Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

I'm going by my experiences with mobile phones, they seem to be made well .
I guess they have to take abuse like being bent, & dropped etc. weak point
being the screen.
IMO Laptops vary in quality in manufacture, I've seen some that have had the
soldered add-ons like SD card /USB slot, tear away from the board over use.

There are other issues like the ribbon cable foil separating off plastic
ribbon, or the latch that secures it breaks off, because it's cheap &
flimsy.

Yeah, that's what I pull them apart looking for, and it seems to
often turn out to be the motherboard that's the problem in the
end. However by the time I've concluded that, the laptop is
completely disassembled (probably except for the screen) and I've
done countless tests on the individual parts. So the failures are
probably a lot more memorable than "swap the HDD... ah, it works
fine", "change the RAM... ah, it works fine", "new BIOS battery...
ah, it works fine" etc. successes.

In fact I recently bought a "broken" laptop very cheaply from Ebay,
which turned out to boot normally simply after I'd mounted the
Windows partition in Linux after booting to a Live CD. The Linux
ntfs-3g driver fixed the file system problem without me even
telling it to do so, and the hardware passed all the tests that I
threw at it.

Some manufactures cut corners, others do thorough job
but you pay more for it.

Perhaps, though I think there's a fair bit of luck involved these
days. Especially with laptops and phones where everything is being
crammed in to as tight a space as possible. It would be nice if
someone still made thick, heavy, but reliable laptops like the old
IBM (pre-Lenovo) Thinkpads, for example.

--
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#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[#BoycottEurovision2019]

Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal@yopmail.com> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

I wish you could tell that to some laptop motherboards that I have.
It always annoys me that if it gets to the point where the
motherboard's the problem, that's the end of any attempt at repair
(short of a new motherboard, which doesn't count in my book).

I'm going by my experiences with mobile phones, they seem to be made
well . I guess they have to take abuse like being bent, & dropped
etc. weak point being the screen.
IMO Laptops vary in quality in manufacture, I've seen some that have
had the soldered add-ons like SD card /USB slot, tear away from the
board over use.

There are other issues like the ribbon cable foil separating off
plastic ribbon, or the latch that secures it breaks off, because
it's cheap & flimsy.


Yeah, that's what I pull them apart looking for, and it seems to
often turn out to be the motherboard that's the problem in the
end. However by the time I've concluded that, the laptop is
completely disassembled (probably except for the screen) and I've
done countless tests on the individual parts. So the failures are
probably a lot more memorable than "swap the HDD... ah, it works
fine", "change the RAM... ah, it works fine", "new BIOS battery...
ah, it works fine" etc. successes.

I don't think you can do more than look for the obvious faults, if the
problem is at chip level , just toss it out.

In fact I recently bought a "broken" laptop very cheaply from Ebay,
which turned out to boot normally simply after I'd mounted the
Windows partition in Linux after booting to a Live CD. The Linux
ntfs-3g driver fixed the file system problem without me even
telling it to do so, and the hardware passed all the tests that I
threw at it.

Had something similar happen, I had a laptop that I thought the camera
didn't
work in windows (after trying different drivers ) , when I booted it up in
linux live CD , the camera was detected & working!

I presume the general 'vanilla' drivers in linux are better written or less
'buggy' than window drivers .

Some manufactures cut corners, others do thorough job
but you pay more for it.

Perhaps, though I think there's a fair bit of luck involved these
days. Especially with laptops and phones where everything is being
crammed in to as tight a space as possible. It would be nice if
someone still made thick, heavy, but reliable laptops like the old
IBM (pre-Lenovo) Thinkpads, for example.

I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the 'superfluous
components' removed and have them integrated into a handful of chips,
& that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

#BoycottEurovision2019 <jonahreal@yopmail.com> wrote:

I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the 'superfluous
components' removed and have them integrated into a handful of chips,
& that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

That's been happening for half a century at least, and while in the
past it was still possible to buy most of the chips replacing
individual parts, now custom chips and BGA chip packages have become
so common that most consumer goods are either impractical or
impossible to repair if one of their main chips dies.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[RMD]

On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
Hi All,

I've proved this by sticking metal pins into the DC output wires and
connecting an external variable DC power supply to these pins. The
radio then plays again. Currently I'm feeding it 12Volts DC, and the
radio stops working if I wind the voltage down to about 8 volts.

I've soak-tested theis radio with an unregulated 7.5V plugpack, which
puts out 11.2V on standby and 10.5V when the radio is on. The radio is
still working fine after 10 days, mostly operating on standby.

I've done further experiments on powering this radio. It will actually
work if powered by a regulated 7.5V plug-pack. Testing it with a
regulated variable supply it "stutters" at 7V.

I've ordered on-line a regulated plug-pack with selectable voltages
including 7,5V and 9V. I'll probably operate it on 7.5V unless I need
to boost it to 9V for reliable operation.

I can only find one accessible power supply capacitor, which, looking
with a mirror is 1000uF, but my old eyes are quite unable to see what
the voltage rating is. However, on what voltages I've subjected the
radio to already this electrolytic has handled up to 15V without
failing.

I'm just pleased I've rescued this radio from the e-waste bin. Looking
at the radio more closely, if it was other than the power supply
failure that actually happened, it would be likely impossible to fix

Btw Frontier Radio's former website, where you could register internet
radios and set up personalised station lists, has gone belly-up from
May 7th. The new Frontier Radio site has no facilities for radio
registration or personalised station lists.

Ross

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 8/5/19 5:19 pm, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:

I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the 'superfluous
components' removed and have them integrated into a handful of chips,
& that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

The trade-off is that by removing most of the components, they've also
removed almost all of the board-level failure modes. I view this change
as almost entirely positive.

The far more common failure modes reflect external hardware, which is
just as vulnerable (but also just as repairable) as it always was. The
reduction in cost from board-level integration has changed the economics
of repair (replacement is cheaper) so the external hardware also tends
to be down-graded - no sense fitting high quality stuff if it's going to
get chucked and replaced anyhow. This is not such a positive change for
the environment.

Clifford Heath.

 

[RMD]

On Thu, 09 May 2019 23:01:35 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:

I can only find one accessible power supply capacitor, which, looking
with a mirror is 1000uF, but my old eyes are quite unable to see what
the voltage rating is. However, on what voltages I've subjected the
radio to already this electrolytic has handled up to 15V without
failing.

I used a small dental mirror and was finally able to work out this
1000uF power supply smoothing capacitor is 16V rated.

Also, feeling around the various other components, which are all in
sealed tinned enclosures, I can't detect any warmth which might
indicate anything is overheating either on standby or while operating.

Ross

 

[#BoycottEurovision2019]

Clifford Heath wrote:

On 8/5/19 5:19 pm, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:
I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the
'superfluous components' removed and have them integrated into a
handful of chips, & that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

The trade-off is that by removing most of the components, they've also
removed almost all of the board-level failure modes. I view this
change as almost entirely positive.

The far more common failure modes reflect external hardware, which is
just as vulnerable (but also just as repairable) as it always was. The
reduction in cost from board-level integration has changed the
economics of repair (replacement is cheaper) so the external hardware
also tends to be down-graded - no sense fitting high quality stuff if
it's going to get chucked and replaced anyhow. This is not such a
positive change for the environment.

Clifford Heath

Once the boards are rid of 'superfluous stuff', they'd probable have easier
time extracting valuable metals, when all they're processing is integrated
circuits

"A tonne of mobile phones (about 6,000 handsets), for example, contains
about 130kg of copper, 3.5kg of silver, 340 grams of gold and 140 grams of
palladium, worth tens of thousands of dollars.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/unsw-microfactories-turn-unwanted-e-waste-valuable-metals

they just have to perfect the method of recycling & upscale for large scale
processing.

 

[#BoycottEurovision2019]

RMD wrote:

On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
Hi All,


I've proved this by sticking metal pins into the DC output wires and
connecting an external variable DC power supply to these pins. The
radio then plays again. Currently I'm feeding it 12Volts DC, and the
radio stops working if I wind the voltage down to about 8 volts.

I've soak-tested theis radio with an unregulated 7.5V plugpack, which
puts out 11.2V on standby and 10.5V when the radio is on. The radio is
still working fine after 10 days, mostly operating on standby.

Disregard the open circuit /unloaded voltage reading of plug pack.

The significant values is when its under load, 10.5v which I think is the
"sweet spot" the 'resonant voltage' where the circuit 'hums' along.

I've done further experiments on powering this radio. It will actually
work if powered by a regulated 7.5V plug-pack. Testing it with a
regulated variable supply it "stutters" at 7V.

I've ordered on-line a regulated plug-pack with selectable voltages
including 7,5V and 9V. I'll probably operate it on 7.5V unless I need
to boost it to 9V for reliable operation.

I can only find one accessible power supply capacitor, which, looking
with a mirror is 1000uF, but my old eyes are quite unable to see what
the voltage rating is. However, on what voltages I've subjected the
radio to already this electrolytic has handled up to 15V without
failing.

I'm just pleased I've rescued this radio from the e-waste bin. Looking
at the radio more closely, if it was other than the power supply
failure that actually happened, it would be likely impossible to fix

Btw Frontier Radio's former website, where you could register internet
radios and set up personalised station lists, has gone belly-up from
May 7th. The new Frontier Radio site has no facilities for radio
registration or personalised station lists.

Ross

manufacturers have got smart about forcing obsolescence on us by merging
hardware with software/net access & thus making perfectly working hardware
crippled with limited use, or not working at all.

The regulators have been asleep, & let corporations write the rules, as with
bubble jet printers where they sold replacement ink at prices equivalent to
weight in gold . If you tried to bypass it with generic 'colored water' the
chips had to be manipulated to work with generic ink.

now that the damage is done, & they've conned everybody to buy "direct to
landfill" product they've introduced "refillable" ink reservoirs to hook in
the next generation of customers.

Same with apple, what looks like a safety feature is making pallet loads of
iphones unusable because they haven't been properly "decommissioned" when
they
are traded in, and are unable to be resold 2nd hand.

"not all iCloud-locked phones are stolen devices-some of them are phones
that are returned to telecom companies as part of phone upgrade and
insurance programs. The large number of legitimately obtained, iCloud-locked
iPhones helps supply the independent phone repair industry with replacement
parts that cannot be obtained directly from Apple. But naturally, repair
companies know that a phone is worth more unlocked than it is locked, and so
some of them have waded into the hacking underground to become customers of
illegal iCloud unlocking companies."

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xyq8v/how-to-unlock-icloud-stolen-iphone

I can see this getting worse, with 5G IOT (internet of things )where every
electronic device will want to 'phone home' via the internet. & if the link
is lost device will stop working after a grace period.

Manufactures will track your oven, fridge, TV, toaster, toothbrush, radio,
camera etc.etc. & notify you that you need to update your hardware.

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

RMD <rmd@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 09 May 2019 23:01:35 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:

I can only find one accessible power supply capacitor, which, looking
with a mirror is 1000uF, but my old eyes are quite unable to see what
the voltage rating is. However, on what voltages I've subjected the
radio to already this electrolytic has handled up to 15V without
failing.


I used a small dental mirror and was finally able to work out this
1000uF power supply smoothing capacitor is 16V rated.

Also, feeling around the various other components, which are all in
sealed tinned enclosures, I can't detect any warmth which might
indicate anything is overheating either on standby or while operating.

Sounds like it should be fine.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 12/5/19 8:26 am, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:

Clifford Heath wrote:
On 8/5/19 5:19 pm, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:
I get the feeling electronics devices will have most of the
'superfluous components' removed and have them integrated into a
handful of chips, & that's it!

Totally impossible to repair.

The trade-off is that by removing most of the components, they've also
removed almost all of the board-level failure modes. I view this
change as almost entirely positive.

The far more common failure modes reflect external hardware, which is
just as vulnerable (but also just as repairable) as it always was. The
reduction in cost from board-level integration has changed the
economics of repair (replacement is cheaper) so the external hardware
also tends to be down-graded - no sense fitting high quality stuff if
it's going to get chucked and replaced anyhow. This is not such a
positive change for the environment.

Clifford Heath

Once the boards are rid of 'superfluous stuff', they'd probable have easier
time extracting valuable metals, when all they're processing is integrated
circuits

"A tonne of mobile phones (about 6,000 handsets), for example, contains
about 130kg of copper, 3.5kg of silver, 340 grams of gold and 140 grams of
palladium, worth tens of thousands of dollars.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/unsw-microfactories-turn-unwanted-e-waste-valuable-metals

I bet there's a lot less than 13% copper these days. In fact I think
that number was always bogus. Even if they use 1oz copper PCB coating,
that's about 1.5 grammes of copper in a phone that probably weighs
upwards of 200g.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 12/5/19 11:58 am, news18 wrote:

On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:01:20 +1000, Clifford Heath wrote:


I bet there's a lot less than 13% copper these days. In fact I think
that number was always bogus. Even if they use 1oz copper PCB coating,
that's about 1.5 grammes of copper in a phone that probably weighs
upwards of 200g.

The "size" of the coating really depends on the signal currents that are
on the board. Lots of magic smoke been let loose over the decades by
board designers that forgot that.

Do the math, mate. It doesn't add up.

However, where the major copper has been is in the wires in components
and increasingly, it is turnng up in heat migtigation devices.

A phone needed that much copper, the battery would only last minutes.

 

[news18]

On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:01:20 +1000, Clifford Heath wrote:

I bet there's a lot less than 13% copper these days. In fact I think
that number was always bogus. Even if they use 1oz copper PCB coating,
that's about 1.5 grammes of copper in a phone that probably weighs
upwards of 200g.

The "size" of the coating really depends on the signal currents that are
on the board. Lots of magic smoke been let loose over the decades by
board designers that forgot that.

However, where the major copper has been is in the wires in components
and increasingly, it is turnng up in heat migtigation devices.

 

[news18]

On Sun, 12 May 2019 08:26:24 +1000, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:

Once the boards are rid of 'superfluous stuff', they'd probable have
easier time extracting valuable metals, when all they're processing is
integrated circuits

"A tonne of mobile phones (about 6,000 handsets), for example, contains
about 130kg of copper, 3.5kg of silver, 340 grams of gold and 140 grams
of palladium, worth tens of thousands of dollars.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/unsw-microfactories-turn-
unwanted-e-waste-valuable-metals

they just have to perfect the method of recycling & upscale for large
scale processing.

Perfection of the method is running into the limits set by the "laws of
physics"; in this case,the chemical processes/cycles they go through to
produce the end products.

Practically, the $$$(the real driver) isn't there and landfilling is
still prime method. Chicken and egg to make any break
throughs in ther processes.

 

[news18]

On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:05:55 +1000, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 12/5/19 11:58 am, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:01:20 +1000, Clifford Heath wrote:


I bet there's a lot less than 13% copper these days. In fact I think
that number was always bogus. Even if they use 1oz copper PCB coating,
that's about 1.5 grammes of copper in a phone that probably weighs
upwards of 200g.

The "size" of the coating really depends on the signal currents that
are on the board. Lots of magic smoke been let loose over the decades
by board designers that forgot that.

Do the math, mate. It doesn't add up.

That been the problem, they didn't do the maths.

However, where the major copper has been is in the wires in components
and increasingly, it is turnng up in heat migtigation devices.

A phone needed that much copper, the battery would only last minutes.

Well, i've never deconstructed any 'mobile phone', but in everything
elsea I'v "deconstructed", my comment is true.

 

[keithr0]

On 5/12/2019 8:29 AM, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:

RMD wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
Hi All,


I've proved this by sticking metal pins into the DC output wires and
connecting an external variable DC power supply to these pins. The
radio then plays again. Currently I'm feeding it 12Volts DC, and the
radio stops working if I wind the voltage down to about 8 volts.

I've soak-tested theis radio with an unregulated 7.5V plugpack, which
puts out 11.2V on standby and 10.5V when the radio is on. The radio is
still working fine after 10 days, mostly operating on standby.

Disregard the open circuit /unloaded voltage reading of plug pack.

The significant values is when its under load, 10.5v which I think is the
"sweet spot" the 'resonant voltage' where the circuit 'hums' along.

"Resonant voltage" I worked in electronics for 50 odd years but that's a
new one on me.

 

[#BoycottEurovision2019]

keithr0 wrote:

On 5/12/2019 8:29 AM, #BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:
RMD wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
Hi All,


I've proved this by sticking metal pins into the DC output wires
and connecting an external variable DC power supply to these pins.
The radio then plays again. Currently I'm feeding it 12Volts DC,
and the radio stops working if I wind the voltage down to about 8
volts.

I've soak-tested theis radio with an unregulated 7.5V plugpack,
which puts out 11.2V on standby and 10.5V when the radio is on. The
radio is still working fine after 10 days, mostly operating on
standby.

Disregard the open circuit /unloaded voltage reading of plug pack.

The significant values is when its under load, 10.5v which I think
is the "sweet spot" the 'resonant voltage' where the circuit 'hums'
along.

"Resonant voltage" I worked in electronics for 50 odd years but
that's a new one on me.

get with the program grandpa , it's what the hip young kids call it these
days!

Its more "descriptive " than "technical" term, what about "operating
voltage"?

 

[#BoycottEurovision2019]

#BoycottEurovision2019 wrote:

RMD wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2019 05:44:52 GMT, rmd@invalid.invalid (RMD) wrote:
snip

I'm just pleased I've rescued this radio from the e-waste bin.
Looking at the radio more closely, if it was other than the power
supply failure that actually happened, it would be likely impossible
to fix Btw Frontier Radio's former website, where you could register
internet radios and set up personalised station lists, has gone
belly-up from May 7th. The new Frontier Radio site has no facilities
for radio registration or personalised station lists.

Ross

manufacturers have got smart about forcing obsolescence on us by
merging hardware with software/net access & thus making perfectly
working hardware crippled with limited use, or not working at all.

The regulators have been asleep, & let corporations write the rules,
as with bubble jet printers where they sold replacement ink at prices
equivalent to weight in gold . If you tried to bypass it with generic
'colored water' the chips had to be manipulated to work with generic
ink.
now that the damage is done, & they've conned everybody to buy
"direct to landfill" product they've introduced "refillable" ink
reservoirs to hook in the next generation of customers.

Same with apple, what looks like a safety feature is making pallet
loads of iphones unusable because they haven't been properly
"decommissioned" when they
are traded in, and are unable to be resold 2nd hand.

"not all iCloud-locked phones are stolen devices-some of them are
phones that are returned to telecom companies as part of phone
upgrade and insurance programs. The large number of legitimately
obtained, iCloud-locked iPhones helps supply the independent phone
repair industry with replacement parts that cannot be obtained
directly from Apple. But naturally, repair companies know that a
phone is worth more unlocked than it is locked, and so some of them
have waded into the hacking underground to become customers of
illegal iCloud unlocking companies."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xyq8v/how-to-unlock-icloud-stolen-iphone

I can see this getting worse, with 5G IOT (internet of things )where
every electronic device will want to 'phone home' via the internet. &
if the link is lost device will stop working after a grace period.

Manufactures will track your oven, fridge, TV, toaster, toothbrush,
radio, camera etc.etc. & notify you that you need to update your
hardware.

in one fell swoop google (Googification) have busted all bunch
of HW/SW linked devices by re-branding.

"I'm sure there are "Works with Nest" ecosystem users out there that bought
products specifically because they "Worked with Nest." When the service
shuts down in August, it sounds like all of those (probably expensive)
third-party smart home products will stop working with any Nest-based
automation workflows. This mandatory feature removal situation is pretty
much a smart home owner's worst nightmare.

Nest-branded products will continue to work with each other, but since
"Works with Nest" was a program that let other services talk to Nest, a lot
of third-party integrations will be going away. The Verge has a good rundown
of just how many services are going to break, and it's a brutal who's who of
smart home products. Amazon Alexa, Philips Hue, IFTTT, Logitech Harmony,
Lutron lights, August Home, and Wemo switches will all be affected."

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/05/nest-the-company-died-at-google-io-2019/