Jihad needs scientists

[krw]

In article <etr331$8ss_001@s997.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...

In article <MPG.2069abdf39337b7f98a1a5@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
In article <etohvn$8ss_003@s920.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
In article <MPG.20686614150361ab98a183@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

snip

P.S. I don't advise playing with gunpowder in the kitchen. ;-)

Oh, I don't intend to do this one. I just got curious and couldn't
figure out how. What's wrong with gunpowder in the kitchen?

Fire and explosions are frowned upon in my house. Gunpowder must
remain in the bullets.

What if one of your guns is a powder musket?

One isn't. ;-)

What table do you think my Dad used when he worked on his guns?

My bet is that he didn't fire them in the house. Much noise, stink,
and things get broken.

He fired through the window. (He opened it before he fired.)

I bet that woke up the cat. SWMBO doesn't even like my guns loaded
in the house. She doesn't even like me threatening the squirrels.
"No one would even hear a .22short."

--
Keith

 

[nonsense@unsettled.com]

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <MPG.2069abdf39337b7f98a1a5@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

In article <etohvn$8ss_003@s920.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...

In article <MPG.20686614150361ab98a183@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:


snip

P.S. I don't advise playing with gunpowder in the kitchen. ;-)

Oh, I don't intend to do this one. I just got curious and couldn't
figure out how. What's wrong with gunpowder in the kitchen?

Fire and explosions are frowned upon in my house. Gunpowder must
remain in the bullets.


What if one of your guns is a powder musket?


What table do you think my Dad used when he worked on his guns?

My bet is that he didn't fire them in the house. Much noise, stink,
and things get broken.


He fired through the window. (He opened it before he fired.)

I expect to do the same next fall.

 

[MooseFET]

On Mar 20, 8:03 pm, "nonse...@unsettled.com" <nonse...@unsettled.com>
wrote:

MooseFET wrote:
I assume you've had a few.

Nice.

Your participation began a significant decline

when you wrote:

The equation for pressure I gave above is not accurate.

You're on your own.

What a cute job of cutting the context you did there. Just reading
what you posted someone may get the false impression that you are
right so I copied the post you were resonding to below.

Those with some knowledge of physics will have recognized the well
known aproximation for pressure vs temperature that I posted. A quick
bit of figuring would have shown that it is best not to it at -86C.
In the band it is intended for, it works well enough.




**** Begin copy ****
n Mar 20, 2:52 am, "nonse...@unsettled.com" <nonse...@unsettled.com>
wrote:

MooseFET wrote:

[... in a kitchen ....]

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam
filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low
pressures:

P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4

True, but....

Actually not really true in a freezer. Pressures less than zero
rarely happen.

If we're into corrections then start with your misspelling
of Torr. I assumed you were willing to go lower than the
"normal" 0 Fahrenheit. Rather ordinary lab freezers go to
-86C while cooling using expansion of nitrogen gets much
lower. You're going to haw to redefine freezer to get
to the 50 Torr you proposed.

The equation for pressure I gave above is not accurate. It fails
badly when you go down near zero C.

I think you need to recheck your figures on the temperature needed.

To get a vacuum you have to have containment.
No, you only really need to keep stuff out not in. A stopper can be
held in by the vacuume.

Vacuum.

The operative word is can. Through a longer thermal
cycle from ambient to some low temperature most stoppers
will leak.

Not from 212 to 0C they don't seem to.

 

[nonsense@unsettled.com]

MooseFET wrote:

On Mar 20, 8:03 pm, "nonse...@unsettled.com" <nonse...@unsettled.com
wrote:

MooseFET wrote:

I assume you've had a few.

Nice.

Your participation began a significant decline

when you wrote:

The equation for pressure I gave above is not accurate.

You're on your own.


What a cute job of cutting the context you did there. Just reading
what you posted someone may get the false impression that you are
right so I copied the post you were resonding to below.

Those with some knowledge of physics will have recognized the well
known aproximation for pressure vs temperature that I posted.

Superficial.

A quick
bit of figuring would have shown that it is best not to it at -86C.
In the band it is intended for, it works well enough.

You're getting even further afield because you've failed
to understand all the facets of this "experiment" as you
yourself have proposed it.

google "vapor pressure" ice 378,000 hits

Is this where I suggest you might have had a few?

Nope, that's not my style.

**** Begin copy ****
n Mar 20, 2:52 am, "nonse...@unsettled.com" <nonse...@unsettled.com
wrote:

MooseFET wrote:


[... in a kitchen ....]

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam
filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low
pressures:


P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4


True, but....


Actually not really true in a freezer. Pressures less than zero
rarely happen.


If we're into corrections then start with your misspelling
of Torr. I assumed you were willing to go lower than the
"normal" 0 Fahrenheit. Rather ordinary lab freezers go to
-86C while cooling using expansion of nitrogen gets much
lower. You're going to haw to redefine freezer to get
to the 50 Torr you proposed.


The equation for pressure I gave above is not accurate. It fails
badly when you go down near zero C.

I think you need to recheck your figures on the temperature needed.


To get a vacuum you have to have containment.

No, you only really need to keep stuff out not in. A stopper can be
held in by the vacuume.


Vacuum.


The operative word is can. Through a longer thermal
cycle from ambient to some low temperature most stoppers
will leak.


Not from 212 to 0C they don't seem to.

 

In article <MPG.206b10e6a581f2b698a1e4@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

In article <etr331$8ss_001@s997.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
In article <MPG.2069abdf39337b7f98a1a5@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
In article <etohvn$8ss_003@s920.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
In article <MPG.20686614150361ab98a183@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

snip

P.S. I don't advise playing with gunpowder in the kitchen. ;-)

Oh, I don't intend to do this one. I just got curious and couldn't
figure out how. What's wrong with gunpowder in the kitchen?

Fire and explosions are frowned upon in my house. Gunpowder must
remain in the bullets.

What if one of your guns is a powder musket?

One isn't. ;-)

What table do you think my Dad used when he worked on his guns?

My bet is that he didn't fire them in the house. Much noise, stink,
and things get broken.

He fired through the window. (He opened it before he fired.)

I bet that woke up the cat.

Ah, actually, it killed the cat, among other critters. For the
PITA people, this was before you all became born and pests
were killed before they could breed more pests.

SWMBO doesn't even like my guns loaded
in the house. She doesn't even like me threatening the squirrels.

You threaten them?!!! When you see their leaf nest quivering, it
is because they're laughing their nuts off.

We use to eat them for supper.

"No one would even hear a .22short."

I remember one time Dad taking a gun he called his elephant gun
and shooting a big loose branch down from a very tall tree.
The bullets were 4-5 inches long---but I was little back then
when "big" could very well have been smaller than my memories.
That one had a very big bang.

/BAH

 

In article <54b9f$46016a49$49ecfdb$3436@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
In article <MPG.2069abdf39337b7f98a1a5@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

In article <etohvn$8ss_003@s920.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...

In article <MPG.20686614150361ab98a183@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:


snip

P.S. I don't advise playing with gunpowder in the kitchen. ;-)

Oh, I don't intend to do this one. I just got curious and couldn't
figure out how. What's wrong with gunpowder in the kitchen?

Fire and explosions are frowned upon in my house. Gunpowder must
remain in the bullets.


What if one of your guns is a powder musket?


What table do you think my Dad used when he worked on his guns?

My bet is that he didn't fire them in the house. Much noise, stink,
and things get broken.


He fired through the window. (He opened it before he fired.)

I expect to do the same next fall.

What's going to be dinner?

/BAH

 

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <5a788$45f7cdfe$4fe707e$27037@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <et7ljd$bq1$5@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:


In article <b33aa$45f6d225$4fe7292$20427@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
nonsense@unsettled.com <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:


Ken Smith wrote:



In article <et5v7k$8qk_001@s887.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
[....]



Did you write a TAPE.DIR onto the tape after the tape had already
been
written?

No. One of my requirements was that the file be the first in
the saveset.


In other words, you created it based on what you intended to write to
the
tape not what you actually wrote. This contradicts what you said

earlier.

It doesn't matter because the suggested method still works. The
checksum
could still have been correct.

The operative word is "could." It can never be "what was read from
the tape." Your entire argument on this matter has been silly. It
is an elementary problem in recursion.

Yes, it can be what was read from the tape. I explained elsewhere
exactly
how you can make the first file on the tape be based on the contents of
the tape after it has been written. Tape drives can write to the start
of
a tape without trashing the rest of the contents of the tape.


It will trash the rest of the tape. We shipped the files within
savesets.



The
operation is refered to as an "edit" write. It only requires that the
tape already contain a block of the same size. It has been done for
years.


But your edit write would not include the directory of the tape
after you wrote it.


There is no problem in recursion. There is no problem in making the
checksum correct. You seem to have missed the post where I filled you in
on how exactly the checksum of a file can be stored in the text of file
and be valid. Here is a hint:

checksum("0000ZZZZ") == checksum("1111YYYY")

You should be able to take it from there. When you figure it out try to
get BAH to understand.


/BAH understands your method just fine. First of all the editing
method would have trashed the first saveset. Second of all,
the file would not have been a directory of the tape after you
wrote the file to the tape.

I almost hate to say this, but I think that understanding
the problem is beyond him.


Definitely. I'm studying the phenomena. I have encountered this
before but it was rare in my area. I don't think one can do
comm and OS development without being able to breathe recursion
and live to tell about it .

I'm beginning to wonder if this lack is a common trait.
Consider the original thread subject matter. Weren't a lot
of the problems due to not being able to think recursively?

Looks like you found a new word.

Yep. I only knew it as it was used in my biz.

The answers we've seen over the months seem to me in
retrospect to have been rather linear with a lot of
semi-concealed "they're just like us" worldview. With
that premise being wrong, all that follows is as well.

hmmm...I don't think that is the key but it is an important
ingredient.

Dammit, we don't even appreciate the difference between
the Russian mind (semi-oriental) and ours. The US and the
CIA have, for many decades, been accused of all sorts of
underhanded stuff. Still, no one has tied together
anything like the recent anti-leader dieoffs we can
clearly see happening. Factually we consider the Russians
"just like us" and clearly they're not.

I've done some reading to try to figure out their mindset because
part of the Middle East mess invoved that mindset. I'm currently
reading a book about a kibbutz; I was floored because I did not
know that USSR was used as a model and admired very much in
the beginnings of the social experiment. I had not figured out
the ramifications of USSR "supporting" Israel in the beginning.

The middle eastern
mindset is still another sort of critter yet.

So far it seems like there is a mish-mash of cultures
there. Nazism is still an influence, too.

I've personally known some Russians, and they were very
nice. But where power, money, and their natural habitat
are concerned, things are rather different.

In my small observances, it was an honorable thing to do cheating.
I'm not going to explain this one very well. I suspect this kind
of behaviour is a result of totalitarianism.

It didn't seem to take a whole lot to herd the Jim Jones
bunch into a situation where ~1000 murder/suicides were
the end of the journey and achieved in the matter of a
few hours at most. One is amused at the thought that it
was socialist/communist/liberal thinking that led to that
debacle, as sad as the outcome was.

It is expected. It seems that most socialist flavored
enterprises seem to devolve into leaving the decisions,
thus all power, to one or a few people. Over time, the
only ones willing to do that work are the ones who have
enough emotional disturbance to believe themselves about
godhood.

I don't see societal power and control as linear functions.
I do see them as recursive, yes, with significant potential
for runaway positive feedback (for the electronics design
bunch to chew on.)

I think this is what happens. Whenever there is a conundrum
(and this includes a societal crisis), people who have this
kind of thinking latch on to the most minor detail that is
false. Then their coping ability will insist that the detail
be proved true before accepting the reality of the danger
the crisis has created.

So far, the only way to unlatch the notion is to give a direct
order and ignore the complaints and protests, etc.

I sure hope you understand what I wrote the way I meant to write
it because days of thinking hasn't produced a better set of
English ASCII.

One method to avoid this latching is to figure the datum
that will cause the concrete mindsetting and then never
mention it. However, this may be as futile as expecting
all kitchen dishes to remain clean for 24 hours.


/BAH

 

[Winfield Hill]

Eeyore wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
h...@rowland.org wrote:
h...@rowland.org wrote:
h...@rowland.org wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:
Winfield Hill wrote:

4200 postings and still going strong. Amazing.

Wow, now 7200 posts and still going strong. And most
of the posts were under the original subject title. This
must be some kind of a record. Certainly it's a stress
test for the Google Groups web-page display code, etc.

Never have so many, said so much, about so little! ;-)

I heard of one long flame war that passed 10K posts,
but I never found out which newsgroup.

We passed 9000 on the 14th, and are now within 100 posts
of 10,000. Keep up the good work guys, you can do it!

Good job guys and gals, over 10,000 posts, and still
going strong. And still on topic more or less. I've only
read a smattering of the posts here and there, and there's
a minimum of flaming SFAICS. Nice to see.

Still going strong, over 11,300 posts, no sign of slowing.

Impressive, zoomed right past 12,000 without slowing, now
at 12130 posts and climbing towards 13000, going strong.

Hmm, we're slowing down a bit folks! We're now at 12480
posts with 12500 in sight, but not so sure about 13000.

Merry Christmas, Win.

Happy New Year Michael

With this post we're only three away from breaking the
12500 post BARRIER. I know we can do it!

Now at 13950, still going strong!

Past the 14000 barrier now !

Past the 16,000 barrier, good going!
Did I miss when y'all zoomed past 15,000?

Howcome it's the stupidest threads that go on the longest? ;-)

Are you calling this thread STUPID ?

Sorry I missed the breaking of the 17000 barrier, but 17500 is
just 10 posts away! This thread also started Sept 30 last year,
so in 10 days it'll have been 6 months. Good show!

 

[nonsense@unsettled.com]

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

The answers we've seen over the months seem to me in
retrospect to have been rather linear with a lot of
semi-concealed "they're just like us" worldview. With
that premise being wrong, all that follows is as well.

hmmm...I don't think that is the key but it is an important
ingredient.

It is the starting point for understanding. IMO if
someone doesn't "get" this, they don't have any chance
at all.

Dammit, we don't even appreciate the difference between
the Russian mind (semi-oriental) and ours. The US and the
CIA have, for many decades, been accused of all sorts of
underhanded stuff. Still, no one has tied together
anything like the recent anti-leader dieoffs we can
clearly see happening. Factually we consider the Russians
"just like us" and clearly they're not.

I've done some reading to try to figure out their mindset because
part of the Middle East mess invoved that mindset. I'm currently
reading a book about a kibbutz; I was floored because I did not
know that USSR was used as a model and admired very much in
the beginnings of the social experiment. I had not figured out
the ramifications of USSR "supporting" Israel in the beginning.

Until Israel became part of the cold war gambits.

The middle eastern
mindset is still another sort of critter yet.

So far it seems like there is a mish-mash of cultures
there. Nazism is still an influence, too.

The operative word is primitive. Consider the importance
of symbolism and ritual in German Nazism in its day.

I've personally known some Russians, and they were very
nice. But where power, money, and their natural habitat
are concerned, things are rather different.

In my small observances, it was an honorable thing to do
cheating.

When you get a chance, read Gogol's "Dead Souls" which
is precisely on point.

I'm not going to explain this one very well. I suspect
this kind of behavior is a result of totalitarianism.

There's a popular line of reasoning that holds that there's
nothing wrong with violating laws and morality so long as
you don't get caught. It is universal across all cultural
systems. It could be that totalitarianism fosters more of
this conduct than other systems. The greater the risk the
greater the rewards?

It didn't seem to take a whole lot to herd the Jim Jones
bunch into a situation where ~1000 murder/suicides were
the end of the journey and achieved in the matter of a
few hours at most. One is amused at the thought that it
was socialist/communist/liberal thinking that led to that
debacle, as sad as the outcome was.

It is expected. It seems that most socialist flavored
enterprises seem to devolve into leaving the decisions,
thus all power, to one or a few people. Over time, the
only ones willing to do that work are the ones who have
enough emotional disturbance to believe themselves about
godhood.

Ask your parents about their governor and Michigan's
economy. At least Massachusetts has an economy to wreck.

I don't see societal power and control as linear functions.
I do see them as recursive, yes, with significant potential
for runaway positive feedback (for the electronics design
bunch to chew on.)

I think this is what happens. Whenever there is a conundrum
(and this includes a societal crisis), people who have this
kind of thinking latch on to the most minor detail that is
false. Then their coping ability will insist that the detail
be proved true before accepting the reality of the danger
the crisis has created.

So far, the only way to unlatch the notion is to give a direct
order and ignore the complaints and protests, etc.

I have a personal distaste for Lisa Ling despite the fact
that in recent years she's been doing some passable work.

One of her National Geo channel pieces aired in the past
few days. It had to do with a team that went to North Korea
to do en masse cataract surgery. The target was 1000 people
in 10 days.

When the people had their sight restored they bowed to
pictures of their Great Leader and thanked him for restoring
their sight. The medical team and all their volunteerism
meant squat.

This is no different from the blind adherence to any other
religion. In the North Korean instance, one form of blind
allegiance continued. OTOH I don't think they have much
choice to do otherwise in North Korea.

I sure hope you understand what I wrote the way I meant to write
it because days of thinking hasn't produced a better set of
English ASCII.

Kind of you. Thanks.

One method to avoid this latching is to figure the datum
that will cause the concrete mindsetting and then never
mention it. However, this may be as futile as expecting
all kitchen dishes to remain clean for 24 hours.

Purity ain't all that it is cracked up to be.

"Moderation in all things."

 

[MooseFET]

On Mar 21, 9:04 pm, "nonse...@unsettled.com" <nonse...@unsettled.com>
wrote:
[....]

A quick
bit of figuring would have shown that it is best not to it at -86C.
In the band it is intended for, it works well enough.

You're getting even further afield because you've failed
to understand all the facets of this "experiment" as you
yourself have proposed it.

No, you didn't understand it.

google "vapor pressure" ice 378,000 hits

Is this where I suggest you might have had a few?

Nope, that's not my style.

I was going to let you off the hook for the obviously wrong posting on
that basis. I guess you just want to stay on the hook.

You can get under 50Tor with water as the working material. A steam
filled container placed in the freezer would get down to quite low
pressures:

P = ( (T-Tmelt)/(Tboil-Tmelt) )^4

 

[nonsense@unsettled.com]

MooseFET wrote:

On Mar 21, 9:04 pm, "nonse...@unsettled.com" <nonse...@unsettled.com

I was going to let you off the hook for the obviously wrong posting on
that basis. I guess you just want to stay on the hook.

The issues have been solved. Now you're clearly trolling.

Bye.

 

[nonsense@unsettled.com]

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <54b9f$46016a49$49ecfdb$3436@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <MPG.2069abdf39337b7f98a1a5@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:


In article <etohvn$8ss_003@s920.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...


In article <MPG.20686614150361ab98a183@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:


snip

P.S. I don't advise playing with gunpowder in the kitchen. ;-)

Oh, I don't intend to do this one. I just got curious and couldn't
figure out how. What's wrong with gunpowder in the kitchen?

Fire and explosions are frowned upon in my house. Gunpowder must
remain in the bullets.


What if one of your guns is a powder musket?



What table do you think my Dad used when he worked on his guns?

My bet is that he didn't fire them in the house. Much noise, stink,
and things get broken.


He fired through the window. (He opened it before he fired.)

I expect to do the same next fall.


What's going to be dinner?

Dinner? Quite a few dinners. White tail.

Locally they get about $100 to butcher and pack the
whole thing. I'm not up for all that when experts do
it faster and better.

 

In article <2a614$460283f9$4fe7109$10420@DIALUPUSA.NET>, "nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> writes:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

The answers we've seen over the months seem to me in
retrospect to have been rather linear with a lot of
semi-concealed "they're just like us" worldview. With
that premise being wrong, all that follows is as well.

hmmm...I don't think that is the key but it is an important
ingredient.

It is the starting point for understanding. IMO if
someone doesn't "get" this, they don't have any chance
at all.

Dammit, we don't even appreciate the difference between
the Russian mind (semi-oriental) and ours. The US and the
CIA have, for many decades, been accused of all sorts of
underhanded stuff. Still, no one has tied together
anything like the recent anti-leader dieoffs we can
clearly see happening. Factually we consider the Russians
"just like us" and clearly they're not.

I've done some reading to try to figure out their mindset because
part of the Middle East mess invoved that mindset. I'm currently
reading a book about a kibbutz; I was floored because I did not
know that USSR was used as a model and admired very much in
the beginnings of the social experiment. I had not figured out
the ramifications of USSR "supporting" Israel in the beginning.

Until Israel became part of the cold war gambits.

The middle eastern
mindset is still another sort of critter yet.

So far it seems like there is a mish-mash of cultures
there. Nazism is still an influence, too.

The operative word is primitive. Consider the importance
of symbolism and ritual in German Nazism in its day.

I've personally known some Russians, and they were very
nice. But where power, money, and their natural habitat
are concerned, things are rather different.

In my small observances, it was an honorable thing to do
cheating.

When you get a chance, read Gogol's "Dead Souls" which
is precisely on point.

I'll second this recommendation. Can add to it Gogol's "Revisor"

(translated to English as "Inspector General", I think).

I'm not going to explain this one very well. I suspect
this kind of behavior is a result of totalitarianism.

There's a popular line of reasoning that holds that there's
nothing wrong with violating laws and morality so long as
you don't get caught. It is universal across all cultural
systems. It could be that totalitarianism fosters more of
this conduct than other systems. The greater the risk the
greater the rewards?

It is rather "no risk, no chance of reward". These are systems where
the general sense is that honest work will get you precisely nowhere.
Advancement is only possible by playing the system (knowing connected
people or people who know such people) or tricking it.

The Poles had, for hundreds of year, a folk saying to the effect that
"with patience and diligence, people acquire wealth" (it rhymes in
Polish, couldn't make it happen in English). But, after just few
years of Communist rule, in the 50s, a new version of the saying
appeared, as "with patience and diligence, people lose their health".
that pretty much says it.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"

 

[MassiveProng]

On 22 Mar 2007 05:34:44 -0700, "Winfield Hill" <hill@rowland.org> Gave
us:

Sorry I missed the breaking of the 17000 barrier, but 17500 is
just 10 posts away! This thread also started Sept 30 last year,
so in 10 days it'll have been 6 months. Good show!

You could be a bit more retarded... not sure how though.

 

In article <21ee6$4602bef8$4fe7549$11785@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
In article <54b9f$46016a49$49ecfdb$3436@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <MPG.2069abdf39337b7f98a1a5@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
snip

He fired through the window. (He opened it before he fired.)

I expect to do the same next fall.


What's going to be dinner?

Dinner? Quite a few dinners. White tail.

That's how my brother feeds his family.

Locally they get about $100 to butcher and pack the
whole thing. I'm not up for all that when experts do
it faster and better.

Yea, that's a good price. My brother also them grind up
a bunch for chili.

/BAH

>

 

In article <MPG.2069c69cceeedbff98a1b0@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

In article <etoi3m$8ss_004@s920.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
In article <f340f$45fe9f31$4fe7374$11990@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:
krw wrote:

In article <etm1vk$8qk_002@s869.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...

In article <MPG.2068539f2552666d98a17d@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

In article <b6hsv2thiah5p2a2ja06jlfgc105ra694p@4ax.com>,
MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org says...

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:04:19 -0400, krw <krw@att.bizzzz> Gave us:


Keith


Fuck off, KeithTard.


Aw, now Dimbulb. That's not very nice. All I did is repeat your
stupidity so the folks over in sci.physics could get in on the fun.

All right. Now I got a question. If I wanted to test your
statement, how would I go about doing it? The restriction is
that my kitchen is my lab.


Test what?

A. Dimbulb doesn't believe a gun will fire in space?

If you can't hear it fire, it didn't fire!

B. Dimbulb is an idiot?
C. Dimbulb isn't being very nice?
D. I repeated Dimbulb's stupidity so you folks would get in on
the fun?
E. Gunpowder doesn't need oxygen?

P.S. I don't advise playing with gunpowder in the kitchen. ;-)

Awwwww. You're no fun. It is fine so long as you don't contain
it (restrict expansion).

I thought about that. Is there a way to determine a ratio of
volume vs. mass of gunpowerder so you would have a room left
over (or vital body parts) to cook supper?

Sure (but I'll likely blow it). Take the chemical formula for
gunpowder and find its molecular weight. Then find the volume of the
gas (Ideal Gas Law).

A simplified Black powder reaction (from Wikipedia):

2 KNO3 + S + 3C => K2S + N2 + 3CO2

So gunpowder is 190g/mole. A mole at STP would be 120L (five
molecules times 22.4l/mole). Find the temperature of the fire and
using the ideal gas law (pV=nRT) one can find the volume of the gas.

Hmm, looks low. Musta flunked first semester chemistry.

Thanks . I just discovered that I've forgotten all of this
stuff.

/BAH

 

In article <2a614$460283f9$4fe7109$10420@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

The answers we've seen over the months seem to me in
retrospect to have been rather linear with a lot of
semi-concealed "they're just like us" worldview. With
that premise being wrong, all that follows is as well.

hmmm...I don't think that is the key but it is an important
ingredient.

It is the starting point for understanding. IMO if
someone doesn't "get" this, they don't have any chance
at all.

Sure. I'm working on the part that comes before the desire
to understand appears. This seems to be the affliction
of a great number of people...or I've just begun noticing :-(.

Dammit, we don't even appreciate the difference between
the Russian mind (semi-oriental) and ours. The US and the
CIA have, for many decades, been accused of all sorts of
underhanded stuff. Still, no one has tied together
anything like the recent anti-leader dieoffs we can
clearly see happening. Factually we consider the Russians
"just like us" and clearly they're not.

I've done some reading to try to figure out their mindset because
part of the Middle East mess invoved that mindset. I'm currently
reading a book about a kibbutz; I was floored because I did not
know that USSR was used as a model and admired very much in
the beginnings of the social experiment. I had not figured out
the ramifications of USSR "supporting" Israel in the beginning.

Until Israel became part of the cold war gambits.

I've done some reading about that. The time I'm reading about is
in the 1950s. And it doesn't help that the author is both male
and seems to be enthralled with the socialist concept, and a
city slicker. For instance, he seems to think that their work
day from 6ish to 17:30 was a long day for farm work. He should
have visited some US farms.

What doesn't make sense is that these people admired the Russian
philosophy. If some of the group came from Poland, or talked
to people from Poland and/or Russia, I don't see how they
could admire Stalin.

The middle eastern
mindset is still another sort of critter yet.

So far it seems like there is a mish-mash of cultures
there. Nazism is still an influence, too.

The operative word is primitive.

Is that the word for it?

Consider the importance
of symbolism and ritual in German Nazism in its day.

I am amazed at that kind of stuff.

I've personally known some Russians, and they were very
nice. But where power, money, and their natural habitat
are concerned, things are rather different.

In my small observances, it was an honorable thing to do
cheating.

When you get a chance, read Gogol's "Dead Souls" which
is precisely on point.

OK. I've got it on my long list. And I've got your recommendation
written down, Mati.

I'm not going to explain this one very well. I suspect
this kind of behavior is a result of totalitarianism.

There's a popular line of reasoning that holds that there's
nothing wrong with violating laws and morality so long as
you don't get caught. It is universal across all cultural
systems. It could be that totalitarianism fosters more of
this conduct than other systems. The greater the risk the
greater the rewards?

I consider it a function of basic survival. It you don't
cheat, you don't get basic things such as food, plumbing,
and clothes. I don't know about water. When we spent
a few hours in Leningrad, I wanted to buy a scifi book.
(JMF wouldn't let me so I didn't get it.) In order to buy
the thing I had to stand in three lines. One for permission
to buy the book; one for getting the money to buy the book
(I didn't understand this one); one for actually buying the
book. This was in a store the size of my living room which
8'x12'. Each line had a different person. So there were three
women sitting there doing stuff just for the purpose of selling
one book.

Then we went to an "approved" black market. I could buy anything
for a pack of US cigarettes. No permissions were required and
the currency was anything you had on your person. Even US
dollars were very nice but they preferred the cigarettes.

Now, in that kind of retail climate, the cheating is the only
way to run commerce.

It didn't seem to take a whole lot to herd the Jim Jones
bunch into a situation where ~1000 murder/suicides were
the end of the journey and achieved in the matter of a
few hours at most. One is amused at the thought that it
was socialist/communist/liberal thinking that led to that
debacle, as sad as the outcome was.

It is expected. It seems that most socialist flavored
enterprises seem to devolve into leaving the decisions,
thus all power, to one or a few people. Over time, the
only ones willing to do that work are the ones who have
enough emotional disturbance to believe themselves about
godhood.

Ask your parents about their governor and Michigan's
economy.

<GRIN> I don't have to. Before Dad got ill, I always got an
earful. Especially with the fishing and hunting licenses.

At least Massachusetts has an economy to wreck.

Not for long. We now have a Democrat for governor and he's already
spent the budget. The first couple of hundred K was on himself.
I fully expect the 2-1/2 to become a fond memory (property tax limit),
the income tax rate to back up to Dukakis levels. We just lost
the only Democrat leader who had some sense of fiscal responsibility.
On top of that, we are blatantly told that we have to buy medical
insurance. They are turning this place into a Nazi camp very quickly.
I expect Michigan's governor to take lessons from ours.

I don't see societal power and control as linear functions.
I do see them as recursive, yes, with significant potential
for runaway positive feedback (for the electronics design
bunch to chew on.)

I think this is what happens. Whenever there is a conundrum
(and this includes a societal crisis), people who have this
kind of thinking latch on to the most minor detail that is
false. Then their coping ability will insist that the detail
be proved true before accepting the reality of the danger
the crisis has created.

So far, the only way to unlatch the notion is to give a direct
order and ignore the complaints and protests, etc.

I have a personal distaste for Lisa Ling despite the fact
that in recent years she's been doing some passable work.

One of her National Geo channel pieces aired in the past
few days. It had to do with a team that went to North Korea
to do en masse cataract surgery. The target was 1000 people
in 10 days.

When the people had their sight restored they bowed to
pictures of their Great Leader and thanked him for restoring
their sight. The medical team and all their volunteerism
meant squat.

Yes. Automatons. I wonder what is really going on underneath.
I've also been reading think tanks' foreign policy books about
areas; they were written around 1980. Some of them were about
both Koreas. North Korea had three soldiers guarding every
rice farmer. There's no way a acre of picking could feed the
"labor" it took to grow that rice. It's no wonder we get
rumors of food shortages. There has to be thousands of
acres that have gone fallow.

This is no different from the blind adherence to any other
religion. In the North Korean instance, one form of blind
allegiance continued. OTOH I don't think they have much
choice to do otherwise in North Korea.

Father to son and the son must have inherited all the handlers.

I sure hope you understand what I wrote the way I meant to write
it because days of thinking hasn't produced a better set of
English ASCII.

Kind of you. Thanks.

One method to avoid this latching is to figure the datum
that will cause the concrete mindsetting and then never
mention it. However, this may be as futile as expecting
all kitchen dishes to remain clean for 24 hours.

Purity ain't all that it is cracked up to be.

I know.

"Moderation in all things."

I hate that one. . The next saying usually is: "Get a life."

/BAH

 

In article <sazMh.19$25.108@news.uchicago.edu>,
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

In article <2a614$460283f9$4fe7109$10420@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> writes:
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:
snip

When you get a chance, read Gogol's "Dead Souls" which
is precisely on point.

I'll second this recommendation. Can add to it Gogol's "Revisor"
(translated to English as "Inspector General", I think).

Noted. Thanks. ISTR that there was a book by an author of that
name at the dump. I can't remember if I rescued it or left it.
I'm dumping garbage today and I'll look for the author's name.

I'm not going to explain this one very well. I suspect
this kind of behavior is a result of totalitarianism.

There's a popular line of reasoning that holds that there's
nothing wrong with violating laws and morality so long as
you don't get caught. It is universal across all cultural
systems. It could be that totalitarianism fosters more of
this conduct than other systems. The greater the risk the
greater the rewards?

It is rather "no risk, no chance of reward". These are systems where
the general sense is that honest work will get you precisely nowhere.
Advancement is only possible by playing the system (knowing connected
people or people who know such people) or tricking it.

Right. And that's why I think no socialist nor "equal for all"
type of economy would ever work long-term.

The Poles had, for hundreds of year, a folk saying to the effect that
"with patience and diligence, people acquire wealth" (it rhymes in
Polish, couldn't make it happen in English). But, after just few
years of Communist rule, in the 50s, a new version of the saying
appeared, as "with patience and diligence, people lose their health".
that pretty much says it.

I think the first commodity to go is food but I don't understand
why. The farm community I'm reading about grows their own food
but the author keeps harping about how poor the meals are and
how there is never enough food. This makes no sense to me...
but I haven't finished the book. He never says what they do
with the food. His income figures imply not much is sold.

I have to assume that even though he lived among them, he
overlooked important details that only a farmer would notice
and be missed by anybody who came from a middle class town
background.

Oh...I assumed he was telling the truth and was talking about
a real kibbutz even though he says he is hiding the real identity.

Thanks. Writing this post up made me look in the mirror and see
that pesky naive hat I was wearing.

/BAH

 

In article <eu0a9t$8qk_001@s798.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

In article <2a614$460283f9$4fe7109$10420@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

The answers we've seen over the months seem to me in
retrospect to have been rather linear with a lot of
semi-concealed "they're just like us" worldview. With
that premise being wrong, all that follows is as well.

hmmm...I don't think that is the key but it is an important
ingredient.

It is the starting point for understanding. IMO if
someone doesn't "get" this, they don't have any chance
at all.

Sure. I'm working on the part that comes before the desire
to understand appears. This seems to be the affliction
of a great number of people...or I've just begun noticing :-(.

Dammit, we don't even appreciate the difference between
the Russian mind (semi-oriental) and ours. The US and the
CIA have, for many decades, been accused of all sorts of
underhanded stuff. Still, no one has tied together
anything like the recent anti-leader dieoffs we can
clearly see happening. Factually we consider the Russians
"just like us" and clearly they're not.

I've done some reading to try to figure out their mindset because
part of the Middle East mess invoved that mindset. I'm currently
reading a book about a kibbutz; I was floored because I did not
know that USSR was used as a model and admired very much in
the beginnings of the social experiment. I had not figured out
the ramifications of USSR "supporting" Israel in the beginning.

Until Israel became part of the cold war gambits.

I've done some reading about that. The time I'm reading about is
in the 1950s. And it doesn't help that the author is both male
and seems to be enthralled with the socialist concept, and a
city slicker. For instance, he seems to think that their work
day from 6ish to 17:30 was a long day for farm work. He should
have visited some US farms.

What doesn't make sense is that these people admired the Russian
philosophy. If some of the group came from Poland, or talked
to people from Poland and/or Russia, I don't see how they
could admire Stalin.

You've a "time frame failure" here. These people came from Poland

during the 20 and 30s. Way before 1945 and the Russian occupation of
Poland. It was very common for young people from all places that
didn't get a direct taste of Soviet rule to admire Stalin at that
time. Especially young people from the inteligentsia.

The middle eastern
mindset is still another sort of critter yet.

So far it seems like there is a mish-mash of cultures
there. Nazism is still an influence, too.

The operative word is primitive.

Is that the word for it?

Consider the importance
of symbolism and ritual in German Nazism in its day.

I am amazed at that kind of stuff.


I've personally known some Russians, and they were very
nice. But where power, money, and their natural habitat
are concerned, things are rather different.

In my small observances, it was an honorable thing to do
cheating.

When you get a chance, read Gogol's "Dead Souls" which
is precisely on point.

OK. I've got it on my long list. And I've got your recommendation
written down, Mati.



I'm not going to explain this one very well. I suspect
this kind of behavior is a result of totalitarianism.

There's a popular line of reasoning that holds that there's
nothing wrong with violating laws and morality so long as
you don't get caught. It is universal across all cultural
systems. It could be that totalitarianism fosters more of
this conduct than other systems. The greater the risk the
greater the rewards?

I consider it a function of basic survival. It you don't
cheat, you don't get basic things such as food, plumbing,
and clothes.

Exactly.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"

 

In article <j5UMh.26$25.102@news.uchicago.edu>,
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

In article <eu0a9t$8qk_001@s798.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
In article <2a614$460283f9$4fe7109$10420@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <1ae0f$45f817db$4fe71d4$28690@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
"nonsense@unsettled.com" <nonsense@unsettled.com> wrote:

The answers we've seen over the months seem to me in
retrospect to have been rather linear with a lot of
semi-concealed "they're just like us" worldview. With
that premise being wrong, all that follows is as well.

hmmm...I don't think that is the key but it is an important
ingredient.

It is the starting point for understanding. IMO if
someone doesn't "get" this, they don't have any chance
at all.

Sure. I'm working on the part that comes before the desire
to understand appears. This seems to be the affliction
of a great number of people...or I've just begun noticing :-(.

Dammit, we don't even appreciate the difference between
the Russian mind (semi-oriental) and ours. The US and the
CIA have, for many decades, been accused of all sorts of
underhanded stuff. Still, no one has tied together
anything like the recent anti-leader dieoffs we can
clearly see happening. Factually we consider the Russians
"just like us" and clearly they're not.

I've done some reading to try to figure out their mindset because
part of the Middle East mess invoved that mindset. I'm currently
reading a book about a kibbutz; I was floored because I did not
know that USSR was used as a model and admired very much in
the beginnings of the social experiment. I had not figured out
the ramifications of USSR "supporting" Israel in the beginning.

Until Israel became part of the cold war gambits.

I've done some reading about that. The time I'm reading about is
in the 1950s. And it doesn't help that the author is both male
and seems to be enthralled with the socialist concept, and a
city slicker. For instance, he seems to think that their work
day from 6ish to 17:30 was a long day for farm work. He should
have visited some US farms.

What doesn't make sense is that these people admired the Russian
philosophy. If some of the group came from Poland, or talked
to people from Poland and/or Russia, I don't see how they
could admire Stalin.

You've a "time frame failure" here.

I tried not to commit that error.

These people came from Poland
during the 20 and 30s.

Right.

Way before 1945 and the Russian occupation of
Poland. It was very common for young people from all places that
didn't get a direct taste of Soviet rule to admire Stalin at that
time. Especially young people from the inteligentsia.

The author spent 9 months on this kibbutz in the early 1950s.
One of their holidays was still dedicated to Stalin and Lenin.
The visiting work groups had to have some people from Poland
who had first hand experience with Stalin's heavy hand.
I suppose habit is difficult to change. If a society bases its
tenets on humans rather than invisible gods, acknowledging
that the humans are nasty and wrong would destroy the coherence
of the group.

<snip>

I consider it a function of basic survival. It you don't
cheat, you don't get basic things such as food, plumbing,
and clothes.

Exactly.

What I can't figure out is how do one keep one's kids from
saying stuff when they're young. Or would politics and
criticism not even be mentioned in the home?

I went to the library yesterday to try to find the two Gogol
books. I did rescue a Gogol book, but it's short stories.
The only ones I could find was only available as fucking e-books.
I now know why they've been dumping all the paper books. Two
weeks' ago I rescued astronomy and ornithology books. The
week before that was textiles and crafts and some ecology
and a lot of practical wiring and fixing books.
This country is insane.


/BAH