Jihad needs scientists

Oct 2, 2006

"JoeBloe" <joebloe@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:sc22i2dfika4k0qnfm276sjginjg70igg6@4ax.com...

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:08:21 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> Gave us:

JoeBloe wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 02:23:00 GMT, "Homer J Simpson" Gave us:
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote

But it isn't a war. It is a problem for a police force that requires
international cooperation, something the US is notoriously unable or
unwilling to be involved in.

I don't understand those words, "international cooperation." Where
might that be found?

Outside of the USA.

The Unite States gives away billions of dollars a year in aid

The USA's aid donations are well below that of many other Western nations
who
aren't even as rich !

Furthermore, it's often accompanied by silly 'conditions'.

The USA recently notably refused to co-operate in an internationally
inspired
aid plan to bring safe drinking water to communities worlwide.

The USA should actually hang its head in shame.

Why anyone reads any of this idiot's troll trash is beyond me.

Hey donkey boy... Fuck off, liar.

Uhh...if you're going to insult him, curse at him, and call him a liar,
you're going to have to pony up some facts to support it. Please point out
one factual inaccuracy in his posts. I'm a US citizen, and I have a as much
respect for my country as anybody, but it doesn't go so far as to ignoring
the blemishes and spewing hatred at somebody who does point them out. If
you really love your country, you should want to know what's wrong with it,
so that you can work to make it better. Ignoring the blemishes, which is
what most of the Joe Sixpack 'Murc'n rednecks like yourself choose to do,
just leads to more bad behavior, and the election of pseudopatriots like the
Shrub...twice.

Eric Lucas

Eeyore · Oct 2, 2006

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:17:53 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

" In the United States, popular estimates of spending on aid are often highly
inflated. Surveys show that people typically think 15-20% of the federal budget is
spent on aid[1]; the real number is closer to 1%[2]. In absolute terms, the
$15-20bn of aid compares with $50bn spent annually on the war on drugs and $500bn
spent on the military...........

Reviewing Latin American Aid, Martha Huggins suggested in 1998 that the more
foreign police aid given [by the US], the more brutal and less democratic the
police institutions and their governments become.

The United States is the world's largest contributor of ODA in absolute terms
($15.7 billion, 2003), but the *SMALLEST* among developed countries as a
percentage of its GDP (0.14% in 2003). The UN target for development aid is 0.7%
of GDP; currently only five countries (with Norway in the lead with 0.92%) achieve
this." ( my emphasis )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aid

Graham

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

See "side notes on private contributions." Personally, both my wife
and I donate many thousands of dollars to the foreign-aid institutions
we believe in. This year, I will give maybe $20,000 to Doctors Without
Borders.

Medecins sans Frontiers as we prefer here.

You do this no doubt because you are a decent human being. It helps make up for the
lacklustre efforts of your gov't.

How much do you personally donate to things like this?

I don't have to account for it thank you and I certainly don't have the kind of income
that would allow me to donate anything like you do. We do however have a government
that does it on our behalf, not to mention the likes of Oxfam etc... in the 'voluntary
sector' who are normally very fast off the mark when need is high.

Graham

Jim Thompson · Oct 2, 2006

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:44:27 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:47:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 02:33:19 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

The US is not demonizing Islam, at this point. It makes the
distinction between Islam and Islamic extremism.

I can assure you that many Americans don't understand the difference.

How many is "many"? Seven? If "many" means "a significant fraction",
then you are, as usual, inventing anti-American "facts."

The majority who post on Usenet for sure !

It seems to me that the US War on Terror has simply created a new kind of
hostile racism or culture'ism of a sort.

Graham

I read about a recent experiment that was done in the UK. In response
to advertised job openings, good but fake resumes were invented and
sent in, with the only difference that some had English-sounding names
and some had Muslim-sounding names. The response ratio was about 5:1.

Your assignment is to tell us

1. Which group had the lower response and

2. Why?

John

ps: I employ one Muslim engineer, four Hispanic employees, one native
American, four Asians, two lesbians, and zero Englishmen. I suppose
that makes me a racist.

No mad dogs ?

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Eeyore · Oct 2, 2006

lucasea@sbcglobal.net wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote

And burn the UN to the ground.

That might not be a bad idea, but I think on the whole, we do need some sort
of world governing body.

We certainly don't need a *governing* body but we do need one that can apply a
steadying hand and assit toi resolve conflicts without resort to violence.

You may be right, though, the UN model might not
be the right way to go about it.

It's the best we have. Don't knock it too much.

Graham

Eeyore · Oct 2, 2006

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:09:14 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

That's where we pretend we like the French ;-)

Sorry, Jim, but I'm not THAT good at playing pretend.

Don't worry. The French don't much like your kind of Americans either.

Graham

Heck, you can hardly get into a roadside rest area bathroom for the
crowds from the French tour busses. On our way back from Monterey, my
wife had to sit shivering at the Junipera Serra rest stop for that
very reason, waiting out a bus full of female French tourists. If you
go to the top of Twin Peaks in San Francisco, the language you're most
likely to overhear is German.

Stay home! The lines at Peet's Coffee and Joseph Schmidt Chocolate are
long enough already.

The attraction of the falling dollar and rising Euro of course.

Graham

Oct 2, 2006

"Ken Smith" <kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:efr7vg$sb7$2@blue.rahul.net...

In article <2p1Ug.16$45.152@news.uchicago.edu>,
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote:
[....]
Well, here is at least one thing you can say for Al Queda. They are
quite honest, no pretending.

Maybe, they are just more effective liars. If you haven't caught them in
a lie, it doesn't mean there weren't lies they got away with.

The whole idea that they have anything to do with any form of Islam may
well be a lie. They can get lots of cannonfodder from the Muslim world
may be the reason they try to appear Islamist. It may really be about
power and control.

That last sentence is almost certainly right, but it's only a lie if they
know it not to be true. I suspect most of the people involved truly believe
that they are fighting for Muslim ideals.

Eric Lucas

Oct 2, 2006

<mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:fk1Ug.15$45.91@news.uchicago.edu...

In article <TG%Tg.8172$vJ2.42@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,
lucasea@sbcglobal.net> writes:

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:g0%Tg.10$45.93@news.uchicago.edu...
In article <45206C09.31550FBE@hotmail.com>, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
"Homer J Simpson" <nobody@nowhere.com> writes:
"Gordon" <gordonlr@DELETEswbell.net> wrote in message

So you are saying they are NOT better Xtians than everyone
else?

No, I'm saying that this war on terrorism started long before
President Bush and the present Republican administration was
involved in any way.

But it isn't a war.

It is a war. Refusing to recognize it as such will not make it
go
away.

It's not a meaningful war since the 'enemy' isn't an identifiable
entity but a 'view'.

That just makes it a far worse and more dangerous war.

Far more dangerous to us in the West for sure ! It is making Radical
Islamist thinking more popular.

If you think, for a moment, that the popularity of radical Islamic
thinking depends much on what we call it, then you're thinking way too
small.

Hardly.

It depends on our behaviour - actually mainly that of the USA. Recent US
behaviour has made it all that
much more attractive.

As I said, you're thinking way too small. And, too parochial. The
belief that other people are just reacting to what we do, not acting
on their own plans and ideas, is touching, but not anchored in
reality.

Of course it is. Read the reports on the rise in al Qaeda in Iraq and
throughout the middle East, partially as a result of the US invasion. To
paraphrase a very wise man, ignoring the facts doesn't mean they don't
exist.

Islamic extremism has been on the rise for a very long time. Starting
even before WWII. It is a long and continuous process that the West
was mostly oblivious to. It picked up speed significantly after the
first oil crisis, in the 70s, when the amount of oil money flowing to
the Gulf countries greatly increased. It picked speed yet again after
the Iranian revolution. And it keeps growing. That it will pick at
any given moment on the grievance du jour as a recruiting tool, sure,
but its growth is independent of this. You may have noted that 9/11
was way before the invasion of Iraq.

Now, you can find enough stuff published by Al Queda to find what
their real grievance is. Though, of course, oblivion is so much more
pleasant.

Why do you insist on consistently use insults, tacit and expressed, to
denigrate other peoples' valid and educated points of view? It really
lessens your message.

For your information, I'm not oblivious, I just choose to not ignore the
fact that many of the actions that we've taken in regard to the Middle East,
including our undying support of even the worst behavior on the part of
Israel, has made us a target. I'm not in any sense anti-Israel, but any
object observer (of which I am one, not having any religious or ethnic ties
to either Israel or the Muslim world--can you say the same?) would consider
some of the things they do extremely bad behavior on the world scene. *Of
course* our actions are a relatively small part of the picture, and yes, the
terrorists do have the blame for their actions, but like I said, it would be
nice if once in a while, we didn't go out of our way to piss off (and piss
on) the rest of the world.

Eric Lucas

Jim Thompson · Oct 2, 2006

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:57:37 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:09:14 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

That's where we pretend we like the French ;-)

Sorry, Jim, but I'm not THAT good at playing pretend.

Don't worry. The French don't much like your kind of Americans either.

Graham

Heck, you can hardly get into a roadside rest area bathroom for the
crowds from the French tour busses. On our way back from Monterey, my
wife had to sit shivering at the Junipera Serra rest stop for that
very reason, waiting out a bus full of female French tourists. If you
go to the top of Twin Peaks in San Francisco, the language you're most
likely to overhear is German.

Stay home! The lines at Peet's Coffee and Joseph Schmidt Chocolate are
long enough already.

John

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

T Wake · Oct 2, 2006

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:10u0i2tr9n00ujlp648it48s73l3jnof5v@4ax.com...

On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:46:21 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:14:02 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

"Gordon" <gordonlr@DELETEswbell.net> wrote in message
news:00c0i29vn31ejl71pku1d0r1nfaevj6p4i@4ax.com...

So you are saying they are NOT better Xtians than everyone else?

No, I'm saying that this war on terrorism started long before
President Bush and the present Republican administration was
involved in any way.

But it isn't a war. It is a problem for a police force that requires
international cooperation, something the US is notoriously unable or
unwilling to be involved in.

I don't understand those words, "international cooperation." Where
might that be found?

John

That's where we pretend we like the French ;-)

Please... never go that far! There must be some limits!

John Larkin · Oct 2, 2006

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:44:02 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you forgotten that the USA regularly denigrates the UN ?

Hell, *I* regularly denegrate the UN. It's stupid, massively corrupt,
and makes decisions based on majority vote of governments run by
thugs.

John

T Wake · Oct 2, 2006

"JoeBloe" <joebloe@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:4311i2l8pj43dpasfo65k9e4gmp1200doi@4ax.com...

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 23:38:39 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> Gave us:

For thirty years the British were
terrorized by Irish Republicans, it was never called a "war.

Then why did they call themselves the Irish Republican Army (IRA)?
HHHhhhhmmmmmm?

The other responses pretty much sum up any answer I can give. I especially
like the HHHhhhhmmmmmm. It's good. It makes it seem like you are thinking
about things. Well done.

You may want to check out what they were actually called though - the term
provisional, real, official, continuity etc were often used because they
were basically thugs.

The Irish Republican Army pretty much ceased to exist with the creation of
the Free State.

If AQ called themselves the Banana Splits would it be a fruit salad instead
of a war?

John Larkin · Oct 2, 2006

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:13:41 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

In article <4520C734.BF44F5D0@hotmail.com>, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:

There is no such thing as a coherent 'Islamic terrorist' movement, much as the USA would like to have >you
believe it. Much Islamic terrorism isn't even targeted at the West.

There wasn't such thing as a coherent "Axis" in 1939-40. There were
three separate nations, pursuing separate goals, often in
non-coordinated fashion, at times even in a way which was detrimental
to the other Axis members goals.

Your fixation with the history of WW2 is idiotic.

Is ignorance better?

John

Jim Thompson · Oct 2, 2006

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:52:41 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:17:53 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

The United States is the world's largest contributor of ODA in absolute terms
($15.7 billion, 2003), but the *SMALLEST* among developed countries as a
percentage of its GDP (0.14% in 2003). The UN target for development aid is 0.7%
of GDP; currently only five countries (with Norway in the lead with 0.92%) achieve
this." ( my emphasis )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aid

Graham

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

See "side notes on private contributions." Personally, both my wife
and I donate many thousands of dollars to the foreign-aid institutions
we believe in. This year, I will give maybe $20,000 to Doctors Without
Borders.

How much do you personally donate to things like this?

John

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

T Wake · Oct 2, 2006

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45205916.9EE8E163@hotmail.com...

T Wake wrote:

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message

I'll say again, it is a war, refusing to recognize it as such will not
make it go away.

I disagree. It is not a war. This is not a case of "refusing to recognise
it
as such." Wars are wars. Soldiers are notoriously bad at fighting
terrorism.
Terrorists are criminals.

Indeed. And no War on Crime has ever been won.

Heading down the road of philosophical arguments now, but would it be
possible to "win" a war on crime? Like all the "War on ..." sound bites, how
can they ever be won?

John Larkin · Oct 2, 2006

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:37:29 GMT, mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

In article <4520DB95.FA98E674@hotmail.com>, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:

mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:

In article <4520D844.DCF01BAD@hotmail.com>, Eeyore writes:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:

There is no such thing as a coherent 'Islamic terrorist' movement, much as the USA would like to >> >have
you believe it. Much Islamic terrorism isn't even targeted at the West.

There wasn't such thing as a coherent "Axis" in 1939-40. There were
three separate nations, pursuing separate goals, often in
non-coordinated fashion, at times even in a way which was detrimental
to the other Axis members goals.

Your fixation with the history of WW2 is idiotic.

I'll take this for a tacit admition that you've no better answer.

The history of WW2 has nothing useful to offer in the current context. In fact it's wholly misleading to use it as
any kind of template.

Aha. And this is based on, well, on your say so. Well, since I
already determined to my satisfaction what you're, don't expect me to
put to much of a weight on you opinions.

Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"

Graham has a pathological and mostly irrational hatred of America, and
makes up things to support that need. So naturally he doesn't like to
be reminded about stuff like WWII or the Cold War. He believes that
the UK and Russia defeated Germany with little need for US assistance.

John

Ken Smith · Oct 2, 2006

In article <XxYTg.5$45.149@news.uchicago.edu>,
<mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote:
[....]

Criminals are people who are motivated by self interest and can be
deterred by sufficiently reducing the chance of profit.

No, criminals are people who commit crimes. Their have been some who have
done so for nonprofit and in a few cases nonselfish reasons. They are
still none the less criminals. Consider the example of someone who gives
LSD to minors because it "expands their mind". Such a person is still a
criminal.

And, they're
parasites on the society, not trying to destroy it, just milk it.

They may in many cases really be trying to destroy it. Simply "milking
it" may not be their aim at all. They may see themselves as trying to
reform it or improve it.

The
Islamic terrorists aim at destruction of the western society and
you're not going to deter them because there is no deterring people
who already decided that they don't care whether they live or die.

Actually that is not true. Deterring people is about placing a treat
against what they value. You may be able to deter many of them with the
threat that if there is another attack, we will nuke Meca.

They also very likely would fear being held in prison for life.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

Eeyore · Oct 2, 2006

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:57:37 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:09:14 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:

That's where we pretend we like the French ;-)

Sorry, Jim, but I'm not THAT good at playing pretend.

Don't worry. The French don't much like your kind of Americans either.

Graham

Heck, you can hardly get into a roadside rest area bathroom for the
crowds from the French tour busses. On our way back from Monterey, my
wife had to sit shivering at the Junipera Serra rest stop for that
very reason, waiting out a bus full of female French tourists. If you
go to the top of Twin Peaks in San Francisco, the language you're most
likely to overhear is German.

Stay home! The lines at Peet's Coffee and Joseph Schmidt Chocolate are
long enough already.

John

I've seen very few French tourists here in AZ... probably because
they'd be shunned ;-)

What is there for them to see ?

Graham

Oct 2, 2006

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45212B4A.FC3E541E@hotmail.com...

lucasea@sbcglobal.net wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote

And burn the UN to the ground.

That might not be a bad idea, but I think on the whole, we do need some
sort
of world governing body.

We certainly don't need a *governing* body but we do need one that can
apply a
steadying hand and assit toi resolve conflicts without resort to violence.

So you don't think the world needs a governing body with clout...have you
heard what Bush has been trying to do to the Geneva Convention? Remember
Bush's cowboy invasion of Iraq against the will of almost the entire world
(and as I understand it, against the will of more than half of the residents
of the only major country that chose to go along with him)? Have you heard
what Rice is trying to foment in Iran? Who's going to stop them? Obviously
not the UN.

You may be right, though, the UN model might not
be the right way to go about it.

It's the best we have. Don't knock it too much.

Oh, I'm not. However, you might want to consider the parallel between your
statement, and that of most of Joe-Sixpack in the US, whose point of view is
that "George Bush is the best president we have, so don't knock him too
much." It can't hurt to criticize a body that's not especially doing an
effective job. That's the only way that change happens.

Eric Lucas

Eeyore · Oct 2, 2006

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:13:41 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
In article <4520C734.BF44F5D0@hotmail.com>, Eeyore writes:

There is no such thing as a coherent 'Islamic terrorist' movement, much as the USA would like to have >you
believe it. Much Islamic terrorism isn't even targeted at the West.

There wasn't such thing as a coherent "Axis" in 1939-40. There were
three separate nations, pursuing separate goals, often in
non-coordinated fashion, at times even in a way which was detrimental
to the other Axis members goals.

Your fixation with the history of WW2 is idiotic.

Is ignorance better?

It simply has zero relevance to the issue at hand. Mind you, just to put your fevered American minds at rest,
should European Islam be stupid enough to get 'nasty' expect another 'Kristallnacht' with Muslims being
progromised.

Graham

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