Is this the future?

[bristan]

Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short blackouts
occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of Sydney. I
happened to have a power meter connected at the time and watched as the
voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which level the power went
off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The voltage went back to 230 or
so then the process repeated . This went on for about half an hour. I
switched off what I could but it is a pain having to reset all the clocks,
redate the phone etc. The fridges weren't, to happy about it either. Non
peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all the
changes in the electricity arrangements!

 

[John Tserkezis]

bristan wrote:

Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short
blackouts occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of
Sydney. I happened to have a power meter connected at the time and
watched as the voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which
level the power went off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The
voltage went back to 230 or so then the process repeated . This went on
for about half an hour.

Selective blackouts are the normal response to overloading like that.

Everyone cranks up their aircons at the same time, grid can't keep up,
so it bombs a segment.
It comes back online after awhile, assuming the dickhead users would
have turned off a few things, and the process starts over again.

When there is more load than you can supply, the only option is to cut
power.

I switched off what I could but it is a pain
having to reset all the clocks, redate the phone etc.

This is a no-excuse cheap-arse way to make an appliance. Any way to
save a cent.

The fridges weren't, to happy about it either.

There are control boxes that sense brown or blackouts, and forcibly
keep the fridge off for some time before trying again. If you power up
an the wrong moment in the gas transition phase, it can damage the fridge.

Non peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all
the changes in the electricity arrangements!

Depends where you are. I'm in the thick of Sydney, so the likelyhood
of power issues is less, but it's a growing problem.

Adelaide has this issue, and mainly because aircons have put a very
short high load on the grid. To fix it, you need additional power
generation plants to keep up to the demand.
They have more social problem with power. Population has been really
slow to grow, or stable, so new base power stations are out of the question.

Problem with catering for peak demand is, fourfold:

Peak power generation is expensive, because power needs to be ramped
up and down rapidly, coal (cheap) can't be used.
Peak power, because of its very intermittent usage, as well as being
able to ramp power up and down rapidly, to have to be able to turn it
off too. This leaves only a few options as far as generation goes.
Of all those options left, all are frightfully expensive, AND are not
well suited to huge amounts of power - we're not talking a few
households here, it's an entire city, so solar and wind is out.

So you could either resolve all those issues, or, you can tell your
idiot users to not use their aircons all at the same bloody time.

Which do you think is easier?
--
Only consume alcohol on days ending in Y!

 

[John Tserkezis]

kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Realistically, to run modern fluro/LED lighting for a couple of hours,
you probably wouldn't need a really massive battery, but do this
times 100,000 homes, it would make a big difference.

Lighting accounts for a small portion of power usage, that's why isn't
the problem. Why do you think the government's incandescent ban was such
a screwup? Not only would it not make a significant different, it will
cost end users more.

If they aren't already, they could use ripple control to cut off
things like hot water systems,

They already do that now.

pool filters,

Again, some do that now, not only controlling the time of day of the
runtime, the duration as well to maximise work with least energy.

possibly refrigerators for a short period. (Kill all the fridges connected to a particular
substation for 15 min or so - then turn them off and turn off the next
suburb and so on)Maybe have a thermostat fitted that detects if the
temp gets so dangerously high that a health hazard could exist - and
it will switch the power back on.

There would be a HUGE liability issue if that was done. But
refrigeration isn't the problem either. It disappears into the base
load, so it not a peak issue.

Could also be programmed to lower
the temp of the fridge to less than normal in advance of the "peak
period", so it can stay off for longer at peak times without things
spoiling ?

This is already done with large systems to save power, but it has
nothing to do with peak intervals, it's only to save money to the
company running the fridges. Again, its use averages out to continuous
over 24 hours (along with everyone else) so there is no peak/off peak usage.

Make your next stove gas

Are *YOU* going to be the one who tells people when they can and can't
cook dinner?

or have the BBQ handy for when this sort of thing happens.

So now your telling people not only WHEN to cook, but HOW to cook?

As the saying goes: Good luck with that.
--
Subvert the dominant paradigm!

 

[kreed]

On Nov 25, 10:33 am, John Tserkezis
<j...@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

bristan wrote:
Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short
blackouts occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of
Sydney. I happened to have a power meter connected at the time and
watched as the voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which
level the power went off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The
voltage went back to 230 or so then the process repeated . This went on
for about half an hour.

  Selective blackouts are the normal response to overloading like that.

  Everyone cranks up their aircons at the same time, grid can't keep up,
so it bombs a segment.
  It comes back online after awhile, assuming the dickhead users would
have turned off a few things, and the process starts over again.

  When there is more load than you can supply, the only option is to cut
power.

I switched off what I could but it is a pain
having to reset all the clocks, redate the phone etc.

  This is a no-excuse cheap-arse way to make an appliance.  Any way to
save a cent.

The fridges weren't, to happy about it either.

  There are control boxes that sense brown or blackouts, and forcibly
keep the fridge off for some time before trying again.  If you power up
an the wrong moment in the gas transition phase, it can damage the fridge..

Non peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all
the changes in the electricity arrangements!

  Depends where you are.  I'm in the thick of Sydney, so the likelyhood
of power issues is less, but it's a growing problem.

  Adelaide has this issue, and mainly because aircons have put a very
short high load on the grid.  To fix it, you need additional power
generation plants to keep up to the demand.
  They have more social problem with power.  Population has been really
slow to grow, or stable, so new base power stations are out of the question.

  Problem with catering for peak demand is, fourfold:

  Peak power generation is expensive, because power needs to be ramped
up and down rapidly, coal (cheap) can't be used.
  Peak power, because of its very intermittent usage, as well as being
able to ramp power up and down rapidly, to have to be able to turn it
off too.  This leaves only a few options as far as generation goes.
  Of all those options left, all are frightfully expensive, AND are not
well suited to huge amounts of power - we're not talking a few
households here, it's an entire city, so solar and wind is out.

  So you could either resolve all those issues, or, you can tell your
idiot users to not use their aircons all at the same bloody time.

  Which do you think is easier?  
--
Only consume alcohol on days ending in Y!

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Realistically, to run modern fluro/LED lighting for a couple of hours,
you probably wouldn't need a really massive battery, but do this
times 100,000 homes, it would make a big difference.

If they aren't already, they could use ripple control to cut off
things like hot water systems, pool filters, possibly refrigerators
for a short period. (Kill all the fridges connected to a particular
substation for 15 min or so - then turn them off and turn off the next
suburb and so on) Maybe have a thermostat fitted that detects if the
temp gets so dangerously high that a health hazard could exist - and
it will switch the power back on. Could also be programmed to lower
the temp of the fridge to less than normal in advance of the "peak
period", so it can stay off for longer at peak times without things
spoiling ?


Make your next stove gas, or have the BBQ handy for when this sort of
thing happens.

 

[terryc]

John Tserkezis wrote:

kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 11/25/2011 11:30 PM, terryc wrote:

John Tserkezis wrote:
kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

Whats wrong with the supplier providing what they sell ??
Why should consumers have to consider all these measures because the
supply is inadequate ??

Rheilly P

 

[kreed]

On Nov 26, 8:21 am, Rheilly Phoull <rhei...@bigslong.com> wrote:

On 11/25/2011 11:30 PM, terryc wrote:

John Tserkezis wrote:
kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

Whats wrong with the supplier providing what they sell ??
Why should consumers have to consider all these measures because the
supply is inadequate ??

Rheilly P

I agree with you, but we know that under the current regime in
Canberra, and states privatising power, that the problems will just
continue and worsen. The public (who are incredibly gullible) must
bear a lot of the blame for this as for years have happily bought into
environmental and other frauds, and have not been vigilant in this, or
in choosing and holding to account their state and federal
governments, voted over and over for fuckheads, state govt (QLD at
least) we have had the most incompetent and backward government in
living memory as far as infrastructure is concerned and from what I
have read in the news over time NSW hasnt been much better.

These problems with the power will not be fixed in the short term, and
are likely to only get worse and worse - until we start getting a
program to build more power stations to fix the problem, and even if
this were to start tomorrow, it would take a long time for them to
come on line.

This is typical of countries/states that are in serious decline or
collapse, the first thing that goes is reliable electricity according
to a guy I worked with who had lived and worked over the years in a
lot of these places when they ran into trouble. This of course wrecks
the economy further, as manufacturing and business cannot function
properly without reliable power, not to mention transport, where
electric trains stop, you cannot refuel cars, and traffic lights dont
work.


As to the other posters:


John Tserkezis

Im not dictating anything, im suggesting these things voluntarily as a
way for the average person to get around the problem and to try and
live a normal life without the hassles. As for gas stoves, it doesnt
matter what the authorites do with the power, as long as your gas
cylinder is full, you can cook either on your gas stove or BBQ. Gas
for cooking is a better alternative than running a generator for an
electric stove, and as long as you can get gas refills or exchanges
locally, there will be no problems.


Fot this reason, in Eastern Europe, you can buy combination gas/
electric stoves (their gas is piped in and is also unreliable like the
electricity, though usually both don't go out at the same time) and
since we seem to want to live that way here, maybe this will be a
future product someone could market here when things get worse with
the power

 

[kreed]

On Nov 25, 10:36 pm, John Tserkezis
<j...@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

kreed wrote:
Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar.  Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

  Really?  Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Realistically, to run modern fluro/LED lighting for a couple of hours,
you probably wouldn't need a really massive battery, but do this
times 100,000 homes, it would make a big difference.

  Lighting accounts for a small portion of power usage, that's why isn't
the problem. Why do you think the government's incandescent ban was such
a screwup?  Not only would it not make a significant different, it will
cost end users more.

If they aren't already, they could use ripple control to cut off
things like hot water systems,

  They already do that now.

pool filters,

  Again, some do that now, not only controlling the time of day of the
runtime, the duration as well to maximise work with least energy.

possibly refrigerators for a short period.  (Kill all the fridges connected to a particular
substation for 15 min or so - then turn them off and turn off the next
suburb and so on)Maybe have a thermostat fitted that detects if the
temp gets so dangerously high that a health hazard could exist - and
it will switch the power back on.

  There would be a HUGE liability issue if that was done.  But
refrigeration isn't the problem either. It  disappears into the base
load, so it not a peak issue.

 Could also be programmed to lower
the temp of the fridge to less than normal in advance of the "peak
period", so it can stay off for longer at peak times without things
spoiling ?

  This is already done with large systems to save power, but it has
nothing to do with peak intervals, it's only to save money to the
company running the fridges.  Again, its use averages out to continuous
over 24 hours (along with everyone else) so there is no peak/off peak usage.

Make your next stove gas

  Are *YOU* going to be the one who tells people when they can and can't
cook dinner?

or have the BBQ handy for when this sort of thing happens.

  So now your telling people not only WHEN to cook, but HOW to cook?

Not telling anyone WHEN or how to cook, it seems the power authority
is already doing this, by not providing unreliable power

  As the saying goes:  Good luck with that.
--
Subvert the dominant paradigm!

 

[Adrian Jansen]

On 25/11/2011 10:33 AM, John Tserkezis wrote:

bristan wrote:
Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short
blackouts occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of
Sydney. I happened to have a power meter connected at the time and
watched as the voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which
level the power went off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The
voltage went back to 230 or so then the process repeated . This went on
for about half an hour.

Selective blackouts are the normal response to overloading like that.

Everyone cranks up their aircons at the same time, grid can't keep up,
so it bombs a segment.
It comes back online after awhile, assuming the dickhead users would
have turned off a few things, and the process starts over again.

When there is more load than you can supply, the only option is to cut
power.

I switched off what I could but it is a pain
having to reset all the clocks, redate the phone etc.

This is a no-excuse cheap-arse way to make an appliance. Any way to save
a cent.

The fridges weren't, to happy about it either.

There are control boxes that sense brown or blackouts, and forcibly keep
the fridge off for some time before trying again. If you power up an the
wrong moment in the gas transition phase, it can damage the fridge.

Non peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all
the changes in the electricity arrangements!

Depends where you are. I'm in the thick of Sydney, so the likelyhood of
power issues is less, but it's a growing problem.

Adelaide has this issue, and mainly because aircons have put a very
short high load on the grid. To fix it, you need additional power
generation plants to keep up to the demand.
They have more social problem with power. Population has been really
slow to grow, or stable, so new base power stations are out of the
question.

Problem with catering for peak demand is, fourfold:

Peak power generation is expensive, because power needs to be ramped up
and down rapidly, coal (cheap) can't be used.
Peak power, because of its very intermittent usage, as well as being
able to ramp power up and down rapidly, to have to be able to turn it
off too. This leaves only a few options as far as generation goes.
Of all those options left, all are frightfully expensive, AND are not
well suited to huge amounts of power - we're not talking a few
households here, it's an entire city, so solar and wind is out.

So you could either resolve all those issues, or, you can tell your
idiot users to not use their aircons all at the same bloody time.

Which do you think is easier?

Less consumers = less demand. Easy.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

 

[terryc]

Rheilly Phoull wrote:

On 11/25/2011 11:30 PM, terryc wrote:
John Tserkezis wrote:
kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

Whats wrong with the supplier providing what they sell ??

Shit happens. Some people need power available at certain times, so hey
have to take precautionary measures.

Why should consumers have to consider all these measures because the
supply is inadequate ??

It is about the only alternative. There are others, but just as expensive.

 

[terryc]

kreed wrote:

I agree with you, but we know that under the current regime in
Canberra,

Has SFA to do with it.

 

[terryc]

kreed wrote:

by not providing unreliable power

Oh, I thought that was what they did do. <vbg>

 

[kreed]

On Nov 26, 11:19 pm, terryc <newsninespam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:

kreed wrote:
by not providing unreliable power

Oh, I thought that was what they did do. <vbg

 

[kreed]

On Nov 26, 11:18 pm, terryc <newsninespam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:

kreed wrote:

I agree with you, but we know that under the current regime in
Canberra,

Has SFA to do with it.

The carbon rubbish would have a LOT to do with it.

 

[terryc]

kreed wrote:

On Nov 26, 11:18 pm, terryc <newsninespam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:
kreed wrote:

I agree with you, but we know that under the current regime in
Canberra,
Has SFA to do with it.

The carbon rubbish would have a LOT to do with it.

Maybe. All the current/past increases have nothing to do with it either.
all due to mismanagement by state governments of both persuasions.

 

[John Tserkezis]

kreed wrote:

So now your telling people not only WHEN to cook, but HOW to cook?

Not telling anyone WHEN or how to cook, it seems the power authority
is already doing this, by not providing unreliable power

Only when you sign up for a Smart Meter deal that changes the tariff
over different times of day.
Basically, they charge cheap overnight, and gouge you during the day.

Sounds good until you realise that cooking on your electric stove is
only really feasible when you're awake - during the day.
But you can "fix" that with gas - and expect that first installation
fee to dig up the ground to cost you a mint.
And there's the washing - but you can stay up and do that - who needs
sleep anyway.
And of course, expect to be sweating during your sleep time, in the
middle of the fucking day, now that you've shifted your hours to suit THEM.
And only a minor point that your boss wants you there 9-5.
Probably just as well you're saving $10 a year now that you don't have
a job anymore...

Reliability is the LEAST of your worries.
--
Was it as good for you, as it was for me?

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 11/26/2011 9:17 PM, terryc wrote:

Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 11/25/2011 11:30 PM, terryc wrote:
John Tserkezis wrote:
kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

Whats wrong with the supplier providing what they sell ??

Shit happens. Some people need power available at certain times, so hey
have to take precautionary measures.

Why should consumers have to consider all these measures because the
supply is inadequate ??

It is about the only alternative. There are others, but just as expensive.

Bullshit, if I am willing to pay for a product then I expect to get it.
If the providers want to sell me stuff I don't expect to have to see if
they can provide it.

 

[kreed]

On Nov 27, 4:56 pm, terryc <newsninespam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:

kreed wrote:
On Nov 26, 11:18 pm, terryc <newsninespam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:
kreed wrote:

I agree with you, but we know that under the current regime in
Canberra,
Has SFA to do with it.
The carbon rubbish would have a LOT to do with it.

Maybe. All the current/past increases have nothing to do with it either.
all due to mismanagement by state governments of both persuasions.

While you have that shit hanging over your head for the last decade or
so, its not been practical to start a major project like power
stations etc when you don't know where it will be at.

If indeed the libs do the right thing and scrap this tax, then that is
another thing that has to be resolved before anything can be done. I
would love to see those independents who were paid off for their vote
be stripped of this money and jailed for bribery and fraud, but I
doubt it would happen. Then again we saw it with Nuttall - so we can
live in hope.

 

[kreed]

On Nov 27, 9:06 pm, Rheilly Phoull <rhei...@bigslong.com> wrote:

On 11/26/2011 9:17 PM, terryc wrote:



Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 11/25/2011 11:30 PM, terryc wrote:
John Tserkezis wrote:
kreed wrote:

Giant UPS, with a battery bank made out of those massive telephone
exchange batteries or similar. Let it recharge overnight on off-peak
power.

Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?

Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.

Whats wrong with the supplier providing what they sell ??

Shit happens. Some people need power available at certain times, so hey
have to take precautionary measures.

Why should consumers have to consider all these measures because the
supply is inadequate ??

It is about the only alternative. There are others, but just as expensive.

Bullshit, if I am willing to pay for a product then I expect to get it.
If the providers want to sell me stuff I don't expect to have to see if
they can provide it.

I see your point, but at least if the power isnt being supplied for X
amount of hours a day, then when there is no power, the meter is not
turning, so you aren't paying anything during that time. (Note- the
price will rise to make up this difference of course, you have no
doubt already heard of these eco-nazis -like the one on this group- in
UK saying that people should not have a right to or expect 24 hour
power.) Admittedly your fridge is going to run for a while to get the
temp back to normal after power returns and cost a little more than
usual, same with any UPS or rechargeable device, but this is minimal
overall.



The whole point is, it isn't going to get better in a hurry - if ever,
so if any of you need reliable 24-7 power for anything you have, you
had better plan long term to have some sort of backup available, such
as UPS, generator etc, maybe a solar system that can run off grid ?

At least we are luckier than most - we at least know how to do this
stuff more than mr and ms average.

 

[kreed]

On Nov 25, 8:53 am, "bristan" <n...@none.com> wrote:

Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short blackouts
occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of Sydney. I
happened to have a power meter connected at the time and watched as the
voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which level the power went
off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The voltage went back to 230 or
so then the process repeated . This went on for about half an hour. I
switched off what I could but it is a pain having to reset all the clocks,
redate the phone etc. The fridges weren't, to happy about it either. Non
peak times the voltage goes up around 250
Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all the
changes in the electricity arrangements!

Just remembered, in the former USSR republics, this sort of thing
happened more and more in the last decade of its existance, to the
point where the state electrical manufacturing company "electronika"
produced these "stabilisers" which from memory had 2 power
transformers and a large inductor (no solid state parts) - in order to
keep the mains at a stable 220v.


I did take a pic, of the device and the schematic for it if anyone is
particularly excited about it.