Is there a newsgrop for Mozilla Thunderbird?...

[Joerg]

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be started
anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard refuses to pull
down the green line on the PSU. Probably something simple but Dell does
not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very good PC, a Dell XPS 8700
with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely in
the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes it. ...

Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.

... If not, replacement (used) Z87 motherboard. About $100.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Dell+XPS+8700+Z87+motherboard

That is an option but I read that numerous people had mobos die and
these will all be around six years old like mine. I don\'t want to have
another nightmare like this in a year.

Then, just a few days later, the lab bench PC died. So I immediately
hopped into the car and bought a new PC. HP M01 with the AMD Ryzen 3
which will probably only have half the horsepower but being semi-retired
that\'s ok. I could have used the bicycle since its only 30mi but the
smoke was way too thick.

The OS here is MX-Linux

Hmmm... I\'ve been meaning to try something simpler than Ubuntu and
Mint. Comparison of Ubuntu with MX-Linux:
https://www.slant.co/versus/2689/22501/~ubuntu_vs_mx-linux
Two members of the local Linux user group are running MX-Linux on
removable and portable (and resistant) media, and just moving the
drives from machine to machine.

I can\'t quite agree with the CPU load. MX is fairly lean. It does have
downsides. While not or barely having systemd might make things more
reliable a lot of commands won\'t work. Such as systemctl, and that\'s a
bummer. I have to use a boutique distro from June 2020 because the
others do not support the graphics in the Ryzen CPU.

A major upside of MX is continued 32-bit support such as for my trusty
old Samsung NC10.

Thanks, I got it going well enough to work with email but it ain\'t the
same as before. Much slower.

I would normally suggest doing image backups, which backs up
everything and is quite fast. So far, I don\'t like what I\'ve tried,
so no recommendation. Nobody makes backups until AFTER they have lost
data.

My backups turned out to be pretty watertight. Despite two PCs
hardware-fail in rapid succession (just when I had everything
transferred) I did not even lose a single email.

I\'ll probably look for a used PC for the lab bench, can be slow, as long
as its CPU has VT-x.

Incidentally, when I evacuated my house to avoid the CZU fire, I moved
my home Win7 mini-tower (HP Pavilion Elite m9077c) to my Spartan
former office. It worked just fine while I was there. However, when
I returned home 13 days later, it wouldn\'t boot. It was complaining
that it couldn\'t boot from various non-existent media devices (SD, CD,
SM, XD, etc). The problem was a failed USB to media card adapter,
clever buried under many layers of wire, plastic, and metal. No way
to disable the adapter in the BIOS.

I pulled the connectors for all of that to make sure that wasn\'t the
cause. Maybe just leave that cable off until you find a replacement?

... However, if I wait approximately
20 minutes for the BIOS to time out trying to boot from all 4 slots,
it functions normally. I\'m currently in the process of moving my
business stuff to a smaller Linux Mint 20.x and my \"productivity\"
stuff to Win10 on a Dell Optiplex 9020 i7 SFF.

This new PC has Windows 10 but I plan to disable all updates (so MS
won\'t nuke the bootloader) and then when I know I can completely live
without Windows except for in a VM I\'ll bury Windows 10.

Good luck.

Thanks. It\'s going to be a long slog since I am not an IT guy.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[legg]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be started
anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard refuses to pull
down the green line on the PSU. Probably something simple but Dell does
not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very good PC, a Dell XPS 8700
with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely in
the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.

Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally. I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)

Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.

RL

 

[Joerg]

On 9/19/20 4:56 AM, legg wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be started
anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard refuses to pull
down the green line on the PSU. Probably something simple but Dell does
not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very good PC, a Dell XPS 8700
with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely in
the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.


Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally.

When I force-start the PSU by shunting the green wire to ground all
voltages come up as expected but the PC won\'t do anything other than run
its fans and hard drives.

... I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)

What I have is that the 5V standby voltage is fine and when the power
button is pressed (it essentially pulls down two pins on a connector)
you can here a very faint wine but the motherboard does not pull down
the green PSU wire, so no start. It won\'t start the PSU.

Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.

I could do that but it would only make sense if I knew for sure that the
big i7 processor isn\'t the culprit and is ok. Problem ist, you get zero
documentation for motherboards these days so a decent on-board diagnosis
is next to impossible.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Steve Wilson]

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/19/20 4:56 AM, legg wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be
started anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard
refuses to pull down the green line on the PSU. Probably something
simple but Dell does not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very
good PC, a Dell XPS 8700 with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely
in the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes
it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.


Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally.


When I force-start the PSU by shunting the green wire to ground all
voltages come up as expected but the PC won\'t do anything other than
run its fans and hard drives.


... I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)


What I have is that the 5V standby voltage is fine and when the power
button is pressed (it essentially pulls down two pins on a connector)
you can here a very faint wine but the motherboard does not pull down
the green PSU wire, so no start. It won\'t start the PSU.


Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.


I could do that but it would only make sense if I knew for sure that
the big i7 processor isn\'t the culprit and is ok. Problem ist, you get
zero documentation for motherboards these days so a decent on-board
diagnosis is next to impossible.

Did you remember to plug in the 12 volt cable?

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atx12v4

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html

 

[Joerg]

On 9/19/20 2:12 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/19/20 4:56 AM, legg wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be
started anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard
refuses to pull down the green line on the PSU. Probably something
simple but Dell does not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very
good PC, a Dell XPS 8700 with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely
in the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes
it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.


Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally.


When I force-start the PSU by shunting the green wire to ground all
voltages come up as expected but the PC won\'t do anything other than
run its fans and hard drives.


... I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)


What I have is that the 5V standby voltage is fine and when the power
button is pressed (it essentially pulls down two pins on a connector)
you can here a very faint wine but the motherboard does not pull down
the green PSU wire, so no start. It won\'t start the PSU.


Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.


I could do that but it would only make sense if I knew for sure that
the big i7 processor isn\'t the culprit and is ok. Problem ist, you get
zero documentation for motherboards these days so a decent on-board
diagnosis is next to impossible.

Did you remember to plug in the 12 volt cable?

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atx12v4

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html

Yup

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[legg]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 14:35:17 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 9/19/20 2:12 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/19/20 4:56 AM, legg wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be
started anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard
refuses to pull down the green line on the PSU. Probably something
simple but Dell does not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very
good PC, a Dell XPS 8700 with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely
in the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes
it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.


Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally.


When I force-start the PSU by shunting the green wire to ground all
voltages come up as expected but the PC won\'t do anything other than
run its fans and hard drives.


... I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)


What I have is that the 5V standby voltage is fine and when the power
button is pressed (it essentially pulls down two pins on a connector)
you can here a very faint wine but the motherboard does not pull down
the green PSU wire, so no start. It won\'t start the PSU.


Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.


I could do that but it would only make sense if I knew for sure that
the big i7 processor isn\'t the culprit and is ok. Problem ist, you get
zero documentation for motherboards these days so a decent on-board
diagnosis is next to impossible.

Did you remember to plug in the 12 volt cable?

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atx12v4

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html


Yup

A lot of stuff hangs on the 12V - it\'s usually the 12V inside the PSU
that shows bulging caps - placing stress on external caps at same time
as they go hi-Z. Replacing PSU or those internal caps won\'t correct
for premature aging of the external parts, which are usually less
rugged to begin with - they\'re in a place where they\'re needed -
possibly only at spin-up.

I wouldn\'t have thought much about it, but I had one bulging 12V cap
on one Dell motherboard that clued me in for a later bulge-free
failure-to-boot on another.

The motherboard replacements were for; dead usb port and; a video
chip with a hole blown through it\'s package top.
issue on a second board.

 

[Joerg]

On 9/19/20 7:02 PM, legg wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 14:35:17 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 9/19/20 2:12 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/19/20 4:56 AM, legg wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be
started anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard
refuses to pull down the green line on the PSU. Probably something
simple but Dell does not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very
good PC, a Dell XPS 8700 with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely
in the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes
it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.


Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally.


When I force-start the PSU by shunting the green wire to ground all
voltages come up as expected but the PC won\'t do anything other than
run its fans and hard drives.


... I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)


What I have is that the 5V standby voltage is fine and when the power
button is pressed (it essentially pulls down two pins on a connector)
you can here a very faint wine but the motherboard does not pull down
the green PSU wire, so no start. It won\'t start the PSU.


Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.


I could do that but it would only make sense if I knew for sure that
the big i7 processor isn\'t the culprit and is ok. Problem ist, you get
zero documentation for motherboards these days so a decent on-board
diagnosis is next to impossible.

Did you remember to plug in the 12 volt cable?

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atx12v4

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html


Yup

A lot of stuff hangs on the 12V - it\'s usually the 12V inside the PSU
that shows bulging caps - placing stress on external caps at same time
as they go hi-Z. Replacing PSU or those internal caps won\'t correct
for premature aging of the external parts, which are usually less
rugged to begin with - they\'re in a place where they\'re needed -
possibly only at spin-up.

However, for that to cause a non-start the PSU would have to come on and
try to deliver the 12V. The problem in my case is that there is only 5V
standby power as is usual on modern PCs and then when the power button
is pressed the motherboard does not react. It does not pull down the
terminal with the green wire so the PSU isn\'t even commanded to start.

If I start it by hand (BIST button or shorting the green wire) it comes
up fine but, of course, the motherboard keeps everything in the
processor area dormant, so no POST or boot screen.

What I can hear before pressing the power button is a ticking noise
coming from the little piezo beeper. When the power button is pressed a
very faint whine comes from somewhere on the motherboard as if some
switch mode converter wants to start but can\'t. Courtesy of an army
accident my hearing ain\'t good enough to find where, despite trying with
a plastic tube. Maybe I should use a small directional microphone and a
waterfall FFT diagram on a laptop.

I\'ve looked all over for electrolytics but they all look pristine and no
bulging. I went through there with a strong light and a little mirror on
a stick.

I wouldn\'t have thought much about it, but I had one bulging 12V cap
on one Dell motherboard that clued me in for a later bulge-free
failure-to-boot on another.

If I\'d only get to POST or a hanging BIOS screen, but I don\'t :-(

The motherboard replacements were for; dead usb port and; a video
chip with a hole blown through it\'s package top.
issue on a second board.

Replacing a QFP or BGA on-board video chip would be tough, that I\'d call
a total loss. In my case it may be something simple but without a
schematic or at least some clues it won\'t be fixable. Main thing is, I
need to know whether it\'s the CPU or something else on the mobo. If CPU
then spending money on a used mobo makes no sense.

Meantime I have replaced this PC with a HP M01. It\'s AMD Ryzen 3
processor will probably only give me half the horsepower of the i7 but
being semi-retired that\'s ok. I just would like to use the old i7
machine for something else and not just toss it, also for environmental
reasons. It could become a nice lab bench PC because it has VT-x.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[legg]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 08:30:55 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 9/19/20 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 14:35:17 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 9/19/20 2:12 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/19/20 4:56 AM, legg wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 18:52:40 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 9/14/20 8:44 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:07:16 -0700, Joerg
news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

It as a HW meltdown. The PC shut down by itself and cannot be
started anymore. The PSU and switch are ok but the motherboard
refuses to pull down the green line on the PSU. Probably something
simple but Dell does not provide schematics. It is (was?) a very
good PC, a Dell XPS 8700 with a powerful Intel i7 in there.

Bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard, but more likely
in the power supply. Replace power supply and see if that fixes
it. ...


Didn\'t see any suspect electrolytics and the PS is ok.


Dell\'s may tend to flog the 12V rail, locally.


When I force-start the PSU by shunting the green wire to ground all
voltages come up as expected but the PC won\'t do anything other than
run its fans and hard drives.


... I\'ve replaced
un-bulging 12V rail caps at some distance from the PSU connector
on the MB to revive a not-booting unit.(sfter making sure PSU
was OK)


What I have is that the 5V standby voltage is fine and when the power
button is pressed (it essentially pulls down two pins on a connector)
you can here a very faint wine but the motherboard does not pull down
the green PSU wire, so no start. It won\'t start the PSU.


Have also replaced motherboards in two units with no issues.


I could do that but it would only make sense if I knew for sure that
the big i7 processor isn\'t the culprit and is ok. Problem ist, you get
zero documentation for motherboards these days so a decent on-board
diagnosis is next to impossible.

Did you remember to plug in the 12 volt cable?

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atx12v4

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html


Yup

A lot of stuff hangs on the 12V - it\'s usually the 12V inside the PSU
that shows bulging caps - placing stress on external caps at same time
as they go hi-Z. Replacing PSU or those internal caps won\'t correct
for premature aging of the external parts, which are usually less
rugged to begin with - they\'re in a place where they\'re needed -
possibly only at spin-up.


However, for that to cause a non-start the PSU would have to come on and
try to deliver the 12V. The problem in my case is that there is only 5V
standby power as is usual on modern PCs and then when the power button
is pressed the motherboard does not react. It does not pull down the
terminal with the green wire so the PSU isn\'t even commanded to start.

If I start it by hand (BIST button or shorting the green wire) it comes
up fine but, of course, the motherboard keeps everything in the
processor area dormant, so no POST or boot screen.

What I can hear before pressing the power button is a ticking noise
coming from the little piezo beeper. When the power button is pressed a
very faint whine comes from somewhere on the motherboard as if some
switch mode converter wants to start but can\'t. Courtesy of an army
accident my hearing ain\'t good enough to find where, despite trying with
a plastic tube. Maybe I should use a small directional microphone and a
waterfall FFT diagram on a laptop.

I\'ve looked all over for electrolytics but they all look pristine and no
bulging. I went through there with a strong light and a little mirror on
a stick.


I wouldn\'t have thought much about it, but I had one bulging 12V cap
on one Dell motherboard that clued me in for a later bulge-free
failure-to-boot on another.


If I\'d only get to POST or a hanging BIOS screen, but I don\'t :-(


The motherboard replacements were for; dead usb port and; a video
chip with a hole blown through it\'s package top.
issue on a second board.


Replacing a QFP or BGA on-board video chip would be tough, that I\'d call
a total loss. In my case it may be something simple but without a
schematic or at least some clues it won\'t be fixable. Main thing is, I
need to know whether it\'s the CPU or something else on the mobo. If CPU
then spending money on a used mobo makes no sense.

Meantime I have replaced this PC with a HP M01. It\'s AMD Ryzen 3
processor will probably only give me half the horsepower of the i7 but
being semi-retired that\'s ok. I just would like to use the old i7
machine for something else and not just toss it, also for environmental
reasons. It could become a nice lab bench PC because it has VT-x.

Well, replacing the MB will probably fix it up enough - you\'ll
want to stick the HP in some background role, unless it\'s the I7.

RL