Interesting ...

[mike]

On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal. Things change.

 

[mike]

On 1/4/2015 7:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

By how much?
What's the added surface temperature?
Add that to the filament temperature.
What's the percentage increase in filament temperature?

More likely, it shortens the life of the phenolic socket and switch.

 

[Huge]

On 2015-01-05, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

> Things change.

Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.


--
Today is Setting Orange, the 5th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
Celebrate Mungday
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my attitude,
that's your problem.

 

[Klay Anderson]

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 7:02:37 PM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving judgment
on LED lighting. My local supermarket recently had a major refit, and all of
their ceiling fluorescent fittings were replaced with linear LED arrays, so
at first, you don't notice that anything has changed. When I did realise, I
was surprised that the quality and intensity of the light in terms of how
well it illuminated the sales floor, was every bit as good as the original
fluorescents. They also have replaced the car park floodlights with LED
arrays, and these are crap compared to the metal halide fixtures that they
replaced. My hairdresser has replaced all of the mini spots in his ceiling
fixtures with equivalent LED bulbs. They produce a good amount of light, and
the colour is not bad, but they are unpleasantly bright to look at. They are
also not a very good shape and don't fit the fixtures terribly well. I'm not
a great fan of LED street lighting either, as I think it is harsh in
comparison to say LPS, and nothing like as effective at penetrating fog, as
it is polychromatic light. It also doesn't seem as good at producing 'even'
street lighting as LPS or even HPS is, if you can get past the yellow colour
of those types.

I've been a regular visitor to Hong Kong since 2010 and just returned from the worlds largest LED lighting show again in October. I import commercial retrofits that are years ahead of what is available (or "hawked") here in the US. As such, I have quality products and I'm aware of the crap that is out there. My background is in lighting, electronics, television and cinema and I'm well aware of color temperature and lumens. Unfortunately, the customer whose heart is in the right place is usually a victim in cases like you describe. The hacks that sell LED retrofit by-and-large have no clue as to what options are available as they only re-sell what some distributor (or DIY store) has in stock. There are success stories but most likely they are due to dumb luck and not any engineering. Don't get me started on their lack of optical knowledge, lumens, color temperature or the relationship of rods and cones to pupil lumens, CRI, and the horrible spectral response of HPS lamps. I have relations with over 30 vendors in China and I can't tell you how cool and well-made the lamps are becoming.

Here is a brief overview of light and the eye:

Cones and Photopic vision- The central part of the eye is the fovea that is rich in a type of cells called 'cones'. Cones are responsible for color vision and are involved in vision during bright light. This is called Photopic vision.

Rods and Scotopic vision-Rods are sensitive to dim light and are active during low light intensity conditions. Rods cannot perceive color. Vision due to rods is 'black and white.'

Light measuring instruments measure Light intensity in Lumens - considering only the response of the cones. Thus, the Lumens measured by a light meter are also called Photopic Lumens.

In conditions of low light intensity entire vision is due to rod cells (scotopic vision). In medium light intensity (conditions as are often found under street lights and in homes) vision is called Mesopic vision and is due to both rods and cones. Using 'Photopic Lumens' to describe light intensity in such an area grossly underestimates the light intensity as it totally ignores the contribution of rod cells to vision.

And I hate CFLs, too.

Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.

 

[dave]

On 01/05/2015 03:06 AM, Huge wrote:

On 2015-01-05, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

Things change.

Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.


I can't afford to waste money on nostalgia. LEDs rule!

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 05 Jan 2015 02:42:16 -0800, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

On 1/4/2015 7:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

By how much?
What's the added surface temperature?
Add that to the filament temperature.
What's the percentage increase in filament temperature?

Dunno and I don't have an easy way to measure filament temperature.
What I do know is that if I insert an overpowered incandescent light
bulb in my marginally ventillated Ledu desk lamp, it will burn out
fairly soon. The fixture has a sticker on the lampshade inscribed
with:
Caution: To reduce the risk of fire, use 75 watt
type A lamp or smaller.
There's no indication of exactly what will catch fire.

>More likely, it shortens the life of the phenolic socket and switch.

The socket is mostly ceramic, although the insulator might be
phenolic. I can't see the switch. The wiring is covered with heat
protecting sleeving. The insulation might deteriorate from long term
overheating but looks like it will survive nicely with normal use.

My guess(tm) is that the 75 watts is mostly from the UL testing, which
certifies that the appliance will not start a fire or electrocute the
owner. UL testing does not test for appliance lifetime or even
survival. I'm not familiar with how UL tests such things, but I
suspect it's something simple like burying the light in newspaper. I
couldn't find any data on incandescent bulb lifespan versus operating
temperature.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[John Robertson]

On 01/05/2015 3:06 AM, Huge wrote:

On 2015-01-05, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

10% sunlight?

John ;-#)#


--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[bob]

On 1/2/2015 8:56 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:

EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405


Arfa

Well, i can totally see that. Part of the reason is NOT the LED's
themselves, but the CAP's. If there is a modern multinational cartel
these days, its NOT oil but the manufacturer of small capacitors. They
build these dam things to fail in a few years anymore. Between the
elevated temps they operate at and lack of quality guts, capacitors are
the weak link. And that includes LED lights because they use them in the
power supplys.

Last year, i bought a bargain CFL lamp for $1 at the dollar store.
Worked for maybe a hour them ZBOOOM! TOOK it apart and sure enough,
capacitor guts all over.

It seems most modern LCD tv's have a life of two or three years then
they go haywire. I was all ready to get a new Sharp LED set before the
first of the year on sale and was about the push go, then figured
i better do some research first. Pages and pages of it failed soon
and the manufacturer would not help. I'm sure capacitors are one
of the major reasons for that also.

i just saw some 40W LED bulbs at a ACE US hardware store for $5.99 on
sale. almost got one, but held off for now. Its hard to beat the
simplicity of a incandescent lamp.

bob

 

[Tim Watts]

On 05/01/15 20:15, bob wrote:

It seems most modern LCD tv's have a life of two or three years then
they go haywire. I was all ready to get a new Sharp LED set before the
first of the year on sale and was about the push go, then figured
i better do some research first. Pages and pages of it failed soon
and the manufacturer would not help. I'm sure capacitors are one
of the major reasons for that also.

I have 3 Samsung screens:

42" TV, circa 2005, running as well now as the day it was new;

20" (ish) computer monitor, 2006 ish, still good, maybe the backlight is
a tad dimmer than it used to be;

20" ish TV, circa 2008, still perfect, using it now.

So Samsung seems reliable.

i just saw some 40W LED bulbs at a ACE US hardware store for $5.99 on
sale. almost got one, but held off for now. Its hard to beat the
simplicity of a incandescent lamp.

bob

 

[Leif Neland]

Rod Speed udtrykte prćcist:

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower reliability --
but the fact is that one can easily find electronic devices 50 and 60
years old that have never been serviced that continue to work. Members of
this group probably own them.

This is a category error.

No.

Yes, we all have 'n' year old electronic devices, because we have thrown
away the ones that have failed.

And yet cars are in fact MUCH more reliable now even tho they have a lot more
components than they used to have.

My Yaris ran on 3 cylinders. First I changed spark plugs, because that
what usually worked on old cars. But even with a gap of 1.5mm, the
spark was fine.
So I hooked up the OBD-2 reader: Engine misfire cylinder 1.
I exchanged two "spark plug caps" which is really the ignition coil and
some electronics, one unit per cylinder.
Now "Engine misfire cylinder 3"
So a "new" used unit from a junk yard gotthe car running again.
The car only had run 460000km, not sure when, if ever, the spark plugs
had been changed.

So new cars are MUCH more reliable.

Leif

--
Husk křrelys bagpĺ, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

 

[Phil Allison]

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Rod Speed"

Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote just the
puerile shit that always pours from the back of it when its got done like
a fucking dinner, as it always is by everyone.

Everybody who matters knows exactly who I am.

** Yeah - the grumpy old guy with a cigar hanging out his mouth...


> You are just not one who *does* matter Rod.

** Many folk believe that "Rod Speed" is not an actual person - but a program written by a demented psycho code scribbler bent on revenge.

See this link for an example of what I mean:


http://www.sensationbot.com/jschat.php?db=rodspeed


..... Phil

 

[Rod Speed]

Leif Neland <leif@neland.dk> wrote

Rod Speed wrote
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower
reliability -- but the fact is that one can easily find electronic
devices 50 and 60 years old that have never been serviced that
continue to work. Members of this group probably own them.

This is a category error.

No.

Yes, we all have 'n' year old electronic devices, because
we have thrown away the ones that have failed.

And yet cars are in fact MUCH more reliable now even tho
they have a lot more components than they used to have.

My Yaris ran on 3 cylinders. First I changed spark
plugs, because that what usually worked on old cars.
But even with a gap of 1.5mm, the spark was fine.

Because of all those other components that old cars didn't have.

I haven't even bothered to change mine after 10 years.

So I hooked up the OBD-2 reader: Engine misfire cylinder 1.
I exchanged two "spark plug caps" which is really the
ignition coil and some electronics, one unit per cylinder.

Very unusual way to do things.

Now "Engine misfire cylinder 3"
So a "new" used unit from a junk yard gotthe car
running again. The car only had run 460000km, not
sure when, if ever, the spark plugs had been changed.

So new cars are MUCH more reliable.

Yep. Because they have vastly more components.

 

[Huge]

On 2015-01-05, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:

On 01/05/2015 3:06 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2015-01-05, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

10% sunlight?

*grin*


--
Today is Setting Orange, the 5th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
Celebrate Mungday
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my attitude,
that's your problem.

 

[John Robertson]

On 01/05/2015 12:15 PM, bob wrote:

On 1/2/2015 8:56 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405



Arfa
Well, i can totally see that. Part of the reason is NOT the LED's
themselves, but the CAP's. If there is a modern multinational cartel
these days, its NOT oil but the manufacturer of small capacitors. They
build these dam things to fail in a few years anymore. Between the
elevated temps they operate at and lack of quality guts, capacitors are
the weak link. And that includes LED lights because they use them in the
power supplys.

Last year, i bought a bargain CFL lamp for $1 at the dollar store.
Worked for maybe a hour them ZBOOOM! TOOK it apart and sure enough,
capacitor guts all over.

It seems most modern LCD tv's have a life of two or three years then
they go haywire. I was all ready to get a new Sharp LED set before the
first of the year on sale and was about the push go, then figured
i better do some research first. Pages and pages of it failed soon
and the manufacturer would not help. I'm sure capacitors are one
of the major reasons for that also.

i just saw some 40W LED bulbs at a ACE US hardware store for $5.99 on
sale. almost got one, but held off for now. Its hard to beat the
simplicity of a incandescent lamp.

bob

As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature. So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments. And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well. Some caps are much more tolerant of 50/60hz and others
are better at 20,000hz. Selecting those takes time and the cost
accountants slip in at some point...

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[Rod Speed]

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the
basics.

Arfa is an intelligent and knowledgeable person.

He clearly isn't on that particular question.

What particular question ?

The stupid claim that article he posted made about the
purported problem with a lot more components in a LED light instead of
the single one with the incandescent it replaced.

He didn't even notice that cars are MUCH more reliable than they used
to be even tho they have vastly more components than they
used to have. In spades with computer cpus and memory alone.

You are unbelievable.

We'll see...

How did you manage to extrapolate that mindless crap from my original
post ?

The article you mindlessly posted clearly claimed that when there are
lots more components in the LED light than in the incandescent light it
replaced, that that was absolutely certain to guarantee that it would
have a shorter life than the incandescent it replaced. Pigs arse it does.

<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could
leave for dead flushed where it belongs>

 

[Rod Speed]

Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote just the
puerile shit that always pours from the back of it when its
got done like a fucking dinner, as it always is by everyone.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 1/5/2015 5:42 AM, mike wrote:

On 1/4/2015 7:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

By how much?
What's the added surface temperature?
Add that to the filament temperature.
What's the percentage increase in filament temperature?

More likely, it shortens the life of the phenolic socket and switch.

Phenolic socket? Dear me, you need to get a better class of lamp.
The Luxos are all ceramic and metal, with glass fibre sleeves on the
wiring and two layers of air-spaced metal shield between the bulbs and
the switches.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cgucf0Fnh3nU1@mid.individual.net...

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the
basics.

Arfa is an intelligent and knowledgeable person.

He clearly isn't on that particular question.

What particular question ?

The stupid claim that article he posted made about the
purported problem with a lot more components in a LED light instead of the
single one with the incandescent it replaced.
He didn't even notice that cars are MUCH more reliable than they used to
be even tho they have vastly more components than they used to have. In
spades with computer cpus and memory alone.

You are unbelievable.

We'll see...

How did you manage to extrapolate that mindless crap from my original
post ?

The article you mindlessly posted clearly claimed that when there are lots
more components in the LED light than in the incandescent light it
replaced, that that was absolutely certain to guarantee that it would have
a shorter life than the incandescent it replaced. Pigs arse it does.
reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed
where it belongs

Oh you stupid stupid man. Do you even understand what the word "interesting"
means ? No, of course you don't, because you aren't ...

I didn't post any article. I posted a *link* to an article written by
someone else. I never said I agreed with it. I never said that I disagreed
with it. I never made any comment about the reliability of cars, or indeed
any system with greater or fewer components in it. The trouble with you is
that you like the sound of your own voice too much. You latch onto just
about every post that's made, and start spouting your half-arsed opinions
about stuff that you often clearly understand nothing at all about. You also
get completely wrong ideas in your empty head about what other people have
said, or attribute things that *have* been said, to the wrong poster.

Again, twat ...

Arfa

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 1/4/2015 10:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 14:21:23 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

I have a bunch of Luxo desk lamps that have a 100 W incandescent
surrounded by a 22W circular fluorescent. They're by far the easiest
thing on the eyes that I've ever used.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

Not in the 20 or so years I've been using them. Of course, they were
made onshore, which helps.

I also use two lights, but differently. One is an area flood light,
usually on the ceiling. The other is a desk lamp with a flood light
to light up whatever I'm working on. If the work is large, two flood
lights.

This is what I've been using for close work:
http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/luxo-flood.html
(Oops. I just noticed it's a Ledu, not a Luxo.)

Brr. Ledu is a crappy knockoff of Luxo. I got one by mistake, and it
rapidly went into the trash. Trust me, the $200 a real Luxo costs is a
bargain in the long run.

"Equivalent watts" is a crock. A real 100W bulb puts out about 1690
lumens, so my desk lamps are probably well north of 2500.

Highly recommended, if you have a couple of hundred 100W incandescents
stashed in a cupboard like mine.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Huge" <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
news:cgv9i5Fu4thU2@mid.individual.net...

On 2015-01-05, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

Things change.

Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.

+1 on each of your points

Arfa

--
Today is Setting Orange, the 5th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
Celebrate Mungday
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my attitude,
that's your problem.