Interesting ...

[Michael A. Terrell]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower reliability -- but
the fact is that one can easily find electronic devices 50 and 60 years old
that have never been serviced that continue to work. Members of this group
probably own them.

A failure rate of 1 in 10,000 (per year?) strikes me as unduly pessimistic,
even for devices used in vacuum tube equipment. Solid-state -- which almost
always operates at lower voltages and temperature -- should be even more
reliable.

I own devices that contain far more components than an LED bulb -- yet they do
not drop like flies. Flat-panel TVs are a good example. CU says the reported
breakdown rate is extremely low (3% for a few brands is on the high end), and
advises against purchasing service contracts.

Though the point he raises is valid, and not only deserves, but requires,
study, you can't assume these products fail prematurely simply because they
contain "too many parts". Why they failed is more important. I wouldn't be
surprised if it was due to SMD soldering failure.

I see a lot of LED traffic lights with groups of dead LEDs. The one
closest to me is on the fourth red LED lamp in the last couple years and
already has some groups that are quite dim.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Vir Campestris" <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:vsidnZFrvdYflTrJnZ2dnUVZ8rWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...

On 02/01/2015 15:19, N_Cook wrote:

There is a shop in town that is all LED strip lighting. So far no
failures noticed, but I will estimate the total number of LEDs and
monitor over time.

Our office has been up-and-running for less than 6 months. I don't know
when it was fitted out, but the LED lights in the conference rooms are on
clever circuits so they come on only when they are used - and our floor
was empty.

One of them has died. Not the LEDs, but the driver - it's a square
luminaire with LEDs on each side, and one side flashed.

Andy

A while back, they changed the car park lights to LED at my local Co-op
store. One of them started flashing in fairly short order, and has continued
to do so ever since, despite my repeatedly bringing it to their attention. I
suppose in the days of the metal halide lights that they had previously, the
maintenance guy would just have shinned up a ladder and replaced the lamp in
the fitting. To sort out this LED one would require the entire unit to be
unbolted from the wall, and replaced. As to the failure on the one in your
place being the driver rather than the LEDs themselves, I think that goes
along with what the guy is suggesting in the EE Times article.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cgoeh0F6q44U1@mid.individual.net...

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Qkypw.703472$CW3.143099@fx07.am4...
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405

Mindlessly superficial.

Much like you then ...

Arfa

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 2 Jan 2015 14:56:48 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

EE Times article that came to me by email today
http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405
Arfa

What the article says is that if you calculate the MTBF of an LED
light, it will be lousy. That's true, except that it's no longer
important because such lights are designed to fail. Conspiracy theory
follows.

The problem with LED lights is that they can theoretically last
forever. All that's required is some really good heat sinking, decent
components, and AC line glitch protection. You might see those on
tower lights, runway lights, and other high reliability applications,
but not on the consumer stuff, unless the GUM (great unwashed masses)
suddenly decide that paying for quality is a good thing.

The reason for the designed in failures is the need for manufactories
to continue selling replacements. If they actually made a device that
lasts forever, they will sell a few years worth, and then go out of
business because there will be no replacement sales. Reliability is
bad for (consumer) business.

There's another problem. Anything that lasts longer than the intended
product life is considered a waste of money. For commodity items like
lighting, every penny is important because when selling millions of
lamps, the pennies add up quickly. The result is that failures are
evaluated on basis of MINIMIZING their lifetime. If something lasts
twice as long as originally intended, it is considered a candidate for
"cost reduction" which by implication means "lifetime reduction".
Ideally, the result is a product where everything fails simultaneously
one day after the warranty period. We're fairly close to the idea in
the consumer electronics and computah industry. I've seen such
simultaneous failures on the bench, especially old Sony CRT displays,
which showed evidence of intentional electrolytic capacitor lifetime
manipulation (weird voltage rating on the caps). With today's heavily
computerized design and modeling tools, it is possible to design for a
specific lifetime.

All this begs the question "Why did the author write the article"?
Scott Elder is no slouch and works for a reputable manufacturer of the
chips used to run LED lighting. Presumably, he knows how it all works
and has real data to substantiate his allegations. It seems counter
productive that an industry insider would write an article denouncing
the industry perception of LED lifetimes and reliability. My best
guess(tm) is that he's frustrated by the aforementioned penny counting
cost and lifetime reductions and wanted an indirect way to point out
the problem without appears to be a conspiratorial wacko like me.

That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My
best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting to
LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting. Am I at
least close?

This also begs the question "Why did I write this long rant when I
should be doing something productive"? That's easy. I like to write
conspiracy theories. It's also Friday evening, which I reserve for
working on my own projects. Finally, I've had some medical problems
lately and feel lousy enough to want to dump my problems on the world.
This is a good start.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 01:23:28 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cgoeh0F6q44U1@mid.individual.net...

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Qkypw.703472$CW3.143099@fx07.am4...
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405

Mindlessly superficial.

Much like you then ...
Arfa

Nothing profound has ever been said on one line.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Rod Speed]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TtidndKcQb6NoDrJnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

William Sommerwerck wrote:

His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower reliability --
but
the fact is that one can easily find electronic devices 50 and 60 years
old
that have never been serviced that continue to work. Members of this
group
probably own them.

A failure rate of 1 in 10,000 (per year?) strikes me as unduly
pessimistic,
even for devices used in vacuum tube equipment. Solid-state -- which
almost
always operates at lower voltages and temperature -- should be even more
reliable.

I own devices that contain far more components than an LED bulb -- yet
they do
not drop like flies. Flat-panel TVs are a good example. CU says the
reported
breakdown rate is extremely low (3% for a few brands is on the high end),
and
advises against purchasing service contracts.

Though the point he raises is valid, and not only deserves, but requires,
study, you can't assume these products fail prematurely simply because
they
contain "too many parts". Why they failed is more important. I wouldn't
be
surprised if it was due to SMD soldering failure.

I see a lot of LED traffic lights with groups of dead LEDs.

Can't say I have ever seen even one.

The one closest to me is on the fourth red LED lamp in the last
couple years and already has some groups that are quite dim.

Presumably just a very bad design.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:mwHpw.359076$Ea7.183939@fx16.am4...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cgoeh0F6q44U1@mid.individual.net...


"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Qkypw.703472$CW3.143099@fx07.am4...
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405

Mindlessly superficial.

Much like you then ...

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:htfeaa9rp9rc028ei8e7phd31i20rq4b2o@4ax.com...

On Fri, 2 Jan 2015 14:56:48 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

EE Times article that came to me by email today
http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405
Arfa

What the article says is that if you calculate the MTBF of an LED
light, it will be lousy. That's true, except that it's no longer
important because such lights are designed to fail. Conspiracy theory
follows.

The problem with LED lights is that they can theoretically last
forever. All that's required is some really good heat sinking, decent
components, and AC line glitch protection. You might see those on
tower lights, runway lights, and other high reliability applications,
but not on the consumer stuff, unless the GUM (great unwashed masses)
suddenly decide that paying for quality is a good thing.

The reason for the designed in failures is the need for manufactories
to continue selling replacements. If they actually made a device that
lasts forever, they will sell a few years worth, and then go out of
business because there will be no replacement sales. Reliability is
bad for (consumer) business.

There's another problem. Anything that lasts longer than the intended
product life is considered a waste of money. For commodity items like
lighting, every penny is important because when selling millions of
lamps, the pennies add up quickly. The result is that failures are
evaluated on basis of MINIMIZING their lifetime. If something lasts
twice as long as originally intended, it is considered a candidate for
"cost reduction" which by implication means "lifetime reduction".
Ideally, the result is a product where everything fails simultaneously
one day after the warranty period. We're fairly close to the idea in
the consumer electronics and computah industry. I've seen such
simultaneous failures on the bench, especially old Sony CRT displays,
which showed evidence of intentional electrolytic capacitor lifetime
manipulation (weird voltage rating on the caps). With today's heavily
computerized design and modeling tools, it is possible to design for a
specific lifetime.

Bullshit.

All this begs the question "Why did the author write the article"?
Scott Elder is no slouch and works for a reputable manufacturer of the
chips used to run LED lighting. Presumably, he knows how it all works
and has real data to substantiate his allegations. It seems counter
productive that an industry insider would write an article denouncing
the industry perception of LED lifetimes and reliability. My best
guess(tm) is that he's frustrated by the aforementioned penny counting
cost and lifetime reductions and wanted an indirect way to point out
the problem without appears to be a conspiratorial wacko like me.

Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the basics.

That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"?
My best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting
to LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting.
Am I at least close?

Nope.

This also begs the question "Why did I write this long rant when
I should be doing something productive"? That's easy. I like to
write conspiracy theories. It's also Friday evening, which I reserve
for working on my own projects. Finally, I've had some medical
problems lately and feel lousy enough to want to dump my
problems on the world. This is a good start.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 13:41:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the basics.

<https://www.linkedin.com/pub/j-scott-elder/48/217/717>
28 years experience in analog IC design. 16 patents.

Some of his blog articles:
<http://www.planetanalog.com/archives.asp?section_id=526>

Are you really qualified to judge whether he has a clue? I think not.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the
basics.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/j-scott-elder/48/217/717
28 years experience in analog IC design. 16 patents.

Clearly doesn't have a fucking clue about how to calculate
how long a LED light will last compared with an incandescent.

Some of his blog articles:
http://www.planetanalog.com/archives.asp?section_id=526

Are you really qualified to judge whether he has a clue?

Anyone is with that stupid claim about how long a
LED light will last compared with an incandescent.

> I think not.

Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of rational thought.

 

[Henry Mydlarz]

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message news:Qkypw.703472$CW3.143099@fx07.am4...

EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405

Arfa

A few months ago I bought at Aldi about eight LED bulbs to use on my 240V
lighting (Australia). Three of them failed within about a month, one of them
does light up occasionally. Unfortunately I could not find the receipt for
them.

Henry

 

[Bob Eager]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 17:32:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

All this begs the question "Why did the author write the article"? Scott

That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My

This also begs the question "Why did I write this long rant when I

http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/begging-the-question-
again/?_r=0

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me ÂŁ30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

 

[Tim Watts]

On 03/01/15 05:03, Cydrome Leader wrote:

> 35 years old? That thing must have been belt driven.

Philips SL probably - 35 year old this year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#mediaviewer/File:Old_compact_fluorescent_lamp.JPG

The oldest ones I saw were 1990-ish and from panasonic, with a huge
magnetic ballast. It was large, stupid and didn't fit in most fixtures. I
can't recall what the life was, but it was put together well with lots of
glass and silicone goop. There's no way in hell it was cheaper than a box
of incandescent bulbs, especially when you factor in the part where
electricity itself isn't really that expensive in the US.

 

[polygonum]

On 03/01/2015 05:03, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> 35 years old? That thing must have been belt driven.

Perhaps one of the 2D lamps? Like in the link below - but maybe the
specs. have been changed form the originals?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/16W-Energy-Saving-Light-bulb/dp/B001N7SKVU

Surely they were the precursors of the more compact CFLs? And I remember
seeing a large number of them at Preston Guildhall somewhen around the
mid-1980s or so.

--
Rod

 

[Brian Gaff]

Well back in the days when i could see, I used to build stuff and used
solder, but increasingly even then automation for mass produced products
meant that surface mount and wire wrap techniques abounded. I'd imagine with
the banning of leaded solder its more likely that machines can make better
joints than humans even if they could use soldering stations easily.
Back then the only folk still soldering in industry were the development
types. If a pcb failed in test, then it was taken out junked and replaced.
Gone are the days when simple hands on component substitution was cost
effective it seems.
As for led lamps, I imagine they are still in the early stages of
evaluation. Nobody has had them in service long enough to refine colour temp
and reliability methods. It will probably only get better though as the
efficiency is so much better than alternatives, they are going to make it
work.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m86csv$8eo$1@dont-email.me...

On 02/01/2015 14:56, Arfa Daily wrote:
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405


Arfa

There is a shop in town that is all LED strip lighting. So far no failures
noticed, but I will estimate the total number of LEDs and monitor over
time. I would guess , sitting here, something like 20,000 5mm LEDs in
total (not the higher powered types). I feel like running a red/orange
felt-tip along all
the cover-strips of the LED runs, as its that horrible stark blue-white.
Doesn't take much pen ink to give a much warmer tone (to CFL bulbs anyway)

This article has soldering as a dying art along with trug making etc

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/dec/30/traditional-skills-endangered-heritage-craft

perhaps they meant soldering as in tin-smithing.
But on the other hand how much hands-on soldering rework of modern day
mass electronics production is there?

 

[Tim Watts]

On the subject - what *is* the best way to drive LEDs?

Seems to me that whilst convenient and in line with my earlier comments
on standardisation, putting little 230V PSUs in every lamp that get hot
and blow up is not the best way forward.

Does a 12V supply offer any advantages in terms of minimising on board
electronics? 12V SELV is at least standard.

If an LED has a Vf (forward voltage drop) of x volts, is it considered
good form to put 12/x LEDs in series across the supply with no other
limiting circuitry?

Or is there a really simple 2 pin current regulator on a chip available?

Old style 0.2" 20mA LEDs weren't that bothered, but I'm not au fait with
high power Crees and the like.

 

[bm]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cgpcn4Fdsg6U1@mid.individual.net...

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the
basics.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/j-scott-elder/48/217/717
28 years experience in analog IC design. 16 patents.

Clearly doesn't have a fucking clue about how to calculate
how long a LED light will last compared with an incandescent.

Some of his blog articles:
http://www.planetanalog.com/archives.asp?section_id=526

Are you really qualified to judge whether he has a clue?

Anyone is with that stupid claim about how long a
LED light will last compared with an incandescent.

I think not.

Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of rational thought.

LOL

 

[Rod Speed]

Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote

Well back in the days when i could see, I used to build stuff and used
solder, but increasingly even then automation for mass produced products
meant that surface mount and wire wrap techniques abounded. I'd imagine
with the banning of leaded solder its more likely that machines can make
better joints than humans even if they could use soldering stations
easily.

They still do in china as the recently posted youtube
video of one of the production lines in china shows.

Back then the only folk still soldering in industry were the development
types.

Not in china.

> If a pcb failed in test, then it was taken out junked and replaced.

Not in china.

Gone are the days when simple hands on component substitution was cost
effective it seems.

Not in china.

As for led lamps, I imagine they are still in the early stages of
evaluation.

Particularly with the higher powered ones.

More production than evaluation tho.

Nobody has had them in service long enough to refine colour temp and
reliability methods.

I doubt that is true of Cree.

> It will probably only get better though

Absolutely certainly.

as the efficiency is so much better than alternatives, they are going to
make it work.

They already have with quite a bit of LED stuff.

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m86csv$8eo$1@dont-email.me...
On 02/01/2015 14:56, Arfa Daily wrote:
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405


Arfa

There is a shop in town that is all LED strip lighting. So far no
failures noticed, but I will estimate the total number of LEDs and
monitor over time. I would guess , sitting here, something like 20,000
5mm LEDs in total (not the higher powered types). I feel like running a
red/orange felt-tip along all
the cover-strips of the LED runs, as its that horrible stark blue-white.
Doesn't take much pen ink to give a much warmer tone (to CFL bulbs
anyway)

This article has soldering as a dying art along with trug making etc

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/dec/30/traditional-skills-endangered-heritage-craft

perhaps they meant soldering as in tin-smithing.
But on the other hand how much hands-on soldering rework of modern day
mass electronics production is there?

 

[Tim Lamb]

In message <m87t7j$5ai$2@reader1.panix.com>, Cydrome Leader
<presence@MUNGEpanix.com> writes

In sci.electronics.repair Capitol <spam@wher.eva.co.uk> wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Jerry Peters<jerry@example.invalid> wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Cydrome Leader<presence@mungepanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair mike<ham789@netzero.net> wrote:
On 1/2/2015 6:56 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
EE Times article that came to me by email today


http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighti
ng.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405


Arfa
I've never had a CFL failure that I could trace to the CFL.
It's always the electronics driving it. A power glitch can take
out a LED just as easily as a CFL.

I've had a couple CFLs burn out at the bulb from old age. Most had
electronic failures, or jsut broke.

The longest lasting CFL may be one in my bathroom with 10 years of
on-off use. I'd have to remove it to checked the purchase date I write on
them though.

I've had a few CFL's fail due to electronics failure, but the newer
bulbs last longer. Unfortunately as they age they get dimmer. Looking
at an aged bulb I noticed that the phosphor layer has turned a brownish
color.

I'd have to agree that the newer ones seem a bit better. They've figured
out how make them as simple as possible now is my guess.

I did have one failure that when I took it apart, 1 of the wires to to
the flourescent was disconnected& the others were questionable.
Soldered them all& re-assembled the bulb and it's still in use in the
basement bathroom.

they're still useless for outdoor cold use. The ones outside by the stairs
are like nightlights when the temps drop to freezing. It's amazing they
even start.

I'm not a fan of the warm up period they take, even indoors.

Interesting, my outside CFLs are over 35yrs old and start down to -8C
without fail. My newer CFLs, die like flies in comparison, particularly
in glass globe fittings. I reckon some CFLs have as short a life as
filament bulbs, even when running cool..

35 years old? That thing must have been belt driven.

Philips brought out a bayonet fitting CFL late '70's. Very heavy for
pendant drops!

Our outside lamps are CFLs fitted in 1995. No failures although they
don't get much use.

The oldest ones I saw were 1990-ish and from panasonic, with a huge
magnetic ballast. It was large, stupid and didn't fit in most fixtures. I
can't recall what the life was, but it was put together well with lots of
glass and silicone goop. There's no way in hell it was cheaper than a box
of incandescent bulbs, especially when you factor in the part where
electricity itself isn't really that expensive in the US.

--
Tim Lamb

 

[Huge]

On 2015-01-02, William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower reliability -- but
the fact is that one can easily find electronic devices 50 and 60 years old
that have never been serviced that continue to work. Members of this group
probably own them.

This is a category error. Yes, we all have 'n' year old electronic devices,
because we have thrown away the ones that have failed.

--
Today is Pungenday, the 3rd day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
"The four most overrated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex
and picnics." Christopher Hitchens.