insulating sheet for hard drive PCB

Hi,

I just had to buy a replacement for my dead laptop hard drive (Hitachi
Travelstar in an Armada E500). The original drive has its printed
circuit board insulated with an adhesive sheet of silver-colored
plastic. Does anybody know a company that makes this kind of insulating
sheet, or, even better, a place where one can find this in London ? I
dredged the internet but couldn't find anything like it.

Thanks for your help,

alex

 

[Paul]

In article <1134694324.656940.212210@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi,

I just had to buy a replacement for my dead laptop hard drive (Hitachi
Travelstar in an Armada E500). The original drive has its printed
circuit board insulated with an adhesive sheet of silver-colored
plastic. Does anybody know a company that makes this kind of insulating
sheet, or, even better, a place where one can find this in London ? I
dredged the internet but couldn't find anything like it.

Thanks for your help,

alex

Do you see the insulating material in this parts manual ?

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/UCR/SupportManual/TPM_128679-001_ch3/TPM_128679-001_ch3.pdf

http://h20141.www2.hp.com/hpparts/Country_Choice.asp

Paul

 

[Noozer]

<alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134694324.656940.212210@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Hi,

I just had to buy a replacement for my dead laptop hard drive (Hitachi
Travelstar in an Armada E500). The original drive has its printed
circuit board insulated with an adhesive sheet of silver-colored
plastic. Does anybody know a company that makes this kind of insulating
sheet, or, even better, a place where one can find this in London ? I
dredged the internet but couldn't find anything like it.

If it's not included on the drive, you shouldn't need it. If you are
paranoid, you could use a simple piece of printer paper trimmed down to
size, or use a clear plastic page protector.

 

alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com wrote:

I just had to buy a replacement for my dead laptop hard drive (Hitachi
Travelstar in an Armada E500). The original drive has its printed
circuit board insulated with an adhesive sheet of silver-colored
plastic. Does anybody know a company that makes this kind of insulating
sheet, or, even better, a place where one can find this in London ?

It's EMI shielding foil laminated to an electrically insulating layer
of polyester (Mylar), vinyl (PVC), kapton, or polysulfone. 3M and
Chomerics are 2 makers, and sometimes local distributors will give
people small samples. You can probably get by with making your own
from aluminum foil and several layers of Mylar,. kapton, or
polypropylene tape. Use enough layers to make it thick enough to
withstand being pierced by soldered leads (Mylar and kapton resist
piercing better than polypropylene does) but not so thick that it fits
tightly and blocks air flow. The tape should extend slightly beyond
the perimeter of the foil, to prevent shorts against the foil. You may
have to cover both sides of the aluminum, in which case at least one
spot will have to be left bare to allow direct contact with a ground
point (often a metal spring). Actually this homemade lamination may
not be completely proper because the insulation isn't anti-static, but
in practice it should be safe.

 

[philo]

<alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134694324.656940.212210@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Hi,

I just had to buy a replacement for my dead laptop hard drive (Hitachi
Travelstar in an Armada E500). The original drive has its printed
circuit board insulated with an adhesive sheet of silver-colored
plastic. Does anybody know a company that makes this kind of insulating
sheet, or, even better, a place where one can find this in London ? I
dredged the internet but couldn't find anything like it.

Just re-use the one from your dead HD

 

[kony]

On 15 Dec 2005 16:52:04 -0800, alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com
wrote:

Hi,

I just had to buy a replacement for my dead laptop hard drive (Hitachi
Travelstar in an Armada E500). The original drive has its printed
circuit board insulated with an adhesive sheet of silver-colored
plastic. Does anybody know a company that makes this kind of insulating
sheet, or, even better, a place where one can find this in London ? I
dredged the internet but couldn't find anything like it.

Thanks for your help,

alex

A bit more detail might be useful...

What makes you feel your new drive "needs" this added?
Is the drive cavity of the notebook irregular and the drive
circuit board would be touching metal portions of it? That
seems doubtful.

Drives are designed to be used as-is, and notebooks
generally to accept "as-is" drives... I tend to suspect that
if you needed this plastic sheet it would've been built into
the notebook, not on the drive... but then there isn't much
info to go on.

If all you want is an insulating plastic sheet for some
other use, just grab any random thin sheet of plastic and a
suitable adhesive if needed.

 

Thanks for all your answers.

A bit more detail:

Oddly, the bottom of the HD cavity is in metal, and the drive is
mounted on a metal caddy that doesn't prevent contact. That's probably
why the laptop manufacturer (Compaq) has glued this insulating sheet on
the PCB.

Anyhow, if I don't find a proper insulating sheet I will use a simple
sheet of plastic, as suggested. Any comments on which type of plastic
might have better anti-static properties, if that matters ? I think the
kind of insulating sheet I was looking for also provides some
electromagnetic interference shielding. Does this matter for a HD ?

Regards,

alex

 

[kony]

On 16 Dec 2005 10:26:05 -0800, alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com
wrote:

Thanks for all your answers.

A bit more detail:

Oddly, the bottom of the HD cavity is in metal, and the drive is
mounted on a metal caddy that doesn't prevent contact. That's probably
why the laptop manufacturer (Compaq) has glued this insulating sheet on
the PCB.

Anyhow, if I don't find a proper insulating sheet I will use a simple
sheet of plastic, as suggested. Any comments on which type of plastic
might have better anti-static properties, if that matters ?

Anti-static isn't really an issue, it only needs be thick
enough to prevent any edges from wearing through it.

Personally, I wouldn't affix the plastic to the drive at
all, I'd put it in the notebook over this problem area.
That might also allow the drive to run just a little cooler
as more airflow will result across the PCB.

I think the
kind of insulating sheet I was looking for also provides some
electromagnetic interference shielding. Does this matter for a HD ?

I suspect it was just cosmetic, maybe it was ESD protection
during an automated (or manual) assembly process but doing
this yourself and being mindful of ESD, once you have the
drive installed this should not be a problem. What could be
a problem is if you used ESD protective material and allowed
the conductive side to touch the PCB which could provide a
high resistance electrical path between parts, a path that
should not exist. No HDD will need one of these shields in
a normal use, hence why they didn't have one installed
already.

I don't know about your particular drive, but generally
there are not sharp through-hole component leads sticking
down below the circuit boards. This plastic sheet may not
need have much abrasion resistance beyond a reasonable
thickness, anything 12 mils (.012 inch or about 1/3 of a
millimeter) thick should be plenty if there aren't any sharp
leads resting on it. I'd probably try something like
hobby/craft contact cement as an adhesive though you'd want
to be sure it didn't get on any outer/visible plastic
portions of the notebook.

 

[newtype]

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in news:evo6q1lll07qa5j324gefprr2kebosvr0h@
4ax.com:

On 16 Dec 2005 10:26:05 -0800, alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com
wrote:

Thanks for all your answers.

A bit more detail:

Oddly, the bottom of the HD cavity is in metal, and the drive is
mounted on a metal caddy that doesn't prevent contact. That's probably
why the laptop manufacturer (Compaq) has glued this insulating sheet on
the PCB.

Anyhow, if I don't find a proper insulating sheet I will use a simple
sheet of plastic, as suggested. Any comments on which type of plastic
might have better anti-static properties, if that matters ?

... snip ...


A simple sheet of plastic will be bad news for ESD, it will charge
up to 10,000 volts if you rub it together. This is easily seen with
an ESD Static Field Meter. Well, a stupid move, don't do it.
Instead of plastic sheet, have you heard of conformal coat spray
used in the electronics industry? Well that's a bad idea you'll
probably over spray. What about fish paper? As an insulating
material, it's safest for anyone who dosen't know a thing about
electronics.

 

alexandre_irrthum@yahoo.com wrote:

Oddly, the bottom of the HD cavity is in metal, and the drive is
mounted on a metal caddy that doesn't prevent contact.

Anyhow, if I don't find a proper insulating sheet I will use a simple
sheet of plastic, as suggested. Any comments on which type of plastic
might have better anti-static properties, if that matters ? I think the
kind of insulating sheet I was looking for also provides some
electromagnetic interference shielding. Does this matter for a HD ?

The metal of the HD cavity probably proides all the EMI shielding you
need, in which case the fish paper mentioned by Newtype is the best
solution because it doesn't generate much static and is fairly hard to
pierce. Electronics supplies carry it, but you should be able to use
thin cardboard gasket material instead. I'm not referring to ordinary
cardboard but the thin, dense type that's usually dark gray. The best
plastic to use may be mylar.

 

[kony]

On 17 Dec 2005 02:46:54 GMT, newtype
<res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:

A simple sheet of plastic will be bad news for ESD, it will charge
up to 10,000 volts if you rub it together.

Rub it together with what, exactly?
You're arbitrarily looking for a problem where there isn't
one, if you rub "something" against just about any circuit
board there is a theoretical potential for ESD, not just
some addition of a piece of plastic.

This is easily seen with
an ESD Static Field Meter. Well, a stupid move, don't do it.

Don't be an idiot. Electrical and electronics Industry uses
plastic sheeting for insulation all the time, there's
probably even one in your power supply, if not multiple
sheets. If you have some irrational fear of what'll happen
when you rub two sheets together in an effort to create ES,
might I suggest that you not try to create any?

The only stupid thing in this scenario with the drive would
be to fasten the conductive side of an ESD material to the
drive PCB.

Instead of plastic sheet, have you heard of conformal coat spray
used in the electronics industry?

Yep, it is NEVER used for direct mechanical contact between
parts that need insulation.

Well that's a bad idea you'll
probably over spray.

If it weren't for the part about it being entirely unsuited
to the task, overspray would not be a problem so long as any
possible air intake areas were covered first. Carefully
masking around an area is a time-proven way to do this but
it's beside the point, this is not a suitable alternative
for insulation purposes of the drive.

What about fish paper? As an insulating
material, it's safest for anyone who dosen't know a thing about
electronics.

Paper or cardboard would work, but there isn't much point to
either of these unless one simply can't find any plastic,
but what 4th world country would one have to live in to not
even have access to a discarded product packaging that was
plastic?

This need is easily met, you're making a mountain into a
molehill.

 

[newtype]

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in news:91b7q19cu6bsqun46ekd3sqtg3hp7vk1oa@
4ax.com:

On 17 Dec 2005 02:46:54 GMT, newtype
res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:

A simple sheet of plastic will be bad news for ESD,
it will charge up to 10,000 volts if you rub it together.

Rub it together with what, exactly?

Rub it with itself, what else? Duhh. Oh yeah, you don't about
ESD damage. experiment 101, get a ESD Static filed meter. Rub
plastic together and bring it 1" from ESD meter, reading will
be above 6,000 maybe to 15,000 volts. Simple triboelectric
charging experiment. Look up Triboelectric charging.

You're arbitrarily looking for a problem where there isn't
one, if you rub "something" against just about any circuit
board there is a theoretical potential for ESD, not just
some addition of a piece of plastic.

This arbitrary problem is a present day industry wide problem!

You don't know about triboelectric charging. You take a
piece of plastic, your touching it, rubbing it, handling it,
charging it up. Do the same with a ESD mylar bag or pink poly
bag and you get no charge. which means you don't know how to
make a charge or prevent charging up of materials.

This is easily seen with
an ESD Static Field Meter. Well, a stupid move, don't do it.

Don't be an idiot. Electrical and electronics Industry uses
plastic sheeting for insulation all the time, there's
probably even one in your power supply, if not multiple
sheets. If you have some irrational fear of what'll happen
when you rub two sheets together in an effort to create ES,
might I suggest that you not try to create any?

Wrong. Electrical uses plastics, electrical not damaged by
voltages about 1000 volts. You have to look at ESD ratings.
You don't know about ESD. hoo humm,


DOD-STD-1686 ESD/EOS 5.1 VOLTAGE RANGE
Equivalent

CLASS 1 CLASS 0 0 to <= 249
CLASS 1 CLASS 1A 250 to <= 499
CLASS 1 CLASS 1B 500 to <= 999
CLASS 1 CLASS 1C 1000 to <= 1,999
CLASS 2 CLASS 2 2000 to <= 3,999
CLASS 2 CLASS 3A 4000 to <= 7,999
CLASS 3 CLASS 3B >= 8000

Gee I guess you really are stupid. Hum. Let's see, buy a
hard drive and it comes in a ESD bag. Buy an computer
part and it comes in a ESD bag. Humm, I just bought 100
diodes and they're shipped in an ESD bag. Humm why is that.
Buy a motherboard and it comes in a ESD bag. humm?
Who the hell would by a Athlon AMD3200 in a zip lock bag.
Dooo! whta a dumb ass thing to do.

Buy a cap, resistor, transformer, how the hell can a
passive part be damaged by any voltage that will ESD
zap an 'ELECTRONIC' component? A component made with
silicon; TTL IC, CMOS IC, diodes 1n4001 sold by any
diode mfg. is shipped in an ESD bag, becasue it can
zap by a ESD discharge. ho humm,


Class 1: Sensitivity Range 0 to 1,000 volts

MR Head Product (i.e. hard drive heads)
CMOS Circuitry without Protective Circuitry
Operational Amplifiers with Un-protective Circuitry
Junction Field Effect Transistors
Thin Film Resistors, type RN
Hybrid Utilization Class 1 parts


Class 2: Sensitivity Range 1,000 to 4,000 volts

CMOS Circuitry with Protective Circuitry
Schottky Diodes
High Speed Emitter Coupled Logic, ECL
Transistor-Transistor Logic, TTL
Operational Amplifiers with Protective Circuitry
Hybrid Utilization Class 2 parts


Class 3: Sensitivity Range 4,000 to 15,000 volts

Small Signal Diodes
General Purpose Diodes
Low Power Transistors
Switching Devices
All other microcircuits not included in Class 1 or 2
Piezoelectric Crystals
Hybrids Utilizing Class 2 parts


In the above list, what is electrical? Nothing !!!
Electrical and Electronics are two different industries.
duhhh.

The only stupid thing in this scenario with the drive would
be to fasten the conductive side of an ESD material to the
drive PCB.

The 1st thing you've said right, conductive.
Your level must be cromagnum man.

Instead of plastic sheet, have you heard of conformal coat
spray used in the electronics industry?

Yep, it is NEVER used for direct mechanical contact between
parts that need insulation.

Wrong. MIL spec PCBs boards are dipped in conformal coat.
Conformal coated boards are then assembled in said chassis.
That typically means screwed down with metal hardware (not
really, stand offs ?), conformal PCBs slid into card slots,
card guides. This is mechanical contact that need insulation,
don't want to short out a PCB now. You don't know, not
enough experience.

Well that's a bad idea you'll probably over spray.

If it weren't for the part about it being entirely unsuited
to the task, overspray would not be a problem so long as any
possible air intake areas were covered first. Carefully
masking around an area is a time-proven way to do this but
it's beside the point, this is not a suitable alternative
for insulation purposes of the drive.

Conformal coat spray comes in mainly 3 different ratings,
silicone (gc chemicals makes this spray) and gives up
to 10,000 volts of barrier protection at 5 to 10 mils.
Heavy duty silicone conformal spray, gives bigger voltage
barrier. And then the bad cancer causing stuff used for
MIL boards, which no can buy anyway.

I doubt that the assembly of a HD in a chassis is going to
experience over 10,000 volts or static zap. So Silicone
conformal coat spray is a suitable viable option.
But if you've never done before this, forget.

What about fish paper? As an insulating material, it's
safest for anyone who dosen't know a thing about electronics.

Paper or cardboard would work, but there isn't much point to
either of these unless one simply can't find any plastic,
but what 4th world country would one have to live in to not
even have access to a discarded product packaging that was
plastic?

Wrong, uhh, Fish paper has a MSDS and you can buy fish paper
in different voltage levels, ex. 10,000 volts is common form
any electronic surplus store. You can buy fish paper for higher
rated voltages. And this higher rated stuff is for 'Electrical'
insulation, not electronic. I've seen up to 60,000 volt break
down fish paper, so says the mfg MSDS, don't you know?

Paper or cardboard is not a a suitable material because it
can not provide any barrier against voltage, it is not an
insulator. white paper or cardboard out gasses chlorine
causing corrosion but what do you know? so far not much.

This need is easily met, you're making a mountain into a
molehill.

Typical tech spew. You have to think about the problem and
find the correct solution. Not act, like a typical garage
tech junkie. Junk makes junk.

 

[kony]

On 17 Dec 2005 11:04:52 GMT, newtype
<res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in news:91b7q19cu6bsqun46ekd3sqtg3hp7vk1oa@
4ax.com:

On 17 Dec 2005 02:46:54 GMT, newtype
res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:


A simple sheet of plastic will be bad news for ESD,
it will charge up to 10,000 volts if you rub it together.

Rub it together with what, exactly?

Rub it with itself, what else? Duhh.

How would you propose to do this?
Fold it over, or cut it in half and pretend you're a cricket
during mating season? I hardly think that's a realistic
scenario unless someone is trying to do it.

Oh yeah, you don't about
ESD damage. experiment 101, get a ESD Static filed meter. Rub
plastic together and bring it 1" from ESD meter, reading will
be above 6,000 maybe to 15,000 volts. Simple triboelectric
charging experiment. Look up Triboelectric charging.

So what's the point exactly?

Ok, let's play Devil's advocate- It is a bad idea to take
multiple pieces of plastic, rub them together trying to
create an ES charge then try to discharge it through the
hard drive PCB. With that out of the way, like I already
wrote manufacturers use plastic sheeting all the time for
insulation and not ESD preventative types, just plain old
plastic.

You're arbitrarily looking for a problem where there isn't
one, if you rub "something" against just about any circuit
board there is a theoretical potential for ESD, not just
some addition of a piece of plastic.


This arbitrary problem is a present day industry wide problem!

ESD is, yes, but trying hard to create some hypothetical
scenario is a pointless exercise, since we can do same with
practically any event, even walking across carpeting. Do
you propose we float above the floor from now on too?

The answer is simple, the chassis is grounded, installer is
discharged and mindful of what's being done... as is always
the scenario. If you're really worried about this then I
hope you have no plastics in your case else you can never
work on a computer again.

You don't know about triboelectric charging. You take a
piece of plastic, your touching it, rubbing it, handling it,
charging it up. Do the same with a ESD mylar bag or pink poly
bag and you get no charge. which means you don't know how to
make a charge or prevent charging up of materials.

Yes, it's possible to create a charge. It's possible to
create a charge without any plastic, too, and plastic
sheeting IS used for insulation, not ESD rated plastic just
plain old untreated sheeting. I don't suppose I need
mention that the products using them, work.

Don't be an idiot. Electrical and electronics Industry uses
plastic sheeting for insulation all the time, there's
probably even one in your power supply, if not multiple
sheets. If you have some irrational fear of what'll happen
when you rub two sheets together in an effort to create ES,
might I suggest that you not try to create any?

Wrong. Electrical uses plastics, electrical not damaged by
voltages about 1000 volts. You have to look at ESD ratings.
You don't know about ESD. hoo humm,

You are being ridiculously oversimplistic. Some vague
concept about ESD, has to be applied to the actual scenario.
Yes, ESD exists, and there has to be a mechanism to cause,
and discharge, for there to be a problem. Likewise when
working with any computer components.

DOD-STD-1686 ESD/EOS 5.1 VOLTAGE RANGE
Equivalent

CLASS 1 CLASS 0 0 to <= 249
CLASS 1 CLASS 1A 250 to <= 499
CLASS 1 CLASS 1B 500 to <= 999
CLASS 1 CLASS 1C 1000 to <= 1,999
CLASS 2 CLASS 2 2000 to <= 3,999
CLASS 2 CLASS 3A 4000 to <= 7,999
CLASS 3 CLASS 3B >= 8000

Gee I guess you really are stupid. Hum. Let's see, buy a
hard drive and it comes in a ESD bag.

I do hope you eventually take it OUT of that bag to use it!

Buy an computer
part and it comes in a ESD bag.

.... and likewise, the part is removed from the bag to be
installed, the bag is not strapped to the part in the
system.

Humm, I just bought 100
diodes and they're shipped in an ESD bag. Humm why is that.

I hope you someday see beyond your oversimplified view.
This is done so that the parts are protected UNTIL they're
readied for use, and similarly so with the hard drive, it
should remain in it's ESD bag until installed... at which
point it is REMOVED from such bag,

Buy a motherboard and it comes in a ESD bag. humm?
Who the hell would by a Athlon AMD3200 in a zip lock bag.
Dooo! whta a dumb ass thing to do.

Do go ahead and skip right to the logically fallacy you
consider to be your point. Nobody ever claimed ESD doesn't
exist. Now fast-forward from protective packaging to actual
part usage.

Buy a cap, resistor, transformer, how the hell can a
passive part be damaged by any voltage that will ESD
zap an 'ELECTRONIC' component? A component made with
silicon; TTL IC, CMOS IC, diodes 1n4001 sold by any
diode mfg. is shipped in an ESD bag, becasue it can
zap by a ESD discharge. ho humm,

I don't know how to break this to you, but this is not news
to me, it's not advancement of your argument but a
side-track from the central issue. I encourage you to open
your system and count all the semiconductors still wrapped
in anti-static baggies.

Instead of plastic sheet, have you heard of conformal coat
spray used in the electronics industry?

Yep, it is NEVER used for direct mechanical contact between
parts that need insulation.

Wrong. MIL spec PCBs boards are dipped in conformal coat.

No, the conformal coating is NOT anti-abrasive, it is a
sealing agent only, not a mechanical insulator.. It is not
used in place of plastic sheeting. You haven't a clue.

Conformal coated boards are then assembled in said chassis.

Yes, on standoffs, plastic sheeting, or other methods which
isolate the board. The conformal coating is never called
upon to take this role.

That typically means screwed down with metal hardware (not
really, stand offs ?), conformal PCBs slid into card slots,
card guides. This is mechanical contact that need insulation,
don't want to short out a PCB now. You don't know, not
enough experience.

It's sad when someone like yourself gets so far away from
reality that they'll never be able to relearn things
correctly. NO, there is no properly engineered card where a
conformal coating is called upon to insulate a card from a
card guide. The card has the allowance for this contact
region, engineered onto it, either an isolated region or a
ground. I hope you never actually have to depend on this
illusions you've suggested, nor that anyone else ever does.

Well that's a bad idea you'll probably over spray.

If it weren't for the part about it being entirely unsuited
to the task, overspray would not be a problem so long as any
possible air intake areas were covered first. Carefully
masking around an area is a time-proven way to do this but
it's beside the point, this is not a suitable alternative
for insulation purposes of the drive.


Conformal coat spray comes in mainly 3 different ratings,
silicone (gc chemicals makes this spray) and gives up
to 10,000 volts of barrier protection at 5 to 10 mils.
Heavy duty silicone conformal spray, gives bigger voltage
barrier. And then the bad cancer causing stuff used for
MIL boards, which no can buy anyway.

Sure, it can and does insulate. That doesn't mean it also
has the other properties necessary for mechanical fitness
like abrasion resistance. I suggest that you stop guessing
and take a good hard look at some (any) electronics
products, as I"d love to hear of any that are using
conformal coating as an insulator against a mechanical
contact between conductive metals.

I doubt that the assembly of a HD in a chassis is going to
experience over 10,000 volts or static zap. So Silicone
conformal coat spray is a suitable viable option.
But if you've never done before this, forget.

I recommend that anyone reading this, completely ignore you.
There is no need to start spraying conformal coating on
anything, it'll just make a mess and there is still a more
robust insulator needed, IF there are actually any potential
points of electrical contact between the laptop bay and the
drive PCB.

Wrong, uhh, Fish paper has a MSDS and you can buy fish paper
in different voltage levels, ex. 10,000 volts is common form
any electronic surplus store. You can buy fish paper for higher
rated voltages. And this higher rated stuff is for 'Electrical'
insulation, not electronic. I've seen up to 60,000 volt break
down fish paper, so says the mfg MSDS, don't you know?

One would hope that after you're done with all this
babbling, you manage to pay attention to what you're doing
instead of rubbing sheets of plastic together trying to
create ESD, and thus, you won't have 60,000 volts to worry
about. Ever heard of "Fire Marshall Bill"?

Paper or cardboard is not a a suitable material because it
can not provide any barrier against voltage, it is not an
insulator. white paper or cardboard out gasses chlorine
causing corrosion but what do you know? so far not much.

Actually just about any kind of paper or cardboard suitable
thick would work. This is a one-shot installation of a
part, and like all the other parts scenarios you foolishly
overlook, it does not need continual protection against
60,000 voltage, only to be installed in a ESD safe
environment and be an effective insulator against 5V, but as
importantly, be mechanically sound from an abrasion and
puncture standpoint if the drive is putting pressure on it.

It's somewhat amazing that you take such pains to make even
simple things, as difficult as possible. Perhaps you should
just focus on same things the entire industry does, that the
key is proper handling form the time the part is removed
from the bag, until installed in the equipment. Unless
you're a tool that's going to be continually shuffling
around on your carpeting then trying to discharge your
finger on the back of the hard drive circuit board, you do
not have a need to continually protect against very high
voltage. In other words Fire Marshall Bill, I'm sure if you
try hard enough you can manage to damage something- now
might I suggest you just blindly follow industry standard
procedures which are demonstrated to work, instead?

This need is easily met, you're making a mountain into a
molehill.

Typical tech spew. You have to think about the problem and
find the correct solution.

Then why have you drifted off on a tangent instead?

Not act, like a typical garage
tech junkie. Junk makes junk.

I look forward to seeing pictures of your entire system
dismantled so you can spray conformal coating over
everything before placing each piece back in anti-static
bags. That's the easy part- I want to see how you'll use
the system like that.

 

[newtype]

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in news:biq8q1tukg3padlu83g2vtra37u9c4a75j@
4ax.com:

On 17 Dec 2005 11:04:52 GMT, newtype
res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in news:91b7q19cu6bsqun46ekd3sqtg3hp7vk1oa@
4ax.com:

On 17 Dec 2005 02:46:54 GMT, newtype
res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:

A simple sheet of plastic will be bad news for ESD,
it will charge up to 10,000 volts if you rub it together.

Rub it together with what, exactly?

Rub it with itself, what else? Duhh.

How would you propose to do this?
Fold it over, or cut it in half and pretend you're a cricket
during mating season? I hardly think that's a realistic
scenario unless someone is trying to do it.

Oh yeah, you don't about ESD damage. experiment 101, get a
ESD Static filed meter. Rub plastic together and bring it
1" from ESD meter, reading will be above 6,000 maybe to
15,000 volts. Simple triboelectric charging experiment.
Look up Triboelectric charging.

So what's the point exactly?

The point is you don't know the difference between
"Electrical" and "Electronic". You speak of plastic, !?
You don't even know the difference between plastics?
What kind of plastics are you talking about?
Poly ethylene, styrene, acrylic, mylar ?

What plastic are you referring to? You Don't Know Yourself,
what plastic your talking about. Common plastic? What is
that? Plastic is just a word, and comprises of hundredes
of mixturers of chemicals. Burn those chemicals and you can
get cancer. I told you to look at teh triboelectric series.
The triboelectric series is a list of materials, that when
rubed together, just three times, and measure, either material
will charge positive or negative.

You don't know the difference between Electrical or Electronic.
Mfg.s ship in 'plastic' all the time, means you don't know the
difference between Electrical or Electronic. I come across guys
like you all the time, who don't give a shit, your kind are
a dime a dozen, you don't know.

the triboelectric series

MATERIAL CHARGE

AIR + Positive
HUMAN HANDS
ASBESTOS
RABBIT FUR
PHENOLIC
CELLULOSE ACETATE
GLASS
QUARTZ
MICA
HUMAN HAIR
NYLON
WOOL
FUR
LEAD
SILK
ALUMINUM
PAPER
COTTON (reference point)
STEEL
WOOD
AMBER
SEALING WAX
HARD RUBBER
NICKEL, COPPER
BRASS, SILVER
GOLD, PLATINUM
SULFUR
ACETATE RAYON
Acrylic
POLYESTER
Styrene (Styrofoam)
CELLULOID
Cellophane Tape
ORLON
Vinylite
Rubber Ballon
SARAN
Polyurethane
Polyethylene
Polypropylene
PVC (vinyl)
kel-F (ctfe)
SILICON
TEFLON
Silicone Rubber (RTV) - Negative

Ok, let's play Devil's advocate- It's a bad idea to take
multiple pieces of plastic, rub them together trying to
create an ESD charge then try to discharge it through the
hard drive PCB. With that out of the way, like I already
wrote manufacturers use plastic sheeting all the time for
insulation and not ESD preventative types, just plain old
plastic.

The point is you don't know the difference between
"Electrical" and "Electronic"

Wrong again. You don't need different plastics, just the
same plastic, open and close a zip lock bag and you'll get
a charge above 3000 volts, enought to ESD zap an Electronic
component, NOT an Electrical component.

Who needs "multiple pieces of plastic" ? You keep changing
the configuration of the original problem? Where did
"multiple pieces of plastic" from ? Your made it up.

...."manufacturers use plastic sheeting all the time for
insulation"... Electrical manufacturers, NOT Electronic
manufacturers. RF coils ship in a ziplock bag. But who the
hell would ship a CPU, EEPROM, Flash Memory in a zip lock bag?

By your mental state, sure why not, to hell with ESD,
You don't have to give a hoot about ESD, dosen't exist,
just listen to me, Manufacturers ship stuff in plastic all
the time.

You're arbitrarily looking for a problem where there isn't
one, if you rub "something" against just about any circuit
board there is a theoretical potential for ESD, not just
some addition of a piece of plastic.

This arbitrary problem is a present day industry wide problem!

ESD is, yes, but trying hard to create some hypothetical
scenario is a pointless exercise,

Aren't you suppose to touch the PC metal chassis before
handling PCBs, hard drives, video cards, any card, IC?
I see it all the time, techs come into an office, walk across
carpet don't give a crap attitude, take PCB out or hard drive,
what ever, toss it on a desk, no ESD wriststrap.

Guys who probably read your spew and say "I don't have to
give a shit about ESD, fuk that nonsense" puting down the
facts of ESD protection. Your spew is " You Don't have to
give a shit about ESD damage, it does not exist. Just like
you don't know the difference between Electrical and
Electronic properties.


The rest of this thread is useless because "You Don't have
to give a shit about ESD damage, it does not exist"
mentality, hand waving dumb ass mentality. That's why things
break all the time, because of guys like you.

 

[kony]

On 17 Dec 2005 23:02:00 GMT, newtype
<res808c4@earthlink.net> wrote:

The point is you don't know the difference between
"Electrical" and "Electronic".

I'm sure trying to claim this will align with some kind of
nonsense argument, one you intent to use to argue against
what the entire industry is doing, using plastic where you
are certain it can't be used. Perhaps you should start
arguing with manufacturers, as they certainly seem to be
under the impression that it works fine.

You speak of plastic, !?
You don't even know the difference between plastics?

You are an idiot.
I've not made any kind of misreferences to plastics.

What kind of plastics are you talking about?
Poly ethylene, styrene, acrylic, mylar ?

Want to know something funny?
It really doesn't matter in this case.
We don't have to care about the dielectric properties of
plastics because this is a 5V hard drive. The plastic is
not meant nor needing to protect against ESD! It is an
insulator, and that is all- against 5V.

What plastic are you referring to? You Don't Know Yourself,
what plastic your talking about. Common plastic? What is
that? Plastic is just a word, and comprises of hundredes
of mixturers of chemicals. Burn those chemicals and you can
get cancer.

It seems you have lost your own train of thought already,
drifting around in the nonsense off-topic abyss.
Since you seem confused, I suggest not lighting a notebook
on fire no matter what type of plastic is used as an
insulating sheet.

I told you to look at teh triboelectric series.
The triboelectric series is a list of materials, that when
rubed together, just three times, and measure, either material
will charge positive or negative.

Well now, as I mentioned previous, unless you're an idiot
trying to create a charge by playing with sheets of plastic,
none of this matters. I pity you if you can't even install
a piece of plastic without all these concerns.

There is no need to overengineer this for scenarios it won't
encounter. We don't have to care mucy at all what is used
so long as it does one simple thing- insulates 5V, and
continues to do so if there is wear from the hard drive, if
that drive is resting upon it.

You don't know the difference between Electrical or Electronic.

<yawn>

Grow up. You can't even do a simple thing and instead try
to drift around in ridiculous arguments.

Mfg.s ship in 'plastic' all the time, means you don't know the
difference between Electrical or Electronic. I come across guys
like you all the time, who don't give a shit, your kind are
a dime a dozen, you don't know.

Oddly, I'm not really caring what your opinion is.
I know what properties are needed for this plastic sheet but
you apparently don't. It's not a hard thing to do, for
"most" people. What I don't give a shit about is idiots
that know one fact but can't even apply that fact in a
useful way. We're not building a tesla coil here, if it
can't insulate against high voltage there is no concern.

Ok, let's play Devil's advocate- It's a bad idea to take
multiple pieces of plastic, rub them together trying to
create an ESD charge then try to discharge it through the
hard drive PCB. With that out of the way, like I already
wrote manufacturers use plastic sheeting all the time for
insulation and not ESD preventative types, just plain old
plastic.

The point is you don't know the difference between
Electrical" and "Electronic"

No, you just pulled it out of thin air because you're
looking to argue about anything and everything except the
main issue, what is and is not necessary to insulate a
notebook hard drive.

The funny part is how you go on about what I don't know,
when you don't appear competent to even evaluate the
criteria for selecting a suitable part for this job. I'd
hate to think how long it would take you to do something
moderately challenging.

Wrong again. You don't need different plastics, just the
same plastic, open and close a zip lock bag and you'll get
a charge above 3000 volts, enought to ESD zap an Electronic
component, NOT an Electrical component.

I don't recall advising anyone to put the drive in a plastic
bag and then start rubbing the sides together opening and
closing it. I even went so far as to suggest it was a bit
ridiculous to decribe such a rubbing of plastics together
since the task entails putting down one sheet of insulation.

How can it be that you are too confused to even see how
simple this task is to do correctly without all this
nonsense?

Who needs "multiple pieces of plastic" ? You keep changing
the configuration of the original problem? Where did
"multiple pieces of plastic" from ? Your made it up.

Nope, it was some idiot claiming rubbing them together,
deliberately, will generate a charge. Perhaps you should
reread your past posts.

..."manufacturers use plastic sheeting all the time for
insulation"... Electrical manufacturers, NOT Electronic
manufacturers. RF coils ship in a ziplock bag. But who the
hell would ship a CPU, EEPROM, Flash Memory in a zip lock bag?

By your mental state, sure why not, to hell with ESD,
You don't have to give a hoot about ESD, dosen't exist,
just listen to me, Manufacturers ship stuff in plastic all
the time.

Who do you think you're kidding?
Everyone ELSE knows the obvious- ship in ESD, remove from
ESD then implement the part. Same situation, different day.

ESD is, yes, but trying hard to create some hypothetical
scenario is a pointless exercise,

Aren't you suppose to touch the PC metal chassis before
handling PCBs, hard drives, video cards, any card, IC?

I already mentioned it, but apparently you now want to waste
more time trying to play "you know it all".
You know practically nothing, beause all you've done is
memorized some details without being able to USE the
information. All this nonsense about ESD materials
continues to ignore that these are for pre-handling
purposes, NOT implemented in the finished product. The
finished product is the ESD protection as much as there is
any, not a bag and not a sheet of plastic near an completely
enclosed and isolated (from the outside world) part.

I see it all the time, techs come into an office, walk across
carpet don't give a crap attitude, take PCB out or hard drive,
what ever, toss it on a desk, no ESD wriststrap.

If this is how you act, they probably do it just to annoy
you. I don't recall advising anyone NOT to take ESD
precautions, just the opposite- BECAUSE one takes ESD
precautions, they are not having to go on some silly
crusade for what you consider a hypothetically best sheet of
plastic. Again, major manufacturers demonstrate it all the
time, in electrical AND electronic equipment.

Guys who probably read your spew and say "I don't have to
give a shit about ESD, fuk that nonsense" puting down the
facts of ESD protection.

My claim is simply that you're an idiot and we can
completely ignore your BS about the requirements of this
insulating sheet. I have not once claimed there should be
any less regard for proper ESD saftey during drive prep and
installation.

Your spew is " You Don't have to
give a shit about ESD damage, it does not exist. Just like
you don't know the difference between Electrical and
Electronic properties.

I do hope you manage to screw your head on well enough to be
productive, someday.

In the meantime, please ignore my prior suggestion to check
some gear for plastic, as I don't think you're in any
condition to do so safely.

The rest of this thread is useless because "You Don't have
to give a shit about ESD damage, it does not exist"
mentality, hand waving dumb ass mentality. That's why things
break all the time, because of guys like you.

 

newtype wrote:

Who the hell would by a Athlon AMD3200 in a zip lock bag.
Dooo! whta a dumb ass thing to do.

There are metal-coated zip lock bags. I know this because several
times I've yelled at a certain individual who always rips them open
instead of undoing the zip lock seal so the bags could be reused.

Good ESD handling practices greatly reduce mysterious failures.

 

[newtype]

beerspill@whoever.com wrote in news:1134877112.214135.49440
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

newtype wrote:
Who the hell would by a Athlon AMD3200 in a zip lock bag.
Dooo! whta a dumb ass thing to do.

There are metal-coated zip lock bags. I know this because several
times I've yelled at a certain individual who always rips them open
instead of undoing the zip lock seal so the bags could be reused.
Good ESD handling practices greatly reduce mysterious failures.

Your talking about ESD safe anti-static mylar bags with ziploc
closure. The zip lock I point out for Kony@NYB ? is a clear
zip lock bag for food.