In need of a generator for storm outages--Suggestions?

[George Herold]

On Feb 28, 9:43 pm, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:

On 02/28/2011 06:33 PM, George Herold wrote:





On Feb 28, 8:53 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"<mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
George Herold wrote:

On Feb 28, 7:14 pm, "Tom Biasi"<tombi...@optonline.net>  wrote:
"W. eWatson"  wrote in message

news:ikgd29$tor$1@news.eternal-september.org...

I live in the foothills of the Sierra mountains, and in the winter
months we generally have one storm that knocks out power.  The amount of
time varies from a few hours to 3-5 days in the 12 years we've lived
here. We just had one outage last week that knocked us out for 12 hours.
I think it's time to consider a generator.

In the winter time we minimally need some minor lighting in a room or
two, power to at least one TV that uses DirecTV. We have a second such
TV, but could probably do with out it in such situations. Possibly we
might need to keep our heat working, but the indoor temp drops to about
55 for outside 25-40. We do have a wood burning stove, and plenty of
wood. It would probably be useful to have access to the internet with
two computers.

 From a prior experience considering this matter, I found that any
gasoline power-generator should be placed outside, probably on a
concrete pad and enclosed in a small "dog house" like structure.
Probably it needs lightning protection and likely placed significantly
away the house. 30-40 feet? It should be kept away from any propane tanks.

Possibly Honda generators are among the best. I would hire an
electrician to install the generator, etc. Comments?

I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater, electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

    Not by the NEC and i'm sure your local building inspector and
insurance company would have fits.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So what's the right way?  Doesn't turning off the knife switches on
the side of the house where the power comes in take care of 'things'?
I opened it up and looked in there.  (maybe that's illegal too?)

http://www.interlockkit.com/

This is cool -- and it looks like you could whomp up your own, and maybe
even pass inspection with it.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh that looks interesting. Thanks Tim... I was thinking in terms of
hundreds of dollars for an electrician to come in.

George H.

 

[amdx]

"W. eWatson" <wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:ikgd29$tor$1@news.eternal-september.org...

I live in the foothills of the Sierra mountains, and in the winter months
we generally have one storm that knocks out power. The amount of time
varies from a few hours to 3-5 days in the 12 years we've lived here. We
just had one outage last week that knocked us out for 12 hours. I think
it's time to consider a generator.

I went with one of these figuring it would have better resale value.
http://www.weldfabulous.com/Miller-907209-Bobcat-225-Kohler/Welders/Engine-Drive/Miller-Electric-p9087328.html
Mikek

 

[JeffM]

George Herold wrote:

I switch off the external power to the house

Pulling off the cover of your panel and REMOVING the Main breaker

would be closer to right.

I then have a AC plug with two 'prong' ends.
I stick one in the generator
and the other in the AC outlet in the shop.
Turn on the AC fuse for the shop outlet
and then switch on whatever I need in the house

Investigate how half of your house

is on one phase of the split phase feed from the utility
and why the other half will get nothing from your jerry rig
(unless the generator and dual-male plug are 240V).

 

[m II]

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Hash: SHA1



On 11-03-01 01:50 PM, JeffM wrote:

George Herold wrote:
I switch off the external power to the house

Pulling off the cover of your panel and REMOVING the Main breaker
would be closer to right.

They use 'hot sequence' metering in many localities, at least for 200
amps or less residential use. That means the hots from the power lines
go through the meter and directly to the main breaker.

It's not a good idea to be poking around that area. In many areas, there
is actually a safety wire through one of the top panel cover screws to
prevent easy entry.



mike


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[m II]

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Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-28 07:56 AM, W. eWatson wrote:

I live in the foothills of the Sierra mountains, and in the winter
months we generally have one storm that knocks out power. The amount of
time varies from a few hours to 3-5 days in the 12 years we've lived
here. We just had one outage last week that knocked us out for 12 hours.
I think it's time to consider a generator.

If it gets really cold, forget about anything propane powered. The
propane doesn't like vaporizing at low temperatures.

Diesels aren't much better. The thick engine oil makes them really hard
to get going in the winter.





mike


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[George Herold]

On Mar 1, 3:50 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
I switch off the external power to the house

Pulling off the cover of your panel and REMOVING the Main breaker
would be closer to right.

There's a metal box on the side of the house with a lever on the
side.

It's right below the meter.

I then have a AC plug with two 'prong' ends.
I stick one in the generator
and the other in the AC outlet in the shop.
Turn on the AC fuse for the shop outlet
and then switch on whatever I need in the house

Investigate how half of your house
is on one phase of the split phase feed from the utility
and why the other half will get nothing from your jerry rig
(unless the generator and dual-male plug are 240V).

Sure sure.. I've got both 'phases' out in the shop and have to switch
the plug around to turn on different stuff. I've got 240 out in the
shop, but no double male 240 plug. (once ever five years after
all)

George H.

 

[ehsjr]

George Herold wrote:

On Feb 28, 8:53 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

George Herold wrote:


On Feb 28, 7:14 pm, "Tom Biasi" <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

"W. eWatson" wrote in message

news:ikgd29$tor$1@news.eternal-september.org...

I live in the foothills of the Sierra mountains, and in the winter
months we generally have one storm that knocks out power. The amount of
time varies from a few hours to 3-5 days in the 12 years we've lived
here. We just had one outage last week that knocked us out for 12 hours.
I think it's time to consider a generator.

In the winter time we minimally need some minor lighting in a room or
two, power to at least one TV that uses DirecTV. We have a second such
TV, but could probably do with out it in such situations. Possibly we
might need to keep our heat working, but the indoor temp drops to about
55 for outside 25-40. We do have a wood burning stove, and plenty of
wood. It would probably be useful to have access to the internet with
two computers.

From a prior experience considering this matter, I found that any
gasoline power-generator should be placed outside, probably on a
concrete pad and enclosed in a small "dog house" like structure.
Probably it needs lightning protection and likely placed significantly
away the house. 30-40 feet? It should be kept away from any propane tanks.

Possibly Honda generators are among the best. I would hire an
electrician to install the generator, etc. Comments?

I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater, electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

Not by the NEC and i'm sure your local building inspector and
insurance company would have fits.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


So what's the right way? Doesn't turning off the knife switches on
the side of the house where the power comes in take care of 'things'?
I opened it up and looked in there. (maybe that's illegal too?)

George H.

The right way is a switch that makes it physically _impossible_
for the utility wiring to ever "see" the genset produced power.
Operating the switch disconnects power company wiring from
the circuit(s) that will receive power from the genset, and connects
the genset to the circuit(s) that will receive that power.
The knife switch you have only disconnects the circuit(s), and
it could be thrown to the on position while the genset is providing
power, allowing genset power to reach the utility company lines.

The correct switch is called a transfer switch. It is UL (or other
recognized testing lab) tested and listed for the purpose at the
correct voltage and current. The NEC allows the use of products
listed by UL or other recognized testing labs. Most local
jurisdictions adopt the National Electrical Code (NEC), and may
have additional local rules. For example, some allow the homeowner
to do his own wiring, some require that it be done by a licensed
electrician.

Ed

 

[Tom Biasi]

"George Herold" wrote in message
news:dbe9ae00-511f-4271-b573-b476427ed8be@8g2000prb.googlegroups.com...

I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater,
electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an
electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

George H.

Tom

It would but I don't know anyone who has one of those.

Tom

 

[George Herold]

On Mar 2, 1:23 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:
On Feb 28, 8:53 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

George Herold wrote:

On Feb 28, 7:14 pm, "Tom Biasi" <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

"W. eWatson"  wrote in message

news:ikgd29$tor$1@news.eternal-september.org...

I live in the foothills of the Sierra mountains, and in the winter
months we generally have one storm that knocks out power.  The amount of
time varies from a few hours to 3-5 days in the 12 years we've lived
here. We just had one outage last week that knocked us out for 12 hours.
I think it's time to consider a generator.

In the winter time we minimally need some minor lighting in a room or
two, power to at least one TV that uses DirecTV. We have a second such
TV, but could probably do with out it in such situations. Possibly we
might need to keep our heat working, but the indoor temp drops to about
55 for outside 25-40. We do have a wood burning stove, and plenty of
wood. It would probably be useful to have access to the internet with
two computers.

From a prior experience considering this matter, I found that any
gasoline power-generator should be placed outside, probably on a
concrete pad and enclosed in a small "dog house" like structure.
Probably it needs lightning protection and likely placed significantly
away the house. 30-40 feet? It should be kept away from any propane tanks.

Possibly Honda generators are among the best. I would hire an
electrician to install the generator, etc. Comments?

I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater, electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

  Not by the NEC and i'm sure your local building inspector and
insurance company would have fits.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So what's the right way?  Doesn't turning off the knife switches on
the side of the house where the power comes in take care of 'things'?
I opened it up and looked in there.  (maybe that's illegal too?)

George H.

The right way is a switch that makes it physically _impossible_
for the utility wiring to ever "see" the genset produced power.
Operating the switch disconnects power company wiring from
the circuit(s) that will receive power from the genset, and connects
the genset to the circuit(s) that will receive that power.
The knife switch you have only disconnects the circuit(s), and
it could be thrown to the on position while the genset is providing
power, allowing genset power to reach the utility company lines.

The correct switch is called a transfer switch.  It is UL (or other
recognized testing lab) tested and listed for the purpose at the
correct voltage and current.  The NEC allows the use of products
listed by UL or other recognized testing labs.  Most local
jurisdictions adopt the National Electrical Code (NEC), and may
have additional local rules. For example, some allow the homeowner
to do his own wiring, some require that it be done by a licensed
electrician.

Ed- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Ed, I'll have to talk to some local electricians. I don't mind
doing ~20A wiring. But a 200 Amp transfer switch, is another
matter.

George H.

 

[George Herold]

On Mar 2, 6:23 am, "Tom Biasi" <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

"George Herold"  wrote in message

news:dbe9ae00-511f-4271-b573-b476427ed8be@8g2000prb.googlegroups.com...



I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater,
electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an
electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

George H.



Tom

It would but I don't know anyone who has one of those.

Tom

Hey, you sorta know me. Should I take a picture and post it?

George H.

 

[Tom Biasi]

"George Herold" wrote in message
news:ffb99d83-0d24-409d-8d5c-9ded3eeba7c6@o21g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 2, 6:23 am, "Tom Biasi" <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

"George Herold" wrote in message

news:dbe9ae00-511f-4271-b573-b476427ed8be@8g2000prb.googlegroups.com...



I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater,
electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those
things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an
electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

George H.



Tom

It would but I don't know anyone who has one of those.

Tom

Hey, you sorta know me. Should I take a picture and post it?

George H.

No, I know what it is but you won't see them on the main going to the street
in Jersey only on sub-panels.

Tom

 

[Rich Grise]

Tom Biasi wrote:

"George Herold" wrote in message

I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater,
electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those
things. You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill
an electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

It would but I don't know anyone who has one of those.

The "big knife switch" is inside the main cutoff panel - it's the one

with the lump in the front cover: the lump is to clear the blades of
the BKS.

It also will have either a BMF breaker or a couple of mongo fuses.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

George Herold wrote:

Hey, you sorta know me. Should I take a picture and post it?

It's not necessary, but I'd sure welcome one.

I just posted that the BKS is inside the "main entrance panel," the one
with the lump on the front cover and either big fuses or a big breaker
inside.

I hope this is accurate.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[ehsjr]

George Herold wrote:

On Mar 2, 1:23 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:

George Herold wrote:

On Feb 28, 8:53 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

George Herold wrote:

On Feb 28, 7:14 pm, "Tom Biasi" <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

"W. eWatson" wrote in message

news:ikgd29$tor$1@news.eternal-september.org...

I live in the foothills of the Sierra mountains, and in the winter
months we generally have one storm that knocks out power. The amount of
time varies from a few hours to 3-5 days in the 12 years we've lived
here. We just had one outage last week that knocked us out for 12 hours.
I think it's time to consider a generator.

In the winter time we minimally need some minor lighting in a room or
two, power to at least one TV that uses DirecTV. We have a second such
TV, but could probably do with out it in such situations. Possibly we
might need to keep our heat working, but the indoor temp drops to about
55 for outside 25-40. We do have a wood burning stove, and plenty of
wood. It would probably be useful to have access to the internet with
two computers.

From a prior experience considering this matter, I found that any

gasoline power-generator should be placed outside, probably on a
concrete pad and enclosed in a small "dog house" like structure.
Probably it needs lightning protection and likely placed significantly
away the house. 30-40 feet? It should be kept away from any propane tanks.

Possibly Honda generators are among the best. I would hire an
electrician to install the generator, etc. Comments?

I use a Cummins gasoline powered gen set.
It does not need to be 25 feet from the house, just don't allow exhaust
fumes to enter your house.
I power everything except the big draws like electric water heater, electric
stove, and electric heat. I have other means to take care of those things.
You must use a transfer method that is approved. You could kill an electric
line worker by powering the line. Your power become HV after it hits the
pole transformer. The workers don't like that.

Doesn't turning off the big knife switch from the power line on the
side of the house take care of that?

Not by the NEC and i'm sure your local building inspector and
insurance company would have fits.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So what's the right way? Doesn't turning off the knife switches on
the side of the house where the power comes in take care of 'things'?
I opened it up and looked in there. (maybe that's illegal too?)

George H.

The right way is a switch that makes it physically _impossible_
for the utility wiring to ever "see" the genset produced power.
Operating the switch disconnects power company wiring from
the circuit(s) that will receive power from the genset, and connects
the genset to the circuit(s) that will receive that power.
The knife switch you have only disconnects the circuit(s), and
it could be thrown to the on position while the genset is providing
power, allowing genset power to reach the utility company lines.

The correct switch is called a transfer switch. It is UL (or other
recognized testing lab) tested and listed for the purpose at the
correct voltage and current. The NEC allows the use of products
listed by UL or other recognized testing labs. Most local
jurisdictions adopt the National Electrical Code (NEC), and may
have additional local rules. For example, some allow the homeowner
to do his own wiring, some require that it be done by a licensed
electrician.

Ed- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thanks Ed, I'll have to talk to some local electricians. I don't mind
doing ~20A wiring. But a 200 Amp transfer switch, is another
matter.

George H.

They have transfer switches that do not need to switch the
utility feeder. Instead, the 15, 20 or 30 amp branch circuit(s)
are switched, one at a time. Utility power can get to the branch
circuit through the main service panel with the transfer switch
in one position. Transferring the switch disconnects the branch
circuit from the main service panel (and thus from the utility
power) and connects that branch circuit to the genset power.

I am not suggesting that you should do it yourself - just
mentioning that switches exist that do not need to disconnect
the 200 amp feeder. Whether you do it yourself depends on what
your locality allows, and your skill. In my locality, not only
must the work be performed by a licensed pro, there must be a
permit for the work and an inspection when it is done. On top
of that, the local utility (Con Edison) sometimes, often, or
always (I don't know which) inspects the "power generation
facility" (I think that's what they call it) - what you and
I call the genset.

Ed

 

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, March 1, 2011 6:14:31 AM UTC-8, George Herold wrote:

On Feb 28, 9:43 pm, Tim Wescott <t....@seemywebsite.com> wrote:

http://www.interlockkit.com/

This is cool -- and it looks like you could whomp up your own, and maybe
even pass inspection with it.

Oh that looks interesting. Thanks Tim... I was thinking in terms of
hundreds of dollars for an electrician to come in.

It's not as cool if you consider that removing the steel face plate from
the breaker box removes the interlock gizmo, leaving all breakers
still connected. I'm comfortable with hiring a real electrician
to install a transfer switch, myself.

The 'maybe even pass inspection' comment is, of course, not a complete
reassurance.

 

[Rusty Oxhide]

For those who want to pinch pennies and not having a large demand for
watts, would it be possible to skip the buying of a generator and just
get an Inverter, plug into car cigarette lighter and leave car idling in
a well ventilated area?

Maybe with this set-up you could get a maximum 500 Watts on an AC
extension cord?

Rusty Oxhide

 

[Rich Grise]

Rusty Oxhide wrote:

For those who want to pinch pennies and not having a large demand for
watts, would it be possible to skip the buying of a generator and just
get an Inverter, plug into car cigarette lighter and leave car idling in
a well ventilated area?

Maybe with this set-up you could get a maximum 500 Watts on an AC
extension cord?

I once saw a hobbyist construction project where they took a horizontal-

shaft 'lawmower' motor and mounted it next to the car alternator with a
belt. It generated without the car engine running, saving heaps of gasoline.

Have Fun!
Rich

 

[P E Schoen]

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
news:ikrhfj$1ec$1@news.eternal-september.org...

I once saw a hobbyist construction project where they took a
horizontal-shaft 'lawmower' motor and mounted it next to the
car alternator with a belt. It generated without the car engine
running, saving heaps of gasoline.

I just bought two of these on sale for $99 each:
http://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators/800-rated-watts-900-max-watts-portable-generator-66619.html

I have not tried them yet. They run on 50:1 mixture (2-cycle engine)

Here are others:
http://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators.html

I also have a really old generator I bought from a junkyard for $40. It's
about 3000 watts but the gas engine has problems and I haven't felt like
digging into it.

You can also get inverters really cheap and then you can use various ways to
get 12-15 VDC to charge a battery. Even connect an alternator to a
stationary bike and use pedal power.

For emergency heat, if you don't have a wood stove, kerosene is safe and
stores well. Also good for lamps. It's good to be prepared for loss of
power, especially when large-scale power outages may become common due to
peak oil and problems with coal and nuclear alternatives. Small-scale solar
and wind are also good if local conditions are adequate. There are also
other ways to achieve self-sufficiency and a sustainable lifestyle:
http://www.harvestchapelmission.org/view/sustainable

Paul

 

[Tom Biasi]

"P E Schoen" wrote in message news:jRicp.16827$Ye1.3235@newsfe20.iad...

I just bought two of these on sale for $99 each:
http://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators/800-rated-watts-900-max-watts-portable-generator-66619.html

I have not tried them yet. They run on 50:1 mixture (2-cycle engine)
Snip..

Paul

Those will just about keep your coffee warm.

Tom

 

[P E Schoen]

"Tom Biasi" wrote in message news:4d726fc9$0$7595$607ed4bc@cv.net...

Those will just about keep your coffee warm.

Well, I have other options if I just want heat. It's silly to burn a fossil
fuel to generate electricity which is then converted to heat. The only real
need for electrical heating in my case is to power the heat tape that keeps
my pipes from freezing.

There are various levels of "necessities". I absolutely need potable water,
but I have a spring-fed stream that I could use, and I have a filtration
system and some bleach that I could use for purification. Just below that,
for survival, I need food and protection from environmental extremes. Easily
accomplished with canned food and items like beans and rice, and my wood
stove will keep the temperature reasonably warm. I have used kerosene
heaters and oil lamps, which are quite adequate for comfort and I can read
books.

Then there is the "need" to operate small appliances, such as fans, radios,
TVs, computers, etc. An 800 watt generator is perfectly adequate for those
purposes, although one might need to monitor total usage and perform manual
"load shedding". Many items can be run through an inverter powered by
batteries, which may be charged with the generator. My computer runs fine on
75 watts, and I could use a direct DC supply from external batteries kept
charged by wind or solar power.

Eventually a significant portion of the earth's population will need to
downsize their per capita energy consumption by conservation, shared
resources, and alternative sources. At this point, temporary power failures
are opportunities to learn these techniques and test our means for dealing
with it. The website I provided shows many ways we can become more
self-sufficient, and less damaging to our environment. Here it is again:
http://www.harvestchapelmission.org/view/sustainable

And here is an official document (suppressed by the Bush administration)
that should be taken seriously:
http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/oil_peaking_netl.pdf

Paul