IMSI Instant Engineer: Ok for simple dwgs?

[Richard Kanarek]

Hello again,

Regarding:

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:38:52 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
[snip]

Thanks for the hint, Richard. Then it might be better to look for
something else. The question is, what? I know the electronic CAD world
pretty well but not the mechanical one. Oh well, maybe I just put some
more WD40 on my old DOS-TurboCad and keep using it. If I figure out how
to do import and export I'd be humming. Other than that, there is still
that vellum pad from Clearprint. It has never crashed on me ;-)

I have been shopping for a new CAD program. Here are some of the
results of my search to get you started:

N.B. a. Order is mostly random.
b. I tried all of the programs mentioned, but not necessarily
extensively or the most recent versions.
c. All offer AutoCAD file format import/export (YMMV).
d. Given your stated preferences, you might want to give
particular attention to DeltaCAD.
e. You should inspect the EUA and copyright method of ANY
software package before buying it!
Example: DeltaCAD and, if I recall correctly, DesignCAD have
an excessively restrictive EUA in that you are only supposed
to install the program on one computer, but this rule isn't
enforced by their copy protection mechanism. The CAD programs
Concepts Unlimited/3d/2d have a like-a-book sort of license,
but (I'm told) the software must be activated on each
computer.


www.intellicadms.com
Possibly the cheapest of the IntelliCAD based CAD pkgs available. (Of
course, they may have other merits. Or one of the (not terribly) more
expensive compilations may be better suited to your uses/tastes).
AutoCAD-like user interface.

www.GiveMePower.com
Also produces AutoCAD'ish CAD software. IMHO, seems a notch higher in
quality than the IntelliCAD versions.
Caution: The 3D features in the Pro version are incomplete; it does 3D
rendering swell, but some necessary solids editing features are
missing.
Note: Can interact with surveying stuff. Don't know details; don't
care. <g>

www.deltacad.com
Very cheap. Win95 - Vista compatible. Probably as easy to use as any
(2D) CAD system could be, but still has lots of features. Probably not
under active development; probably doesn't need active development.
Might be, though.

www.smartsketch.com
Has most clever, refined CAD user interface ever? 2D only, and very
expensive (>$1000?)!
Note: They may still offer significant -- but not significant enough
-- discount for upgrades. Hint: Limited versions of SmartSketch could
be found bundled with older version of MathCAD for Windows (second
hint: think ebay ;-).

www.designcad.com
Was an expensive(ish), professional grade CAD program. Oodles of 2D
drawing commands; significant 3d capabilities ("3D MAX versions). Has
built-in, customizable plot file generator: particularly handy for
some applications. Efficient user interface; product of years of
refinement (and some years of degradation). Program was sold
repeatedly; numerous subsequent owners have taken it down market.
Much, much cheaper now. Last two version releases were buggy and
clearly done only to generate revenue. Future? (Does it matter?)

www.csi-concepts.com
Purchased by Punch Software. Mac & Win versions available. Three
different programs: Concepts Unlimited (nearly $2k!), Concepts 3D
($299?), and Concepts 2D ($99?). The Unlimited version does 2D & 3D
drafting and photo realistic rendering (?); The 3D does 2D and 3D
drafting/etc., but lacks the model space/paper space feature (for lack
of a better succinct term), the 2D version does 2D drafting, but also
has the model/paper space abilities missing from the 3D version (you
can always buy both ;-). Most remarkable for their extensive 3D
modeling and file export abilities (in a product of its price class).

On the Radar:

www.punchviacad.com
Since it is being released by Punch, who also purchased CSI-Concepts,
I'm hoping that Punch's ViaCAD (which may or may not be related to
Upperspace's extinct ViaCAD) will include Concepts 2D/3D abilities in
a more affordable price. We'll see...

General:
As you're particularly keen on AutoCAD file compatibility, you may
wish to visit www.opendesign.com and consider the offerings from their
"members."



Happy shopping!


Cordially
Richard Kanarek

 

[Joerg]

Richard Kanarek wrote:

Hello again,

Regarding:

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:38:52 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
[snip]

Thanks for the hint, Richard. Then it might be better to look for
something else. The question is, what? I know the electronic CAD world
pretty well but not the mechanical one. Oh well, maybe I just put some
more WD40 on my old DOS-TurboCad and keep using it. If I figure out how
to do import and export I'd be humming. Other than that, there is still
that vellum pad from Clearprint. It has never crashed on me ;-)


I have been shopping for a new CAD program. Here are some of the
results of my search to get you started:

N.B. a. Order is mostly random.
b. I tried all of the programs mentioned, but not necessarily
extensively or the most recent versions.
c. All offer AutoCAD file format import/export (YMMV).
d. Given your stated preferences, you might want to give
particular attention to DeltaCAD.
e. You should inspect the EUA and copyright method of ANY
software package before buying it!
Example: DeltaCAD and, if I recall correctly, DesignCAD have
an excessively restrictive EUA in that you are only supposed
to install the program on one computer, but this rule isn't
enforced by their copy protection mechanism. The CAD programs
Concepts Unlimited/3d/2d have a like-a-book sort of license,
but (I'm told) the software must be activated on each
computer.

I usually don't accept activate-on-one-machine versions. I always keep
licenses legal, there is nobody here who could use it in parallel but I
must be able to load it onto a laptop for the road and also onto a
desktop for easier viewing. If they don't allow that then the sales
concept is IMHO seriously flawed. IOW if they don't seem to understand
how CAD is frequently used I have my doubts about their ability to
design a system that works for people like me.

www.intellicadms.com
Possibly the cheapest of the IntelliCAD based CAD pkgs available. (Of
course, they may have other merits. Or one of the (not terribly) more
expensive compilations may be better suited to your uses/tastes).
AutoCAD-like user interface.

$417 is a bit much for something that will be used once in a blue moon.

www.GiveMePower.com
Also produces AutoCAD'ish CAD software. IMHO, seems a notch higher in
quality than the IntelliCAD versions.
Caution: The 3D features in the Pro version are incomplete; it does 3D
rendering swell, but some necessary solids editing features are
missing.
Note: Can interact with surveying stuff. Don't know details; don't
care. <g

LT seems to start at $99 which is reasonable.

www.deltacad.com
Very cheap. Win95 - Vista compatible. Probably as easy to use as any
(2D) CAD system could be, but still has lots of features. Probably not
under active development; probably doesn't need active development.
Might be, though.

Could fit the bill. The examples look a bit crude though with their
jagged lines and all that.

www.smartsketch.com
Has most clever, refined CAD user interface ever? 2D only, and very
expensive (>$1000?)!
Note: They may still offer significant -- but not significant enough
-- discount for upgrades. Hint: Limited versions of SmartSketch could
be found bundled with older version of MathCAD for Windows (second
hint: think ebay ;-).

$1500? I don't think so ...

www.designcad.com
Was an expensive(ish), professional grade CAD program. Oodles of 2D
drawing commands; significant 3d capabilities ("3D MAX versions). Has
built-in, customizable plot file generator: particularly handy for
some applications. Efficient user interface; product of years of
refinement (and some years of degradation). Program was sold
repeatedly; numerous subsequent owners have taken it down market.
Much, much cheaper now. Last two version releases were buggy and
clearly done only to generate revenue. Future? (Does it matter?)

The price is certainly right and so far I was happy with IMSI (but it
seems they bought this from another company). Thing is, if the last
versions are indeed buggy the only way to get an older one that works
seems to be EBay.

www.csi-concepts.com

"Connection refused". Not a good sign :-(

Purchased by Punch Software. Mac & Win versions available. Three
different programs: Concepts Unlimited (nearly $2k!), Concepts 3D
($299?), and Concepts 2D ($99?). The Unlimited version does 2D & 3D
drafting and photo realistic rendering (?); The 3D does 2D and 3D
drafting/etc., but lacks the model space/paper space feature (for lack
of a better succinct term), the 2D version does 2D drafting, but also
has the model/paper space abilities missing from the 3D version (you
can always buy both ;-). Most remarkable for their extensive 3D
modeling and file export abilities (in a product of its price class).

On the Radar:

www.punchviacad.com
Since it is being released by Punch, who also purchased CSI-Concepts,
I'm hoping that Punch's ViaCAD (which may or may not be related to
Upperspace's extinct ViaCAD) will include Concepts 2D/3D abilities in
a more affordable price. We'll see...

General:
As you're particularly keen on AutoCAD file compatibility, you may
wish to visit www.opendesign.com and consider the offerings from their
"members."

Pretty amazing that Verizon is a member there.

Happy shopping!

Thank you for the exhaustive and very informative post. Mechanical CAD
is quite foreign to me so that helps a lot.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Richard Kanarek]

Greetings,

Of course, I agree with you about EUAs/software licenses. If I can
read a copyrighted book anywhere I want, I should be able to use a
copyrighted software program on any computer I want.

Regarding DeltaCAD, the included/displayed sample drawings are
admittedly unimpressive. I'm not sure they do the program justice, but
(despite having *purchased* the program *twice* over the
years/decades) I'm not qualified to judge it. There is a free, time
limited trial version available (as there are for most of the other
programs I mentioned); you could try it (them) and see.

Regarding DesignCAD, while the latest version was flawed upon release,
I believe that the patches that have become available render it okay.
Since I have DCAD 14, and since DCAD 14 has a better help system, I
have not been using version 17. While I think that, as a DesignCAD
beginner, you'd be better off with DCAD 14 ("3D max" or
"(2D)Express"), I don't think you need to be afraid of version 17. You
may even want to upgrade to version 17 (assuming all goes well), on
the chance that the later program might have (even) better AutoCAD
file compatibility.

Oh, and about finding DCAD 14:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=designcad%2014

Regarding Concepts U/3/2, I've never had trouble reaching
www.csi-concepts.com (just tried it again: okay); are you sure all is
okay on your end?

Glad to have been of any small help!


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

 

[Joerg]

Richard Kanarek wrote:

Greetings,

Of course, I agree with you about EUAs/software licenses. If I can
read a copyrighted book anywhere I want, I should be able to use a
copyrighted software program on any computer I want.

Regarding DeltaCAD, the included/displayed sample drawings are
admittedly unimpressive. I'm not sure they do the program justice, but
(despite having *purchased* the program *twice* over the
years/decades) I'm not qualified to judge it. There is a free, time
limited trial version available (as there are for most of the other
programs I mentioned); you could try it (them) and see.

Then you should definitely be an expert on that program. It's just
puzzling why they put up such crummy drawings as examples. But if you
bought it then the SW must be good.

Reminds me of a reporter who had to live in Moscow with his family for a
stint when the iron curtain was still there. For his kind of job he
needed a car. Went to a Lada dealership. That was pretty much the only
mainstream brand you could buy, meaning competition didn't exist. There
were four different color models available and on display. One had a
flat tire. Another was missing both wipers and it was raining. The third
had a big dent. So they asked whether they could test drive number four.
"Sure". Turned the key, nada, zilch. It didn't start. Other than that
those cars were supposedly pretty sturdy.

Regarding DesignCAD, while the latest version was flawed upon release,
I believe that the patches that have become available render it okay.
Since I have DCAD 14, and since DCAD 14 has a better help system, I
have not been using version 17. While I think that, as a DesignCAD
beginner, you'd be better off with DCAD 14 ("3D max" or
"(2D)Express"), I don't think you need to be afraid of version 17. You
may even want to upgrade to version 17 (assuming all goes well), on
the chance that the later program might have (even) better AutoCAD
file compatibility.

Oh, and about finding DCAD 14:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=designcad%2014

Thanks. Are those companies reputable? Tried a few. No addresses on the
sites, never heard of them...

Regarding Concepts U/3/2, I've never had trouble reaching
www.csi-concepts.com (just tried it again: okay); are you sure all is
okay on your end?

Now it works.

Glad to have been of any small help!

Thank you, it sure was helpful.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Richard Kanarek]

Greetings,

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:38:47 -0800, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Richard Kanarek wrote:
[snip]
Regarding DeltaCAD, the included/displayed sample drawings are
admittedly unimpressive. I'm not sure they do the program justice, but
(despite having *purchased* the program *twice* over the
years/decades) I'm not qualified to judge it.

[snip]

Then you should definitely be an expert on that program. It's just
puzzling why they put up such crummy drawings as examples. But if you
bought it then the SW must be good.

I thought this line of reasoning might occur to you, which is why I
warned against it. <g>

The first time I purchased a license was on a lark, to run on a Win
3.1 computer (no, the purchase wasn't recent ;-). I discovered that I
preferred (and was used to) my DesignCAD derived CAD software (not to
mention my love of good old DOS), so I switched back. My second
purchase was far more recent, but otherwise similar. So, though I have
used DeltaCAD -- BRIEFLY, twice -- I am certainly no expert. Indeed,
my multiple purchases of DeltaCAD are (if you follow my reasoning)
more of a tribute to DesignCAD than to DeltaCAD itself.

Still, DeltaCAD does seem to match your stated needs/desires rather
well. It seems capable, reasonably straight forward to use (good for
infrequent users, presumably), and cheap. As I recall, the new version
also includes a copy of the Win 3.1 version, in case you want to
follow in my footsteps. <g> You could do worse than to try it, but DO
please yourself!

Oh, and about finding DCAD 14:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=designcad%2014


Thanks. Are those companies reputable? Tried a few. No addresses on the
sites, never heard of them...

I have no idea! I hope I didn't imply that I was recommending any of
the companies listed!

I have done business with the following company. It may or may not
have insisted upon sending me e-mail ads against my wishes, but I
can't recall (I know one company did ;-). I'm pretty sure I would
remember if it had absconded with my loot!

www.purplus.com
DesignCAD 15.3 3D MAX $8.95 + Shipping
(DCAD 14 Training CDROM also available)

DCAD 15's help works, but is less extensive than DCAD 14's (which
contained tutorials and more in addition to help). DCAD 15 may have
additional features over DCAD 14. You can download DCAD 14's help file
from "www.designcadunleashed.com" (towards bottom of page) and use it
separately, outside DCAD 15, if you wish.




Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

 

[john jardine]

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:1174181776.151882.86250@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
[...]

is an open standard.

As is PDF:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:AyIllpNZ14cJ:www.oclug.on.ca/archives/ocl

ug/2002-November/025275.html+rather.than.a.committee+Is.PDF.*.*.open.*+*-*-w
ithout-*-royalties+list+information+by.Adobe+complete-*-accurate-specificati
on

It's even a *Federally-recognized* open standard:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:b8-qDKolokYJ:nfbcal.org/nfb-rd/0598.html+

FIPS+Making-*-Adobe-PDF-a-FIPS-*-*-*-*-*-*+portable.document.format+miracle+
dragged+*-*-advised-that-NIST-*-develop-this-in-conjunction-with-the+Platfor
m.Independence+hypermail+open.format+1995+Federal.Information.Processing.Sta
ndard

Despite the doom and gloom of the poster's intro,
the proposal was accepted.

Don't know if you've had to program a DXF file converter but DXF is 'open'
only in the sense that Autocad allowed (reluctantly) a poorly documented
partial file breakdown to be officially published. I remember it was easier
and more accurate to back engineer DXF files than to refer to what Autocad
published.
Last I heard the PDF 'open' format was also of a similar quality but someone
must know something, as the 'Foxit' PDF reader is near infinitely superior
to the Adobe product
john



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Joerg]

Richard Kanarek wrote:

Greetings,

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:38:47 -0800, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Richard Kanarek wrote:

[snip]

Regarding DeltaCAD, the included/displayed sample drawings are
admittedly unimpressive. I'm not sure they do the program justice, but
(despite having *purchased* the program *twice* over the
years/decades) I'm not qualified to judge it.

[snip]

Then you should definitely be an expert on that program. It's just
puzzling why they put up such crummy drawings as examples. But if you
bought it then the SW must be good.


I thought this line of reasoning might occur to you, which is why I
warned against it. <g

The first time I purchased a license was on a lark, to run on a Win
3.1 computer (no, the purchase wasn't recent ;-). I discovered that I
preferred (and was used to) my DesignCAD derived CAD software (not to
mention my love of good old DOS), so I switched back. My second
purchase was far more recent, but otherwise similar. So, though I have
used DeltaCAD -- BRIEFLY, twice -- I am certainly no expert. Indeed,
my multiple purchases of DeltaCAD are (if you follow my reasoning)
more of a tribute to DesignCAD than to DeltaCAD itself.

Still, DeltaCAD does seem to match your stated needs/desires rather
well. It seems capable, reasonably straight forward to use (good for
infrequent users, presumably), and cheap. As I recall, the new version
also includes a copy of the Win 3.1 version, in case you want to
follow in my footsteps. <g> You could do worse than to try it, but DO
please yourself!


Oh, and about finding DCAD 14:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=designcad%2014


Thanks. Are those companies reputable? Tried a few. No addresses on the
sites, never heard of them...


I have no idea! I hope I didn't imply that I was recommending any of
the companies listed!

Some would not even take credit cards, only Paypal. Strange.

I have done business with the following company. It may or may not
have insisted upon sending me e-mail ads against my wishes, but I
can't recall (I know one company did ;-). I'm pretty sure I would
remember if it had absconded with my loot!

www.purplus.com
DesignCAD 15.3 3D MAX $8.95 + Shipping
(DCAD 14 Training CDROM also available)

Thanks! I just ordered it there. Didn't get the training CD because I am
not a fan of long narrated sessions. All I want to do is sketch ideas,
IOW replace the DOS TurboCad. What is nice about DesignCAD is that it
allows to scan in a hand drawing and build the final version from that
scan. Very handy when coming back from a trip without laptop. Or when
you have to work off some really old drawing from the days when CAD
meant slide rule calculator.

Oh, and Purplus has a Logitech QuickCam on sale for $8.95 so I threw
that in as well. It's missing the stand, maybe that is why they sell
them so low. Who cares? I am going to try whether I can do SMT assembly
without those 3x glasses, using camera and laptop. Supposedly does
640*480 which would be great. It's a CMOS sensor so will be grainy with
low light but that wouldn't be an issue here.

DCAD 15's help works, but is less extensive than DCAD 14's (which
contained tutorials and more in addition to help). DCAD 15 may have
additional features over DCAD 14. You can download DCAD 14's help file
from "www.designcadunleashed.com" (towards bottom of page) and use it
separately, outside DCAD 15, if you wish.

I have also seen a long PDF manual for DesignCad 14 somewhere. That
should help as well. Usually I figure it all out somehow. When I bought
Eagle I just loaded it and then stepped on it. I did eventually read the
book that came with it and I learned things from it but the only reason
was that a back problem had floored me for a few days.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[JeffM]

Joerg wrote:

is an open standard.

JeffM wrote
As is PDF

john jardine wrote:
Don't know if you've had to program a DXF file converter

Not so far. **Knocks wood**

but DXF is 'open' only in the sense
that Autocad allowed (reluctantly) a poorly documented
partial file breakdown to be officially published. I remember
it was easier and more accurate to back engineer DXF files
than to refer to what Autocad published.

Don't you just want to get out your Go To Hell gun at that point?

That kind of nonsense is one big reason that
my suggestion to Joerg was an open source app.
(Well, the *Windoze* build *does* use proprietary developers' tools.)

....then there's M$ and Adobe who constantly *extend* their formats
to "improve" their products and coincidently
(wink, wink; nudge, nudge) break compatibility with other vendors'
stuff.

Last I heard the PDF 'open' format was also of a similar quality
but someone must know something, as the 'Foxit' PDF reader
is near infinitely superior to the Adobe product

In the PDF arena I think it's that vendors only implement *parts* of

the spec
....then there's the **moving the goal line** thing I mentioned.

WRT *closed* formats,
there's a lot of that *parts of the spec* thing going on:
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=winehq+partial-implementation
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:G6vZhKnP8msJ:www.linux.com/print.pl?sid=06/11/08/1726205+*-*-*-large-portion-*-*-*-*-*+Noel+VBA+Windows+not.complete+qq+Visual-Basic-for-Applications

....and It looks like Joerg has an app lined up--for cheap.
Let's see: closed source; no longer under development.
Hmmm. It takes all kinds to make a world.

 

[Joerg]

JeffM wrote:

Joerg wrote:

And, gasp, [DXF] is an open standard.


JeffM wrote

As is PDF


john jardine wrote:

Don't know if you've had to program a DXF file converter


Not so far. **Knocks wood**


but DXF is 'open' only in the sense
that Autocad allowed (reluctantly) a poorly documented
partial file breakdown to be officially published. I remember
it was easier and more accurate to back engineer DXF files
than to refer to what Autocad published.


Don't you just want to get out your Go To Hell gun at that point?
That kind of nonsense is one big reason that
my suggestion to Joerg was an open source app.
(Well, the *Windoze* build *does* use proprietary developers' tools.)

...then there's M$ and Adobe who constantly *extend* their formats
to "improve" their products and coincidently
(wink, wink; nudge, nudge) break compatibility with other vendors'
stuff.


Last I heard the PDF 'open' format was also of a similar quality
but someone must know something, as the 'Foxit' PDF reader
is near infinitely superior to the Adobe product


In the PDF arena I think it's that vendors only implement *parts* of
the spec
...then there's the **moving the goal line** thing I mentioned.

WRT *closed* formats,
there's a lot of that *parts of the spec* thing going on:
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=winehq+partial-implementation
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:G6vZhKnP8msJ:www.linux.com/print.pl?sid=06/11/08/1726205+*-*-*-large-portion-*-*-*-*-*+Noel+VBA+Windows+not.complete+qq+Visual-Basic-for-Applications

...and It looks like Joerg has an app lined up--for cheap.
Let's see: closed source; no longer under development.
Hmmm. It takes all kinds to make a world.

Yep, just ordered DesignCad as Richard had suggested. I've never had any
bad luck with apps that are no longer under development. Heck, I am
using some where development has ended more than a decade ago ;-)

Thing is, my mechanical CAD needs are quite mundane. If it can't do
certain things I won't mind.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com