I Missed This One...

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:52:31 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:29:16 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:13:20 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 22.55.25 UTC+2 skrev tra...@optonline.net:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping..
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it. So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!


not quite like that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union

Here is the relevant part:

In recent years UPU members have encountered serious problems triggered by the enormous increase in e-commerce originating from the Far East, where the terminal dues do not cover the unit costs of delivery in the destination countries, and the volumes are so big that the losses cannot be compensated by better terminal dues from other traffic. In 2016, a new remuneration system was implemented with a focus on e-commerce,[13] but while the 2016 reform balanced the costs to the delivery services, postage costs for shippers are still asymmetric. As of 2018, US companies pay more than twice as much to mail an item from a US plant to a US customer than does a manufacturer in China to mail an item to a US customer.[14][15][16]

On October 17, 2018, the United States declared its withdrawal from the UPU, effective October 17, 2019, with the US planning to switch to self-declared rates.[17]



So, sounds like finally something is being done and it took Trump
to do it. They say the difference is more than 2X. From what I see
it could be a lot more, eg selling a thing that comes in a small
packet or box from China for $1 including shipping.

If you read the above carefully, you will see a false comparison. The comparison is end to end rates. Do you really expect the Chinese or anyone else to raise their rates for shipping to match what US customers pay?

No, but they should not be subsidizing them, keeping their rates artificially
low and having the USPS screwed by having to deliver packages here through
the US system at Chinese rates that are likely bogus, subsidized, to begin with.





That would be like telling Hyundai they had to pay their workers as much as we pay auto workers in the US!

It's nothing like that at all, because Hyundai isn't sending it's workers
through the US mail at some low, bogus South Korean rates.

The funny part is that by raising the rates to mail packages from outside the US, we are passing on extra costs to US buyers with little improvement in the competitiveness of US products. Do you really expect to see flash drives or USB cables or anything else that is typically sold from foreign markets to be sole more here? We lost the manufacturing battle a long time ago. We ain't winning that war.

It's not just a manufacturing issue. Those Chinese are shipping products
here at artificially low rates, rates at which the USPS loses money
and we pay higher postage rates to cover some of it. Do you like being
screwed? Did you read that link? Why should Chinese vendors be able
to ship things to someone in the US at less than half what it costs
the best US shippers to ship the product within the US?
Should we allow them to put more businesses under, competing
UNFAIRLY? But, figures you can't understand any of that. Looks like
in this case Trump does, he's withdrawing the US from the intl agreement
from the 1800s that allows this to happen.

 

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:05:22 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:

On 2019/06/06 2:29 p.m., trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:13:20 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 22.55.25 UTC+2 skrev tra...@optonline.net:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it. So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!


not quite like that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union

Here is the relevant part:

In recent years UPU members have encountered serious problems triggered by the enormous increase in e-commerce originating from the Far East, where the terminal dues do not cover the unit costs of delivery in the destination countries, and the volumes are so big that the losses cannot be compensated by better terminal dues from other traffic. In 2016, a new remuneration system was implemented with a focus on e-commerce,[13] but while the 2016 reform balanced the costs to the delivery services, postage costs for shippers are still asymmetric. As of 2018, US companies pay more than twice as much to mail an item from a US plant to a US customer than does a manufacturer in China to mail an item to a US customer.[14][15][16]

On October 17, 2018, the United States declared its withdrawal from the UPU, effective October 17, 2019, with the US planning to switch to self-declared rates.[17]



So, sounds like finally something is being done and it took Trump
to do it. They say the difference is more than 2X. From what I see
it could be a lot more, eg selling a thing that comes in a small
packet or box from China for $1 including shipping.


This decision was loosely based on a report inaugurated in August 2016
(remember Obama?) who made their recommendations in Sept, 2016:

https://www.hudson.org/research/13401-crisis-in-the-mail-fixing-a-broken-international-package-system

Previously this report came out which led to the above Hudson Report:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/08/united-states-postal-regulatory-commission-usps-universal-postal-union-united-nations-china-national-security/

However when you withdraw from international agreements unilaterally
then why should anyone deal with you (the United States)?

Because we're the country with the largest economy in the world and
we are a huge market, stupid.




Your country

will find it is much harder to get agreements with nations who were
friendly to you.

Yeah, right. They will just forget about the rich country with the
largest economy in the world.

A school yard bully gets his own way for a while - until everyone gangs
up on him/her. Which a lot of people in the USA are simply ignoring as a
consequence of these decisions. Your government is burning all your
bridges on the international stage.

This may not end well...

John

Do you work for MSNBC? CNN?
In this case, Trump is spot on. China should not be able to ship their
products here, using our USPS that's losing money, at artificially low
rates, ones that are a fraction of what it costs US shippers to send
something within the USA. Are you just totally stupid or suffering
from Trump derangement syndrome, where you have to say everything he does
is wrong?

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:32:38 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:52:31 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:29:16 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:13:20 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

not quite like that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union

Here is the relevant part:

In recent years UPU members have encountered serious problems triggered by the enormous increase in e-commerce originating from the Far East, where the terminal dues do not cover the unit costs of delivery in the destination countries, and the volumes are so big that the losses cannot be compensated by better terminal dues from other traffic. In 2016, a new remuneration system was implemented with a focus on e-commerce,[13] but while the 2016 reform balanced the costs to the delivery services, postage costs for shippers are still asymmetric. As of 2018, US companies pay more than twice as much to mail an item from a US plant to a US customer than does a manufacturer in China to mail an item to a US customer.[14][15][16]

On October 17, 2018, the United States declared its withdrawal from the UPU, effective October 17, 2019, with the US planning to switch to self-declared rates.[17]



So, sounds like finally something is being done and it took Trump
to do it. They say the difference is more than 2X. From what I see
it could be a lot more, eg selling a thing that comes in a small
packet or box from China for $1 including shipping.

If you read the above carefully, you will see a false comparison. The comparison is end to end rates. Do you really expect the Chinese or anyone else to raise their rates for shipping to match what US customers pay?

No, but they should not be subsidizing them, keeping their rates artificially
low and having the USPS screwed by having to deliver packages here through
the US system at Chinese rates that are likely bogus, subsidized, to begin with.

Again, your facts are not right. It's not "Chinese rates". The US Government is setting the rates.

That would be like telling Hyundai they had to pay their workers as much as we pay auto workers in the US!

It's nothing like that at all, because Hyundai isn't sending it's workers
through the US mail at some low, bogus South Korean rates.

Neither is anyone else. You don't read what I write.

The funny part is that by raising the rates to mail packages from outside the US, we are passing on extra costs to US buyers with little improvement in the competitiveness of US products. Do you really expect to see flash drives or USB cables or anything else that is typically sold from foreign markets to be sole more here? We lost the manufacturing battle a long time ago. We ain't winning that war.

It's not just a manufacturing issue. Those Chinese are shipping products
here at artificially low rates, rates at which the USPS loses money
and we pay higher postage rates to cover some of it. Do you like being
screwed? Did you read that link? Why should Chinese vendors be able
to ship things to someone in the US at less than half what it costs
the best US shippers to ship the product within the US?
Should we allow them to put more businesses under, competing
UNFAIRLY? But, figures you can't understand any of that. Looks like
in this case Trump does, he's withdrawing the US from the intl agreement
from the 1800s that allows this to happen.

You don't understand the facts. The numbers quoted are the TOTAL costs, both US and Chinese. Why should we have any say in what the Chinese charge for their end of the service? Their costs are undoubtedly lower than ours, so it makes perfect sense they don't have to charge as much as we do. We are setting the fees we charge the Chinese government for delivery of Chinese mail in the US and are raising those fees to be more representative of our costs.

You are misinterpreting the facts and seem to be so outraged you won't listen to what you are being told.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:46:26 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that.
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Not really. You say some stuff that comes from your emotions and expect me to have some idea of the logic involved when there really isn't any. That's the problem. You are all wound up about this and react to everything without giving it any real thought as I've explained several times pointing out that you have wrong facts or misinterpret the facts and you just rocket past any of that.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?

You state irrelevant data to support your wrong claims. I looked it up and told you how it works now. The US is setting rates that they have raised each year for several years now starting in 2014. So this is clearly not a Trump fix going on.


> In any event, China has to pay the USPS a bunch of money every year for the mail we deliver.

Yes, that is correct.

I dug around a bit and there is some truth to what you say, but your facts are all wrong.

ROFL. An obvious paradox.

Only if you don't read what I wrote. Yes, the US does not collect the full cost of delivering packages from China. Otherwise every one of your facts are not correct.

Fees were added to the treaty in 1969. Prior to that this was free. These fees were often not as high as charged to US customers. However, this is regular mail with no tracking. People want tracking now so the USPS has created a service called "ePacket" which includes tracking. This has a better result for the USPS. Also, rates have increased 13% every year from 2014 to 2017. The article in the Washington Post says, "the USPS actually makes an operating profit on this kind of international mail".

And yet the Chinese vendors are selling things for $1, with free shipping
from China through the USPS, while a US company has to pay more than
that just for shipping.

That is one of the few things you have gotten right.

Even so, the actual total cost is not very high. It is literally chump change in Washington.

The cost is China is screwing US businesses, competing unfairly.

You are greatly exaggerating this claim. The vast majority of the money most people spend is through US companies. The goods may have been made overseas but that is not the issue at hand. The $1 crap you keep touting is just that, crap that no one in the US would even think of selling other than Dollar Tree where everything is a dollar.

Who cares of US companies can't sell pipe cleaners... no, I just bought some of those here... well, they can't sell nail clippers... nope, I just bought some of those... well, there must be something you can't buy in the US because it costs too much! I just can't think of anything.

So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!

That's not the way it works.

That's exactly how it works, I have the items showing up in my mail box.
Good grief.

Your facts about the treaty are wrong, so all your conclusions from those facts are wrong.

This is an example of something very wrong, that was brought to the
attention of the feds decades ago, but no one gave a damn to fix it.
It was some guy in America who came up with a travel mug design,
he was selling it for like $7 plus shipping. Chinese vendors knocked
it off, violated his patents, and started selling it for less with free
shipping. He tried to get the govt to help him, but no one cared.

Do you expect the US government to get involved in patent dispute cases???

Where did that attempt at diversion to the wilderness come from?
If you're talking about China, what is actually going on is the Chinese
govt allows companies over there to flagrantly violate patents, to
illegally copy things, counterfeit things. They demand companies take
on China as joint partners to open factories there, then steal the
companies technology. All that is wrong and yes, I expect the US govt
to do something about it and Trump is right on all the above.

You complained that someone is ripping off the guy's patents. Do you really think if these people had to pay another $1 for shipping they would stop selling the mugs? Of course his problem is the patent! Otherwise there is never a way to stop the Chinese from undercutting his price. That's why US makers actually make stuff in China and import it. Are you really not aware of how the world works? The $1 vendors on eBay are of no significance in the economy. There are much bigger fish to fry.

That is a civil matter. The US government has taken actions to get the Chinese government to do more to enforce patents, trademarks and copyright.


BS. The Chinese have been screwing us for a long time. Trump is the
first one that has actually called them out for what they are doing
and trying to do something about it. I think he went about it in the
wrong way, but on the fundamental problems outlined above, he's right.

Yes, Trump will fix the eBay $1 vendor problem. Then it will become the eBay $2 vendor problem. lol

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that.
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?



In any event, China has to pay the USPS a bunch of money every year for the mail we deliver.

I dug around a bit and there is some truth to what you say, but your facts are all wrong.

ROFL. An obvious paradox.




Fees were added to the treaty in 1969. Prior to that this was free. These fees were often not as high as charged to US customers. However, this is regular mail with no tracking. People want tracking now so the USPS has created a service called "ePacket" which includes tracking. This has a better result for the USPS. Also, rates have increased 13% every year from 2014 to 2017. The article in the Washington Post says, "the USPS actually makes an operating profit on this kind of international mail".

And yet the Chinese vendors are selling things for $1, with free shipping
from China through the USPS, while a US company has to pay more than
that just for shipping.

Even so, the actual total cost is not very high. It is literally chump change in Washington.

The cost is China is screwing US businesses, competing unfairly.

So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!

That's not the way it works.

That's exactly how it works, I have the items showing up in my mail box.
Good grief.

This is an example of something very wrong, that was brought to the
attention of the feds decades ago, but no one gave a damn to fix it.
It was some guy in America who came up with a travel mug design,
he was selling it for like $7 plus shipping. Chinese vendors knocked
it off, violated his patents, and started selling it for less with free
shipping. He tried to get the govt to help him, but no one cared.

Do you expect the US government to get involved in patent dispute cases???

Where did that attempt at diversion to the wilderness come from?
If you're talking about China, what is actually going on is the Chinese
govt allows companies over there to flagrantly violate patents, to
illegally copy things, counterfeit things. They demand companies take
on China as joint partners to open factories there, then steal the
companies technology. All that is wrong and yes, I expect the US govt
to do something about it and Trump is right on all the above.



That is a civil matter. The US government has taken actions to get the Chinese government to do more to enforce patents, trademarks and copyright.
>

BS. The Chinese have been screwing us for a long time. Trump is the
first one that has actually called them out for what they are doing
and trying to do something about it. I think he went about it in the
wrong way, but on the fundamental problems outlined above, he's right.

 

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:39:32 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:32:38 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:52:31 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:29:16 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:13:20 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

not quite like that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union

Here is the relevant part:

In recent years UPU members have encountered serious problems triggered by the enormous increase in e-commerce originating from the Far East, where the terminal dues do not cover the unit costs of delivery in the destination countries, and the volumes are so big that the losses cannot be compensated by better terminal dues from other traffic. In 2016, a new remuneration system was implemented with a focus on e-commerce,[13] but while the 2016 reform balanced the costs to the delivery services, postage costs for shippers are still asymmetric. As of 2018, US companies pay more than twice as much to mail an item from a US plant to a US customer than does a manufacturer in China to mail an item to a US customer.[14][15][16]

On October 17, 2018, the United States declared its withdrawal from the UPU, effective October 17, 2019, with the US planning to switch to self-declared rates.[17]



So, sounds like finally something is being done and it took Trump
to do it. They say the difference is more than 2X. From what I see
it could be a lot more, eg selling a thing that comes in a small
packet or box from China for $1 including shipping.

If you read the above carefully, you will see a false comparison. The comparison is end to end rates. Do you really expect the Chinese or anyone else to raise their rates for shipping to match what US customers pay?

No, but they should not be subsidizing them, keeping their rates artificially
low and having the USPS screwed by having to deliver packages here through
the US system at Chinese rates that are likely bogus, subsidized, to begin with.

Again, your facts are not right. It's not "Chinese rates". The US Government is setting the rates.

Yeah, this from the guy who earlier today told us that it's "not hard"
to buy a machine gun in the US. Are you as sure about who sets the
shipping rates as you were about that? Why would the US screw itself,
screw the USPS, by setting rates absurdly low? So low that you can buy
a cable from China with shipping to your home included for $1? Hello?
Those rates are set by the UPU and US companies and the USPS are getting
SCREWED? It would cost the US company $1 just to ship the thing across
the US. That sounds fair to you?

This isn't something I made up, it's well documented.

That would be like telling Hyundai they had to pay their workers as much as we pay auto workers in the US!

It's nothing like that at all, because Hyundai isn't sending it's workers
through the US mail at some low, bogus South Korean rates.

Neither is anyone else. You don't read what I write.

The Chinese are using the US mail system to deliver packages at rates
that are less than half of what US companies pay to ship the same
item within the USA. Does that sound right to you?

The funny part is that by raising the rates to mail packages from outside the US, we are passing on extra costs to US buyers with little improvement in the competitiveness of US products. Do you really expect to see flash drives or USB cables or anything else that is typically sold from foreign markets to be sole more here? We lost the manufacturing battle a long time ago. We ain't winning that war.

It's not just a manufacturing issue. Those Chinese are shipping products
here at artificially low rates, rates at which the USPS loses money
and we pay higher postage rates to cover some of it. Do you like being
screwed? Did you read that link? Why should Chinese vendors be able
to ship things to someone in the US at less than half what it costs
the best US shippers to ship the product within the US?
Should we allow them to put more businesses under, competing
UNFAIRLY? But, figures you can't understand any of that. Looks like
in this case Trump does, he's withdrawing the US from the intl agreement
from the 1800s that allows this to happen.

You don't understand the facts.

This from the guy who just told us that "it's not hard" to buy a machine
gun in the USA.




The numbers quoted are the TOTAL costs, both US and Chinese. Why should we have any say in what the Chinese charge for their end of the service? Their costs are undoubtedly lower than ours, so it makes perfect sense they don't have to charge as much as we do. We are setting the fees we charge the Chinese government for delivery of Chinese mail in the US and are raising those fees to be more representative of our costs.

No we are not setting those rates. If we were, the govts of past or right
now Trump, would be able to just raise the rates. He can't


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-24/trump-seeks-changes-in-the-international-postal-rate-system

The U.S. Postal Service currently collects below-cost payments, called terminal dues, to deliver small packages under 4.4 pounds from international shippers. These payments, set by the UPU, are being exploited, manufacturers say, by Chinese counterfeiters using e-commerce to flood the American market with cheap goods, delivered at much lower cost than goods shipped domestically, Bloomberg Government reported in April.

You are misinterpreting the facts and seem to be so outraged you won't listen to what you are being told.

This from the guy who just told us that it's "not hard to buy a machine gun
in the USA".

 

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:41:33 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:46:26 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that.
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Not really. You say some stuff that comes from your emotions and expect me to have some idea of the logic involved when there really isn't any. That's the problem. You are all wound up about this and react to everything without giving it any real thought as I've explained several times pointing out that you have wrong facts or misinterpret the facts and you just rocket past any of that.

Sure, this coming from the dope that just told us it's "not hard to buy a
machine gun in the USA". And who keeps asking what's your point? And
who keeps claiming I said things, like there should be no restrictions
on weapons", when I never said any such thing.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping..
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?

You state irrelevant data to support your wrong claims. I looked it up and told you how it works now. The US is setting rates that they have raised each year for several years now starting in 2014. So this is clearly not a Trump fix going on.

Wrong, wrong again. The US doesn't set the rates, the UPU does. If
the US set the freaking rates, then the US/Trump, could just raise those
rates. Duh? We can't raise them because of an international treaty
and the UPU. THAT is why Trump is withdrawing from the UPU. Capiche?

Why is it that you silly libs always side with some foreign country
that is screwing the US? It's even better when it's a commie country
like China, right? They are shipping stuff here, with the price of the item
and the shipping together being less than it costs a company in the
USA to ship the same thing within the USA. You'd think that even a lib
would recognize that it's not right, not fair. But nooooooo.
Commies are right, the USA, especially anything that Trump does, has to
be wrong.

 

[John Robertson]

On 2019/06/06 4:37 p.m., trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:05:22 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
On 2019/06/06 2:29 p.m., trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 5:13:20 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 22.55.25 UTC+2 skrev tra...@optonline.net:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it. So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!


not quite like that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union

Here is the relevant part:

In recent years UPU members have encountered serious problems triggered by the enormous increase in e-commerce originating from the Far East, where the terminal dues do not cover the unit costs of delivery in the destination countries, and the volumes are so big that the losses cannot be compensated by better terminal dues from other traffic. In 2016, a new remuneration system was implemented with a focus on e-commerce,[13] but while the 2016 reform balanced the costs to the delivery services, postage costs for shippers are still asymmetric. As of 2018, US companies pay more than twice as much to mail an item from a US plant to a US customer than does a manufacturer in China to mail an item to a US customer.[14][15][16]

On October 17, 2018, the United States declared its withdrawal from the UPU, effective October 17, 2019, with the US planning to switch to self-declared rates.[17]



So, sounds like finally something is being done and it took Trump
to do it. They say the difference is more than 2X. From what I see
it could be a lot more, eg selling a thing that comes in a small
packet or box from China for $1 including shipping.


This decision was loosely based on a report inaugurated in August 2016
(remember Obama?) who made their recommendations in Sept, 2016:

https://www.hudson.org/research/13401-crisis-in-the-mail-fixing-a-broken-international-package-system

Previously this report came out which led to the above Hudson Report:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/08/united-states-postal-regulatory-commission-usps-universal-postal-union-united-nations-china-national-security/

However when you withdraw from international agreements unilaterally
then why should anyone deal with you (the United States)?

Because we're the country with the largest economy in the world and
we are a huge market, stupid.




Your country
will find it is much harder to get agreements with nations who were
friendly to you.

Yeah, right. They will just forget about the rich country with the
largest economy in the world.




A school yard bully gets his own way for a while - until everyone gangs
up on him/her. Which a lot of people in the USA are simply ignoring as a
consequence of these decisions. Your government is burning all your
bridges on the international stage.

This may not end well...

John

Do you work for MSNBC? CNN?
In this case, Trump is spot on. China should not be able to ship their
products here, using our USPS that's losing money, at artificially low
rates, ones that are a fraction of what it costs US shippers to send
something within the USA. Are you just totally stupid or suffering
from Trump derangement syndrome, where you have to say everything he does
is wrong?

You didn't bother to read the recommendations did you? They show how the
US is getting a raw deal and recommended simple to implement ways to
improve the situation WITHIN the UPS. China was already paying the US
government funds to offset the lower postage rates they enjoy, but China
made an economic decision to subsidize their markets. There are methods
to counter that which were relatively simple to implement and would not
piss off the other trading partners of the USA.

"A senior administration official said the administration would prefer
to stay within the union and that a full withdrawal takes a year to
implement and that he hopes the U.S. can negotiate more favorable terms
within that time frame."

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/17/trump-withdraws-from-postal-treaty-910675

However Trump is happily shedding allies left, right, and centre so the
hopes of the unnamed senior bureaucrat may not be realized.

You don't listen to anyone but the POTUS do you? Is he your golden calf?
Can you not critically evaluate information you encounter?

John

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:23:03 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:41:33 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:46:26 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v.. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that.
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Not really. You say some stuff that comes from your emotions and expect me to have some idea of the logic involved when there really isn't any. That's the problem. You are all wound up about this and react to everything without giving it any real thought as I've explained several times pointing out that you have wrong facts or misinterpret the facts and you just rocket past any of that.

Sure, this coming from the dope that just told us it's "not hard to buy a
machine gun in the USA". And who keeps asking what's your point? And
who keeps claiming I said things, like there should be no restrictions
on weapons", when I never said any such thing.

I quoted your words and asked you to explain what you meant. Instead of discussing the issue you just want to flame and rant.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?

You state irrelevant data to support your wrong claims. I looked it up and told you how it works now. The US is setting rates that they have raised each year for several years now starting in 2014. So this is clearly not a Trump fix going on.

Wrong, wrong again. The US doesn't set the rates, the UPU does. If
the US set the freaking rates, then the US/Trump, could just raise those
rates. Duh? We can't raise them because of an international treaty
and the UPU. THAT is why Trump is withdrawing from the UPU. Capiche?

Ok, you are right, I misread that the US was raising the rates. But the rates are increasing...

"At the latest round of negotiations in 2012, countries did agree to raise fees slightly. The United States will get to charge about 13 percent more every year from 2014 to 2017."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/?utm_term=.830785956080

Why is it that you silly libs always side with some foreign country
that is screwing the US?

See, this is the emotional thing I was talking about. Instead of discussing the real issues, you have read a bunch of half truths and gotten wigged out over what is actually an insignificant issue. Then when someone wants to discuss the issue rationally you start calling them names and making up stuff about supporting other countries.

It's even better when it's a commie country
like China, right? They are shipping stuff here, with the price of the item
and the shipping together being less than it costs a company in the
USA to ship the same thing within the USA. You'd think that even a lib
would recognize that it's not right, not fair. But nooooooo.
Commies are right, the USA, especially anything that Trump does, has to
be wrong.

Lol! I haven't heard anyone call them "commies" in a long time. You so focus on the shipping as if that was the reason why US makers can't sell the same stuff. NO ONE IN THE US CAN MAKE THE STUFF AS CHEAP AS CHINA CAN MAKE IT!!!! It wouldn't matter if the US vendor got free shipping. Oh, you are talking about US vendors buying Chinese stuff and trying to compete by being a cheaper retailer? Lol, that's even more funny.

What exactly are you talking about? Which companies in the US are actually trying to compete in these market space? Who would prosper if they had cheap shipping?

Why not calm down, take a deep breath, count to 10. Then think about what you are really upset about.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:47:05 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:

John

Do you work for MSNBC? CNN?
In this case, Trump is spot on. China should not be able to ship their
products here, using our USPS that's losing money, at artificially low
rates, ones that are a fraction of what it costs US shippers to send
something within the USA. Are you just totally stupid or suffering
from Trump derangement syndrome, where you have to say everything he does
is wrong?


You didn't bother to read the recommendations did you? They show how the
US is getting a raw deal and recommended simple to implement ways to
improve the situation WITHIN the UPS. China was already paying the US
government funds to offset the lower postage rates they enjoy, but China
made an economic decision to subsidize their markets. There are methods
to counter that which were relatively simple to implement and would not
piss off the other trading partners of the USA.

Sure, according to you. All the articles I've read say otherwise.
And a couple decades of experience show that nothing was being done
about it either. Trump is doing something. And he didn't just pull
the US out of it either. He said, either fix it or we withdraw.
So, if it's so "fixable", like you claim, why didn't they just fix it?

"A senior administration official said the administration would prefer
to stay within the union and that a full withdrawal takes a year to
implement and that he hopes the U.S. can negotiate more favorable terms
within that time frame."

Bingo and it's been 6 months. Has it been fixed? No. And had Trump
not started the action, for sure nothing would have been done.
So, what's your problem? Trump derangement syndrome?

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/17/trump-withdraws-from-postal-treaty-910675

However Trump is happily shedding allies left, right, and centre so the
hopes of the unnamed senior bureaucrat may not be realized.

You don't listen to anyone but the POTUS do you? Is he your golden calf?
Can you not critically evaluate information you encounter?

John

Bingo! It is Trump derangement syndrome, thanks for proving that.
I don't like Trump, I don't like a lot of what he does. But I'm fair
and objective and when he's right, he's right. On this, on the
immigration fiasco at the border, on China abusing the US by stealing
intellectual property, forcing companies into joint partnerships,
violating patents, allowing counterfeiting, he's right.

 

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:41:47 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:23:03 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:41:33 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:46:26 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that..
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Not really. You say some stuff that comes from your emotions and expect me to have some idea of the logic involved when there really isn't any. That's the problem. You are all wound up about this and react to everything without giving it any real thought as I've explained several times pointing out that you have wrong facts or misinterpret the facts and you just rocket past any of that.

Sure, this coming from the dope that just told us it's "not hard to buy a
machine gun in the USA". And who keeps asking what's your point? And
who keeps claiming I said things, like there should be no restrictions
on weapons", when I never said any such thing.

I quoted your words and asked you to explain what you meant. Instead of discussing the issue you just want to flame and rant.


Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?

You state irrelevant data to support your wrong claims. I looked it up and told you how it works now. The US is setting rates that they have raised each year for several years now starting in 2014. So this is clearly not a Trump fix going on.

Wrong, wrong again. The US doesn't set the rates, the UPU does. If
the US set the freaking rates, then the US/Trump, could just raise those
rates. Duh? We can't raise them because of an international treaty
and the UPU. THAT is why Trump is withdrawing from the UPU. Capiche?

Ok, you are right, I misread that the US was raising the rates. But the rates are increasing...

Wow, the rates are increasing marginally, when US shippers are at over
a 2X disadvantage. Again, always taking the side of foreign countries
that are screwing us, making excuses for them.

"At the latest round of negotiations in 2012, countries did agree to raise fees slightly. The United States will get to charge about 13 percent more every year from 2014 to 2017."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/?utm_term=.830785956080


Why is it that you silly libs always side with some foreign country
that is screwing the US?

See, this is the emotional thing I was talking about. Instead of discussing the real issues,

I have discussed the real issues. You on the other hand get the facts
wrong and rant on, taking the side against America. And how many times
do I have to tell you that you're wrong? I had to bash your head 3 times
when you falsely claimed that "it's not hard" to buy a machine gun in
the USA. And then you complain that I was nitpicking, when it's actually
the core of what you said that was wrong.





you have read a bunch of half truths and gotten wigged out over what is actually an insignificant issue. Then when someone wants to discuss the issue rationally you start calling them names and making up stuff about supporting other countries.

It's even better when it's a commie country
like China, right? They are shipping stuff here, with the price of the item
and the shipping together being less than it costs a company in the
USA to ship the same thing within the USA. You'd think that even a lib
would recognize that it's not right, not fair. But nooooooo.
Commies are right, the USA, especially anything that Trump does, has to
be wrong.

Lol! I haven't heard anyone call them "commies" in a long time. You so focus on the shipping as if that was the reason why US makers can't sell the same stuff. NO ONE IN THE US CAN MAKE THE STUFF AS CHEAP AS CHINA CAN MAKE IT!!!! It wouldn't matter if the US vendor got free shipping. Oh, you are talking about US vendors buying Chinese stuff and trying to compete by being a cheaper retailer? Lol, that's even more funny.

What exactly are you talking about? Which companies in the US are actually trying to compete in these market space? Who would prosper if they had cheap shipping?

Why not calm down, take a deep breath, count to 10. Then think about what you are really upset about.

--

Rick C.

Why not go fuck yourself and your Tesla spamming too?

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 07:43:09 -0700 (PDT), trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:41:47 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:23:03 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:41:33 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:46:26 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that.
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Not really. You say some stuff that comes from your emotions and expect me to have some idea of the logic involved when there really isn't any. That's the problem. You are all wound up about this and react to everything without giving it any real thought as I've explained several times pointing out that you have wrong facts or misinterpret the facts and you just rocket past any of that.

Sure, this coming from the dope that just told us it's "not hard to buy a
machine gun in the USA". And who keeps asking what's your point? And
who keeps claiming I said things, like there should be no restrictions
on weapons", when I never said any such thing.

I quoted your words and asked you to explain what you meant. Instead of discussing the issue you just want to flame and rant.


Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?

You state irrelevant data to support your wrong claims. I looked it up and told you how it works now. The US is setting rates that they have raised each year for several years now starting in 2014. So this is clearly not a Trump fix going on.

Wrong, wrong again. The US doesn't set the rates, the UPU does. If
the US set the freaking rates, then the US/Trump, could just raise those
rates. Duh? We can't raise them because of an international treaty
and the UPU. THAT is why Trump is withdrawing from the UPU. Capiche?

Ok, you are right, I misread that the US was raising the rates. But the rates are increasing...

Wow, the rates are increasing marginally, when US shippers are at over
a 2X disadvantage. Again, always taking the side of foreign countries
that are screwing us, making excuses for them.




"At the latest round of negotiations in 2012, countries did agree to raise fees slightly. The United States will get to charge about 13 percent more every year from 2014 to 2017."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/?utm_term=.830785956080


Why is it that you silly libs always side with some foreign country
that is screwing the US?

See, this is the emotional thing I was talking about. Instead of discussing the real issues,

I have discussed the real issues. You on the other hand get the facts
wrong and rant on, taking the side against America. And how many times
do I have to tell you that you're wrong? I had to bash your head 3 times
when you falsely claimed that "it's not hard" to buy a machine gun in
the USA. And then you complain that I was nitpicking, when it's actually
the core of what you said that was wrong.





you have read a bunch of half truths and gotten wigged out over what is actually an insignificant issue. Then when someone wants to discuss the issue rationally you start calling them names and making up stuff about supporting other countries.


It's even better when it's a commie country
like China, right? They are shipping stuff here, with the price of the item
and the shipping together being less than it costs a company in the
USA to ship the same thing within the USA. You'd think that even a lib
would recognize that it's not right, not fair. But nooooooo.
Commies are right, the USA, especially anything that Trump does, has to
be wrong.

Lol! I haven't heard anyone call them "commies" in a long time. You so focus on the shipping as if that was the reason why US makers can't sell the same stuff. NO ONE IN THE US CAN MAKE THE STUFF AS CHEAP AS CHINA CAN MAKE IT!!!! It wouldn't matter if the US vendor got free shipping. Oh, you are talking about US vendors buying Chinese stuff and trying to compete by being a cheaper retailer? Lol, that's even more funny.

What exactly are you talking about? Which companies in the US are actually trying to compete in these market space? Who would prosper if they had cheap shipping?

Why not calm down, take a deep breath, count to 10. Then think about what you are really upset about.

--

Rick C.


Why not go fuck yourself and your Tesla spamming too?

Why not discuss electronics?

Any idiots can curse and insult. And do.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 07/06/19 15:46, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 07:43:09 -0700 (PDT), trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:41:47 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:23:03 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:41:33 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:46:26 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 4:55:25 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

What is your point?

I suggest a reading comprehension class. You just keep asking that.
And then I clearly answer a point you raised and you ask what point I was
addressing.

Not really. You say some stuff that comes from your emotions and expect me to have some idea of the logic involved when there really isn't any. That's the problem. You are all wound up about this and react to everything without giving it any real thought as I've explained several times pointing out that you have wrong facts or misinterpret the facts and you just rocket past any of that.

Sure, this coming from the dope that just told us it's "not hard to buy a
machine gun in the USA". And who keeps asking what's your point? And
who keeps claiming I said things, like there should be no restrictions
on weapons", when I never said any such thing.

I quoted your words and asked you to explain what you meant. Instead of discussing the issue you just want to flame and rant.


Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China. Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it.

I don't believe that is the rule anymore.

What you believe doesn't matter. It is exactly what's going on.
Do you not understand that Chinese vendors are selling items on Ebay
for $1 with free shipping through USPS, while it costs a US vendor way
more than that just for shipping?

You state irrelevant data to support your wrong claims. I looked it up and told you how it works now. The US is setting rates that they have raised each year for several years now starting in 2014. So this is clearly not a Trump fix going on.

Wrong, wrong again. The US doesn't set the rates, the UPU does. If
the US set the freaking rates, then the US/Trump, could just raise those
rates. Duh? We can't raise them because of an international treaty
and the UPU. THAT is why Trump is withdrawing from the UPU. Capiche?

Ok, you are right, I misread that the US was raising the rates. But the rates are increasing...

Wow, the rates are increasing marginally, when US shippers are at over
a 2X disadvantage. Again, always taking the side of foreign countries
that are screwing us, making excuses for them.




"At the latest round of negotiations in 2012, countries did agree to raise fees slightly. The United States will get to charge about 13 percent more every year from 2014 to 2017."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/?utm_term=.830785956080


Why is it that you silly libs always side with some foreign country
that is screwing the US?

See, this is the emotional thing I was talking about. Instead of discussing the real issues,

I have discussed the real issues. You on the other hand get the facts
wrong and rant on, taking the side against America. And how many times
do I have to tell you that you're wrong? I had to bash your head 3 times
when you falsely claimed that "it's not hard" to buy a machine gun in
the USA. And then you complain that I was nitpicking, when it's actually
the core of what you said that was wrong.





you have read a bunch of half truths and gotten wigged out over what is actually an insignificant issue. Then when someone wants to discuss the issue rationally you start calling them names and making up stuff about supporting other countries.


It's even better when it's a commie country
like China, right? They are shipping stuff here, with the price of the item
and the shipping together being less than it costs a company in the
USA to ship the same thing within the USA. You'd think that even a lib
would recognize that it's not right, not fair. But nooooooo.
Commies are right, the USA, especially anything that Trump does, has to
be wrong.

Lol! I haven't heard anyone call them "commies" in a long time. You so focus on the shipping as if that was the reason why US makers can't sell the same stuff. NO ONE IN THE US CAN MAKE THE STUFF AS CHEAP AS CHINA CAN MAKE IT!!!! It wouldn't matter if the US vendor got free shipping. Oh, you are talking about US vendors buying Chinese stuff and trying to compete by being a cheaper retailer? Lol, that's even more funny.

What exactly are you talking about? Which companies in the US are actually trying to compete in these market space? Who would prosper if they had cheap shipping?

Why not calm down, take a deep breath, count to 10. Then think about what you are really upset about.

--

Rick C.


Why not go fuck yourself and your Tesla spamming too?


Why not discuss electronics?

Any idiots can curse and insult. And do.

Cursing rarely reflects well on the person doing the curing.

Insults /can/ be an artform, but that's rare and certainly
not the case here.
(Artform iff they are relevant, pointed and amusing)

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 12:57:59 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 07/06/19 15:46, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 07:43:09 -0700 (PDT), trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:41:47 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 9:23:03 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

It's even better when it's a commie country
like China, right? They are shipping stuff here, with the price of the item
and the shipping together being less than it costs a company in the
USA to ship the same thing within the USA. You'd think that even a lib
would recognize that it's not right, not fair. But nooooooo.
Commies are right, the USA, especially anything that Trump does, has to
be wrong.

Lol! I haven't heard anyone call them "commies" in a long time. You so focus on the shipping as if that was the reason why US makers can't sell the same stuff. NO ONE IN THE US CAN MAKE THE STUFF AS CHEAP AS CHINA CAN MAKE IT!!!! It wouldn't matter if the US vendor got free shipping. Oh, you are talking about US vendors buying Chinese stuff and trying to compete by being a cheaper retailer? Lol, that's even more funny.

What exactly are you talking about? Which companies in the US are actually trying to compete in these market space? Who would prosper if they had cheap shipping?

Why not calm down, take a deep breath, count to 10. Then think about what you are really upset about.

--

Rick C.


Why not go fuck yourself and your Tesla spamming too?


Why not discuss electronics?

Any idiots can curse and insult. And do.

Cursing rarely reflects well on the person doing the curing.

Insults /can/ be an artform, but that's rare and certainly
not the case here.
(Artform iff they are relevant, pointed and amusing)

Are you talking about Lenny Bruce or the Ice Man?

I think the Chinese are very good at designing, making and selling low priced electronics. I remember when I was a kid the running joke was about Japanese electronics being very cheaply made. But that was really just from the very inexpensive goods they could make immediately after the war which they quickly adapted to. So much so, that in the 70's they ate the world's lunch by making the most reliable cars in the world which the rest of us had to emulate to prevent the collapse of the auto industry elsewhere. Now pretty much every car has to live up to high standards in quality and reliability... thanks to the Japanese setting the standard.

I think in another 10 years we won't be focusing on the crap that is sold on eBay and Aliexpress for $1. We'll be worrying about how to find ways to keep up with the quality and low cost of Chinese manufacturing. Oh, also the US be buying Thorium fueled reactors... but not in 10 years. The rest of the world will get them, but it will be at least 20 years before anyone scales the ramparts of the NRC so we can have them in the US.

I guess state sales tax won't matter so much when everything we buy is from overs

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 5,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:55:20 -0700 (PDT), trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China.

Trump has talked about it. I believe he's directed the USPS to
investigate the actual cost of delivering packages. They claim it's
not possible. Go figure.

Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it. So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!

This is an example of something very wrong, that was brought to the
attention of the feds decades ago, but no one gave a damn to fix it.
It was some guy in America who came up with a travel mug design,
he was selling it for like $7 plus shipping. Chinese vendors knocked
it off, violated his patents, and started selling it for less with free
shipping. He tried to get the govt to help him, but no one cared.

Yet you don't like _any_ tariffs.

 

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 15:26:41 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 3:55:40 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:26:20 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 20.59.45 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:29:15 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 17.38.22 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:23:41 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 01.08.08 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.


that's pretty much how it works with VAT in the EU, seems like a pretty good
way to do it. A few sales to a country doesn't mean you have to go through the hassle of collecting VAT for that country, but one you start selling more to that country you have to pay the VAT and compete on equal terms

I'm not familiar with VAT. I thought it wasn't handled the same as sales tax. Is it collected by a vendor and then paid to the state? I guess I had the impression it was integrated into the price of the item rather than collected as a separate item. Maybe I have this impression because VAT is paid at each stage of the process but the only tax that shows is what is being added in a given transaction. So all VAT paid at earlier stages is hidden and not indicated explicitly. A sales tax is only collected at the final retail sale.


yes it is added at each stage, collected by a vendor and then paid to the state
just pretend everything is a final retail sale, except that vendors can deduct the VAT they pay buying stuff from the VAT they have to pay when selling it

i.e. buy 50€ worth of stuff 10€ of it is VAT, sell it for 100€, 20€ is VAT,
send 10€ to the state

What I'm wondering is how this ruling would be enforced. If a state mandates a sales tax and a company doesn't have a presence in that state and doesn't pay the tax, how can the state collect it from them?


If I buy from within EU it is the vendors responsibility to collect the VAT,
if I buy outside EU the shipping company will take it through customs and collect at delivery (unless it slips by customs with sometimes happens from China, in my experience never from the US)





On direct imports, who pays the VAT? The end-user?

if I order something from China I pay the VAT


If a distributor buys Chinese stuff cheap, and resells in Europe, how
is the VAT handled?

they pay VAT on import


I always thought the idea of VAT was silly, punishing people for
creating value.

or alternatively only taxing those that actually make money


Is there VAT on services?

yes, there is VAT on almost everything

California has no sales tax on services, which is probably because
lawyers write the laws. If my car gets repaired, the parts are taxed
but the labor isn't.



We don't pay state sales tax on things that are "for resale", like
parts or subassemblies, and there is no Federal sales tax for us. Most
of our customers are also exempt from sales tax.

same for VAT, a company get the VAT back on stuff they buy and collect
VAT on stuff they sell


One thing I like about sales tax as a source of government revenue is
that imports get taxed at the same rate as domestic production.
Chinese companies don't pay all the many taxes that US ones do.

And I like that it's in plain sight at the point of sales, instead of
hidden like VAT. Prices for stuff here are usually shown pre-tax, and
the taxes are added on at time of sale.

Lots of things don't have sales tax. Food, houses, stuff like that.

A rose by any other name. Maryland doesn't have a sales tax on autos. But they charge a 6% tax when registering it. Every state I know of has taxes on real estate. They may not call it "sales tax", but who cares? In most places houses have a rather significant tax when buying them.

I've _never_ paid a "significant" tax when buying a house. A couple
of hundred bucks, maybe, but nothing like even 1%. Of course, I've
had to pay property taxes into escrow, or reimburse the seller for
property taxes paid.

Well, a cold or "warm" sandwich has no sales tax, but a "hot" sandwich
does. I buy the "warm" corned beef sandwich.

That's an issue of not wanting to tax the poor so in general food is not taxed unless it is considered to be more of a luxury item, meaning it is bought in a restaurant. Maryland has no tax on food in a grocery store (not sure about precooked items) but you are taxed in restaurants. In Virginia they drop the tax rate to half on food in a grocery store. On the other hand local jurisdictions have the option of piggyback taxing restaurants so that most locations charge 11% total tax.

No small part of the SCOTUS decision in this case was that with modern computing capabilities it should be a snap to know every tax in every jurisdiction for each vendor to charge. Clearly this will result in service companies to provide that capability not unlike the several credit card processors for business.

It's not a simple matter and is often wrong. The first problem is to
know what jurisdiction the buyer is in.

>It should be a snap to allow these companies to aggregate all the taxes you pay. At one time you could deduct all your taxes on your federal return, but alas, no more. Still, it would be highly educational to see just what taxes you pay.

You can still do it, even if you can't deduct it on your federal
taxes. It's the same amount of work. It was never easy.

>One I love is the "franchise fee" paid to cable operators. Why isn't that listed as a tax?

 

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 2:59:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:29:15 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 17.38.22 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:23:41 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 01.08.08 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.


that's pretty much how it works with VAT in the EU, seems like a pretty good
way to do it. A few sales to a country doesn't mean you have to go through the hassle of collecting VAT for that country, but one you start selling more to that country you have to pay the VAT and compete on equal terms

I'm not familiar with VAT. I thought it wasn't handled the same as sales tax. Is it collected by a vendor and then paid to the state? I guess I had the impression it was integrated into the price of the item rather than collected as a separate item. Maybe I have this impression because VAT is paid at each stage of the process but the only tax that shows is what is being added in a given transaction. So all VAT paid at earlier stages is hidden and not indicated explicitly. A sales tax is only collected at the final retail sale.


yes it is added at each stage, collected by a vendor and then paid to the state
just pretend everything is a final retail sale, except that vendors can deduct the VAT they pay buying stuff from the VAT they have to pay when selling it

i.e. buy 50€ worth of stuff 10€ of it is VAT, sell it for 100€, 20€ is VAT,
send 10€ to the state

What I'm wondering is how this ruling would be enforced. If a state mandates a sales tax and a company doesn't have a presence in that state and doesn't pay the tax, how can the state collect it from them?


If I buy from within EU it is the vendors responsibility to collect the VAT,
if I buy outside EU the shipping company will take it through customs and collect at delivery (unless it slips by customs with sometimes happens from China, in my experience never from the US)





On direct imports, who pays the VAT? The end-user?

If a distributor buys Chinese stuff cheap, and resells in Europe, how
is the VAT handled?

I always thought the idea of VAT was silly, punishing people for
creating value.

Is there VAT on services?

We don't pay state sales tax on things that are "for resale", like
parts or subassemblies, and there is no Federal sales tax for us. Most
of our customers are also exempt from sales tax.

So you don't like sales tax, you don't like income tax on companies. I suppose you also would be opposed to taxes on wealth?

What taxes do you support? Any?

Taxes on individuals? Only individuals pay taxes anyway. Collecting
it in the middle only warps the economy and adds cost.

 

[John Robertson]

On 2019/06/08 7:19 a.m., krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 2:59:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:29:15 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 17.38.22 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:23:41 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 01.08.08 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.


that's pretty much how it works with VAT in the EU, seems like a pretty good
way to do it. A few sales to a country doesn't mean you have to go through the hassle of collecting VAT for that country, but one you start selling more to that country you have to pay the VAT and compete on equal terms

I'm not familiar with VAT. I thought it wasn't handled the same as sales tax. Is it collected by a vendor and then paid to the state? I guess I had the impression it was integrated into the price of the item rather than collected as a separate item. Maybe I have this impression because VAT is paid at each stage of the process but the only tax that shows is what is being added in a given transaction. So all VAT paid at earlier stages is hidden and not indicated explicitly. A sales tax is only collected at the final retail sale.


yes it is added at each stage, collected by a vendor and then paid to the state
just pretend everything is a final retail sale, except that vendors can deduct the VAT they pay buying stuff from the VAT they have to pay when selling it

i.e. buy 50€ worth of stuff 10€ of it is VAT, sell it for 100€, 20€ is VAT,
send 10€ to the state

What I'm wondering is how this ruling would be enforced. If a state mandates a sales tax and a company doesn't have a presence in that state and doesn't pay the tax, how can the state collect it from them?


If I buy from within EU it is the vendors responsibility to collect the VAT,
if I buy outside EU the shipping company will take it through customs and collect at delivery (unless it slips by customs with sometimes happens from China, in my experience never from the US)





On direct imports, who pays the VAT? The end-user?

If a distributor buys Chinese stuff cheap, and resells in Europe, how
is the VAT handled?

I always thought the idea of VAT was silly, punishing people for
creating value.

Is there VAT on services?

We don't pay state sales tax on things that are "for resale", like
parts or subassemblies, and there is no Federal sales tax for us. Most
of our customers are also exempt from sales tax.

So you don't like sales tax, you don't like income tax on companies. I suppose you also would be opposed to taxes on wealth?

What taxes do you support? Any?

Taxes on individuals? Only individuals pay taxes anyway. Collecting
it in the middle only warps the economy and adds cost.

If companies want to be treated as people (legal fiction of course) then
the same company should be taxed. You can't have it both ways. If the
company shouldn't pay taxes then it should have no rights - Disney would
have no copyright protection, companies couldn't sue to collect debts or
protect their interests, etc.

Why should companies have the legal rights of personhood but not the
responsibility (to pay appropriate tax?

Companies were granted the right of personhood so they can exist - they
just don't work otherwise, so they need to pay taxes just like the rest
of us. And we have to keep an eye on them so they can't get away with
Love Canals or tax avoidance!

John

 

On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 10:31:26 AM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:55:20 -0700 (PDT), trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:08:08 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I don't enjoy paying more, but the brick and mortar stores are already
suffering greatly trying to compete with the internet. When some out
of state seller, someone in China can sell you a $500 item with no
sales tax, what do you think that does for the local store? And people
come into the store, check it out, ask questions, then proceed to buy
it tax free on the internet.

Another part of that, something Trump should fix, though I haven't
seen anyone talking about it, is the way the Post Office and US sellers
that ship by mail are getting screwed by China.

Trump has talked about it. I believe he's directed the USPS to
investigate the actual cost of delivering packages. They claim it's
not possible. Go figure.

AFter posting that I saw where Trump actually has done something about it.
His given notice that the US is withdrawing from the international agreement
where the intl body determines the rates. It happens Oct, unless the
issues are fixed. That's an example of a Trump action that I support.

Look on Ebay for
things like cables, fitting, o-rings, small thumb drives, etc and
you'll find vendors in China selling them for $1 with free shipping.
I sell things on Ebay and the cheapest I can mail anything other than
a letter is $2.70. So, how can that be? Well in the 1800s the post
offices of the world got together and signed an international agreement
where the receiving country has to deliver it at the same cost that
it would cost the sending country to deliver it. So China has very
low mailing costs intermally, likely because they are deliberately
doing that to screw foreign countries, to give their vendors an advantage.
And the US Post Office, that's losing money, delivers the Chinese goods!

This is an example of something very wrong, that was brought to the
attention of the feds decades ago, but no one gave a damn to fix it.
It was some guy in America who came up with a travel mug design,
he was selling it for like $7 plus shipping. Chinese vendors knocked
it off, violated his patents, and started selling it for less with free
shipping. He tried to get the govt to help him, but no one cared.

Yet you don't like _any_ tariffs.

That's right, tariffs in general don't work and are wrong. Beyond the
fact that they don't work, it's a HUGE expansion of govt power, which
conservatives are supposed to be opposed to. Do you want the govt,
Trump, picking the winners and losers in the US economy? See any
issues ripe for abuse there? Companies that lobby and pay, get
tariff protection, those out of favor, get screwed.

 

On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 10:19:31 AM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 2:59:45 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:29:15 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 17.38.22 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:23:41 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
torsdag den 6. juni 2019 kl. 01.08.08 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:
Yeah, revenge is sweet. I hate subjects that tell you virtually nothing about the topic of the post. So I'm getting even with a few posters here who do that often.

I missed the fact that last year in South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc. the Supreme Court ruled that a company selling $100,000 worth of goods or 200 sales must collect sales tax for the jurisdiction of the buyer even if they have no physical presence there. That sucks!

It was a 5-4 vote and overturned the precedent of Quill Corp. v.. North Dakota, which is not common. The physical-presence rule of Quill was stated in the opinion to be "unsound and incorrect". This was based on such sound legal arguments such as the revenue of such untaxed sales being much higher than previously and implying that states and local governments would be insolvent without these taxes. I've always felt practical aspects of every day life should dominate when interpreting the Constitution... not!

So now the Supreme Court is raising your taxes. I expect more things will be available from outside the country (can you say China?) since this ruling now provides an even greater advantage to buying overseas which is still not taxed through the sellers. Until Trump creates a universal, all country import tax.


that's pretty much how it works with VAT in the EU, seems like a pretty good
way to do it. A few sales to a country doesn't mean you have to go through the hassle of collecting VAT for that country, but one you start selling more to that country you have to pay the VAT and compete on equal terms

I'm not familiar with VAT. I thought it wasn't handled the same as sales tax. Is it collected by a vendor and then paid to the state? I guess I had the impression it was integrated into the price of the item rather than collected as a separate item. Maybe I have this impression because VAT is paid at each stage of the process but the only tax that shows is what is being added in a given transaction. So all VAT paid at earlier stages is hidden and not indicated explicitly. A sales tax is only collected at the final retail sale.


yes it is added at each stage, collected by a vendor and then paid to the state
just pretend everything is a final retail sale, except that vendors can deduct the VAT they pay buying stuff from the VAT they have to pay when selling it

i.e. buy 50€ worth of stuff 10€ of it is VAT, sell it for 100€, 20€ is VAT,
send 10€ to the state

What I'm wondering is how this ruling would be enforced. If a state mandates a sales tax and a company doesn't have a presence in that state and doesn't pay the tax, how can the state collect it from them?


If I buy from within EU it is the vendors responsibility to collect the VAT,
if I buy outside EU the shipping company will take it through customs and collect at delivery (unless it slips by customs with sometimes happens from China, in my experience never from the US)





On direct imports, who pays the VAT? The end-user?

If a distributor buys Chinese stuff cheap, and resells in Europe, how
is the VAT handled?

I always thought the idea of VAT was silly, punishing people for
creating value.

Is there VAT on services?

We don't pay state sales tax on things that are "for resale", like
parts or subassemblies, and there is no Federal sales tax for us. Most
of our customers are also exempt from sales tax.

So you don't like sales tax, you don't like income tax on companies. I suppose you also would be opposed to taxes on wealth?

What taxes do you support? Any?

Taxes on individuals? Only individuals pay taxes anyway. Collecting
it in the middle only warps the economy and adds cost.

Collecting in the middle does make people in foreign countries that buy
US products pay part of the tax burden. A US company is taxed, that
cost gets passed on not only to US consumers, but also to foreigners.