How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)

[krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers <aemeijers@att.net> wrote:

Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture,
but will help disolved the gas.

The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated.

As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find
on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring.
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5

I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to
leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ...
but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion
rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation.

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of
C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much
harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems
safe for most of us.

Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen
concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug
juice half-and-half with fizzy water? I'd bet in a blind taste test,
your mouth could not tell the difference after the first sip, between
that and your injected fizzy.

I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand. Anybody remember
how they did 'needle beer' during prohibition?

Dunno, but according to my parents "bathtub gin" was all the rage. ;-)

 

[Bob F]

Elmo wrote:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture,
but will help disolved the gas.

The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated.

As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could
find on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually
occuring. http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5

I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll
have to leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an
explosion ... but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search,
that explosion rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for
home carbonation.

There's really no reason to go anywhere near 150 psi. 50 psi is more than you'll
ever need unless your just in a panic of a hurry. And there's no danger in
agitating it as long as you are not hitting the bottle with a sharp object. Just
shake the bottle. Even just shake the top back and forth to make crashing waves,
which increases surface area and CO2 absorbtion. Shaking the bottle decreases
the pressure, as the CO2 disolves into the water. It does not increase the
pressure because the pressure at the top is higher than the stabile pressure in
the CO2 in solution.

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the
standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but
it's just so much harder to accomplish that the right-side up with
agitation method seems safe for most of us.

You could make a filler cap with a 5 micron air stone that reaches to the bottom
of the bottle. Or, you can shake the bottle, or just be more patient.

 

[Bob F]

Elmo wrote:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen
concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the
jug juice half-and-half with fizzy water?

Hmmm... That might be interesting.

I did understand your point. What you're saying is that a blind taste
test might not know the difference if we either
(a) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 water, or,
(b) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 juice.

The pro is that this is as simple as it gets ... Of course, the
obvious con might be that test (a) isn't bubbly enough and test (b)
is too diluted (in addition to potentially not being bubbly enough).

But it's worth a try from someone out there.

BTW, I saw articles suggesting dropping a chunk of dry ice into the
liquid (outside, in case it pops the top when the very cold dry ice
fizzes into the not as cold liquid). That would accomplish the same
thing as you are suggesting.

I keep a "corney keg" of water (5 gal soda keg) full of water and carbonated,
with a tap. I often just put a spoonful of flavoring, like "coffee syrup
flavors" into a glass and top it off with the soda water.

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen
concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug
juice half-and-half with fizzy water?

Hmmm... That might be interesting.

I did understand your point. What you're saying is that a blind taste test
might not know the difference if we either
(a) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 water, or,
(b) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 juice.

The pro is that this is as simple as it gets ... Of course, the obvious con
might be that test (a) isn't bubbly enough and test (b) is too diluted (in
addition to potentially not being bubbly enough).

But it's worth a try from someone out there.

BTW, I saw articles suggesting dropping a chunk of dry ice into the liquid
(outside, in case it pops the top when the very cold dry ice fizzes into
the not as cold liquid). That would accomplish the same thing as you are
suggesting.

 

[LM]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 22:32:48 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5

This guy carbonates in GLASS bottles (using a 2 micron carbonation stone)!
http://www.winslam.com/laramee/blog/_entry/2008/07/26/Advancing-the-State-of-DIY-Carbonation.html

By the way, the air-chuck idea promoted in some of these articles doesn't
work as well as connections that are constantly open to the carbon dioxide.

Also, a quick call to the 800 Coca-Cola number confirms the 2-liter Coke
bottles are tested at 200 psi (amazing that they get this question often).

WARNING: California outlawed many brass fittings as of January 1, 2010, so
those of you in the tax state may have trouble buying lead-free fittings on
line (most non-California brass fittings have up to 2% lead for ease of
machining).

 

[LM]

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5
http://www.winslam.com/laramee/blog/_entry/2008/07/26/Advancing-the-State-of-DIY-Carbonation.html

This guy's chart shows the Co2 you can put in liquids based on temperature:
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/

He says at 30°F, you only need 10 PSI to carbonate soda to 3 parts Co2 per
volume, while at 45°F you have to bring the pressure up to 25 PSI to get
the same result, up to 60°F where you need over 30 PSI to get 3 parts of
Co2 per volume of liquid.

There's a picture of the guys pump system carbonator here
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/PumpSystem.htm

 

[Bob F]

LM wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5
http://www.winslam.com/laramee/blog/_entry/2008/07/26/Advancing-the-State-of-DIY-Carbonation.html

This guy's chart shows the Co2 you can put in liquids based on
temperature: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/

He says at 30°F, you only need 10 PSI to carbonate soda to 3 parts
Co2 per volume, while at 45°F you have to bring the pressure up to 25
PSI to get the same result, up to 60°F where you need over 30 PSI to
get 3 parts of Co2 per volume of liquid.

There's a picture of the guys pump system carbonator here
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/PumpSystem.htm

I think I'll just stick to a CO2 tank and regulator.

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:37:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the
standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake)
You could make a filler cap with a 5 micron air stone that reaches to the bottom
of the bottle. Or, you can shake the bottle, or just be more patient.

That's another interesting idea!

Looking up air stones, I find such a thing exists (aka diffusion stone):
http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/stainless-steel-air-stone.php
http://www.baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=21801
http://www.brewingkb.com/equipment/diffusion-stone-687.html

Right now, I have August Schrader's valve (.305" OD, 32 tpi or 7.7 mm OD,
32 threads per inch), which was chosen for ease of installation (5/16th
inch hole) and sealability (rubber gaskets & tie-down nut).

We could put a similar threaded pipe sticking halfway on each side of the
soda cap. On the bottom half (the half that goes into the bottle), we could
put a hose and the 5 ľm "air stone".

I would assume the air stone should be large in relation to the bottom of
the bottle so as to get as great a surface area as possible to bubble up
since the pressure will soon equilibrate, hence the bubbling would (I
guess) stop in seconds.

Of course, the partial pressure of C02 is what matters so, even though the
bubbling that pressurizes the 1 liter soda bottle stops, the inside of the
bottle will be pressurized to 50 psi.

This diffusion stone idea just might work.

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:37:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Shaking the bottle decreases the pressure, as the CO2 disolves into the water.
It does not increase the pressure because the pressure at the top is higher
than the stabile pressure in the CO2 in solution.

Very astute observation!

I love the healthy exchange of ideas!

 

[Bob F]

Elmo wrote:

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:37:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the
standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake)
You could make a filler cap with a 5 micron air stone that reaches
to the bottom of the bottle. Or, you can shake the bottle, or just
be more patient.

That's another interesting idea!

Looking up air stones, I find such a thing exists (aka diffusion
stone):
http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/stainless-steel-air-stone.php
http://www.baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=21801
http://www.brewingkb.com/equipment/diffusion-stone-687.html

Right now, I have August Schrader's valve (.305" OD, 32 tpi or 7.7 mm
OD, 32 threads per inch), which was chosen for ease of installation
(5/16th inch hole) and sealability (rubber gaskets & tie-down nut).

We could put a similar threaded pipe sticking halfway on each side of
the soda cap. On the bottom half (the half that goes into the
bottle), we could put a hose and the 5 ľm "air stone".

I would assume the air stone should be large in relation to the
bottom of the bottle so as to get as great a surface area as possible
to bubble up since the pressure will soon equilibrate, hence the
bubbling would (I guess) stop in seconds.

Of course, the partial pressure of C02 is what matters so, even
though the bubbling that pressurizes the 1 liter soda bottle stops,
the inside of the bottle will be pressurized to 50 psi.

This diffusion stone idea just might work.

Myself - I wouldn't bother. I've read a lot about this kind of thing for corney
kegs, but find for myself that just applying pressure and shaking them does the
job just fine. Other times, I just turn on the high pressure every time I wander
by the keg for a few seconds, until I get the pressure I want. You could do
either with your bottles and It will work fine too. The more open space at the
top of the bottle, the less times you will need to repeat the CO2 addition for
the desired result.

 

[Wild_Bill]

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Elmo" <dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote in message
news:hp8muh$1v7$1@tioat.net...

I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about
carbon
dioxide flow (see pictures below).
http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx

Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle
empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the water
slightly bubbly.

The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide must be
FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the automotive tire
valve.

I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions:

If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo):
Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi?

If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo):
Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem?
Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how
can
more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle?

I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would just be
static and fill the headspace.

What am I doing wrong?
See pictures here: http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx

 

[Sjouke Burry]

Elmo wrote:

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Given a co2 tank at 72°F has a pressure of 860 psi (as long as there is
some liquid still in the tank) according to this nice C02 tank care
article:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/co2_tanks.html

I'm curious ...
Q1: How do you know when you're "almost out" of liquid in a C02 tank???



Shake it, dont stir. (according to J.B.)

 

[Elmo]

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 00:39:48 -0400, Wild_Bill wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Indeed! That Richard J. Kinch treatise, titled " Carbonating at Home with
Improvised Equipment" was what gave me the idea to build my own carbonator.
He delved into the SCIENCE of it all; which gave me courage!

But even that wonderful tutorial missed out on a few points. For example,
"infusion" and not "flow" are what he should have used to describe how you
get 4 liters of CO2 into a 1 liter bottle of Orange Juice in a closed
system.

Also, he didn't describe some technical points, some of which are listed in
this CO2 Dynamics web site
(http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2dynamics.shtml)
such as a "full" tank contains only about 34% liquid CO2.

But most surprising (to me), was the statement that the pressure of a co2
tank has nothing to do with the amount of co2 in the tank; the pressure (as
long as there is "some" liquid in it) is always dependent solely upon the
temperature.

"At room temperature (70°F) it's about 853 psi."

So, with my new carbon dioxide tank, I'm not sure how I tell how much co2
is left in the tank. Does anyone know how you tell when it's getting low?

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Given a co2 tank at 72°F has a pressure of 860 psi (as long as there is
some liquid still in the tank) according to this nice C02 tank care
article:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/co2_tanks.html

I'm curious ...
Q1: How do you know when you're "almost out" of liquid in a C02 tank???

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 23:33:38 -0700, LM wrote:

Also, a quick call to the 800 Coca-Cola number confirms the 2-liter Coke
bottles are tested at 200 psi (amazing that they get this question often).

I'm learning more and more how to build (and maintain for safety) a home
carbonating system!

Since C02 pressure is around 800 psi, I was wondering why my C02 gauge goes
muuuch higher. I found out the Co2 pressure is logarithmically temperature
related ... so at reasonably warm summer temperatures (over 90°F), the C02
tank pressure could climb over 1200psi!

So, the first thing is to keep the tank covered from sunlight!

Also keep the C02 tank vertical! This article explains why.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/diy_co2rig.htm

BTW, some people use C02 tanks to fill large off-road tires because a
typical air tank (they say) doesn't hold enough air. Interesting:
http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/co2/co2-1.htm

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand.

Yes. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the proper assembling & use
of a home carbon dioxide soda fountain.

Another thing I learned is that I should NOT have used that Teflon tape to
seal all the joints in the regulators and hoses! )

According to this article (http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/bottle.html),
Teflon "flows" and refuses to "wet" but it "shreds", thereby fouling the
regulators.

So far, I think I've made every mistake you can make!
- I had the C02 bottle on its side
- I pressurized the soda bottle to 150psi
- I used Teflon tape to seal the high-pressure fittings
- I used a tire chuck with an intact Schrader valve (instead of removing
the stem of the Schrader valve)
etc.

But, I'm learning ... Any advice you can give is always welcome!

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:28:32 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

So, with my new carbon dioxide tank, I'm not sure how I tell how much co2
is left in the tank. Does anyone know how you tell when it's getting low?

Ummm... arithmetic? Weigh the empty tank (or ask the supplier for the
empty weight). Weigh the tank with whatever amount of C02 you have
left. The difference is how many pounds of C02 you have left.

You can also sorta do it the same way as with a propane tank. Get a
liquid crystal thermometer strip and glue it vertically to the side of
the tank. Leak a little gas and you should see the warm/cold liquid
dividing line. The problem is that the propane tank is quite thin
compared to most CO2 tanks, thus making the thicker CO2 tank more
difficult to see the dividing line. It also works best with steel
tanks, and doesn't work at all with aluminum.
<http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=gTkeAAAAEBAJ&dq=4358955>
You can also use an IR thermometer to locate the liquid level.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

 

[Don Klipstein]

In article <hpg210$1t6$1@tioat.net>, Elmo wrote:

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 00:39:48 -0400, Wild_Bill wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Indeed! That Richard J. Kinch treatise, titled " Carbonating at Home with
Improvised Equipment" was what gave me the idea to build my own carbonator.
He delved into the SCIENCE of it all; which gave me courage!

But even that wonderful tutorial missed out on a few points. For example,
"infusion" and not "flow" are what he should have used to describe how you
get 4 liters of CO2 into a 1 liter bottle of Orange Juice in a closed
system.

Also, he didn't describe some technical points, some of which are listed in
this CO2 Dynamics web site
(http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2dynamics.shtml)
such as a "full" tank contains only about 34% liquid CO2.

But most surprising (to me), was the statement that the pressure of a co2
tank has nothing to do with the amount of co2 in the tank; the pressure (as
long as there is "some" liquid in it) is always dependent solely upon the
temperature.

"At room temperature (70°F) it's about 853 psi."

So, with my new carbon dioxide tank, I'm not sure how I tell how much co2
is left in the tank. Does anyone know how you tell when it's getting low?

With a little personal experience, you can tell by the weight of the
tank.

And once the liquid is completely gone and the pressure starts dropping,
you probably have a few days of usefulness remaining. A few liters of CO2
at 800 PSI is enough to carbonate 10's of liters of soda before the
pressure in the tank drops to the 100-120 PSI or so used for carbonation.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

 

[Bob F]

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Given a co2 tank at 72°F has a pressure of 860 psi (as long as there
is some liquid still in the tank) according to this nice C02 tank
care article:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/co2_tanks.html

I'm curious ...
Q1: How do you know when you're "almost out" of liquid in a C02
tank???
Shake it, dont stir. (according to J.B.)

Weigh it, perhaps?