How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)

[Elmo]

I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon
dioxide flow (see pictures below).
http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx

Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle
empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the water
slightly bubbly.

The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide must be
FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the automotive tire
valve.

I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions:

If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo):
Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi?

If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo):
Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem?
Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can
more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle?

I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would just be
static and fill the headspace.

What am I doing wrong?
See pictures here: http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx

 

[Elmo]

I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon
dioxide flow (see pictures below).
Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem?
Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can
more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle?

I forgot to list the URL which said the C02 has to flow:
"Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment and Soda Fountains"
(http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm)

If I leave the inside of the tire valve in (see white cap in the
pictures at http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx), the CO2 carbonization
does not get to the 50psi you'd like that is in the bottle headspace; but
at least the tire valve attached to the hose is operated by the center stem
in the tire valve attached to the soda bottle cap.

Yet, if I remove the center stem from the tire valve (see the red cap
in the pictures at http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx), I can't get the
air chuck to operate (since it depends on the center valve to open up).

I'm thinking of just attaching the red cap open tire valve stem
directly to the carbonization hose but even then, I can't, for the
life of me, understand the article's wording that says the CO2 needs to
"flow". (Specifically it says leaving the valve stem on the valve "does not
work because the process requires a continuous flow of CO2 into the
bottle via an open connection".)

What I don't understand is where is the continuous flow into an "open
connection"?

If I clamp the red bottle cap onto the yellow hose (thereby eliminating the
air chuck), it's still a closed system, isn't it? Where does the "flow" of
C02 occur (except momentarily until the headspace of the bottle is
filled to 50psi or so)?

I'm sure I'm missing something simple ... I just do not understand
what I'm missing and I'm hoping someone can point me in the right
direction.

 

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:

I'm sure I'm missing something simple ...

Indeed!
Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup.

 

[Dean Hoffman]

Allodoxaphobia wrote:

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:
I'm sure I'm missing something simple ...

Indeed!
Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup.

Are you suggesting there will be a shortage of hot air?

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

I forgot to list the URL which said the C02 has to flow:
"Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment and Soda Fountains"
(http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm)

I built a carbonator once and made several huge mistakes, some of
which I see in the article. One mistake resulted in 2 liters of
sticky sugar water sprayed all over the kitchen.

The carbonation bottle, as shown, is upside down. You need to bubble
the CO2 gas THROUGH the liquid, not on top of it. A seltzer bottle
does with with a "siphon tube". That will work allowing right side up
carbonation.
<http://www.seltzersisters.com/graphics/bottles/plastic.jpg>

You need a way to bleed off the pressure after carbonating the liquid
or you will have the equivalent of a bottle rocket. The shutoff valve
shown is only part of the puzzle. There needs to be a bleeder valve
between the valve and the seltzer bottle. With a siphon tube, you'll
need to make sure that you don't suck liquid back into the regulator.
Think about a ball-spring type of one-way valve in the filler hose,
near the bottle end.

The tire valve stem and air chuck are a lousy idea but do solve an
important problem. You need to maintain pressure in the bottle after
removing the filler hose. Lots of ways to do that, but the bicycle
valve is probably the least effective. Like a selzer bottle, you need
seperate paths to fill the bottle and to empty the bottle. If vent
the bottle (especially when warm) the gas will simply come out of
solution into the air, leaving you with a flat tasting drink.

Chill or cool the liquid BEFORE filling. It will hold more CO2 and
taste better.

50 PSI is the recommended maximum pressure for the average bottle
rocket. Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the
bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit. If
you want more pressure, get a heavy wall glass bottle (i.e. seltzer
bottle) or aluminum container:
<http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=49572011>
Note that the tiny CO2 cartridges used in commercial siphon bottle
chargers are filled to about 850 PSI. Commercial bottled seltzer
water is delivered at 135 PSI.

Gourmet Syrup
<http://www.1883.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Elmo]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I built a carbonator once and made several huge mistakes, some of
which I see in the article.
The carbonation bottle, as shown, is upside down.

Hi Jeff,
I solved the problem after reading your response!

I thank you for taking your time to help others. I like the upside-down
idea and I understand your points about the internal pressure and the need
to bleed it off separately - but I wanted to make the right-side-up idea
work first.

The original article said, I had to bubble 4 volumes of carbon dioxide into
the bottle so I had to figure out how to bubble 4 liters of co2 into a 1
liter bottle.

It worked when I removed the stem of the tire valve (pictures here):
http://yfrog.com/13updatehomeco2carbonatiojx

My problem was there is no measurable laminar gas "flow" in either system
(1) tire valve with stem, or (2) tire valve w/o stem.

But, without the stem, the c02 molecules continue to "infuse" into the
liquid until there are 4 liters of c02 in the 1 liter of liquid.

So, I think the word "infuse" would have been better than "flow".

Now I have really good tasting seltzer water, grape juice soda, orange
juice soda, etc.

Thanks all!

 

[Elmo]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:02:19 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup.
Are you suggesting there will be a shortage of hot air?

Since google sucks at newsgroup searches, I searched both Newsparrot and
Giganews to find a pneumatics newsgroup.

I didn't find any.

 

[Elmo]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the
bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit.

The article suggested 150psi (and says 100psi is generated internally if
you drop any common soda bottle); so, as an experiment, I donned welders
garb (helmet, bib, and heavy gloves) and pressurized the 1 liter seltzer
bottle filled with orange juice to 150psi ... and ... nothing happened.

Well, the orange juice was really fizzy when I removed the pressure and
removed the cap; but what I mean is the bottle held 150 psi with aplomb!

I was too scared to go higher than 150 psi though (I had ammo of 800 psi of
c02 available).

I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them to
200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the
danger).

Anyway, it's amazing how well engineered a 10 cent throw-away soda bottle
is!

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:33:46 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

It worked when I removed the stem of the tire valve (pictures here):
http://yfrog.com/13updatehomeco2carbonatiojx

Ok, that's fine. Now, clean up the rest of the mess. The natural
rubber hose is not suitable for dealing with freezing liquids. Put a
piece in the fridge and watch it get stiff and brittle. I suggest you
use clear vinyl or PVC "food grade" hoses, and nylon fittings.

My problem was there is no measurable laminar gas "flow" in either system
(1) tire valve with stem, or (2) tire valve w/o stem.

But, without the stem, the c02 molecules continue to "infuse" into the
liquid until there are 4 liters of c02 in the 1 liter of liquid.

You can measure the amount of dissolved CO2 with a pH meter or pH
testing paper:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid>
See chart on acidity.

So, I think the word "infuse" would have been better than "flow".

Why so complexicated? Infusion is more like a slow leak into the
liquid. What you're really complaining about it is that it takes some
time for the gas to dissolve in the liquid. It doesn't happen
instantly. Patience. You can speed things up by increasing the
surface area of the gas bubbles, using smaller bubbles or a manifold
like contraption with more holes. Even so, it does take a while for
the gas to dissolve.

Now I have really good tasting seltzer water, grape juice soda, orange
juice soda, etc.

Light reading:
<http://www.ehow.com/carbonated-water/>

Have fun... (burp, belch, hiccup).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:24:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:

So, I think the word "infuse" would have been better than "flow".

Why so complexicated? Infusion is more like a slow leak into the
liquid. What you're really complaining about it is that it takes some
time for the gas to dissolve in the liquid. It doesn't happen
instantly. Patience. You can speed things up by increasing the
surface area of the gas bubbles, using smaller bubbles or a manifold
like contraption with more holes. Even so, it does take a while for
the gas to dissolve.

Could use something like an aquarium aerator stone to dissolve the gas
into water.

 

[Engineer]

On Apr 4, 9:41 am, Elmo <dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the
bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit.

(snip)

I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them to
200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the
danger).

(snip)

Yes, there's no danger because, being incompressible, it does not
store energy like a pressurized gas. The only stored energy with
water pressurization is strain energy in the vessel, usually quite
small. If the vessel ruptures the pressure instantly goes to zero and
the water just runs out.
Cheers,
Roger

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:41:07 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:

The article suggested 150psi (and says 100psi is generated internally if
you drop any common soda bottle); so, as an experiment, I donned welders
garb (helmet, bib, and heavy gloves) and pressurized the 1 liter seltzer
bottle filled with orange juice to 150psi ... and ... nothing happened.

Correction!

The article suggested 50psi! (not 150psi).
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT), Engineer wrote:

Path: aioe.org!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: Engineer <junk2007@rogers.com
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <8a8bf04f-e954-4e88-b317-75850e745024@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com
References: <hp8muh$1v7$1@tioat.net> <hp8oev$2dl$1@tioat.net
<693gr51633o5copge4hjsv1j544d1o2jrc@4ax.com> <hpa4tj$eka$1@tioat.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 174.112.36.42
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1270395272 4072 127.0.0.1 (4 Apr 2010 15:34:32 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 15:34:32 +0000 (UTC)
Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
Injection-Info: z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=174.112.36.42;
posting-account=7eatwQoAAAA7jEgZiH-tBO0RJMP2eeGB
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.3)
Gecko/20100401 Firefox/3.6.3 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe)
Xref: aioe.org alt.home.repair:89991 sci.electronics.repair:20732

On Apr 4, 9:41=A0am, Elmo <dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the
bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit.

(snip)

I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them t=
o
200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the
danger).

(snip)

Yes, there's no danger because, being incompressible, it does not
store energy like a pressurized gas. The only stored energy with
water pressurization is strain energy in the vessel, usually quite
small. If the vessel ruptures the pressure instantly goes to zero and
the water just runs out.
Cheers,
Roger

Does that mean that, if I fill the juice bottle with juice, and then
pressurize the head space to, say 200 psi (or whatever it takes to burst
the bottle or cap), that the danger is less (than if I filled it purely
with gas)?

The hose is beverage hose so it seems to take 150psi without problems.
The bottle seems to take 150psi without problems and the tire valve doesn't
seem to leak from the top so I wonder what happens if I fill it to
bursting.

What can we predict will happen if I have, say, an inch or two of headspace
and I pressurize the bottle to bursting (either glass or plastic)?

I suspect the glass would be too dangerous to even try (although glass
would hold up to higher pressure ... maybe even the 800 psi of the carbon
dioxide tank???).

I suspect the bottle top will blow off the threads before the bottle
explodes or before the hose expands. The top has a brass tire valve in it
so obviously you'd want it to be aimed the other way from your face.

Unanswered questions:
Do you think the bottle will blow first or the cap off the threads?
Do you think glass will withstand the entire 800 psi of the C02 tank?

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:24:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Infusion is more like a slow leak into the
liquid. What you're really complaining about it is that it takes some
time for the gas to dissolve in the liquid. It doesn't happen
instantly. Patience. You can speed things up by increasing the
surface area of the gas bubbles, using smaller bubbles or a manifold
like contraption with more holes. Even so, it does take a while for
the gas to dissolve.

I just re-read the original article and noticed that the author
recommends agitation under pressure to help with dissolution. That
strikes me as a bit dangerous as aggitation is a great way to trigger
a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. Hmmm.... maybe a paint
shaker?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Bob F]

Elmo wrote:

I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about
carbon dioxide flow (see pictures below).
http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx

Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle
empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the
water slightly bubbly.

The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide
must be FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the
automotive tire valve.

I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions:

If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo):
Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi?

If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo):
Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the
stem? Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2
hose, how can more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the
bottle?

I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would
just be static and fill the headspace.

What am I doing wrong?
See pictures here: http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx

Just keep adding CO2 every several hours until you reach the desired carbonation
level. After you pressurize the airspace, the CO2 will be gradually absorbed
into the water, and the pressure in the airspace will drop until it reaches
equilibrium. Or, you can attach the CO2, and shake the bottle to speed the
absorbtion. Beginning with the water very cold will speed the process. As you
shake the bottle, the CO2 quickly disolves into the water, and you will likely
hear the CO2 flow out of the regulator as you do. Do this for a bit, then turn
off the CO2 (leaving it attached) and continue shaking until the pressure at the
guage quits going down. The guage will then show approximately the equilibrium
pressure at the current temperature of the water in the bottle. You can repeat
this until you reach the desired carbonation.

 

[Jeffrey D Angus]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I just re-read the original article and noticed that the author
recommends agitation under pressure to help with dissolution. That
strikes me as a bit dangerous as aggitation is a great way to trigger
a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. Hmmm.... maybe a paint
shaker?

It's beginning to sound as dangerous as the new "Shake and
Bake" method for making Meth in 2 liter bottled.

Jeff



--
“Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.”
Frank Leahy, Head coach, Notre Dame 1941-1954

http://www.stay-connect.com

 

[aemeijers]

Elmo wrote:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture,
but will help disolved the gas.

The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated.

As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find
on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring.
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5

I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to
leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ...
but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion
rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation.

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of
C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much
harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems
safe for most of us.

Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen
concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug
juice half-and-half with fizzy water? I'd bet in a blind taste test,
your mouth could not tell the difference after the first sip, between
that and your injected fizzy.

I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand. Anybody remember
how they did 'needle beer' during prohibition?

--
aem sends...

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture,
but will help disolved the gas.

The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated.

As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find
on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring.
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/03/home-carbonation/
http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Soda-Water-&-Home-Carbonation---Pays-For-Itsel/
http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/
http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/msg/24e7cf7f24d463e5

I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to
leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ...
but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion
rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation.

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of
C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much
harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems
safe for most of us.

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 16:07:13 -0500, Jeffrey D Angus wrote:

It's beginning to sound as dangerous as the new "Shake and
Bake" method for making Meth in 2 liter bottled.

Let's be serious. Out of the entire google record, there's not one recorded
case of a bottle exploding (that I can find) ... so is it that dangerous?

Maybe the danger you speak of is regarding the C02 tank itself (admittedly
a bomb if the neck ever failed); however, lots of people have oxygen tanks
in their homes which is far more dangerous than C02 (I would think), and
they're not scared.

If anyone can find, on record, a case of a home carbonation system
exploding the bottle (there's one case where the hose melted because it was
too close to heat), then that would be interesting.

 

[Elmo]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:54:45 -0700, Bob F wrote:

The guage will then show approximately the equilibrium
pressure at the current temperature of the water in the bottle. You can repeat
this until you reach the desired carbonation.

I was able to carbonate (explained in a thread where I corrected the
spelling of "build" in the title).

Basically, there are two fundamental methods:
1. Tire valve with the stem intact ... or ...
2. Tire valve with the stem removed.

It takes only about a minute to fully carbonate a liter of liquid with the
stem removed. The "flow" I had trouble understanding was a static
"infusion" of carbon dioxide molecules into the fluid based on the partial
pressure of C02 in the air space above the liquid and the partial pressure
of C02 in the liquid; not a literal air-stream flow that was discernible.

Method 1, as you noted, will work; it just takes a LOT longer with static
C02 pressure because it takes about 4 volumes of C02 (i.e., 4 liters) to
fully carbonate 1 volume of liquid (i.e., 1 liter).