How much power used when device is Off.

[mm]

I hope you all can explain this to me.

Let's assume we have an AC adapter with only a small number of parts,
a step-down transformer and 1 to 4 diodes.

Let's assume that the primary of the adpater uses 0.1 amps at 120
volts. (I don't think it matters for the sake of this question how
much the device itself uses. We can pretend that there are no losses
and it has an output of 1 amp at 12 volts, and powers a device that
uses the full amp. Or that the device uses less than that.)

So in this case when the device is on, it's consuming 12 watts from
the power company. The primary of the AC adapter is using 12 watts.

Roughly, with an adapter of typical, simple, only 5 parts, design, how
much in watts would the adapter use if the device were turned off,
that is, if the secondary circuit of the adapter were open? The
primary circuit would still be closed. The inductive impedance of the
primary winding would go up -- it took me years to figure that out --
but I have no idea how much.


2) Yesterday, someone gave me a broken AC adapter used to power a
Westell DSL modem. I broke it open and instead of the 5 or 6 parts
such things used to have, this one had about 25 parts, including a
small transformer and what looked like another winding on a metal
core. Plus 3 big caps (one or more filter caps), I need more light
and better glasses to count the diodes, one transistor, and something
looking like a little glass fuse but with a white sandy body.

Something this complicated must be smarter than earlier adapters.
Does that mean it uses less current when the device intended to be
powered is Off? Any idea how much a 25-part adapter like this uses
when the devices is Off, assuming when it's On it uses 12 watts?

Thanks.

 

[Phil Allison]

"mm"

Roughly, with an adapter of typical, simple, only 5 parts, design, how
much in watts would the adapter use if the device were turned off,
that is, if the secondary circuit of the adapter were open? The
primary circuit would still be closed. The inductive impedance of the
primary winding would go up -- it took me years to figure that out --
but I have no idea how much.

** The number is not fixed - like most things, it varies.

The range is from about 0.5 watt to 3 watts for a 12 watt adaptor.

Some fuckwits think this matters and have passed laws banning the sale of
adaptors that use more than 0.75 watts or so when off load.

DAMN WANKERS !!!

Like YOU !!!



.... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

Phil Allison wrote:

"mm"
Roughly, with an adapter of typical, simple, only 5 parts, design, how
much in watts would the adapter use if the device were turned off,
that is, if the secondary circuit of the adapter were open? The
primary circuit would still be closed. The inductive impedance of the
primary winding would go up -- it took me years to figure that out --
but I have no idea how much.


** The number is not fixed - like most things, it varies.

The range is from about 0.5 watt to 3 watts for a 12 watt adaptor.

Some fuckwits think this matters and have passed laws banning the sale of
adaptors that use more than 0.75 watts or so when off load.

There's a market inefficiency. An adapter that wastes 3 watts when left
plugged in would cost about $4.50 per year to run under Powersmart
residential rates in NSW. But purchasers are unlikely to factor that
into their decision to buy, which will probably be determined by sticker
price.

To address this market ineffeciency, a regulator has two options -
either ban such profligate power consumption, or require clear labelling
of the power consumption implications. Since it is highly probable that
a less power hungry adaptor can be manufactured for less additional cost
than the annual cost of the excess power consumption, it makes sense to
take the route that dictates a maximum unloaded power consumption.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone a Else Alive"

Phil Allison wrote:

** The number is not fixed - like most things, it varies.

The range is from about 0.5 watt to 3 watts for a 12 watt adaptor.

Some fuckwits think this matters and have passed laws banning the sale of
adaptors that use more than 0.75 watts or so when off load.

DAMN WANKERS
Just like Sylvia.


There's a market inefficiency.

** No there is not.

An adapter that wastes 3 watts

** The energy is not wasted.

To address this market ineffeciency,

** Which does not exist.

either ban such profligate power consumption,

** Nothing of the sort is happening.

Profligate power consumption is not due to tiny adaptors and a few watts.

Large appliances like water heaters, air conditioners and domestic halogen
lighting are the main culprits.

Fuckwits like Sylvia can never see the wood for the trees.

Cos her ugly head is made entirely of rotten wood.




..... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Stupider than Anyone a Else Alive"

Phil Allison wrote:
** The number is not fixed - like most things, it varies.

The range is from about 0.5 watt to 3 watts for a 12 watt adaptor.

Some fuckwits think this matters and have passed laws banning the sale of
adaptors that use more than 0.75 watts or so when off load.

DAMN WANKERS
Just like Sylvia.

There's a market inefficiency.

** No there is not.


An adapter that wastes 3 watts

** The energy is not wasted.

To address this market ineffeciency,


** Which does not exist.


either ban such profligate power consumption,


** Nothing of the sort is happening.

Profligate power consumption is not due to tiny adaptors and a few watts.

Large appliances like water heaters, air conditioners and domestic halogen
lighting are the main culprits.

Fuckwits like Sylvia can never see the wood for the trees.

Cos her ugly head is made entirely of rotten wood.




.... Phil

You seem to be assuming that the intervention is about energy
consumption. Well, maybe it is. But the intervention can be justified on
purely economic grounds. The comsumers* are better off as a result of
the intervention, even if they don't realise it.

Sylvia

[*] Except for the smally minority who unplug/switch off their adapters.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone a Else Alive"

You seem to be assuming that the intervention is about energy consumption.

** No assumption - an absolute FACT.

Rabid Green lunatics ARE responsible for the new regulations.

And the justification was all about CO2 emissions.

Well, maybe it is.

** Shows how fucking little YOU know !!

But the intervention can be justified on purely economic grounds.

** No it cannot.

Costs and risks for the consumers actually go up dramatically.

Low standby power adaptors are virtually ALL switching types - means the
initial cost is much higher, they have much shorter service lives and are
dangerous both to equipment and users when they wear out or develop a fault.

The public have been massively DUDDED by fuckwit Green zealots.

YET AGAIN !!



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone a Else Alive"

There's a market inefficiency.

** No there is not.

An adapter that wastes 3 watts

** The energy is not wasted.

To address this market ineffeciency,

** Which does not exist.

either ban such profligate power consumption,

** Nothing of the sort is happening.

Profligate power consumption is not due to tiny adaptors and a few watts.

Large appliances like water heaters, air conditioners and domestic halogen
lighting are the main culprits.

Fuckwits like Sylvia can never see the wood for the trees.

Cos her ugly head is made entirely of rotten wood.




..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"mm"

Let's assume we have an AC adapter with only a small number of parts,
a step-down transformer and 1 to 4 diodes.

** The only thing that consumes power in standby mode is the iron
transformer.

Some heat goes into in the wire of the primary and the rest in the iron
core.

So it gets a tad warm to the touch.

Something this complicated must be smarter than earlier adapters.
Does that mean it uses less current when the device intended to be
powered is Off? Any idea how much a 25-part adapter like this uses
when the devices is Off, assuming when it's On it uses 12 watts?

** Most recent design switch mode adaptors virtually shut down when there is
no load on the output.

Older ones do not do this and run warm, like the iron tranny ones.

Nothing is a simple as you might like.



.... Phil

 

[William Sommerwerck]

While Phil and Sylvia (who is Sylvia?) duke it out...

The primary current drawn by an "off" power supply is (I believe) mostly
reactive, so (I assume) the watt-hour meter doesn't see it. (I still haven't
called PSE to confirm this.) Of course, if the supply runs warm even when
unloaded, it's definitely wasting energy.

There are market forces moving manufacturers in the direction of highly
efficient supplies -- specifically, international sales. Products are
increasingly supplied with small switching supplies that can work at 50 or
60 Hz, at 100 to 240 volts. Thus, only one supply is required, regardless of
where the product is sold.

I'm a great believer in government intervention in markets, to make them do
what they should be doing. But forcing companies to make efficient power
supplies doesn't seem to be necessary, as they're doing it themselves.

California is considering a law that would phase in reduced TV power
consumption. The problem is that this isn't easily done (particularly with
plasma sets), and LCD manufacturers are switching to LED illumination,
anyway.

 

[PeterD]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 04:12:58 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

I hope you all can explain this to me.

Let's assume we have an AC adapter with only a small number of parts,
a step-down transformer and 1 to 4 diodes.

Let's assume that the primary of the adpater uses 0.1 amps at 120
volts. (I don't think it matters for the sake of this question how
much the device itself uses. We can pretend that there are no losses
and it has an output of 1 amp at 12 volts, and powers a device that
uses the full amp. Or that the device uses less than that.)

So in this case when the device is on, it's consuming 12 watts from
the power company. The primary of the AC adapter is using 12 watts.

Roughly, with an adapter of typical, simple, only 5 parts, design, how
much in watts would the adapter use if the device were turned off,

Depends on the quality of the transformer. A properly designed and
manufactured transformer can be very efficient. A cheap Chinese POS
can be incredibly inefficient, more a room heater than a transformer.

that is, if the secondary circuit of the adapter were open? The
primary circuit would still be closed. The inductive impedance of the
primary winding would go up -- it took me years to figure that out --
but I have no idea how much.


2) Yesterday, someone gave me a broken AC adapter used to power a
Westell DSL modem. I broke it open and instead of the 5 or 6 parts
such things used to have, this one had about 25 parts, including a
small transformer and what looked like another winding on a metal
core. Plus 3 big caps (one or more filter caps), I need more light
and better glasses to count the diodes, one transistor, and something
looking like a little glass fuse but with a white sandy body.

Switching powersupply perhaps?

Something this complicated must be smarter than earlier adapters.

Cheaper to make. Can be more efficient.

Does that mean it uses less current when the device intended to be
powered is Off? Any idea how much a 25-part adapter like this uses
when the devices is Off, assuming when it's On it uses 12 watts?

Well, measure the power consumed and see what you get? That is what
I'd start with.

Another test, limited, is to measure temperature rise. Start with a
'cold' unit, no load, and watch how the temperature rises when it is
powered up. Any power consumed when unloaded will be converted to
heat. Testing loaded efficiency is more difficult, but clearly not
impossible to do with either a power in/power out ratio, or even a
heat rise measurement loaded to unloaded.

Thanks.

 

[PeterD]

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:06:42 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"mm"

Roughly, with an adapter of typical, simple, only 5 parts, design, how
much in watts would the adapter use if the device were turned off,
that is, if the secondary circuit of the adapter were open? The
primary circuit would still be closed. The inductive impedance of the
primary winding would go up -- it took me years to figure that out --
but I have no idea how much.


** The number is not fixed - like most things, it varies.

The range is from about 0.5 watt to 3 watts for a 12 watt adaptor.

Some fuckwits think this matters and have passed laws banning the sale of
adaptors that use more than 0.75 watts or so when off load.

DAMN WANKERS !!!

Like YOU !!!



... Phil

<g> We have electric heat. People tell us we should turn off our
(incandesent) lamps whenever possible. "It's the green thing to do..."
they say.

Clueless.

 

[sparky]

On Dec 26, 6:37 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:
"Stupider than Anyone a Else Alive"

Phil Allison wrote:
** The number is not fixed -  like most things,  it varies.

The range is from about 0.5 watt to 3 watts for a 12 watt adaptor.

Some fuckwits think this matters and have passed laws banning the sale of
adaptors that use more than 0.75 watts or so when off load.

DAMN   WANKERS
 Just like Sylvia.

There's a market inefficiency.

** No there is not.

An adapter that wastes 3 watts

**  The energy is not wasted.

To address this market ineffeciency,

** Which does not exist.

either ban such profligate power consumption,

** Nothing of the sort is happening.

Profligate power consumption is not due to tiny adaptors and a few watts.

Large appliances like water heaters,  air conditioners and domestic halogen
lighting are the main culprits.

Fuckwits like Sylvia can never see the wood for the trees.

Cos her ugly head is made entirely of rotten wood.

....  Phil

You seem to be assuming that the intervention is about energy
consumption. Well, maybe it is. But the intervention can be justified on
purely economic grounds. The comsumers* are better off as a result of
the intervention, even if they don't realise it.

Sylvia

[*] Except for the smally minority who unplug/switch off their adapters.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The government knows what is best for you!


Just ask sylvia.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

There are market forces moving manufacturers in the direction
of highly efficient supplies -- specifically, international sales.
Products are increasingly supplied with small switching supplies
that can work at 50 or 60 Hz, at 100 to 240 volts. Thus, only one
supply is required, regardless of where the product is sold.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!
Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet
-- there are dozens of different kinds round the world.

Can you say "simple, cheap adapter"? Sure you can.

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker"

The primary current drawn by an "off" power supply is (I believe) mostly
reactive, so (I assume) the watt-hour meter doesn't see it.

** Completely irrelevant to the question which was about "power" and not VA.

There are market forces moving manufacturers in the direction of highly
efficient supplies -- specifically, international sales. Products are
increasingly supplied with small switching supplies that can work at 50 or
60 Hz, at 100 to 240 volts. Thus, only one supply is required, regardless
of
where the product is sold.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!

Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet - there
are dozens of different kinds round the world.

So a different PHYSICAL design is therefore required for each part of the
world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Types_in_present_use


...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"PeterDope"

Depends on the quality of the transformer. A properly designed and
manufactured transformer can be very efficient. A cheap Chinese POS
can be incredibly inefficient, more a room heater than a transformer.

** The question was not about efficiency - it was about standby or "off -
load " power consumption.

The transformers fitted to most AC adaptors are designed to do a given job
while using the least amount of materials - PLUS must be completely safe to
users in case of any kind of overload or internal failure.

The trannys that have become standard practice are finely tuned to these two
requirements. Hence we see only E-core types with split bobbin construction
with fireproof insulation around the insides of the core and/or a thermal
fuse in the primary.

One sized to produce 12 watts of DC power will necessarily have a standby
power draw of a watt or two - simply as a result of the iron core being
fully magnetised all the time.

Regulations that require standby powers of 0.75 watts or less preclude to
use of such designs - certainly if the output power is more than 6 watts.

BTW

The kind of adaptors that output AC volts are simply not included in the new
regulations - since there exists no replacement for them.



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker"

** The above congenital idiot does not even read the posts he replies to.

The primary current drawn by an "off" power supply is (I believe) mostly
reactive, so (I assume) the watt-hour meter doesn't see it.

** Completely irrelevant to the question which was about "power" and not VA.

There are market forces moving manufacturers in the direction of highly
efficient supplies -- specifically, international sales. Products are
increasingly supplied with small switching supplies that can work at 50 or
60 Hz, at 100 to 240 volts. Thus, only one supply is required, regardless
of
where the product is sold.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!

Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet - there
are dozens of different kinds round the world.

So a different PHYSICAL design is therefore required for each part of the
world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Types_in_present_use


...... Phil

 

[D Yuniskis]

Phil Allison wrote:

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!

Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet - there
are dozens of different kinds round the world.

So a different PHYSICAL design is therefore required for each part of the
world.

You've apparently little experience with the *manufacturing*
side of things. Otherwise, you would realize that you can
*easily* specify a different physical power plug attached to
the *same* bit of electronics.

Indeed, some vendors now provide wall warts with interchangeable
plugs (though they *install* just one -- whichever is appropriate
for your region). The external disk drives I recently purchased
went this route (I suspect I could even remove the "plug" if
I spent 30 seconds tugging on it).

The 5V 1A wall wart that I rewired yesterday was a similar design:
the PCB within mated to a specific plug style molded into the
casing -- move the PCB to a different case and it is now suitable
for ~220VAC operation.

IIRC, certain places in England have different outlets and
within the same country/region (?). It is foolishly expensive
to design different adapter electronics just to accommodate
different plugs/voltages (my designs have used "universal
power entry" since the mid 1980's -- the choice of "plug"
being left to the power cord sold with the unit!)

 

[Phil Allison]

"D Yuniskis"

Phil Allison wrote:

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!

Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet -
there
are dozens of different kinds round the world.

So a different PHYSICAL design is therefore required for each part of
the
world.

You've apparently little experience with the *manufacturing*
side of things. Otherwise, you would realize that you can
*easily* specify a different physical power plug attached to
the *same* bit of electronics.

** My comment above still applies.

Either there is a different case and plug arrangement produced for each
market or, in some cases, a plug adaptor is attached to the existing plug.

To comply with safety rules in most places, such plug adaptors must be
permanently attached PLUS the combined contraption be not too likely to
fall out of a wall socket.

Indeed, some vendors now provide wall warts with interchangeable
plugs (though they *install* just one -- whichever is appropriate
for your region).

** Fraid that is not safety approved in most places.

The 5V 1A wall wart that I rewired yesterday was a similar design:
the PCB within mated to a specific plug style molded into the
casing -- move the PCB to a different case and it is now suitable
for ~220VAC operation.

** Backs up my point - a different PHYSICAL design is needed for each
market.

It is not possible to produce one design of "wall wart" adaptor and sell it
world wide - which was the point at issue.


...... Phil

 

[D Yuniskis]

Phil Allison wrote:

"D Yuniskis"
Phil Allison wrote:

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!

Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet -
there
are dozens of different kinds round the world.

So a different PHYSICAL design is therefore required for each part of
the world.
You've apparently little experience with the *manufacturing*
side of things. Otherwise, you would realize that you can
*easily* specify a different physical power plug attached to
the *same* bit of electronics.

** My comment above still applies.

Either there is a different case and plug arrangement produced for each
market or, in some cases, a plug adaptor is attached to the existing plug.

Yeah, and I am sure they sell pink ones and blue ones too!
But that doesn't affect the DESIGN OF THE ELECTRONICS within
(I suspect the *color* of the device does little to affect
the power consumed! :> )

To comply with safety rules in most places, such plug adaptors must be
permanently attached PLUS the combined contraption be not too likely to
fall out of a wall socket.

This is apparently not the case in the US. :>

Indeed, some vendors now provide wall warts with interchangeable
plugs (though they *install* just one -- whichever is appropriate
for your region).

** Fraid that is not safety approved in most places.

Well, I have only designed products for 7 or 8 markets so
I won't claim to be an expert here. I can talk with
friends servicing european markets (lots of countries
in a small geographical region) to see how their
experiences have fared...

The 5V 1A wall wart that I rewired yesterday was a similar design:
the PCB within mated to a specific plug style molded into the
casing -- move the PCB to a different case and it is now suitable
for ~220VAC operation.

** Backs up my point - a different PHYSICAL design is needed for each
market.

That won't affect the power consumption, heat radiated, etc.
any more than the color would. The internal design of many of
these units is the same. Certainly anything *I* have designed
in the past 25 years. And, as William pointed out, I suspect that
is becoming increasingly the case. It costs money to maintain
different designs. To do the actual engineering. To stock
the parts. To fabricate the product. To service it. Etc.
Far cheaper to come up with *a* design and just slip the guts
into a "locale specific" shell.

It is not possible to produce one design of "wall wart" adaptor and sell it
world wide - which was the point at issue.

 

[Phil Allison]

"D Yuniskis"

Phil Allison wrote:
"D Yuniskis"
Phil Allison wrote:

** Absolute BOLLOCKS !!

Small AC adaptors are built to plug into a domestic power outlet -
there are dozens of different kinds round the world.

So a different PHYSICAL design is therefore required for each part of
the world.

You've apparently little experience with the *manufacturing*
side of things. Otherwise, you would realize that you can
*easily* specify a different physical power plug attached to
the *same* bit of electronics.

** My comment above still applies.

Either there is a different case and plug arrangement produced for each
market or, in some cases, a plug adaptor is attached to the existing
plug.

Yeah, and I am sure they sell pink ones and blue ones too!
But that doesn't affect the DESIGN OF THE ELECTRONICS within

** Simply not relevent to the my point at all.

That is NOT an example of :

" .. only one supply is required, regardless of where the product is sold.
"

To comply with safety rules in most places, such plug adaptors must be
permanently attached PLUS the combined contraption be not too likely to
fall out of a wall socket.

This is apparently not the case in the US.

** Bullshit.

Indeed, some vendors now provide wall warts with interchangeable
plugs (though they *install* just one -- whichever is appropriate
for your region).

** Fraid that is not safety approved in most places.

Well, I have only designed products for 7 or 8 markets so
I won't claim to be an expert here.

** What a blatant, fucking LIE !!

Agency approval of a wall wart style adaptor requires that it have the plug
arrangement *fitted* that suits the country of sale. If the seller choses to
chuck in some plug adaptors for other places, no law is broken.

The 5V 1A wall wart that I rewired yesterday was a similar design:
the PCB within mated to a specific plug style molded into the
casing -- move the PCB to a different case and it is now suitable
for ~220VAC operation.

** Backs up my point - a different PHYSICAL design is needed for each
market.


That won't affect the power consumption, heat radiated, etc.
any more than the color would. The internal design of many of
these units is the same.

** You are now COMPLETELY off the original point.

That is NOT an example of :

" .. only one supply is required, regardless of where the product is sold.
"

IMBECILE !!

Certainly anything *I* have designed
in the past 25 years. And, as William pointed out,

( snip brain dead DRIVEL )


** It is not possible to produce one design of "wall wart" adaptor and sell
it
world wide - which was the point at issue.

In the case of iron transformer adaptors ONLY the primary winding on the
bobbin has to be changed to make 2 or 3 versions to cover the whole world.

Production runs of all versions are *huge* and nearly all come from China.

You are so utterly full of shit.

Piss off.



...... Phil