How is building bombs related to this group?

[Adam Aglionby]

"Baphomet" <fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote in message
news:vnr6ht4pln5412@corp.supernews.com...

SNIP...SNIP...SNIP...

To be honest I am more disturbed about the muttering of people about
Homeland Security in the U.S..Think Benjamin Franklin is generally
attributed the quote about those who would sacrifice freedom for
security
deserving neither.

Without getting unnecessarily political (only because this is an
inappropriate newsgroup for such) I was the one who made the original
reference to Homeland Security in this thread...and it was done in jest
and
followed with the obligatory

Ben Franklin, great thinker that he was and with this particular platitude
notwithstanding, didn't live in a post 9-11 era. What freedoms have been
sacrificed? save the freedom to commit terrorist acts with impunity.

To Americans terrorism seems only to have started afer 11th September
2001,which did not use improvised explosive devices, despite people like
Timothy McVeigh , or the UnaBomber.These people are unlikely to have asked
on a newsgroup for advice on construction.

Living in the U.K gives me a different perspective on terrorism perhaps.For
many years we lived in the shadow of Irish terrorism, kept funded in part by
donations from residents in the U.S. I was a motorcycle courier collecting
news footage from Lockerbie in the immediate aftermath of the Pan Am
explosion.

One must always guard against erosion of freedom, this is as true now, as it
was when Mr Franklin was about.
There never has been freedom for terrorist to act with impunity, but it does
not stop the terrorists. Guantanamo Bay is possibly an example of a slippery
slope, that represents sacrifice of freedom against a claim of increased
security.

There has been a great deal of equivocation in this thread about "bomb
building", chemistry sets, rocketry and education. That is pure bull. I
can't think of one positive reason for bomb building unless one has
aspirations of becoming a demolition expert, and even that goal is
dubious.

Think I mentioned pyrotechnics which have been providing entertainment since
before Christ.
Sure that some of those responsible for landing man on the moon and
launching satellites had their interest stimulated by energetic reactions
when they were young.

Explosives are an essential part of demolition , quarrying and even
manufacture.This is ignoring the huge investment by the military in
explosive development.

It is to be regretted that you have a very narrow view of what valid science
is.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything and let Tom Rastell, the sociopath
in
training, blow his damn fool head off.

Experimenting with explosives is a good way to move yourself up the league
table for receiving a Darwin Award....

Adam

 

[Baphomet]

SNIP...SNIP...SNIP...

To be honest I am more disturbed about the muttering of people about
Homeland Security in the U.S..Think Benjamin Franklin is generally
attributed the quote about those who would sacrifice freedom for security
deserving neither.

Without getting unnecessarily political (only because this is an
inappropriate newsgroup for such) I was the one who made the original
reference to Homeland Security in this thread...and it was done in jest and
followed with the obligatory

Ben Franklin, great thinker that he was and with this particular platitude
notwithstanding, didn't live in a post 9-11 era. What freedoms have been
sacrificed? save the freedom to commit terrorist acts with impunity.

There has been a great deal of equivocation in this thread about "bomb
building", chemistry sets, rocketry and education. That is pure bull. I
can't think of one positive reason for bomb building unless one has
aspirations of becoming a demolition expert, and even that goal is dubious.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything and let Tom Rastell, the sociopath in
training, blow his damn fool head off.

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet" <fandanospam@catskill.net>
wrote:

"Adam Aglionby" <nws@capersville.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OGhfb.7860$nJ4.65474708@news-text.cableinet.net...

Experimenting with explosives is a good way to move yourself up the league
table for receiving a Darwin Award....


posthumously no doubt

---
Well, errmmm, yeah...

http://www.darwinawards.com/

--
John Fields

 

[Baphomet]

"Adam Aglionby" <nws@capersville.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OGhfb.7860$nJ4.65474708@news-text.cableinet.net...

"Baphomet" <fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote in message
news:vnr6ht4pln5412@corp.supernews.com...
SNIP...SNIP...SNIP...

To be honest I am more disturbed about the muttering of people about
Homeland Security in the U.S..Think Benjamin Franklin is generally
attributed the quote about those who would sacrifice freedom for
security
deserving neither.

Without getting unnecessarily political (only because this is an
inappropriate newsgroup for such) I was the one who made the original
reference to Homeland Security in this thread...and it was done in jest
and
followed with the obligatory

Ben Franklin, great thinker that he was and with this particular
platitude
notwithstanding, didn't live in a post 9-11 era. What freedoms have been
sacrificed? save the freedom to commit terrorist acts with impunity.

To Americans terrorism seems only to have started afer 11th September
2001,which did not use improvised explosive devices, despite people like
Timothy McVeigh , or the UnaBomber.These people are unlikely to have asked
on a newsgroup for advice on construction.

Absolutely true. Terrorisim is a new phenomena for Americans and quite
frankly, scares the hell out of us.

Living in the U.K gives me a different perspective on terrorism
perhaps.For
many years we lived in the shadow of Irish terrorism, kept funded in part
by
donations from residents in the U.S. I was a motorcycle courier collecting
news footage from Lockerbie in the immediate aftermath of the Pan Am
explosion.

One must always guard against erosion of freedom, this is as true now, as
it
was when Mr Franklin was about.
There never has been freedom for terrorist to act with impunity, but it
does
not stop the terrorists. Guantanamo Bay is possibly an example of a
slippery
slope, that represents sacrifice of freedom against a claim of increased
security.

I unequivocably agree yet again. The price of freedom is eternal vigilence.
Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

There has been a great deal of equivocation in this thread about "bomb
building", chemistry sets, rocketry and education. That is pure bull. I
can't think of one positive reason for bomb building unless one has
aspirations of becoming a demolition expert, and even that goal is
dubious.

Think I mentioned pyrotechnics which have been providing entertainment
since
before Christ.
Sure that some of those responsible for landing man on the moon and
launching satellites had their interest stimulated by energetic reactions
when they were young.

Explosives are an essential part of demolition , quarrying and even
manufacture.This is ignoring the huge investment by the military in
explosive development.

It is to be regretted that you have a very narrow view of what valid
science
is.

I guess the I.R.A. were really scientists in training

Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything and let Tom Rastell, the
sociopath
in
training, blow his damn fool head off.


Experimenting with explosives is a good way to move yourself up the league
table for receiving a Darwin Award....

posthumously no doubt

 

[Garrett Mace]

It worked beautifully, went up until we lost sight of it and, presumably,
fell somewhere in the lake or, if it worked as well as it seemed, in New
York State, where I presently live. (If I ever find a long aluminum tube
in
my garden, with a ceramic nozzle at one end and a lamp shade at the other,
I'll know where it came from.)

We were just packing up and putting our launch rail into the back of Ron's
dad's pickup, (which we had "borrowed") when the RCMP. the OPP and the
RCAF
all turned up. Our rocket had set off a major NORAD alert!

Up to that time I didn't really know what the expression "deep shit"
really
meant, but I sure found out over the next few hours. We were so grounded
I
still sometimes wonder if I'm allowed out of the house!

Obviously NORAD was tracking it; I wonder if you ever asked those guys
nicely, you could get the report of that incident and find out just how high
it went! (and maybe about where it landed--or was retrieved)

 

[Dimitrij Klingbeil]

Baphomet wrote:

snip
To Americans terrorism seems only to have started afer 11th September
2001,which did not use improvised explosive devices, despite people like
Timothy McVeigh , or the UnaBomber.These people are unlikely to have
asked on a newsgroup for advice on construction.


Absolutely true. Terrorisim is a new phenomena for Americans and quite
frankly, scares the hell out of us.
snip
I unequivocably agree yet again. The price of freedom is eternal
vigilence. Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being
sacrificed by Guantanamo though.

How do you define 'vigilence' and what limits do you consider it to have?
What Stalin did was just as well 'vigilence' if one extends the limits wide
enough. I doubt, you would like to live in the mentioned area at that time,
even after 1945. An oversized 'vigilance' over a so-called communist threat
has successfully provided the world with atrocities of wars in Vietnam,
Korea (with the conflict being still far from over) and has cost many
millions of lives of innocent people. Compared to this, the 11th September
was just a drop of water in an endless sea and could well be forgotten. It
is only so well-known and feared because it struck an area widely visible
to the general public and of course because certain well-positioned teaders
do their best to intimidate vast sections of the people. Than, whom would
you like to see as a suspected terrorist? Only a couple of men within the
IRA (or UDA respectively)? A larger number of men who happen to have
behaved strangely in an occupated region (Northern Ireland, Palestine, Iraq
and some 10 more convenient places), something that is often explicable on
behalf of the situation (how would you behave if <wherever_you_live> was
occupied by foreign forces with no intent to leave)? An even larger number
of men who do not respect their governments entirely and trust them
whole-heartedly (including me for this writing)? The last plus everyone who
has non-trivial knowledge of the construction of explosive devices (many)?
Everyone who can recognize from the non-zero reading of a DC voltmeter,
which of the 2 wires is '+' and which one is '-' (surely including us)?
Everyone who happens to live in a not USA-friendly country? Finally, all of
us? One can suspect everyone of everything as long as nothing can be
proved. Well, who is than to be put into Guantanamo Bay facing conditions
equalling to torture for years withour a trial? If you don't believe this,
any survivor released due to 'lack of evidence' will be able (but not
allowed and threatened not to) to confirm it. He will probably be able to
tell things that shall put any real terrorist to shame let alone the
less-hardened people like most of us are. There were regimes in known
history that had established police states of vast extents. Some minor ones
still exist and we are far from being able to guarantee that the USA will
not pick up this behaviour. During the last years, this indeed appears not
very unlikely, especially since Bush has made the 'arms race logic' his own
and certain other governments are preparing to answer in a convenient way.
I don't know who wants another Cold War, but I do not. I do not appreciate
any terrorism including the famous war against it, neither do I apperciate
any uses of explosives other than the industrial and some other legitimate
ones. After all, I agree with Franklin just as I disagree with Bush and
what concerns the home-making of explosives and explosive devices, I do not
encourage anyone to do this, especially those of my age (20) and below.

Sorry for the OT post.

Dimitrij

---
P.S. There is no War On Terrorism - War IS Terrorism.

 

[Martin D. Bartsch]

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
<fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.


--
Martin D. Bartsch
ARD Paris
German TV Allemande

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Martin D. Bartsch wrote:

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.
Martin D. Bartsch
-----------------

Nonsense. Some would always wish us to do nothing for fear of doing
the wrong thing, but they pretend that the Good and the Right is not
obvious, which it is, and that those who do Evil are not merely LYING
and that actually they don't secretly know better, when their prior
knowledge of their evil deeds as they did them it is fully evidenced
by their whining shame and weaseling guilty shrieking when they are
being tortured to death! Bullies always apologize and forswear their
evil acts like crazy while being beaten, and those who have done
nothing wrong say no such thing. Humans have an inborn morality based
on their potential genetic social nature, which has been fulfilled in
their upbringing as humans, and those who have been raised by monsters
STILL know that when they were beaten unfairly, and abused viciously,
that it was wrong, and when they do the same to others, it is STILL
wrong.

The rich powerful bullies of the world, when caught and punished with
torture, will invariably whine and cry for their dreadful mistakes that
they imagined they would get away with, but they will only whine when
they don't!! We need to make examples of them, so others will NOT
imagine they can get away with the abuse of others! Those who pretend
that we "might do wrong" have merely been brainwashed by these Evil
Ones, so to provide a refuge for them when they try to run and hide at
the last, before we catch them and torture them.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[Adam Aglionby]

"Baphomet" <fandaDEATH2SPAMMERS@catskill.net> wrote in message
news:vo2kqomnr5vead@corp.supernews.com...

"Martin D. Bartsch" <M.D.Bartsch@web.de> wrote in message
news:7afunv8u0i6mrp4cs8scvovm8an3h246aa@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being
sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.


Well, since I am not a terrorist and have no aspirations or sympathies
toward same, I wouldn't expect that I would find myself in that situation.

Ferking heck, get back to electronics eventually....

Word for today is "suspected" as in suspicion and suspect.

What the so called civilised world prides itself on and looks down on others
for is justice. The mainstay of that is a `suspect` is innocent until
proven guilty unlike some systems where innocence must be proven.

What one may expect and what one receives can be two totally different
things.

Adam

 

[Baphomet]

"Martin D. Bartsch" <M.D.Bartsch@web.de> wrote in message
news:7afunv8u0i6mrp4cs8scvovm8an3h246aa@4ax.com...

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being
sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.

Well, since I am not a terrorist and have no aspirations or sympathies
toward same, I wouldn't expect that I would find myself in that situation.

 

[Baphomet]

"Dimitrij Klingbeil" <dklingb@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:blq37b$rt1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de...

Baphomet wrote:

snip
To Americans terrorism seems only to have started afer 11th September
2001,which did not use improvised explosive devices, despite people
like
Timothy McVeigh , or the UnaBomber.These people are unlikely to have
asked on a newsgroup for advice on construction.


Absolutely true. Terrorisim is a new phenomena for Americans and quite
frankly, scares the hell out of us.
snip
I unequivocably agree yet again. The price of freedom is eternal
vigilence. Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are
being
sacrificed by Guantanamo though.

How do you define 'vigilence' and what limits do you consider it to have?

Ah Dimitrij, you have asked the $64,000 question and I'm not sure I am the
most appropriate person to provide that answer...but since that never
stopped me
before, here goes.

What Stalin did was just as well 'vigilence' if one extends the limits
wide enough.

True, but in any reasoned discussion, it is crucial to define terms and
limits before the fact, not after. I also categorically reject any
comparisons between the Stalinist Regime and the Bush Administration vis a
vis Guantanomo. Have you no sense of proportion?


I doubt, you would like to live in the mentioned area at that

time, even after 1945. An oversized 'vigilance' over a so-called communist
threat has successfully provided the world with atrocities of wars in
Vietnam,

The only way that Vietnam makes any sense at all (I was there and it just
goes to show how crazy the human species really is) is to put an
anthropomorphic overlay over the situation. The U.S. was defending the honor
of its bitch, France, after being humiliated in Dien Bien Phu in 1954. From
Americas point of view, it certainly wasn't about resources and probably had
little to do with the containment of communism.

Korea (with the conflict being still far from over) and has cost many
millions of lives of innocent people. Compared to this, the 11th September
was just a drop of water in an endless sea and could well be forgotten.

From a global perspective, a drop in the bucket perhaps. Locally, a cause
celebrč for a forceful and justifiable response. In spite of America's short
attention span, I doubt it will be soon forgotten by us, nor should it be.

It is only so well-known and feared because it struck an area widely
visible
to the general public and of course because certain well-positioned
teaders do their best to intimidate vast sections of the people. Than,
whom would
you like to see as a suspected terrorist?

My preference would be for terrorists not to exist at all; this might
include, but not necessarily be limited to, eliminating the root causes of
terrorism (hopelessness, gross inequity, poverty, tribalism, religious
fanaticisim, ignorance etc.)


Only a couple of men within the

IRA (or UDA respectively)? A larger number of men who happen to have
behaved strangely in an occupated region (Northern Ireland, Palestine,
Iraq
and some 10 more convenient places), something that is often explicable on
behalf of the situation (how would you behave if <wherever_you_live> was
occupied by foreign forces with no intent to leave)?

It would piss me off, and I believe that is what the American Revolutionary
War was all about...but let's not confuse traditional warfare with
terrorism. While innocents invariably get killed in warfare as an
unfortunate byproduct (euphemistically called collateral damage), terrorists
deliberately target innocents for slaughter.

An even larger number
of men who do not respect their governments entirely and trust them
whole-heartedly (including me for this writing)?

And every other intelligent and thinking person; eternal vigilance flows
both ways ;-)


minor snip for clarity........................................

Finally, all of us? One can suspect everyone of everything as long as
nothing can be
proved. Well, who is than to be put into Guantanamo Bay facing conditions
equalling to torture for years withour a trial?

S'il ressemble ŕ un canard, marche comme un canard, et parle comme un
canard, c'est probablement un canard. When members of the Taliban were
rounded up with weapons in terrorist training camps, or hiding in caves, I
think it's fair to say that they weren't merely innocent bystanders.
Confinement in Guantanamo is hardly tantamount to torture although if it
were up to me, it just might be.

If you don't believe this, any survivor released due to 'lack of evidence'
will be able (but not
allowed and threatened not to) to confirm it. He will probably be able to
tell things that shall put any real terrorist to shame let alone the
less-hardened people like most of us are. There were regimes in known
history that had established police states of vast extents. Some minor
ones still exist and we are far from being able to guarantee that the USA
will
not pick up this behaviour. During the last years, this indeed appears not
very unlikely, especially since Bush has made the 'arms race logic' his
own
and certain other governments are preparing to answer in a convenient way.
I don't know who wants another Cold War, but I do not. I do not appreciate
any terrorism including the famous war against it, neither do I apperciate
any uses of explosives other than the industrial and some other legitimate
ones. After all, I agree with Franklin just as I disagree with Bush and
what concerns the home-making of explosives and explosive devices, I do
not
encourage anyone to do this, especially those of my age (20) and below.

"Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its
failures" - Santayana
Unfortunately and given that we are human with all of its attendant
imperfections, those that remember those lessons will probably repeat the
same old mistakes anyway.

Sorry for the OT post.

Dimitrij

---
P.S. There is no War On Terrorism - War IS Terrorism.

 

[Baphomet]

"Adam Aglionby" <nws@capersville.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rNcgb.10413$S83.88023251@news-text.cableinet.net...

"Baphomet" <fandaDEATH2SPAMMERS@catskill.net> wrote in message
news:vo2kqomnr5vead@corp.supernews.com...

"Martin D. Bartsch" <M.D.Bartsch@web.de> wrote in message
news:7afunv8u0i6mrp4cs8scvovm8an3h246aa@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being
sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.


Well, since I am not a terrorist and have no aspirations or sympathies
toward same, I wouldn't expect that I would find myself in that
situation.


Ferking heck, get back to electronics eventually....

Adam...you are correct. Fascinating though this topic and its responses may
be (and the genesis of the original post was "How do I build a bomb" or
something similar, it's time to get get back to electronics biz.

Word for today is "suspected" as in suspicion and suspect.

What the so called civilised world prides itself on and looks down on
others
for is justice. The mainstay of that is a `suspect` is innocent until
proven guilty unlike some systems where innocence must be proven.

What one may expect and what one receives can be two totally different
things.

Adam

 

[Martin D. Bartsch]

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:23:42 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com>
wrote:

We need to make examples of them, so others will NOT
imagine they can get away with the abuse of others!

The history of death penalty shows that you are wrong


--
Martin D. Bartsch
ARD Paris
German TV Allemande

 

[Martin D. Bartsch]

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 07:34:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
<fandaDEATH2SPAMMERS@catskill.net> wrote:

Well, since I am not a terrorist and have no aspirations or sympathies
toward same, I wouldn't expect that I would find myself in that situation.

Regarding my country's history I find lots of people who found
themselves behind walls and electric fences without expecting that
with their I. WW medals.


--
Martin D. Bartsch
ARD Paris
German TV Allemande

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Martin D. Bartsch wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:23:42 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com
wrote:

We need to make examples of them, so others will NOT
imagine they can get away with the abuse of others!

The history of death penalty shows that you are wrong
-----------------------------

Murderers are irrational. They kill out of passion, and deterrence
does nothing against them, it even attracts psychopaths to copy it.

But making examples of calculated corporate, political, and economic
criminals and thieves does indeed deter those crimes. Torturing them
at half time at sporting events makes the point quite poignantly!

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Baphomet wrote:

"Martin D. Bartsch" <M.D.Bartsch@web.de> wrote in message
news:7afunv8u0i6mrp4cs8scvovm8an3h246aa@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being
sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.


Well, since I am not a terrorist and have no aspirations or sympathies
toward same, I wouldn't expect that I would find myself in that situation.

And there you could be badly mistaken. Like that taxi driver from
Kandahar who, for reasons never explained, got arrested by US troops as
a suspected terrorist. Got transported to Kuba, held there for several
months, rudely interrogated and was finally released. No explanation, no
appology and certainly no compensation.

Thats what happens if power is not held in check by law and proper
procedure.

 

[Baphomet]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" <engelbert_buxbaum@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bme13u$eoe$06$1@news.t-online.com...

Baphomet wrote:


"Martin D. Bartsch" <M.D.Bartsch@web.de> wrote in message
news:7afunv8u0i6mrp4cs8scvovm8an3h246aa@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:17:45 -0700, "Baphomet"
fandanospam@catskill.net> wrote:

Don't know whose freedoms (save suspected terrorists) are being
sacrificed
by Guantanamo though.

You will understand it when you are in a prison like that without any
rights, but then it is too late.


Well, since I am not a terrorist and have no aspirations or sympathies
toward same, I wouldn't expect that I would find myself in that
situation.

And there you could be badly mistaken. Like that taxi driver from
Kandahar who, for reasons never explained, got arrested by US troops as
a suspected terrorist. Got transported to Kuba, held there for several
months, rudely interrogated and was finally released. No explanation, no
appology and certainly no compensation.

Thats what happens if power is not held in check by law and proper
procedure.

Well, I guess to every rule lives the exception...so I guess it amounts to
statistical probability. One exception (or even several) doesn't necessarily
negate a sound policy; suffice it to say, none of us would want to be that
exception.