How do variable-speed 3-phase motor drives actually work?

[Robert Macy]

On Mar 9, 5:01 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

"Robbie Hatley = mad as a Hatter "
Hatters have no more likelyhood of being "mad" (either insane
or merely angry) than persons of any other profession.

Mercury poisoning, from the compounds using in felting.

I recall it's from the mercury fumes. There was a region in south bay,
CA called cinnabar, always thought the people form that region were a
bit odd, now I know why.

Yet, ingesting mercury causes nephritis, as in Madame Bovary, go
figure.

 

[josephkk]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 02:11:08 -0800, Robbie Hatley
<see.my.signature@for.my.contact.info> wrote:

Yabbut, Phil Allison left a lot out.

These are called variable frequency drives. They produce a PWM output
that induces a frequency and voltage controlled sinusoidal current in the
motor. The typical voltage limit is related to motor rated voltage and
for 480 V system rated (460 V nameplate) is about 8 V per Hz at any
frequency that produces less than full rated voltage. If you use properly
burdened current transformers to measure phase current you will see a much
more informative display on your 'scope.

That said, 400 Hz switching frequency is uncommonly low and would take
excessive load reactors to smooth out. Modern units are a few to several
KHz PWM base. IGBTs tend to be rather slow, but they are getting better.
Of course they pretty well better, there are super power fets with ratings
that would make early IGBTs shudder.

Someone named Phil Allison apparently replied to my message about
variable-speed motor drives, but I never got that message direct.
(Lost in the ether of Usenet?) I did get someone named "Jamie"
replying to it, though, so I can reply. (Lemme strip off one
layer of ">". Done.)

Please do NOT strip the ">". They help others keep track of who said
what.

Phil Allison writes:

The technique is called PWM

While it's true that the pulse widths change, this is kinda
far removed from what I normally think of as being PWM.
I generally think of PWM as feeding variable-duty-cycle DC pulses
into an LC filter so as to get a DC voltage proportional to
duty cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

Ok, lemme read and see if there's a variant of PWM that acts
like what I'm seeing in these motor drives.

::: read, read, read :::

Yes, you're right. Thanks for the link! First page has a
picture that shows why I'm seeing 400Hz where I expected 2Hz:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/PWM%2C_3-level.svg

Basically uses the inductance of the motor windings and the magnetic
reluctance of the core to convert the 400Hz electric pulses into
2Hz or 20Hz or 38Hz (or whatever) magnetic sine waves.

I also see a link on W'pedia's PWM page to the particular type of
PWM used for 3-phase variable-speed AC motors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_vector_modulation

Very cool chart there showing 8 different valid states that
a 6-IGBT bridge can be in (and hinting at the various catastrophic
*unallowable* states as well -- I've experienced some of *those*).

Turns out, 6 of the 8 states line up with the axes of the 3 phases,
and the remaining 2 (000 and 111) correspond to "off" states.

The duty cycle of the 400Hz rectangular wave is slowly modulated
to create low frequencies in the 3 phases required.

Apparently so.

A steady 50% duty cycle wave at 400Hz creates no torque in the motor
as the average value is zero

Yep, if all 3 phases are in-phase, speed will be 0RPM and current
will be very low (10ma? 1ma?) even if the voltages are 320V p-p,
because the voltage across each winding is near 0.

and the motor's inductance at thatfrequency causes little current
to flow.

I think any current at 0RPM would have to be due to parasitic
capacitance. With 0V across each coil at all times, nowhere else
for current to flow to.

Shallow modulation depth creates the low voltages needed for
slow running.

I think it's the brief periods of time that one phase is "Hi" while
another phase has switched "Lo" that creates the pulses of differential
voltage necessary to ramp up magnetic flux. If these "overlap zones"
are then rotated around the 3 phases at 10 rotations per second
clockwise, the motor should spin clockwise at 600RPM.

I think the overlap durations would need to be proportional to
actual power draw, in order to keep the speed from bogging down
under load. Perhaps that's why these devices all have current
sensors: not so much to protect from overcurrent (though there
is that), but mainly to calculate phase overlap durations.


Anyway, Phil, thanks for the link; it answers my questions and
then some.


PS: I'll also reply briefly here to the other 2 responders:

Jamie: Actually, Phil's right.

Sylvia: Yep, the physics described in W'pedia's PWM and SVM pages
does match what I'm seeing on the bench.

 

[Jamie]

josephkk wrote:

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 02:11:08 -0800, Robbie Hatley
see.my.signature@for.my.contact.info> wrote:

Yabbut, Phil Allison left a lot out.

These are called variable frequency drives. They produce a PWM output
that induces a frequency and voltage controlled sinusoidal current in the
motor. The typical voltage limit is related to motor rated voltage and
for 480 V system rated (460 V nameplate) is about 8 V per Hz at any
frequency that produces less than full rated voltage. If you use properly
burdened current transformers to measure phase current you will see a much
more informative display on your 'scope.

That said, 400 Hz switching frequency is uncommonly low and would take
excessive load reactors to smooth out. Modern units are a few to several
KHz PWM base. IGBTs tend to be rather slow, but they are getting better.
Of course they pretty well better, there are super power fets with ratings
that would make early IGBTs shudder.


Someone named Phil Allison apparently replied to my message about
variable-speed motor drives, but I never got that message direct.
(Lost in the ether of Usenet?) I did get someone named "Jamie"
replying to it, though, so I can reply. (Lemme strip off one
layer of ">". Done.)


Please do NOT strip the ">". They help others keep track of who said
what.

Phil Allison writes:


The technique is called PWM

While it's true that the pulse widths change, this is kinda
far removed from what I normally think of as being PWM.
I generally think of PWM as feeding variable-duty-cycle DC pulses
into an LC filter so as to get a DC voltage proportional to
duty cycle.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

Ok, lemme read and see if there's a variant of PWM that acts
like what I'm seeing in these motor drives.

::: read, read, read :::

Yes, you're right. Thanks for the link! First page has a
picture that shows why I'm seeing 400Hz where I expected 2Hz:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/PWM%2C_3-level.svg

Basically uses the inductance of the motor windings and the magnetic
reluctance of the core to convert the 400Hz electric pulses into
2Hz or 20Hz or 38Hz (or whatever) magnetic sine waves.

I also see a link on W'pedia's PWM page to the particular type of
PWM used for 3-phase variable-speed AC motors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_vector_modulation

Very cool chart there showing 8 different valid states that
a 6-IGBT bridge can be in (and hinting at the various catastrophic
*unallowable* states as well -- I've experienced some of *those*).

Turns out, 6 of the 8 states line up with the axes of the 3 phases,
and the remaining 2 (000 and 111) correspond to "off" states.


The duty cycle of the 400Hz rectangular wave is slowly modulated
to create low frequencies in the 3 phases required.

Apparently so.


A steady 50% duty cycle wave at 400Hz creates no torque in the motor
as the average value is zero

Yep, if all 3 phases are in-phase, speed will be 0RPM and current
will be very low (10ma? 1ma?) even if the voltages are 320V p-p,
because the voltage across each winding is near 0.


and the motor's inductance at thatfrequency causes little current
to flow.

I think any current at 0RPM would have to be due to parasitic
capacitance. With 0V across each coil at all times, nowhere else
for current to flow to.


Shallow modulation depth creates the low voltages needed for
slow running.

I think it's the brief periods of time that one phase is "Hi" while
another phase has switched "Lo" that creates the pulses of differential
voltage necessary to ramp up magnetic flux. If these "overlap zones"
are then rotated around the 3 phases at 10 rotations per second
clockwise, the motor should spin clockwise at 600RPM.

I think the overlap durations would need to be proportional to
actual power draw, in order to keep the speed from bogging down
under load. Perhaps that's why these devices all have current
sensors: not so much to protect from overcurrent (though there
is that), but mainly to calculate phase overlap durations.


Anyway, Phil, thanks for the link; it answers my questions and
then some.


PS: I'll also reply briefly here to the other 2 responders:

Jamie: Actually, Phil's right.

Sylvia: Yep, the physics described in W'pedia's PWM and SVM pages
does match what I'm seeing on the bench.


I find it ironic how little knowledge about a subject can make people

assume the most off key ideas and then, able to have others believe it.

I on the other hand, work with this stuff, A lot.. 400 Hz is not the
switching frequency used today. It may work on large motors, it does not
work on smaller motors.

400 Hz is the maximum of most inverters on the market that you can
generate, that is, if the motor itself can handle that speed. In many
cases, 400 hz output inverters are pumped into a transformer where it
can then be used to drive other equipment, like induction heaters and
like. Btw, We also have several induction heaters that use a inverter
drive up to 700 hz output how ever, the PWM is actually around 15kHz.

It's unbelievable how people can go running to a web site and grossly
miss understand what they're reading. On top of that, how about the
articles that are placed on the net by those that have it wrong in the
first place.

No, I go by what is actually being used out there. 400 Hz is not it,
it is how ever, the top end of most inverters that produce a form of
switched wave into a motor working with induction of the motor, but that
is being generated via a 8khz or more, pwm pulse.

If any one ever looks at a vector drive, the magnetic current is
normally set at 50% of the motors max current or what ever the suggested
max is on the name plate of the motor. That motor will sit there at a
stall speed of 0 RPM but, will have at least 8khz or more pulsing in the
fields to maintain as near DC perfect current as possible. Of course,
the cheaper inverters do not have a high enough resolution output in
them and at times, you may see a creep in the shaft that is hard to stop
using open loop control at 0 speed. Mechanical load can be factored in
to stop that or, just use a feed back system.


Jamie

 

[josephkk]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:30:58 -0800, "Robbie Hatley"
<see.my.sig@for.my.contact.info> wrote:

etpm@whidbey.com writes:

Robbie,
Phil Allison is sufering from some type of mental disease. He does
know some about electronics but most times just posts abusive
language. Most folks just killfile him and so they don't see his
original posts.
Eric

Well, he's certainly eccentric. But as for "mental disease", that's a metaphor,
not an actual thing. I think Phil just has a habit of over-reacting emotionally
to things and "going off". If he looses that habit, things will improve for
him and those around him.

Umm, no. We are talking about medically diagnosed and on prescription
medication. When he posts within his competence he is usually spot on,
and often not vulgar or abusive.

?-)