How can we tell from a WiFi card spec whether the NIC is 2.4

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 04:56:58 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

Like Jeff says, the specs should say if it supports B/G or not. If it
does, then it has 2.4 ghz. The one thing that wasn't posted was the
link to the actual HP card so we could look.

I apologize and agree.
I had posted a screen shot of all the information that HP provides:
But that's all I have.

The problem is, if I look at a DELL or Toshiba or Lenovo laptop, I'll
still have the SAME PROBLEM of figuring out whether it has 5GHz or 2.4GHz
or both, from the specs.

So, it behooves us to be able to read the specs.

From what Jeff said, all I can tell is (is this correct?):
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz only?
802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

Basically, if it has an "a" in the description, then it's 5GHz.
Otherwise, it's 2.4GHz.

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 04:36:43 -0400, noname wrote:

FWIW, this Lenovo ThinkPad W550s has two cards listed as options:

-- Intel 7265 BGN + Bluetooth Version 4.0"

-- Intel 7265 AC/B/G/N Dual Band Wireless + Bluetooth Version 4.0"

Since this thread is really about INTERPRETING specs, is this
interpretation correct?

1. Intel 7265 BGN + Bluetooth Version 4.0
Would it be safe to assume this has *only* 2.4GHz?

2. Intel 7265 AC/B/G/N Dual Band Wireless + Bluetooth Version 4.0
Is it safe to assume this has *both* 2.4GHz & 5GHz?

 

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 14:51:42 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> -AC mode runs on 5GHz band, -N can run on either.

So, if 'n' can run on either, when a spec only says 'b/g/n',
how do you know whether the 'n' is 2.4GHz or 5GHz?

 

[Tony Hwang]

Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 22:48:56 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

1. 802.11b/g/n WLAN [1x1]
2. 802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1]
3. Intel 802.11ac WLAN and
Bluetooth(R) [1x1]

Which of those is *both* 2.4GHz and 5GHz? How do I know?

Again No. 3 Looks like basic dual band being 1x1, not 2x2 or 3x3.

I'm still confused.

Number 3 is: "Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth [1x1]".
So, what does that tell us?

Are we saying the "ac" is both 2.4GHz & 5GHz by virtue of the "a" in "ac"?

I am out of this thread. You are impossible.
When e say it is dual band it is. If you can't believe why don't you ask
HP? So much hassle buying a laptop.

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:45:22 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

I am out of this thread. You are impossible.
When e say it is dual band it is. If you can't believe why don't you ask
HP? So much hassle buying a laptop.

You have absolutely no idea what you're suggesting.

Here is the transcript!

Read it and then suggest I contact HP.

This is an automated email sent from the HP Home & Home Office Store
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The following information is a log of your session.
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Time Details
09/06/2015 08:15:30PM System: "Welcome to hp.com sales serving the
United States. Your chat transcript will be emailed to the email address
that you input when registered shortly after the chat is completed."
09/06/2015 08:15:32PM System: "If you are looking for HP product
support, service, parts or non-US help, please visit: http://www8.hp.com/
us/en/contact-hp/contact.html"
09/06/2015 08:15:34PM System: "If you still need US sales or ordering
assistance, please stay in queue. Our chat sales representative will be
with you shortly."
09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Session Started with Agent (Paige M)
09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Ewald Bohm: "Does the HP 15z laptop come with
dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz? http://www.costco.com/HP-15z-
Laptop-|-AMD-E1-|-Windows-10.product.100222779.html"
09/06/2015 08:16:14PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for contacting the
hp.com Sales Center and welcome to our Labor Day Sale. My name is Paige.
I've read your question and am ready to assist you."
09/06/2015 08:16:59PM Agent (Paige M): "I can see you need to know if
the HP 15z laptop come with dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz. I'd be
glad to check on this for you."
09/06/2015 08:17:00PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige M."
09/06/2015 08:17:45PM Ewald Bohm: "I just want to know if the HP 15z
laptop has a WiFi card that is dual band (i.e., it has both 2.4Ghz and
5GHz) or not. The idiotic specification sheet on the HP web site doesn't
say!"
09/06/2015 08:18:04PM Ewald Bohm: "This is the spec sheet:"
09/06/2015 08:18:05PM Ewald Bohm: "http://store.hp.com/us/en/
ConfigureView?
storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&catEntryId=998656&quantity=1&color=Natural
+silver"
09/06/2015 08:18:42PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for the link, let me
go and check it."
09/06/2015 08:20:08PM Ewald Bohm: "That spec sheet lists three options
for WiFi cards, but not one mentions the band!

802.11b/g/n WLAN [1x1] Included in price
802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$10.00
Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$30.00"
09/06/2015 08:21:45PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for your patience."
09/06/2015 08:23:06PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
Also, is there tax and shipping to NJ?"
09/06/2015 08:23:59PM Agent (Paige M): "The 802.11b/g/n WLAN and
Bluetooth(R) [1x1] is 5GHz. The Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R)
[1x1] is at 433 Mbps stream at 3GHz."
09/06/2015 08:24:38PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive there is tax in the
unit but not in the shipping."
09/06/2015 08:25:37PM Agent (Paige M): "I am not entirely sure though,
it is best to contact our Product Expert to have more details about your
concern."
09/06/2015 08:25:49PM Agent (Paige M): "I’ve checked all of my
resources and I'm still unable to validate this."
09/06/2015 08:25:54PM Agent (Paige M): "Please call 866.221.4553? An HP
expert will be able to assist you and answer any remaining questions that
you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00 AM - 10:00 PM Mountain,
Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM – 10PM MT."
09/06/2015 08:26:21PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
I have never seen in my life a WiFi card that was 5GHz and not ALSO 2.4
GHz; but I have seen many 2.4GHz WiFi cards that were not 5GHz. I have
NEVER seen in my life (I don't believe it exists) a 3GHz WiFi card. Are
you sure about those specs? Th"
&nbsp ey make no sense, to me, and I know this stuff pretty well.
09/06/2015 08:27:27PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
Are the HP telephone support folks open tomorrow? (Labor Day)"
09/06/2015 08:28:40PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive they are open but you
can try calling."
09/06/2015 08:29:16PM Agent (Paige M): "We did not get any instructions
if they are closed or not. But it is better to try to call still."
09/06/2015 08:29:31PM Agent (Paige M): "Is there anything else I can
assist you with today?"
09/06/2015 08:30:29PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige
This was not satisfactory. May I talk to a supervisor? The question is
SIMPLE. It's actually EXTREMELY SIMPLE. It's not a difficult question.
The answer you gave makes absolutely no sense. Is there someone else I
can speak with? This is not a dif"
&nbsp ficult question.
09/06/2015 08:32:30PM Ewald Bohm: "Are you there?"
09/06/2015 08:33:15PM Ewald Bohm: "?"
09/06/2015 08:33:31PM Agent (Vann): "Hi!"
09/06/2015 08:35:14PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
Thank you for trying to help me.
I am asking a simple question.
Do you need me to repeat the question?"
09/06/2015 08:36:41PM Ewald Bohm: "Is anyone there?"
09/06/2015 08:36:47PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am here."
09/06/2015 08:36:53PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the long wait."
09/06/2015 08:37:02PM Agent (Vann): "I was reading your chat session
with Paige."
09/06/2015 08:40:18PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
OK. I'll wait while you review the session so that I won't need to repeat
anything.
Basically, I can't believe it's this difficult to just ascertain whether
the laptop has a WiFi card that handles both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz
bands.
Also, since"
&nbsp that simple question wasn't answered, it's hard to know if the
answer I got regarding the shipping being free but that there was tax, is
correct, or not.
Neither of these questions is difficult for someone who handles basic
(and these are EXTREMELY BASIC
&nbsp questions) computer questions.
09/06/2015 08:41:03PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I see that you have
questions, Ewald."
09/06/2015 08:41:05PM Ewald Bohm: "If the spec sheet simply gave the
information that it should give, I wouldn't even NEED to ask these
questions."
09/06/2015 08:41:47PM Ewald Bohm: "I know the broken record; and I know
that you're taught to "reflect" the customer's question - but let's just
get the answer please (I was a customer support manager for two decades)."
09/06/2015 08:41:54PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I understand that our website
product information is very limited."
09/06/2015 08:43:31PM Agent (Vann): "The shipping charge is zero and
that is for free."
09/06/2015 08:44:03PM Agent (Vann): "Sales tax will apply to the
product price itself and its computation is based on the shipping zip
code and state."
09/06/2015 08:45:12PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
Thank you for confirming that the sales tax is based on where the item
will be shipped and that the shipping is free.
Now all we need to know is whether the three WiFi card options available
for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both."
09/06/2015 08:45:30PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am actually checking on
that."
09/06/2015 08:46:04PM Agent (Vann): "Honestly, our tools and resources
are very limited to answer your question."
09/06/2015 08:46:16PM Agent (Vann): "I totally understand why the agent
referred you to our product expert."
09/06/2015 08:46:25PM Agent (Vann): "However, let own this question and
I will this to you."
09/06/2015 08:46:28PM Agent (Vann): "*answer."
09/06/2015 08:46:35PM Agent (Vann): "Now, can you give me 1-2 minutes
of your time."
09/06/2015 08:46:41PM Agent (Vann): "I am checking on something here."
09/06/2015 08:47:43PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald,"
09/06/2015 08:47:46PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for that."
09/06/2015 08:48:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I am here - and will wait."
09/06/2015 08:49:00PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I can tell this by the
decription of the WLAN card. Everytime you see a wlan card listed as b/g/
n, it is a single band (2.4 GHz) card."
09/06/2015 08:49:58PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann"
09/06/2015 08:50:03PM Agent (Vann): "I found more information here."
09/06/2015 08:52:01PM Ewald Bohm: "oooPS.
Hi VAnn,
I believe you can have 5GHz on "n"but not on "g" but I can check that
out. Certainly "ac" would benefit from 5GHz, but are you saying that only
the "ac" card is 5GHz?"
09/06/2015 08:52:54PM Agent (Vann): "I am verifying that."
09/06/2015 08:53:17PM Agent (Vann): "I cannot confirm it yet and this
is based on something that I am not sure of."
09/06/2015 08:54:33PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
Look at this web site (http://pocketnow.com/2014/01/23/5ghz-wifi).
Notice that "b" and "g" are ONLY 2.4GHz - but - notice that either "n" or
"ac" is also 5GHz."
09/06/2015 08:57:20PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks!"
09/06/2015 08:57:32PM Agent (Vann): "Let me check that."
09/06/2015 08:59:32PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
So, we still don't have the answer, since clearly both "n" and "ac" can
do 2.4GHz and 5GHz - the only difference is that "n" can do either one at
a time while "ac" does both at the same time - but that's not my question.
My question is whether th"
&nbsp e "n" and "ac" cards from HP for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz
or both.
Thanks for "owning" this issue to the conclusion - since - it's actually
an easy question - for someone who has the spec to answer.
In fact, I fault HP for not putting that answer on
&nbsp the web site since it's a CRITICAL question to ask!
09/06/2015 09:00:18PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I see where you are coming
from."
09/06/2015 09:00:53PM Agent (Vann): "I even sent a quick email to the
marketing department and web content team to put a brief pertinent
description of each wi-fi options."
09/06/2015 09:04:48PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
As I had said, I was a customer-support manager for twenty years and I
found only about 10% of the support team would take the time to solve
long-term problems such as missing information in a web page; therefore,
I do appreciate that you are in"
&nbsp the top 10% for "owning" the problem, and I appreciate that.
I'm still not sure though, whether the specific cards available for this
laptop have "both" 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands, since we have ascertained that
"n" can be either (just not at the same time), w
&nbsp hile "ac" also can be either (but if it has both, it can do both
at the same time).
So, the FREQUENCY BAND is a critical piece of data that a person needs to
figure out if their laptop will connect to the "n" or "ac" 2.4GHz or 5GHz
bands.
09/06/2015 09:04:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, as far as what I understood
in my readings here. You need a dual band that can support both 2.5 and 5
Ghz."
09/06/2015 09:05:26PM Agent (Vann): "This is what you need WLAN 802.11
ac 2x2 ."
09/06/2015 09:05:35PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
Yes. I will ONLY BUY a dual-band card. I am just trying to figure out
which card(s) that fit that laptop are dual band."
09/06/2015 09:05:50PM Ewald Bohm: "Note: It's 2.4GHz and not 2.5GHz."
09/06/2015 09:06:10PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the typo error."
09/06/2015 09:06:18PM Agent (Vann): "So you are saying that your router
has a dual band?"
09/06/2015 09:08:41PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
I know MANY (most) "ac" cards will be dual band. But, remember, an "ac"
card can also be one or the other. So, I am just trying to CONFIRM
whether the "n" and "ac" cards you offer actually make use of both bands.
(I know that the "n" can make use"
&nbsp of either band, and so can the "ac", with the only difference not
mattering to this question that "ac" can do it simultaneously).
But, "ac" can't do it simultaneously if it doesn't have both bands, and
"n" cards can be of three types (1) only 2.4, (2) o
&nbsp nly 5Ghz, or (3) both 2.4GHz and 5GHz.
As for my router, it is dual band (both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz) and it is an
AC1750.
09/06/2015 09:14:10PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
The 802.11n spec allows up to 4 transmit and four receive antennas
(802.11n supports up to 4x4), so, again, just knowing it's 2x2 or 4x4
does not tell me what the bands are."
09/06/2015 09:17:33PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I am sorry if I kept you
waiting."
09/06/2015 09:17:40PM Ewald Bohm: "I'm here ..."
09/06/2015 09:18:06PM Agent (Vann): "This is overly complicated and it
would be better you consult our product expert."
09/06/2015 09:18:23PM Agent (Vann): "As far as I know that if it has a
1x1 that is a single band which can support up to 2.4ghz/"
09/06/2015 09:19:36PM Ewald Bohm: "The 1x1 means one (dedicated)
transmit antenna and 1 (dedicated) receive antenna; the antenna itself
can be any frequency (either 2.4GHz or 5GHz) but almost all the time, it
is 2.4GHz (I agree) but it does not have to be since the 1x1 is
indicating the de"
&nbsp dicated "channels" and NOT the frequency band!
09/06/2015 09:20:46PM Agent (Vann): "It looks you've done more research
on this and you get a lot of understanding how these things work."
09/06/2015 09:21:36PM Agent (Vann): "Can you check this link http://
www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/next-gen-80211ac-
wifi-for-dummies.pdf"
09/06/2015 09:21:58PM Ewald Bohm: "I know that the 2x2 has two
dedicated "channels" (i.e., antennae), 2 for transmit and 2 for receive.
But, again, that does not indicate the FREQUENCY. It "could" mean that
they are using 2 frequencies - but - it could also mean that they're NOT
using 2 d"
&nbsp ifferent frequencies.
09/06/2015 09:22:07PM Ewald Bohm: "checking the link ..."
09/06/2015 09:22:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Looking for the specific page ..."
09/06/2015 09:24:08PM Agent (Vann): "I also read from the HP Forums."
09/06/2015 09:24:09PM Agent (Vann): "http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/
Wireless-Internet-Home-Networking/WiFi-Connections-HP-laptop-unable-to-
find-5Ghz-wireless/td-p/3300523"
09/06/2015 09:24:31PM Agent (Vann): "A dual band card would be listed
as either a/b/g/n or a/g/n."
09/06/2015 09:25:00PM Ewald Bohm: "VAnn, you'll notice that, on page 10
of the wifi for dummies, it confirms what I said, which is (verbatim):
"In the vernacular of the new multispeed Wi-Fi stan
-
dards, the number of send and receive antennas and
stream configurations are noted as 1x1 (o"
&nbsp ne antenna
supporting one data stream), 2x2 (two antennas sup
-
porting two data streams), and 3x3. Table 2-2 compares
the performance of antenna and stream configurations
in the 802.11n and 802.11ac standards"
09/06/2015 09:25:31PM Ewald Bohm: "So, the 2x2 just means the number of
antennas. It tells us NOTHING about the frequency."
09/06/2015 09:26:15PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I will have to refer this
to our product expert and I shall email you the answer."
09/06/2015 09:26:38PM Agent (Vann): "This would consume so much of our
time and this is something that I cannot confirm."
09/06/2015 09:26:44PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi VAnn,
An "n" card can be dual band - but an "n" card can also be single band.
That is why the SPECIFICATION is so important. We'd never have to ASK the
question if the spec simply said what it should say!"
09/06/2015 09:26:48PM Agent (Vann): "I admired how you are really want
to get the answer of this."
09/06/2015 09:28:23PM Agent (Vann): "I will email the product expert
with your questions."
09/06/2015 09:28:24PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
If the specifications were written correctly, we'd never have to ask. In
the book you kindly referenced, you'll see this exact quote on the first
line of page 11:
"Wi-Fi works over two spectrum bands: 2.4 GHz and
5 GHz. Older 802.11bgn uses the"
&nbsp 2.4 GHz frequency"
09/06/2015 09:28:35PM Agent (Vann): "Can you summarize your questions
now so I can forward this now."
09/06/2015 09:28:54PM Agent (Vann): "I will be able to email you within
24-248hrs once I get a reply from the product expert."
09/06/2015 09:29:09PM Ewald Bohm: "Later, in that same page, it says
what I'm trying to tell you, which is that "n" can be either 5GHz or
2.4GHz or both."
09/06/2015 09:29:14PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyond on my basic
technical knowledge, Ewald."
09/06/2015 09:29:23PM Ewald Bohm: "OK ... gimme a sec... to simplify..."
09/06/2015 09:30:12PM Agent (Vann): "Sure."
09/06/2015 09:32:36PM Agent (Vann): "Please do as this already rambling
in my head."
09/06/2015 09:33:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I would like to know if the three
available WiFi cards for the HP 15z laptop (http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/
Laptops/hp-pavilion-15z-laptop-m7d88av-1#!&TabName=specs) are 2.4GHz,
5GHz, or both.
I realize that the "n" 802.11 spec can be either only 2.4GHz o"
&nbsp r 5GHz or both (just not at the same time); and I am aware that
the 802.11 "ac" spec also allows for either only 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both
(possibly at the same time); so the fact that it's "ac" or "n" tells me
NOTHING about the frequency band!
In addition,
&nbsp I realize that 1x1 means one dedicated transmit antenna per
channel and 1 dedicated receive antenna per channel, just as 2x2 means 2
dedicated transmit antennas per data channel and 2 dedicated receive
antennas per data channel, which again, tells me NOTH
&nbsp ING about the frequency band!
09/06/2015 09:34:06PM Agent (Vann): "I will take note of this and what
you exactly write here will be forwarded to the product expert."
09/06/2015 09:34:31PM Agent (Vann): "I am very sorry if I failed to
answer by myself."
09/06/2015 09:34:57PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyong my power
and knowledge. I really to get an answer for you immediately but this mix
up in my head."
09/06/2015 09:35:06PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for the typo error."
09/06/2015 09:36:01PM Ewald Bohm: "OK. Thank you Vann,
I was hoping to purchase the laptop, on the web, tonight, but I will
await the response from your technical expert.
I don't consider this a difficult question because EVERYONE would want to
know what frequency the WiFi card operates in"
&nbsp - and - you can't tell from the fact that it's "n" or "ac" or 1x1
or 2x2, etc.
I have never seen any WiFi card advertised that didn't tell the user the
FREQUENCY (so I am happy that you forwarded information to the web-
marketing team to let them know the
&nbsp ir web pages are missing critical information).
09/06/2015 09:36:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, this is not a common
questions from most of our customers and you are the only person ask
this. that is why I am so amazed how concern and smart you are."
09/06/2015 09:37:48PM Agent (Vann): "You can actually get an answer
immediately on this if you will just call now our Product Expert on this
number 866.221.4553. An HP expert will be able to assist you and answer
any remaining questions that you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00
AM -"
&nbsp 10:00 PM Mountain, Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM –
10PM MT.
09/06/2015 09:38:34PM Agent (Vann): "We also dont want to confirm any
answers to you if the information is not coming from the official HP
source."
09/06/2015 09:38:48PM Agent (Vann): "I only got the information
provided earlier from my research."
09/06/2015 09:39:15PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
Are you sure they are open now? It is 10:45pm mountain time on a Sunday
(and tomorrow is Labor Day, which is a national holiday in the USA) so
I'm not even sure they will be OPEN tomorrow."
09/06/2015 09:39:29PM Agent (Vann): "I shall email you with the answer
to this address ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca."
09/06/2015 09:40:11PM Agent (Vann): "Probably they are now close and I
am checking earlier with the upper management what services or
departments will be open tomorrow."
09/06/2015 09:40:20PM Agent (Vann): "Anyway, please wait for my email
within 24-48hrs."
09/06/2015 09:42:03PM Ewald Bohm: "OK., Thanks Vann for your help. I
just want the information so that I don't make a mistake when ordering
the laptop on the web. I will await your email."
09/06/2015 09:42:16PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I completely understand."
09/06/2015 09:42:26PM Agent (Vann): "I know that you want to make
things certain in your purchase."
09/06/2015 09:42:41PM Agent (Vann): "Since you don't need any further
assistance, would it be okay if I close this chat?"
09/06/2015 09:43:17PM Ewald Bohm: "Yes. Thanks for your help. I will
await your email. If they are open tomorrow (they probably are not) then
I will also try to call them."
09/06/2015 09:43:46PM Agent (Vann): "You are welcome. I am sorry we end
this chat now without adequate resolution of your concerns."
09/06/2015 09:43:52PM Ewald Bohm: "I realize it's 10:15 am in India,
so, I hope you have a good rest of your day!"
09/06/2015 09:43:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Ciao,"
09/06/2015 09:44:07PM Agent (Vann): "I will also make a further
research on this on my own to learn from it."
09/06/2015 09:44:14PM Agent (Vann): "You too."
09/06/2015 09:44:19PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks for your time today."
09/06/2015 09:44:25PM Agent (Vann): "It was really a good chat
experienced."
09/06/2015 09:44:28PM Agent (Vann): "We appreciate you contacting us
with your concerns. If you have additional questions regarding our
products, you can contact us at 1-888-222-0029 from 4am-11pm Pacific,
Monday- Sunday."
09/06/2015 09:44:32PM Agent (Vann): "Thank you for choosing HP. We
appreciate your business."
09/06/2015 09:44:34PM Session Ended
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Time Details
09/06/2015 08:15:30PM System: "Welcome to hp.com sales serving the
United States. Your chat transcript will be emailed to the email address
that you input when registered shortly after the chat is completed."
09/06/2015 08:15:32PM System: "If you are looking for HP product
support, service, parts or non-US help, please visit: http://www8.hp.com/
us/en/contact-hp/contact.html"
09/06/2015 08:15:34PM System: "If you still need US sales or ordering
assistance, please stay in queue. Our chat sales representative will be
with you shortly."
09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Session Started with Agent (Paige M)
09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Ewald Bohm: "Does the HP 15z laptop come with
dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz? http://www.costco.com/HP-15z-
Laptop-|-AMD-E1-|-Windows-10.product.100222779.html"
09/06/2015 08:16:14PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for contacting the
hp.com Sales Center and welcome to our Labor Day Sale. My name is Paige.
I've read your question and am ready to assist you."
09/06/2015 08:16:59PM Agent (Paige M): "I can see you need to know if
the HP 15z laptop come with dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz. I'd be
glad to check on this for you."
09/06/2015 08:17:00PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige M."
09/06/2015 08:17:45PM Ewald Bohm: "I just want to know if the HP 15z
laptop has a WiFi card that is dual band (i.e., it has both 2.4Ghz and
5GHz) or not. The idiotic specification sheet on the HP web site doesn't
say!"
09/06/2015 08:18:04PM Ewald Bohm: "This is the spec sheet:"
09/06/2015 08:18:05PM Ewald Bohm: "http://store.hp.com/us/en/
ConfigureView?
storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&catEntryId=998656&quantity=1&color=Natural
+silver"
09/06/2015 08:18:42PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for the link, let me
go and check it."
09/06/2015 08:20:08PM Ewald Bohm: "That spec sheet lists three options
for WiFi cards, but not one mentions the band!

802.11b/g/n WLAN [1x1] Included in price
802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$10.00
Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$30.00"
09/06/2015 08:21:45PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for your patience."
09/06/2015 08:23:06PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
Also, is there tax and shipping to NJ?"
09/06/2015 08:23:59PM Agent (Paige M): "The 802.11b/g/n WLAN and
Bluetooth(R) [1x1] is 5GHz. The Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R)
[1x1] is at 433 Mbps stream at 3GHz."
09/06/2015 08:24:38PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive there is tax in the
unit but not in the shipping."
09/06/2015 08:25:37PM Agent (Paige M): "I am not entirely sure though,
it is best to contact our Product Expert to have more details about your
concern."
09/06/2015 08:25:49PM Agent (Paige M): "I’ve checked all of my
resources and I'm still unable to validate this."
09/06/2015 08:25:54PM Agent (Paige M): "Please call 866.221.4553? An HP
expert will be able to assist you and answer any remaining questions that
you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00 AM - 10:00 PM Mountain,
Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM – 10PM MT."
09/06/2015 08:26:21PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
I have never seen in my life a WiFi card that was 5GHz and not ALSO 2.4
GHz; but I have seen many 2.4GHz WiFi cards that were not 5GHz. I have
NEVER seen in my life (I don't believe it exists) a 3GHz WiFi card. Are
you sure about those specs? Th"
&nbsp ey make no sense, to me, and I know this stuff pretty well.
09/06/2015 08:27:27PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige,
Are the HP telephone support folks open tomorrow? (Labor Day)"
09/06/2015 08:28:40PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive they are open but you
can try calling."
09/06/2015 08:29:16PM Agent (Paige M): "We did not get any instructions
if they are closed or not. But it is better to try to call still."
09/06/2015 08:29:31PM Agent (Paige M): "Is there anything else I can
assist you with today?"
09/06/2015 08:30:29PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige
This was not satisfactory. May I talk to a supervisor? The question is
SIMPLE. It's actually EXTREMELY SIMPLE. It's not a difficult question.
The answer you gave makes absolutely no sense. Is there someone else I
can speak with? This is not a dif"
&nbsp ficult question.
09/06/2015 08:32:30PM Ewald Bohm: "Are you there?"
09/06/2015 08:33:15PM Ewald Bohm: "?"
09/06/2015 08:33:31PM Agent (Vann): "Hi!"
09/06/2015 08:35:14PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
Thank you for trying to help me.
I am asking a simple question.
Do you need me to repeat the question?"
09/06/2015 08:36:41PM Ewald Bohm: "Is anyone there?"
09/06/2015 08:36:47PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am here."
09/06/2015 08:36:53PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the long wait."
09/06/2015 08:37:02PM Agent (Vann): "I was reading your chat session
with Paige."
09/06/2015 08:40:18PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
OK. I'll wait while you review the session so that I won't need to repeat
anything.
Basically, I can't believe it's this difficult to just ascertain whether
the laptop has a WiFi card that handles both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz
bands.
Also, since"
&nbsp that simple question wasn't answered, it's hard to know if the
answer I got regarding the shipping being free but that there was tax, is
correct, or not.
Neither of these questions is difficult for someone who handles basic
(and these are EXTREMELY BASIC
&nbsp questions) computer questions.
09/06/2015 08:41:03PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I see that you have
questions, Ewald."
09/06/2015 08:41:05PM Ewald Bohm: "If the spec sheet simply gave the
information that it should give, I wouldn't even NEED to ask these
questions."
09/06/2015 08:41:47PM Ewald Bohm: "I know the broken record; and I know
that you're taught to "reflect" the customer's question - but let's just
get the answer please (I was a customer support manager for two decades)."
09/06/2015 08:41:54PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I understand that our website
product information is very limited."
09/06/2015 08:43:31PM Agent (Vann): "The shipping charge is zero and
that is for free."
09/06/2015 08:44:03PM Agent (Vann): "Sales tax will apply to the
product price itself and its computation is based on the shipping zip
code and state."
09/06/2015 08:45:12PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
Thank you for confirming that the sales tax is based on where the item
will be shipped and that the shipping is free.
Now all we need to know is whether the three WiFi card options available
for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both."
09/06/2015 08:45:30PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am actually checking on
that."
09/06/2015 08:46:04PM Agent (Vann): "Honestly, our tools and resources
are very limited to answer your question."
09/06/2015 08:46:16PM Agent (Vann): "I totally understand why the agent
referred you to our product expert."
09/06/2015 08:46:25PM Agent (Vann): "However, let own this question and
I will this to you."
09/06/2015 08:46:28PM Agent (Vann): "*answer."
09/06/2015 08:46:35PM Agent (Vann): "Now, can you give me 1-2 minutes
of your time."
09/06/2015 08:46:41PM Agent (Vann): "I am checking on something here."
09/06/2015 08:47:43PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald,"
09/06/2015 08:47:46PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for that."
09/06/2015 08:48:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I am here - and will wait."
09/06/2015 08:49:00PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I can tell this by the
decription of the WLAN card. Everytime you see a wlan card listed as b/g/
n, it is a single band (2.4 GHz) card."
09/06/2015 08:49:58PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann"
09/06/2015 08:50:03PM Agent (Vann): "I found more information here."
09/06/2015 08:52:01PM Ewald Bohm: "oooPS.
Hi VAnn,
I believe you can have 5GHz on "n"but not on "g" but I can check that
out. Certainly "ac" would benefit from 5GHz, but are you saying that only
the "ac" card is 5GHz?"
09/06/2015 08:52:54PM Agent (Vann): "I am verifying that."
09/06/2015 08:53:17PM Agent (Vann): "I cannot confirm it yet and this
is based on something that I am not sure of."
09/06/2015 08:54:33PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
Look at this web site (http://pocketnow.com/2014/01/23/5ghz-wifi).
Notice that "b" and "g" are ONLY 2.4GHz - but - notice that either "n" or
"ac" is also 5GHz."
09/06/2015 08:57:20PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks!"
09/06/2015 08:57:32PM Agent (Vann): "Let me check that."
09/06/2015 08:59:32PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
So, we still don't have the answer, since clearly both "n" and "ac" can
do 2.4GHz and 5GHz - the only difference is that "n" can do either one at
a time while "ac" does both at the same time - but that's not my question.
My question is whether th"
&nbsp e "n" and "ac" cards from HP for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz
or both.
Thanks for "owning" this issue to the conclusion - since - it's actually
an easy question - for someone who has the spec to answer.
In fact, I fault HP for not putting that answer on
&nbsp the web site since it's a CRITICAL question to ask!
09/06/2015 09:00:18PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I see where you are coming
from."
09/06/2015 09:00:53PM Agent (Vann): "I even sent a quick email to the
marketing department and web content team to put a brief pertinent
description of each wi-fi options."
09/06/2015 09:04:48PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
As I had said, I was a customer-support manager for twenty years and I
found only about 10% of the support team would take the time to solve
long-term problems such as missing information in a web page; therefore,
I do appreciate that you are in"
&nbsp the top 10% for "owning" the problem, and I appreciate that.
I'm still not sure though, whether the specific cards available for this
laptop have "both" 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands, since we have ascertained that
"n" can be either (just not at the same time), w
&nbsp hile "ac" also can be either (but if it has both, it can do both
at the same time).
So, the FREQUENCY BAND is a critical piece of data that a person needs to
figure out if their laptop will connect to the "n" or "ac" 2.4GHz or 5GHz
bands.
09/06/2015 09:04:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, as far as what I understood
in my readings here. You need a dual band that can support both 2.5 and 5
Ghz."
09/06/2015 09:05:26PM Agent (Vann): "This is what you need WLAN 802.11
ac 2x2 ."
09/06/2015 09:05:35PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
Yes. I will ONLY BUY a dual-band card. I am just trying to figure out
which card(s) that fit that laptop are dual band."
09/06/2015 09:05:50PM Ewald Bohm: "Note: It's 2.4GHz and not 2.5GHz."
09/06/2015 09:06:10PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the typo error."
09/06/2015 09:06:18PM Agent (Vann): "So you are saying that your router
has a dual band?"
09/06/2015 09:08:41PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
I know MANY (most) "ac" cards will be dual band. But, remember, an "ac"
card can also be one or the other. So, I am just trying to CONFIRM
whether the "n" and "ac" cards you offer actually make use of both bands.
(I know that the "n" can make use"
&nbsp of either band, and so can the "ac", with the only difference not
mattering to this question that "ac" can do it simultaneously).
But, "ac" can't do it simultaneously if it doesn't have both bands, and
"n" cards can be of three types (1) only 2.4, (2) o
&nbsp nly 5Ghz, or (3) both 2.4GHz and 5GHz.
As for my router, it is dual band (both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz) and it is an
AC1750.
09/06/2015 09:14:10PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann
The 802.11n spec allows up to 4 transmit and four receive antennas
(802.11n supports up to 4x4), so, again, just knowing it's 2x2 or 4x4
does not tell me what the bands are."
09/06/2015 09:17:33PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I am sorry if I kept you
waiting."
09/06/2015 09:17:40PM Ewald Bohm: "I'm here ..."
09/06/2015 09:18:06PM Agent (Vann): "This is overly complicated and it
would be better you consult our product expert."
09/06/2015 09:18:23PM Agent (Vann): "As far as I know that if it has a
1x1 that is a single band which can support up to 2.4ghz/"
09/06/2015 09:19:36PM Ewald Bohm: "The 1x1 means one (dedicated)
transmit antenna and 1 (dedicated) receive antenna; the antenna itself
can be any frequency (either 2.4GHz or 5GHz) but almost all the time, it
is 2.4GHz (I agree) but it does not have to be since the 1x1 is
indicating the de"
&nbsp dicated "channels" and NOT the frequency band!
09/06/2015 09:20:46PM Agent (Vann): "It looks you've done more research
on this and you get a lot of understanding how these things work."
09/06/2015 09:21:36PM Agent (Vann): "Can you check this link http://
www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/next-gen-80211ac-
wifi-for-dummies.pdf"
09/06/2015 09:21:58PM Ewald Bohm: "I know that the 2x2 has two
dedicated "channels" (i.e., antennae), 2 for transmit and 2 for receive.
But, again, that does not indicate the FREQUENCY. It "could" mean that
they are using 2 frequencies - but - it could also mean that they're NOT
using 2 d"
&nbsp ifferent frequencies.
09/06/2015 09:22:07PM Ewald Bohm: "checking the link ..."
09/06/2015 09:22:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Looking for the specific page ..."
09/06/2015 09:24:08PM Agent (Vann): "I also read from the HP Forums."
09/06/2015 09:24:09PM Agent (Vann): "http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/
Wireless-Internet-Home-Networking/WiFi-Connections-HP-laptop-unable-to-
find-5Ghz-wireless/td-p/3300523"
09/06/2015 09:24:31PM Agent (Vann): "A dual band card would be listed
as either a/b/g/n or a/g/n."
09/06/2015 09:25:00PM Ewald Bohm: "VAnn, you'll notice that, on page 10
of the wifi for dummies, it confirms what I said, which is (verbatim):
"In the vernacular of the new multispeed Wi-Fi stan
-
dards, the number of send and receive antennas and
stream configurations are noted as 1x1 (o"
&nbsp ne antenna
supporting one data stream), 2x2 (two antennas sup
-
porting two data streams), and 3x3. Table 2-2 compares
the performance of antenna and stream configurations
in the 802.11n and 802.11ac standards"
09/06/2015 09:25:31PM Ewald Bohm: "So, the 2x2 just means the number of
antennas. It tells us NOTHING about the frequency."
09/06/2015 09:26:15PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I will have to refer this
to our product expert and I shall email you the answer."
09/06/2015 09:26:38PM Agent (Vann): "This would consume so much of our
time and this is something that I cannot confirm."
09/06/2015 09:26:44PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi VAnn,
An "n" card can be dual band - but an "n" card can also be single band.
That is why the SPECIFICATION is so important. We'd never have to ASK the
question if the spec simply said what it should say!"
09/06/2015 09:26:48PM Agent (Vann): "I admired how you are really want
to get the answer of this."
09/06/2015 09:28:23PM Agent (Vann): "I will email the product expert
with your questions."
09/06/2015 09:28:24PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann,
If the specifications were written correctly, we'd never have to ask. In
the book you kindly referenced, you'll see this exact quote on the first
line of page 11:
"Wi-Fi works over two spectrum bands: 2.4 GHz and
5 GHz. Older 802.11bgn uses the"
&nbsp 2.4 GHz frequency"
09/06/2015 09:28:35PM Agent (Vann): "Can you summarize your questions
now so I can forward this now."
09/06/2015 09:28:54PM Agent (Vann): "I will be able to email you within
24-248hrs once I get a reply from the product expert."
09/06/2015 09:29:09PM Ewald Bohm: "Later, in that same page, it says
what I'm trying to tell you, which is that "n" can be either 5GHz or
2.4GHz or both."
09/06/2015 09:29:14PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyond on my basic
technical knowledge, Ewald."
09/06/2015 09:29:23PM Ewald Bohm: "OK ... gimme a sec... to simplify..."
09/06/2015 09:30:12PM Agent (Vann): "Sure."
09/06/2015 09:32:36PM Agent (Vann): "Please do as this already rambling
in my head."
09/06/2015 09:33:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I would like to know if the three
available WiFi cards for the HP 15z laptop (http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/
Laptops/hp-pavilion-15z-laptop-m7d88av-1#!&TabName=specs) are 2.4GHz,
5GHz, or both.
I realize that the "n" 802.11 spec can be either only 2.4GHz o"
&nbsp r 5GHz or both (just not at the same time); and I am aware that
the 802.11 "ac" spec also allows for either only 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both
(possibly at the same time); so the fact that it's "ac" or "n" tells me
NOTHING about the frequency band!
In addition,
&nbsp I realize that 1x1 means one dedicated transmit antenna per
channel and 1 dedicated receive antenna per channel, just as 2x2 means 2
dedicated transmit antennas per data channel and 2 dedicated receive
antennas per data channel, which again, tells me NOTH
&nbsp ING about the frequency band!
09/06/2015 09:34:06PM Agent (Vann): "I will take note of this and what
you exactly write here will be forwarded to the product expert."
09/06/2015 09:34:31PM Agent (Vann): "I am very sorry if I failed to
answer by myself."
09/06/2015 09:34:57PM Agent (Vann): "This is already beyong my power
and knowledge. I really to get an answer for you immediately but this mix
up in my head."
09/06/2015 09:35:06PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for the typo error."
09/06/2015 09:36:01PM Ewald Bohm: "OK. Thank you Vann,
I was hoping to purchase the laptop, on the web, tonight, but I will
await the response from your technical expert.
I don't consider this a difficult question because EVERYONE would want to
know what frequency the WiFi card operates in"
&nbsp - and - you can't tell from the fact that it's "n" or "ac" or 1x1
or 2x2, etc.
I have never seen any WiFi card advertised that didn't tell the user the
FREQUENCY (so I am happy that you forwarded information to the web-
marketing team to let them know the
&nbsp ir web pages are missing critical information).
09/06/2015 09:36:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, this is not a common
questions from most of our customers and you are the only person ask
this. that is why I am so amazed how concern and smart you are."
09/06/2015 09:37:48PM Agent (Vann): "You can actually get an answer
immediately on this if you will just call now our Product Expert on this
number 866.221.4553. An HP expert will be able to assist you and answer
any remaining questions that you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00
AM -"
&nbsp 10:00 PM Mountain, Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM –
10PM MT.
09/06/2015 09:38:34PM Agent (Vann): "We also dont want to confirm any
answers to you if the information is not coming from the official HP
source."
09/06/2015 09:38:48PM Agent (Vann): "I only got the information
provided earlier from my research."
09/06/2015 09:39:15PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann,
Are you sure they are open now? It is 10:45pm mountain time on a Sunday
(and tomorrow is Labor Day, which is a national holiday in the USA) so
I'm not even sure they will be OPEN tomorrow."
09/06/2015 09:39:29PM Agent (Vann): "I shall email you with the answer
to this address ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca."
09/06/2015 09:40:11PM Agent (Vann): "Probably they are now close and I
am checking earlier with the upper management what services or
departments will be open tomorrow."
09/06/2015 09:40:20PM Agent (Vann): "Anyway, please wait for my email
within 24-48hrs."
09/06/2015 09:42:03PM Ewald Bohm: "OK., Thanks Vann for your help. I
just want the information so that I don't make a mistake when ordering
the laptop on the web. I will await your email."
09/06/2015 09:42:16PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I completely understand."
09/06/2015 09:42:26PM Agent (Vann): "I know that you want to make
things certain in your purchase."
09/06/2015 09:42:41PM Agent (Vann): "Since you don't need any further
assistance, would it be okay if I close this chat?"
09/06/2015 09:43:17PM Ewald Bohm: "Yes. Thanks for your help. I will
await your email. If they are open tomorrow (they probably are not) then
I will also try to call them."
09/06/2015 09:43:46PM Agent (Vann): "You are welcome. I am sorry we end
this chat now without adequate resolution of your concerns."
09/06/2015 09:43:52PM Ewald Bohm: "I realize it's 10:15 am in India,
so, I hope you have a good rest of your day!"
09/06/2015 09:43:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Ciao,"
09/06/2015 09:44:07PM Agent (Vann): "I will also make a further
research on this on my own to learn from it."
09/06/2015 09:44:14PM Agent (Vann): "You too."
09/06/2015 09:44:19PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks for your time today."
09/06/2015 09:44:25PM Agent (Vann): "It was really a good chat
experienced."
09/06/2015 09:44:28PM Agent (Vann): "We appreciate you contacting us
with your concerns. If you have additional questions regarding our
products, you can contact us at 1-888-222-0029 from 4am-11pm Pacific,
Monday- Sunday."
09/06/2015 09:44:32PM Agent (Vann): "Thank you for choosing HP. We
appreciate your business."
09/06/2015 09:44:34PM Session Ended
If you require further assistance, you may contact us at myhpsales@hp.comm

 

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:06:16 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

OpenOffice and it is free.
Don't have to use word or excel.

You have to realize what you're saying, & that your suggestion can't work.

If you were suggesting to "me" to use openoffice or staroffice or
libreoffice or framemaker or numbers-pages-keynote or polaris office or
kingston office or wps office or any number of freeware office look-alike
apps, then your suggestion might actually make a lot of sense.

But, you can't take the average extremely non-technical grade-school
teacher, and seriously suggest they use a free office-like equivalent,
when they have enough trouble just getting used to the ribbon changing
from one Microsoft office version to another.

They complain when they have to open an office 2013 doc in office 2007,
and they fail at that, half the time, without help.

They can't even print something as simples as a protected PDF without my
help.

So, if you're suggesting that free office-look-alikes are "equivalent" to
office for such a person, then you fundamentally don't understand people.

It's just not gonna happen.

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:42:31 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

> Have it your way, you gonna buy the thing or not?

You missed the point.

I'm trying to *recommend* a laptop for a teacher who is not technical.
I started at Costco, but the Costco laptop wasn't dual band.
I went to the HP site and can't figure out if it's dual band.

If it's dual band, I'll recommend the teacher buys it.
If not, I will choose another laptop.

I don't actually care what laptop she gets.
I'm just trying to help her.

The laptop has to be about the right size & shape.
It has to be within her price range (around $500 out the door).
It has to have MS Office on it.
It has to be Windows.

Everything else, she's leaving up to me.
One thing I'm requiring is dual band 2.4GHz & 5GHz simultaneously
(with backward compatibility).

All I'm trying to find out is if this HP 15z laptop is dual band.
It's amazingly difficult to find this out.

I'm online right now with a supposedly-special HP customer support sales
hotline (888-999-4747), and they STILL don't know the answer.

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:17:44 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Nope. It should be:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz
only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed 802.11
ac ==> 5GHz only

Thank you Jeff for clarifying this spec:
http://i.imgur.com/hBcFWkQ.jpg

After a half hour on three separate HP calls, I learned something (I
think) that nobody told me yet...
1. HP Tech Support 888-222-0029
2. Advanced HP Tech Support 866-221-4553
3. HP Shopping Team 888-999-4747

HP: They first told me the ac card was just ac.
ME: I told them that this was unlikely, so I asked them to doublecheck.

HP: After a long wait, they told me the "ac" card was backwards
compatible, but it was only 5GHz.
ME: I told them that was impossible.

HP: Then, after another long wait, they told me it was NOT dual band, but
that it had both bands.
ME: I told them that this confused me, and I asked them to clarify.

HP: Finally, they came back and said that the "ac" card was backwards
compatible, so that it had two frequencies, but they don't operate at the
same time, so it's not dual band.
ME: I said thank you but I would like to ask you, Jeff, to clarify.

Does that HP answer make sense?
The "ac" card is backwards compatible, so, it has both frequencies, but
it doesn't do both frequencies at the same time?

What does that really mean?

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:17:44 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Nope. It should be:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only 802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only 802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz
only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed 802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

This should be correct, by now, where I appreciate Jeff's patience:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz (or both?)
802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

Jeff: Notice the question mark in the "n" spec.
Is "n" always just *either* frequency (i.e., one or the other).
Or can "n" be either one or the other or *both* frequencies?

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:46:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Office 2007 will run on Win 10:
Grab Belarc Advisor

Jeff.
You are correct.
But you were thinking differently than I was.

You were thinking of bringing the (winxp desktop) 2007 license upward to
the new (win10 laptop), and I discounted that out of hand.

This is a hand-me-down desktop that someone else didn't want, so they
gave it to this teacher, many years ago. It came with zero discs!

But that wouldn't stop you or me.

If it were you or me, we'd use Belarc to find the original office product
key (or serial number, I forget which) and we'd then find the Office 2007
download ISO hidden deeply on the Microsoft web site - and we'd download
that Microsoft-provided ISO, perhaps burn it to optical disc for re-use,
and we'd simply install Office 2007 on the new laptop from that ISO, and
we'd bring over the old key that we unearthed using Belarc Advisor.

In the end, you or I would have Office 2007 running on their one (winXP)
desktop and their one new (win10) laptop, which is within the license
constraints (I believe).

But that ain't gonna happen with these people.
They are not technical.
They can't handle the complexity.

Plus, it's time they moved into the new century, so, if they stick with
Office 2007 (which they continue to call "Word 2007", not realizing there
are multiple office apps), they will eventually have problems reading
Office 2013 documents.

So, it's time they got a new Microsoft Office suite.

Since they will *keep* the WinXP desktop with Office 2007 on it, all
we're looking at is a *single* license of Office 2013 (which they
continue to call "Word 2013", which means they're not using Outlook).

So, the price comparison is the following:
1. Pay $100 per year for Office 365 for the rest of their lives, or,
2. Pay $140 once, for Office 2013 H&S for the one laptop.

To me, unless I missed a step, it's a no brainer.

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 04:50:53 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

No. But if you google "Intel 802.11 ac wifi Bluetooth" you'll see it
says the Intel product supports dual band.

See my post of a few seconds ago where I reported the results of three
sets of phone calls to HP today.

I have asked Jeff to clarify what they told me, but here's the scoop.

In the end, they said, that the "ac" card was backwards compatible, so,
that meant that the ac card contained *both* frequencies, but the caveat
was that the "ac" card was *not* dual band.

When I asked them to clarify, they said it doesn't work on both
frequencies at the same time.

What does that really mean?
Is having two bands dual band, or not?

 

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:45:19 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

Since this thread is really about INTERPRETING specs, is this
interpretation correct?

1. Intel 7265 BGN + Bluetooth Version 4.0
Would it be safe to assume this has *only* 2.4GHz?

2. Intel 7265 AC/B/G/N Dual Band Wireless + Bluetooth Version 4.0
Is it safe to assume this has *both* 2.4GHz & 5GHz?

No, because they are obviously the same Intel card, the same part #
and Intel isn't dumb enough to have a wifi AC card that can't also
connect to older networks. That card is dual band, period.

After my conversation with HP today, I found out that their "ac" card has
both 2.4GHz and 5GHz because it is backward compatible, but they said
that backwards-compatible-ac-card is *not* a "dual band" card.

Apparently they defined "dual band" in a specific way, that excludes the
fact that it has "two" bands.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 08:54:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:32:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Are you sure? Office 365 can be installed on 5 machines. If the skool
has 5 machines of any type, which makes the price for each machine about
$20/year.
Meanwhile, Home and Student is $140 and should last about 5 to 7 years
before it become too old to use. At an optimistic 7 years, that's the
same $20/year per machine as Office 365.

I'm sure, but only because of arithmetic.

If you don't believe the numbers, then what do you believe?

She's a teacher. Not a school.
She only has an ancient WinXP desktop that has Office 2007 on it.
When she gets a new laptop, she needs a new Office anyway.

Nope. Office 2007 will run on Win 10:
<http://www.microsoft.com/en-in/windows/compatibility/CompatCenter/ProductViewerWithDefaultFilters?TempOsid=Windows%2010&Locale=en-in&Architecture=X64&TextSearch=microsoft%2Boffice%2B2007%2Bstandard&Type=Both&CurrentPage=0&TotalPages=1&ShowCriteria=0&SortCriteria=Relevance&Compatibility=Unknown&LastRequested=14>
Grab Belarc Advisor, run it on the XP machine, and PRINT the results.
Somewhere in there, it will have the various serial numbers needed for
the installation. If the ancient XP machine crashes without a backup
or a list of serial numbers, she will not be able to reinstall Office
2007 on a new machine:
<http://www.belarc.com/free_download.html>

1. Renting Office 365 for a laptop costs $100/year and can be put on 4
more non WinXP machines that don't actually exist. After 7 years, renting
cost her $700 for Office for that one laptop, which is more than the
laptop costs.

2. Buying Office 2013 costs her $140, and can be put on one desktop and
one laptop. Since the desktop is WinXP, the additional license is moot,
so, it costs her $140 for 7 years (or 10% less with the teacher discount).

It's a no brainer, to me; but this isn't the question in the OP, so it's
just an offshoot discussion which isn't at all confusing to me.

Right. With only one machine, Office 365 doesn't make economic sense.
I was thinking of a skool, not an individual user. I still think the
various alternatives (Google Office, LibreOffice, etc) are worth
investigating.

Good luck.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 08:40:06 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

".
So, what does that tell us?

Are we saying the "ac" is both 2.4GHz & 5GHz by virtue of the "a" in "ac"?

It tells me that HP marketing is clueless. The assumption is that
anything that does "ac" will also do the lesser protocol of "a". Since
"ac" only works on 5GHz, and nobody today makes a 5GHz only radio,
it's a fair assumption that anything with "ac" will be dual band.
However, that's an assumption. I tried to find the Intel card used in
the 15z and failed. You'll probably have to ask HP pre-sales, this I
predict will be clueless. You might try the HP support forums.
<http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Laptop-and-Notebook-Computers/ct-p/Notebook>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:35:02 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

>From what Jeff said, all I can tell is (is this correct?):

Nope. It should be:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed
802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

Basically, if it has an "a" in the description, then it's 5GHz.
Otherwise, it's 2.4GHz.

Yes, but the "a" and "ac" are a concidence. The IEEE 802.11
committee(s) ran out of letters when they hit "z", so the started
using two letter suffixes as in "as", "ab", "ac", etc. There fact
that "a" and "ac" are both "5GHz only" is purely coincidental and
should not be relied upon to determine if something operates on 5GHz.

As I mentioned before, if it does "ac", it should be able to do "a".
Nobody makes a 5GHz only radio these days, so if it does 5GHz in any
form, it should also be able to do 2.4GHz. However, these are logical
deduction and assumptions which should not be relied upon. To be
sure, you need to pry the Intel product number out of HP and lookup
the specs on the Intel web site, which should have a better
description of the products capabilities.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:57:18 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

This is a hand-me-down desktop that someone else didn't want, so they
gave it to this teacher, many years ago. It came with zero discs!

Finding Office 2007 replacement CD's is trivial.
Hint: BitTorrent.

If it were you or me, we'd use Belarc to find the original office product
key (or serial number, I forget which) and we'd then find the Office 2007
download ISO hidden deeply on the Microsoft web site - and we'd download
that Microsoft-provided ISO, perhaps burn it to optical disc for re-use,
and we'd simply install Office 2007 on the new laptop from that ISO, and
we'd bring over the old key that we unearthed using Belarc Advisor.

If it were purchased online from the Microsoft site, and you have the
magic serial number, you can download a replacement ISO image.
<http://www.microsoft.com/office/downloads/>
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/302822>

In the end, you or I would have Office 2007 running on their one (winXP)
desktop and their one new (win10) laptop, which is within the license
constraints (I believe).

Yep. I vaguely recall that Office 2007 works on 2 machines. Not
sure.

But that ain't gonna happen with these people.
They are not technical.
They can't handle the complexity.

I'm technical and I hate complexity. Teachers have students, which
just love to help with such things. Some of the teenage hackers are
quite knowledgeable and have impressive experience in the dark arts of
computing. Ask the students for help.

Plus, it's time they moved into the new century, so, if they stick with
Office 2007 (which they continue to call "Word 2007", not realizing there
are multiple office apps), they will eventually have problems reading
Office 2013 documents.

Maybe, but that hasn't been my experience. I can read most anything
produced by Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 with Office 2003 and the MS
Compatibility Pack:
<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3>
However, if there's a problem, I just ask the author to Save As: Word
97 format.

>So, it's time they got a new Microsoft Office suite.

The way you can tell when it's time to upgrade is when you can't get
the work done or that it's painful to use. I have no problems reading
or writing with Office 2003 and various file format converters. I
find Office 2007/2010 to be tedious, awkward, clumsy, and not much of
an improvement over Office 2003. In other words, a step backwards. If
your really think it's time for a change, I suggest they step into the
(disk) space age, and take the great leap forward to Cloud Computing
with a Chromebook and Google Office.

Since they will *keep* the WinXP desktop with Office 2007 on it, all
we're looking at is a *single* license of Office 2013 (which they
continue to call "Word 2013", which means they're not using Outlook).

Outlooks is dead anyway because Windoze 10 includes mail and calendar
apps.

So, the price comparison is the following:
1. Pay $100 per year for Office 365 for the rest of their lives, or,
2. Pay $140 once, for Office 2013 H&S for the one laptop.

3. Pay nothing and use Google Office, LibreOffice, or similar free
alternatives.

>To me, unless I missed a step, it's a no brainer.

Well, you're right about not using your brain. What I find odd is
that your primary reason to spend the money is the inability or
unwillingness of a teacher to learn something new. I've seen this
phenomenon with teachers in the past, where the monotonous repetition
of cramming facts into students heads eventually leads to intellectual
ossification. Even in computing, I guess perpetual reptition of the
same mistakes is considered a good reason not to change one's habits.
Personally, I find the logic disgusting, but I promised to improve my
diplomacy and won't push the point any further.

Here's what I suggest:
1. Have the teacher beg, borrow, buy, or steal a Chromebook. I have
several Acer products and find them quite good and cheap.
<http://stores.ebay.com/Acer/Chromebooks-/_i.html?_fsub=7070078010>
The various C720 models are what I use and like (also to run Linux).
Figure about $120 to $175 refurbished.
2. Have one or more of the teachers students setup the Chromebook so
that it's ready to use. The learning curve is not very steep or long,
but since that seems to be an issue here, faster is better.
3. Have the teacher learn to user various Cloud Computing services,
such as Google Cloud, MS Skydrive/OneDrive, etc. Also have the
teacher learn to run apps inside the browser. If MS Word is required,
then MS has the real thing available:
<https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/word-online/fiombgjlkfpdpkbhfioofeeinbehmajg>
4. If the teacher makes it this far, the rest should be obvious.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:40:39 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:17:44 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Nope. It should be:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz
only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed 802.11
ac ==> 5GHz only

Thank you Jeff for clarifying this spec:
http://i.imgur.com/hBcFWkQ.jpg

After a half hour on three separate HP calls, I learned something (I
think) that nobody told me yet...
1. HP Tech Support 888-222-0029
2. Advanced HP Tech Support 866-221-4553
3. HP Shopping Team 888-999-4747

HP: They first told me the ac card was just ac.
ME: I told them that this was unlikely, so I asked them to doublecheck.

HP: After a long wait, they told me the "ac" card was backwards
compatible, but it was only 5GHz.
ME: I told them that was impossible.

HP: Then, after another long wait, they told me it was NOT dual band, but
that it had both bands.
ME: I told them that this confused me, and I asked them to clarify.

HP: Finally, they came back and said that the "ac" card was backwards
compatible, so that it had two frequencies, but they don't operate at the
same time, so it's not dual band.
ME: I said thank you but I would like to ask you, Jeff, to clarify.

Please note that I did not suggest that you call support. I suggested
you call pre-sales support (shopping team or something similar) and
ask what model Intel wireless card is the "ac" device.

>Does that HP answer make sense?

Sorta, if I read between the lines.

The "ac" card is backwards compatible, so, it has both frequencies, but
it doesn't do both frequencies at the same time?

"ac" is always backwards compatible to "a". It has to be. Short
lecture follows:

If you force the wireless router (not the client radio in the laptop)
to do only "ac", then the maximum from router to laptop will be rather
short. Basically, at a fixed power level, you trade range for speed.
"ac" is all about speed, so the range decreases when it's used. If
the BER (bit error rate) increases above some pre-programmed level,
the router in "ac" mode will slow down, eventually going to the
slowest "ac" mode speed. To go slower than that, it would need to
revert to some "n" mode. Once the router slows down to the slowest
"n" mode, it will need to go to ordinary "a" mode. If it didn't go:
ac -> n -> a
the wireless connection would not work more than a few feet in "ac"
mode. Therefore, to obtain tolerable performance at reasonable
ranges, the wireless devices need to support all the modes down to
"a".

There is one exception. 802.11b is so disgustingly slow that the
802.11n spec (and others) demand that 802.11b be disabled if 802.11n
is active.

End of lecture section (for now). Quiz to follow.

Now, on to the "dual band" problem. The issue of "simultaneous dual
band" is more of a router problem than a client radio problem. The
usual idea is that you can have different devices use different bands
as required. To do this requires simultaneous dual band in the
router, but not in the laptop client radio. For example, I've setup
Roku wireless media player boxes to use 5GHz, while the laptops and
tablets are all on 2.4 Ghz. I've also done the reverse, when there's
so much screaming media traffic on 2.4Ghz that the only band that's
usable is 5GHz.
<http://www.netgear.com/landing/dual-band.aspx>
<http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/01/how-to-set-up-dual-band-wifi-and-juice-your-downloads/>
Simultaneous dual band is (in my opinion) a requirement for wireless
routers and access points. However, for laptops, tablets, and
wireless client radios, it's only useful for marketing types that want
to advertise higher speeds. There are protocols for bonding both the
2.4 and 5GHz channels between a laptop and a router in order to get
higher download speeds. You're not going to see that on a $350 laptop
and don't need it anyway. Therefore, the HP phone person was right
that it's one band at a time, not both simultaneously.

Incidentally, the Bluetooth device shares the same radio as the 2.4GHz
wi-fi section and are setup to alternate their operation so as to not
mutually interfere with each other.

>What does that really mean?

It means you've educated the HP phone support person. Somehow, I
don't think that was your intent.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 19:02:36 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 04:50:53 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

No. But if you google "Intel 802.11 ac wifi Bluetooth" you'll see it
says the Intel product supports dual band.

See my post of a few seconds ago where I reported the results of three
sets of phone calls to HP today.

I have asked Jeff to clarify what they told me, but here's the scoop.

In the end, they said, that the "ac" card was backwards compatible, so,
that meant that the ac card contained *both* frequencies, but the caveat
was that the "ac" card was *not* dual band.

When I asked them to clarify, they said it doesn't work on both
frequencies at the same time.

What does that really mean?
Is having two bands dual band, or not?

I just hate it when you ask consistently good questions. I feel
obligated to answer when I would rather roll over and die from
spending most of the Labor Day holiday running wires under a house.
I'm getting too old for this kind of work.

Operating on both frequencies at the same time is called "simultaneous
dual band". This is commonly found in wireless routers and wireless
access points, but not in wireless client radios, like the one in your
prospective HP laptop. The wireless router needs simultaneous dual
band because it might have two different users, connected at the same
time, each on a different band. Were the radio NOT simultaneous dual
band, the traffic bandwidth would be roughly cut in half because the
wireless router radio would need to switch back and forth between the
two users. However, with simultaneous dual band, it could service
both users at the same time without any loss of bandwidth.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Sam E]

On 09/08/2015 12:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:35:02 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

From what Jeff said, all I can tell is (is this correct?):

Nope. It should be:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed
802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

For completeness, there is the original 802.11 (with no suffix) that is
also on 2.4GHz. IIRC, maximum speed for that is 2Mbps.

[snip]


--
107 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

"Nobody has ever taken notable pains to locate the legendary heaven; but
probably that is because nobody ever thought seriously of going to a
heaven." [E. Haldeman-Julius, "The Meaning Of Atheism"]

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:38:25 -0500, Sam E
<why.should.this@be.email.invalid> wrote:

On 09/08/2015 12:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:35:02 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

From what Jeff said, all I can tell is (is this correct?):

Nope. It should be:
802.11 a ==> 5GHz only
802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only
802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed
802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only

For completeness, there is the original 802.11 (with no suffix) that is
also on 2.4GHz. IIRC, maximum speed for that is 2Mbps.

Yep, however those were incorporated into the 802.11b specification.
The two slowest speeds of 1 and 2 Mbit/sec became part of 802.11b when
5.5 and 11 Mbits/sec were added.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11#802.11-1997_.28802.11_legacy.29>
Besides DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum) there were also a few
FHSS (frequency hopping spread spectrum) promoted by Raytheon,
Breezecom (Alviron), and TI. However, you won't see these in modern
equipment, unless you include BlueGoof, which is FHSS.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558