Hoist brake solenoid buzzes/fluckers instead of steadily pul

[Ignoramus22978]

On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos <Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

i

 

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> fired this volley in
news:2-SdnfxviMFXnF3TnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@earthlink.com:

How is 230 * 1.414 a doubler? It is a simple rectifier & filter for
the input voltage. Of course you have the forward drop of the
rectifier, and it will be less than that if the filter is too small.

You are missing a basic point. 230VAC line voltage is measured RMS (root-
mean-square) it's peak is 230*sqrt(2). I said, "the voltage will never
rise above peak".

<G>
Lloyd

 

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Ignoramus22978 <ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> fired this volley in
news:TcednaUF1axtn13TnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@giganews.com:

Two.

Ig, there is a case where a diode might be used, but you'd see it, and a
switch to cut it in and out of circuit, if it were there.

The case is where a coil is wound "strong" for pull-in, then a diode is
placed in series to lower the coil's average current during the hold phase.

However, that would be obvious, and external to the coil.

LLoyd

 

[Tony Miklos]

On 11/13/2011 12:48 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos<Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

I've also worked on solenoids like that that have a switch and a
resistor for the "hold" circuit. Follow the wires. Same thing, if the
resistor or that circuit is open the solenoid will chatter open and closed.

This is assuming the solenoid does chatter, as if it's being turned on
and off rapidly, like a machine gun.

If it's just hanging up part way and buzzing then I'd agree with the
people who said to clean it up or replace it.

 

[Jamie]

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> fired this volley in
news:2-SdnfxviMFXnF3TnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@earthlink.com:


How is 230 * 1.414 a doubler? It is a simple rectifier & filter for
the input voltage. Of course you have the forward drop of the
rectifier, and it will be less than that if the filter is too small.



You are missing a basic point. 230VAC line voltage is measured RMS (root-
mean-square) it's peak is 230*sqrt(2). I said, "the voltage will never
rise above peak".

G
Lloyd

It's nice that you are attempting to help others, very admiral of you
how ever, this person you are replying to has been on my ignore list for
some time now and for good reason. You may also learn why if you haven't
already.

I also write software at times and posted a question about options
that may exist in the "NNTP" protocol, which is used here, to exclude
down loading from the server if I happen to have a exclusion of a user
in the
header of the post. It gets messy trying to ignore these characters even
though you have your own reader configured to do so, how ever, reading
others post ends up showing you users that you don't want any thing to
do with.

I just though it would save lots of bandwidth for others to use and
enjoy.

I guess it's just a weakness in the protocol.

Jamie

 

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> fired this
volley in news:WVTvq.35422$yY3.10823@newsfe01.iad:

I just though it would save lots of bandwidth for others to use and
enjoy.

Jamie, he was correct, except for forgetting that AC line voltage is the
root mean square of it's peak. A lot of people forget that.

I'm an old radio guy from the 60's, too. That was long before the advent
of switching power supplies. To get 5VDC at 1A off the mains used to
take a 1lb transformer, and about 40 cu.in. of rectifiers and filters --
and regulation sucked unless you really over-sized the transformer.

Now you can get that out of a 1/2-oz wall wart!

LLoyd

 

[Jamie]

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> fired this
volley in news:WVTvq.35422$yY3.10823@newsfe01.iad:


I just though it would save lots of bandwidth for others to use and
enjoy.


Jamie, he was correct, except for forgetting that AC line voltage is the
root mean square of it's peak. A lot of people forget that.

I'm an old radio guy from the 60's, too. That was long before the advent
of switching power supplies. To get 5VDC at 1A off the mains used to
take a 1lb transformer, and about 40 cu.in. of rectifiers and filters --
and regulation sucked unless you really over-sized the transformer.

Now you can get that out of a 1/2-oz wall wart!

LLoyd
The point is that he goes out of his way making an idiot of himself, he

can't even get my identity correct. I am not the only user with this name.

I deal with this crap at work all the time when the electricians walk
over to me with unexplained problems, some of which are hoist how ever,
we deal with much larger cranes than what is being talked about here.

We just recently had a 10 ton crane inspected after a repair done on
the motor brake which is much different than what is being talked about
here. That one uses a DC coil with a bridge rectifier and this bridge is
actually encased in the coil pack. This coil can operate from AC or DC
how ever, the way this one is being operated is it first gets energized
via 48V AC, then a time delay relay opens its contacts to operate a
single diode inline which allows for 50% duty to the coil for holding..
It is a Peak and hold motor brake and works very well. We had to
replace it not to long ago because the contacts in the control box got
welded and what happens is with a lot of constant use the coil heats up
the spline and starts to stick and thus does not always close
afterwards. You can picture what happens to the load when the operator
releases the buttons.

Personally I stay clear of MT. He is a force to be reckon with. Also I
never made any comment on his evaluation of the math or what ever he
spit out, I just don't bother reading his crap because it normally has
nothing to do with helping any one. I only see him from other users
posting replies.


Jamie

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jamie wrote:

The point is that he goes out of his way making an idiot of himself, he
can't even get my identity correct. I am not the only user with this name.

Maynard A Philbrook JR is the only one with the callsign KA1LPA.

http://call-signs.findthebest.com/l/63823/KA1LPA


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Ignoramus22978]

On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos <Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/13/2011 12:48 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos<Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

I've also worked on solenoids like that that have a switch and a
resistor for the "hold" circuit. Follow the wires. Same thing, if the
resistor or that circuit is open the solenoid will chatter open and closed.

This is assuming the solenoid does chatter, as if it's being turned on
and off rapidly, like a machine gun.

This is exactly what it does.

If it's just hanging up part way and buzzing then I'd agree with the
people who said to clean it up or replace it.

No, it chatters like a machine gun.

i

 

[Ignoramus22978]

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 11/13/2011 8:52 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

Ok, let's back up a bit. WHEN was the last time the hoist worked
like it should? When it was installed and operating on 480 v?

Or was it working at some point when re-wired for 240 v and THEN
started to act up with the brake solenoid?

Jeff

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

 

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:28:30 -0500, Tony Miklos
<Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/13/2011 9:00 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

It may have two windings on one coil. I deal with solenoids like that
all the time. The first strong winding pulls it in then opens a "end of
stroke" switch so it doesn't burn up. Then the second weaker winding is
just strong enough to hold it and can stay energized without burning up.
If the second weak winding is broke, you get a chattering action.

That would be a "Pick and Hold" solenoid. The "Pick" is the strong
winding with the switch, and the Hold would be the weak constant
winding.

And the Pick might not be able to pick without the Hold being
energized too, so it buzzes and doesn't open all the way. Or it's
bouncing on the end switch - hard to tell without looking.

Check the connections - If it's two separate windings, there might be
a loose lead.

--<< Bruce >>--

 

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:47:07 -0600, Ignoramus22978
<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

On 2011-11-13, BQ340 <bq340@Adelphia.net> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

There would be more than 2 terminals on it if it had multiple windings.

MikeB


OK, I kind of suspected that also (based on my past diesel generator
experiences).

Yup, it's just a standard box solenoid, probably Dormeyer they make
zillions of them - and all crapped up inside that end-bell. If it was
something fancy it would look it.

Take it apart and clean up all the sliding and metal surfaces, a
little dab of Lubriplate white grease on the moving pole pieces inside
the solenoid, and hit it with some clear-coat to stop the surface rust
on the metal parts - and stop leaving it outside in the rain.

You do NOT want to pull an "Honest Al Babin" and start painting all
over the insides. You want to see if something is starting to crack.

--<< Bruce >>--

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:52:52 -0600, Ignoramus22978
<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

No..it means you didnt get everything changed over to 240. Check your
diagrams again. Something is still trying to run at 480 and its not
working..hence the solenoid chattering

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

 

[Ignoramus22978]

On 2011-11-14, Jeffrey Angus <grendelair@aim.com> wrote:

On 11/13/2011 8:52 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

Ok, let's back up a bit. WHEN was the last time the hoist worked
like it should? When it was installed and operating on 480 v?

Or was it working at some point when re-wired for 240 v and THEN
started to act up with the brake solenoid?

I bought it at auction.

I have never seen this hoist run.

At my place, I have 240v 3ph only. (well, I have a transformer that I
could wire to get 460v, but it is sitting in the corner right now).

i

 

[Ignoramus22978]

On 2011-11-14, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:52:52 -0600, Ignoramus22978
ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

No..it means you didnt get everything changed over to 240. Check your
diagrams again. Something is still trying to run at 480 and its not
working..hence the solenoid chattering

Well, what I know is that I did measure voltage at the solenoid
terminals, and it was 230v.

i

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:40:30 -0600, Ignoramus22978
<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

On 2011-11-14, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:52:52 -0600, Ignoramus22978
ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Gunner Asch <gunnerasch@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:00:33 -0600, Ignoramus22978
ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Check to see if its not wired up for 440/480

Most of those hoists are dual voltage and while they will run on 220 if
wired for 440..the solenoids most often will not

The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

No..it means you didnt get everything changed over to 240. Check your
diagrams again. Something is still trying to run at 480 and its not
working..hence the solenoid chattering

Well, what I know is that I did measure voltage at the solenoid
terminals, and it was 230v.

i

Recheck all your wiring. And then see if the solenoids have any markings
on them that may indicate they were replaced with 480 only ones.

That chattering would indicate they are not getting enough poop to hold.

Got a 480 transformer? Rewire back to 480 and see if it works properly
at that voltage.

If there is 230 on those terminals..it means something is not properly
if the solenoids are the stock ones. So they may not be the stock ones.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:39:50 -0600, Ignoramus22978
<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

On 2011-11-14, Jeffrey Angus <grendelair@aim.com> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 8:52 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
The hoist can be entirely rewired for 240/480. It actually WAS wired
for 480 and I had to rewire. So, you are saying that to complete this
transition to 240, I would have to replace the solenoid?

i

Ok, let's back up a bit. WHEN was the last time the hoist worked
like it should? When it was installed and operating on 480 v?

Or was it working at some point when re-wired for 240 v and THEN
started to act up with the brake solenoid?

I bought it at auction.

I have never seen this hoist run.

At my place, I have 240v 3ph only. (well, I have a transformer that I
could wire to get 460v, but it is sitting in the corner right now).

i
Time to hook it up and set it up as a 480 power supply WITH DIFFERNT

PLUGS than your 240 system. You will run a lot of 480 stuff through
your shop..and you will need a power source to run/demo/test that
stuff.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

 

[Tony Miklos]

On 11/13/2011 9:51 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos<Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 12:48 PM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
On 2011-11-13, Tony Miklos<Tony.Miklos@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?

Two.

I've also worked on solenoids like that that have a switch and a
resistor for the "hold" circuit. Follow the wires. Same thing, if the
resistor or that circuit is open the solenoid will chatter open and closed.

This is assuming the solenoid does chatter, as if it's being turned on
and off rapidly, like a machine gun.

This is exactly what it does.

If it's just hanging up part way and buzzing then I'd agree with the
people who said to clean it up or replace it.

No, it chatters like a machine gun.

i

Follow the solenoid wires to look for an end of stroke switch. If it
has one it will be actuated and open when the solenoid is pulled in.
Check that circuit for a resistor or something else to lower the
solenoid voltage. The problem is that it gets power on the pull stroke
but no power for the hold position.