Hoist brake solenoid buzzes/fluckers instead of steadily pul

I

Ignoramus22978

Guest
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
 
On 11/13/2011 9:00 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
Click to expand...
It may have two windings on one coil. I deal with solenoids like that
all the time. The first strong winding pulls it in then opens a "end of
stroke" switch so it doesn't burn up. Then the second weaker winding is
just strong enough to hold it and can stay energized without burning up.
If the second weak winding is broke, you get a chattering action.
 
Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
Click to expand...
Or it's actually a DC coil and there is suppose to be a diode in
series some where ?

If there isn't any large amount of debris from what you think is
a dragging brake pad, I would leave it alone. It could be a design
feature to simply release the pad to allow them to slip freely and not
create a gap between the disc. This would allow for the quickest
engagement of the pads when the hoist is deactivated and thus less
mechanical slip jerk.

I suppose it could be a AC coil with at shaded ring tip in the
core, if that is the case, there should be some sign of over heated
coil wire that would indicate a few shorted turns, if you can see them.

Also, do do make coils with embedded diodes.

Jamie
 
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, Ignoramus22978 <ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
Click to expand...
 
Jamie wrote:
Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

Or it's actually a DC coil and there is suppose to be a diode in
series some where ?
Click to expand...

Sigh. As usual, Maynard (AKA: jamie) misses the point. It takes more
than a diode in series to convert an AC solenoid into a DC solenoid.
You also need a filter capacitor or you are trying to operate it on a
half cycle of the AC waveform, giving you 230 * .707 or 162.61 volts
which is 50% of the power of a full cycle. With the filter capacitor
you get 230 * 1.414 or 325.22 DC


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
 
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
Click to expand...
There would be more than 2 terminals on it if it had multiple windings.

MikeB

--
Email is valid but not checked often
 
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, Ignoramus22978<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
Click to expand...
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

There is only one coil. You get what you see.
 
On 11/13/2011 9:54 AM, GeorgeD wrote:
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.
Click to expand...
Looks like your typical washing machine part. And yes, lots of hold
power when the pole pieces touch.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.
Click to expand...
Serious case of corrosion there. No telling how much surface crud
on the sliding parts.

There is only one coil.
Click to expand...
Of course, but we still have to listen to Maynard's view of multi-
windings and embedded diodes.

Jeff


--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"
 
GeorgeD wrote:

On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, Ignoramus22978<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid
wrote:

I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

There is only one coil. You get what you see.


I didn't look at the picture before how ever, that solenoid needs replacing!
Click to expand...

Between the corrosion, most likely in the wire too, the laminates
are most likely bad!

THat part of the equipment should be well closed to keep it much
cleaner than that!

P.S.

I know of an area of our work place where a whole bunch of new
solenoids are stored just for that hoist! We no longer have hoist
of that type in operation. The solenoids are kept on hand for R&D
material until they run out, they also make good look bolt retractors.


Jamie
 
Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 11/13/2011 9:54 AM, GeorgeD wrote:

That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.


Looks like your typical washing machine part. And yes, lots of hold
power when the pole pieces touch.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.


Serious case of corrosion there. No telling how much surface crud
on the sliding parts.

There is only one coil.


Of course, but we still have to listen to Maynard's view of multi-
windings and embedded diodes.

Jeff
Click to expand...
You don't need to listen to me at all, if facts bother you then just
please put me on your ignore list, I wouldn't want to be responsible for
causing you any pain and agony.

It's a shame the simple minded can't see past their nose.


Jamie
 
On 11/13/2011 10:18 AM, Jamie wrote:
It's a shame the simple minded can't see past their nose.
Click to expand...
How ironic.

Jeff

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"
 
Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 11/13/2011 10:18 AM, Jamie wrote:

It's a shame the simple minded can't see past their nose.


How ironic.

Jeff

Yeah, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Hope you enjoy your dilemma..

Have a nice day.

Jamie
 
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html
Click to expand...
I don't see the wires. How many wires does the solenoid have?
 
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:21:30 -0600, Ignoramus22978
<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:

Here's a picture.
http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html
Click to expand...
Clean off the corrosion before blundering forward. It's likely that
the jerkiness is cuased by corrosion or rust on the moving parts of
the solenoid. I suggest you tear it apart, clean off what can be
easily removed, use a wire brush on everything else, coat is with some
kind of sealer (clear acrylic), and make sure everything moves easily
and correctly before reassembling. If that's too much, it looks like
the solenoid can be removed with 4 screws and a cotter pin, so start
cleaning there.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
On Nov 13, 8:00 am, Ignoramus22978 <ignoramus22...@NOSPAM.
22978.invalid> wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
Click to expand...
Have you thought of contacting the manufactirer?
 
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> fired this volley in
news:2-qdnbSWuLmrfyLTnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@earthlink.com:

Sigh. As usual, Maynard (AKA: jamie) misses the point. It takes
more
than a diode in series to convert an AC solenoid into a DC solenoid.
You also need a filter capacitor or you are trying to operate it on a
half cycle of the AC waveform, giving you 230 * .707 or 162.61 volts
which is 50% of the power of a full cycle. With the filter capacitor
you get 230 * 1.414 or 325.22 DC
Click to expand...
Michael, it's even less than that: Full-wave single-phase rectified AC
has an area under the curve of .707*Vpeak. Half-wave has half THAT area.
If you filter half-wave, and draw no current from the cap, it charges to
peak V-in.

Filtered - either half-wave or full-wave - the DC voltage never rises
above peak, regardless of draw, unless you use a doubler circuit. A
full-wave rectifier (with or without filtering) is not a doubler.

Lloyd
 
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> fired this volley in
news:2-qdnbSWuLmrfyLTnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@earthlink.com:

Sigh. As usual, Maynard (AKA: jamie) misses the point. It takes
more
than a diode in series to convert an AC solenoid into a DC solenoid.
You also need a filter capacitor or you are trying to operate it on a
half cycle of the AC waveform, giving you 230 * .707 or 162.61 volts
which is 50% of the power of a full cycle. With the filter capacitor
you get 230 * 1.414 or 325.22 DC

Michael, it's even less than that: Full-wave single-phase rectified AC
has an area under the curve of .707*Vpeak. Half-wave has half THAT area.
If you filter half-wave, and draw no current from the cap, it charges to
peak V-in.

Filtered - either half-wave or full-wave - the DC voltage never rises
above peak, regardless of draw, unless you use a doubler circuit. A
full-wave rectifier (with or without filtering) is not a doubler.
Click to expand...

How is 230 * 1.414 a doubler? It is a simple rectifier & filter for
the input voltage. Of course you have the forward drop of the
rectifier, and it will be less than that if the filter is too small.
You don't need a full wave bridge, or millions of old line operated
radios would have never worked. They were a simple rectifier & a 160
VDC electrolytic, usually around 30 ľF.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
 
On 2011-11-13, BQ340 <bq340@Adelphia.net> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks

There would be more than 2 terminals on it if it had multiple windings.

MikeB
Click to expand...
OK, I kind of suspected that also (based on my past diesel generator
experiences).

i
 
Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 11/13/2011 9:54 AM, GeorgeD wrote:
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Looks like your typical washing machine part. And yes, lots of hold
power when the pole pieces touch.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

Serious case of corrosion there. No telling how much surface crud
on the sliding parts.

There is only one coil.

Of course, but we still have to listen to Maynard's view of multi-
windings and embedded diodes.
Click to expand...

What else do you expect from 'Skippy - V2.0'? He also thinks
Electret microphones are crystal microphones, and that you can easily
change the bandgap in LEDs to adjust the color. He's a real, no class
clown on sci.electronics.design.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
 
On 2011-11-13, GeorgeD <GeorgeD@nothere.invalid> wrote:
On 11/13/2011 10:21 AM, Ignoramus22978 wrote:
Here's a picture.

http://boss-proxy.chudov.com/tmp/tmp-0432.jpg.html

i
On 2011-11-13, Ignoramus22978<ignoramus22978@NOSPAM.22978.invalid> wrote:
I have a 3 phase Yale 1/2 ton hoist. It has an electric brake with a
solenoid, whose job is to pull away the brake lever when 230VAC is
supplied to it.

The problem is that it does not do it. Instead of steadily pulling
away, it constantly jerks the lever, but never far enough to the end
point where it is supposed to be pulled away. So, the brake is not
disengaged as the hoist operates. I am glad that I noticed that.

I tried pulling on the lever by hand when the solenoid was engaged. I
noticed that if I help the solenoid and pull away the lever to the
end, jerking stops completely, but if I slowly let go of the lever and
it returns to the brake position, jerking resumes.

I am thinking that perhaps this solenoid has two separate coils,
pulling and holding one, and the holding one is not working or not
engaging?

Any idea?

thanks
That solenoid requires that the pole pieces be in contact. Then it will
hold (strongly). If it can not close completely, it will vibrate. Not
much of a puller, but a big holder.

Check to make sure it can pull in fully and that the poles are not
cruded up. It looks like it only needs some cleaning and TLC.

There is only one coil. You get what you see.
Click to expand...
I put some penetrating oil on the screws, I will get it off and clean
thoroughly. Thanks.

i
 
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