Help winding my own inductor?

[John Fields]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:34:16 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:20:15 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Then, if we search the wire
chart for the wire size with a cross sectional area which most closely
approximates 0.003532 square inches we find that #14, with a cross
sectional area of 0.003225 square inches fills the bill, As I posted
earlier.


Except that your lame, retarded ass is only looking at even gauges.

Ther are odd gauges, and half gauges, you stupid fuck. 14 is NOT
the nearest gauge.

---
Had you known that earlier you wouldn't have claimed that 7 strands of
#22 is equivalent to #16 ya dumb cunt.

Just to see if you learned it right, why don't you post which wire size
seven strands of #22 most closely approximates? That oughta be easy
enough to do, even for you ,since all you have to do is compare
diameters. You don't even have to strain yourself and figure out the
areas. I'll even help you; everything you need to know is at:

http://www.mwswire.com/index.html

Bye, Bozo.

--
John Fields

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:35:46 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:28:08 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Since you knew that litz wire was named after Herr Litz, I guess you're
right.

You're an idiot. Bare wires would form a single conductor.
Isolated wires form litz configurations. No braiding or weaving is
required.

---
Yawnnnn...

This is getting boring. If you can't come up with something less mundane
and repetitious I'm going to wait until you make a mistake in another
thread before I prove what a fucking bullshit artist liar you are.
Again.

Ta, twat

--
John Fields

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:37:10 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:35:00 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Which is what you thought you were dealing with. (A #16 equivalent, that
is...)

You are incorrect.

---
Well, you said that the paralleled #22s were equivalent to a #16, so it
stands to reason that if you were replacing something with what you
wound, and what you wound was equivalent to something which you were
replacing, what you were replacing was a #16.
---

The coil was initially wound with 14 Ga solid wire.

---
You're either a liar or you don't know the difference between #16 and
#14, or both. Both is most likely.
---

The litz wound coils work better.

---
Yeah, too bad you didn't have anything litz-wound around to find out
_how_ much better. You probably wouldn't know how to find out anyway
since the way you choose ferrite cores is by whether they get hot or
not. Real pro fucking piece of shit loser.
---

The reason is skin effect. Period.

---
So you've been told, but if you had to work out what the skin depth was
at a particular frequency and then choose the most economical litz
configuration to get the area you needed to get the required maximum
allowable resistance for the application you'd soon find yourself
asking. "Want fries with that?"


--
John Fields

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:38:21 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:09:33 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:55:08 -0500, "Greg Neill"
gneillREM@OVE.netcom.ca> wrote:

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:tgmguv0c99nc5pr9r6iudjor9buf2k068h@4ax.com...

---
Well, let's see...

One strand of #22 has a cross sectional area of 0.0005046 square inches,
and one strand of #19 has a cross sectional area of 0.001012 square
inches, so 0.001012/0.0005046 = 2.005549 strands ~ 2 strands.

Hmmm. For DC or AC use? If AC, at what frequency? Like beauty,
electricity is sometimes only skin deep.


Read the fucking thread.

Plonk to the lame fuck!

I don't need to read your baby bullshit anymore.

---
Goodbye, Mr. Ostrich.

--
John Fields

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:41:36 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:55:33 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Hey, asshole, if you'd taken a few minutes to check the thread you'd
have found out exactly what was going on and you would have gotten the
answers to one of your questions. But no, you'd rather be an
inconsiderate little prick and have everybody else do your legwork for
you.

Fuck you _and_ your sarcastic "have a nice day" shit.


This is the same retard that re-iterates what is written on a site
to someone to the tune of 40 or more lines, but doesn't have a single
line expressing so much as the time of day here.

---
Awww... I'm hurt! Here I take precious time out of my life to teach you
how to use arithmetic to solve wire gauge equivalency problems, and what
do I get? Derision because I helped someone else once and you realized
how abyssmally fucking stupid you were when you read my ***EXCELLENT***
exposition about the relationship between uppercase 'W' and uppercase
'omega' and you realized that you hadn't understood anything about that
relationship until you read it. Sour grapes, Darky???
---

What an ignorant, retarded troll fuck you are.

Fuck you, and your petty kaka ass, ya dumb fuck.

---
Banal, inconsequential blather, as usual...

--
John Fields

 

[James Meyer]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:35:46 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wroth:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:28:08 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Since you knew that litz wire was named after Herr Litz, I guess you're
right.

You're an idiot. Bare wires would form a single conductor.
Isolated wires form litz configurations. No braiding or weaving is
required.

Braiding and/or weaving *is* necessary if you want the multiple strands
to work like Litz wire and reduce the AC skin effect inherent in all single
element *or* non-woven multiple conductors.

If you string up three wires in parallel and they stay side by side in
the same orientation from end to end, then more AC current will flow in the
outer two wires than in the center one.

Jim

 

[bushbadee]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:41:36 -0800, DarkMatter
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

Who really gives a shit what dm wrote.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:47:24 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Yawnnnn...

This is getting boring. If you can't come up with something less mundane
and repetitious I'm going to wait until you make a mistake in another
thread before I prove what a fucking bullshit artist liar you are.
Again.

Ta, twat

You keep stalking me, fuckhead, and it WILL reverse on your lame
ass. Consider THAT as your ONLY warning.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:08:58 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:37:10 -0800, DarkMatter
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:35:00 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Which is what you thought you were dealing with. (A #16 equivalent, that
is...)

You are incorrect.

---
Well, you said that the paralleled #22s were equivalent to a #16, so it
stands to reason that if you were replacing something with what you
wound, and what you wound was equivalent to something which you were
replacing, what you were replacing was a #16.
---

The coil was initially wound with 14 Ga solid wire.

---
You're either a liar or you don't know the difference between #16 and
#14, or both. Both is most likely.
---
You're a godamned idiot. We didn't have any #14 around, so I had to

get some from another coil. A very small amount. It was not easy to
wind with on this core.

When we used the litz bundle to make the coil, the wire ended up
smaller, but the coil worked better.

The problem is that you, in all your self legend glory, cannot grasp
the FACT that it was the litz effects that made the coil operate
better.

The litz wound coils work better.

Yeah, too bad you didn't have anything litz-wound around to find out
_how_ much better.

Too bad you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. We have
44 #75 strand litz, as well as others. We also configure our own,
which is where your retarded ass is stuck ... thinking that it is
woven. It is not. It is 44 strands of 75 ga wire.

If you'll remember, dufus, the site YOU posted shows simple, three
strand litz wires, so it doesn't have to be some high number of fine
wire to make litz wire. Nor does it have to be woven.

You probably wouldn't know how to find out anyway
since the way you choose ferrite cores is by whether they get hot or
not. Real pro fucking piece of shit loser.

You do not have ANY fucking clue as to what my criteria are for core
utilization on chokes, you goddamned little piece of shit.

The reason is skin effect. Period.

So you've been told, but if you had to work out what the skin depth was
at a particular frequency and then choose the most economical litz
configuration to get the area you needed to get the required maximum
allowable resistance for the application you'd soon find yourself
asking. "Want fries with that?"

You're a goddamned idiot. The fact that the litz wire
configurations I use work prove that the "skin depth" is apparently
sufficient such that litz wires work at the frequencies I run at. The
gains received are part of the engineering of the product. It is
called optimizing circuit operation efficiencies, but I would expect a
lame fuck like you to get it.

Dumbfuck Litz makes resistance smaller, not larger.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:25:48 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

Derision because I helped someone else once and you realized
how abyssmally fucking stupid you were when you read my ***EXCELLENT***
exposition about the relationship between uppercase 'W' and uppercase
'omega' and you realized that you hadn't understood anything about that
relationship until you read it. Sour grapes, Darky???

You exposed nothing. In fact, you made NO mention of the error on
the page at all. You fucking liar.

You're full of shit, asswipe. I told you that I had dealt with the
W "symbol" font issue weeks earlier, and even pointed to a binary post
in the schematics groups to prove it. You were too goddamned lazy and
retarded to get it.

Lower case w looks LIKE the lower case omega symbol. Upper case W
looks NOTHING like ANY omega symbol, you retarded twit fuck!

I knew it WAY before you did, and if you read the thread, I
mentioned to the guy that DID get it right (the second poster on the
thread) before I ever said a fucking thing to your lame ass.

YOU are the one that took the criticism wrong, ya wussy boy fuck.
The discussion about the W took place before I ever had the argument
with you, you ignorant little bastard.

You are so fucking retarded that you steam frothy in the shit.

I have been working with that symbol for a long time in my
documents, dipshit. The "sour grapes" are yours. I told YOU about
it. You jacked your mouth, and your posts around, and in this one
claim that I didn't even know about it. You're a goddamned liar, and
a retarded one at that.

You better hope that you never introduce yourself to me on the
street. I beat the fuck out of liars when I find them.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:35:37 GMT, James Meyer <jmeyer@nowhere.com>
Gave us:

Braiding and/or weaving *is* necessary if you want the multiple strands
to work like Litz wire and reduce the AC skin effect inherent in all single
element *or* non-woven multiple conductors.

If the wires are bare, they form a single conductor. If they are
not, they form a litz wire. No weaving is required. Woven litz
functions better, but is NOT a requisite to see the effect.

The skin effect is not being reduced with litz wire, it is being
exploited. Maximized even.

The multiple strands each have their skin, and that total skin area
is increased, giving the wire a larger apparent size, from the
perspective of the high frequency currents on it. If the wires are
bare, they meld together form the current's POV.

So, if it is more than one element, there will be a reduction in
impedance on the wire at higher frequencies. Period.

It does not require that it be RF either. It does not require
weaving. All that is being done is that a "skin" is provided to the
current flow in areas of a given wire bundle that would normally NOT
be provided in a single strand, or bare bundle.

So, as l;ong as the wires are isolated from each other, there WILL
be a skin effect for all non DC use above a dead slow frequency.
In other words, there is a propagation delay, but it doesn't require
RF to show an effect, and therefore a benefit.

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

 

[Frank Bemelman]

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> schreef in bericht
news:98vjuvkgp3p5q4q54o13le193qb6edh5nc@4ax.com...

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

I would think that was done for more practical reasons, such as weight,
stretchability, even redundancy perhaps.


--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:22:01 +0100, "Frank Bemelman"
<fbemelx@euronet.invalid.nl> Gave us:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> schreef in bericht
news:98vjuvkgp3p5q4q54o13le193qb6edh5nc@4ax.com...

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

I would think that was done for more practical reasons, such as weight,
stretchability, even redundancy perhaps.

Funny. They constantly refer to skin effect. Even in the PBS
documentaries describing them.

I never believed it either, being at a mere 60Hz, but one hears
power boys in this group mentioning that there is an effect... all the
time.

I shouldn't have to dig one up.

Anyway, I happen to know that there are notable effects at even
10kHz. So there will certainly be effects at 20kHz, which is where my
argument was centered. The circumferential "skin" on the wire is the
main factor here. Litz wire increases that whether there is weaving
or not, Regardless of the woven styles used in HF RF systems, there
are plenty of litz offerings by these wire makers that are NOT woven,
and are not centered on HF RF use.

Anybody in the switch mode PS industry knows this.

 

[James Meyer]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:05:31 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wroth:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:35:37 GMT, James Meyer <jmeyer@nowhere.com
Gave us:

Braiding and/or weaving *is* necessary if you want the multiple strands
to work like Litz wire and reduce the AC skin effect inherent in all single
element *or* non-woven multiple conductors.

If the wires are bare, they form a single conductor. If they are
not, they form a litz wire. No weaving is required. Woven litz
functions better, but is NOT a requisite to see the effect.

Do you know *why* AC currents in a single wire tend to flow in its skin
and avoid the center of the wire? Once we agree on the basic mechanism, I think
I can show you why braiding is necessary.

Jim

P.S. You could Google sed to see some of my earlier posts on the subject of
skin effect. I even posted a spice simulation for skin effects.

 

[James Meyer]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:22:01 +0100, "Frank Bemelman"
<fbemelx@euronet.invalid.nl> wroth:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> schreef in bericht
news:98vjuvkgp3p5q4q54o13le193qb6edh5nc@4ax.com...

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

I would think that was done for more practical reasons, such as weight,
stretchability, even redundancy perhaps.

Not to mention voltage breakdown effects. A thin wire causes a large
field concentration, volts per meter, around it when compared to a larger
diameter wire. Four wires spaced apart tend to look like a single larger wire
for field purposes.

Jim

 

[James Meyer]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:56:56 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wroth:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:22:01 +0100, "Frank Bemelman"
fbemelx@euronet.invalid.nl> Gave us:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> schreef in bericht
news:98vjuvkgp3p5q4q54o13le193qb6edh5nc@4ax.com...

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

I would think that was done for more practical reasons, such as weight,
stretchability, even redundancy perhaps.

Funny. They constantly refer to skin effect. Even in the PBS
documentaries describing them.

I never believed it either, being at a mere 60Hz, but one hears
power boys in this group mentioning that there is an effect... all the
time.

I shouldn't have to dig one up.

If you did, you'd find that the skin depth for copper at 60 Hz is close

to a half an inch. If the current is great enough so that you need a wire
greater than an inch in diameter to carry it, then you can save copper by
running more than one wire.

That's due skin effect, but it has nothing to do with Litz wire.

Jim

 

[bushbadee]

or a tube.


"James Meyer" <jmeyer@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:uq7kuv8q97g1p97tksqiktvtto8eaveslq@4ax.com...

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:56:56 -0800, DarkMatter
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wroth:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:22:01 +0100, "Frank Bemelman"
fbemelx@euronet.invalid.nl> Gave us:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> schreef in
bericht
news:98vjuvkgp3p5q4q54o13le193qb6edh5nc@4ax.com...

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

I would think that was done for more practical reasons, such as weight,
stretchability, even redundancy perhaps.

Funny. They constantly refer to skin effect. Even in the PBS
documentaries describing them.

I never believed it either, being at a mere 60Hz, but one hears
power boys in this group mentioning that there is an effect... all the
time.

I shouldn't have to dig one up.

If you did, you'd find that the skin depth for copper at 60 Hz is close
to a half an inch. If the current is great enough so that you need a wire
greater than an inch in diameter to carry it, then you can save copper by
running more than one wire.

That's due skin effect, but it has nothing to do with Litz wire.

Jim

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:54:06 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

I beat the fuck out of liars when I find them.

---
Take a look in the mirror and start pounding away, then.

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:05:31 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

If the wires are bare, they form a single conductor. If they are
not, they form a litz wire. No weaving is required. Woven litz
functions better, but is NOT a requisite to see the effect.

The skin effect is not being reduced with litz wire, it is being
exploited. Maximized even.

The multiple strands each have their skin, and that total skin area
is increased, giving the wire a larger apparent size, from the
perspective of the high frequency currents on it. If the wires are
bare, they meld together form the current's POV.

So, if it is more than one element, there will be a reduction in
impedance on the wire at higher frequencies. Period.

It does not require that it be RF either. It does not require
weaving. All that is being done is that a "skin" is provided to the
current flow in areas of a given wire bundle that would normally NOT
be provided in a single strand, or bare bundle.

So, as l;ong as the wires are isolated from each other, there WILL
be a skin effect for all non DC use above a dead slow frequency.
In other words, there is a propagation delay, but it doesn't require
RF to show an effect, and therefore a benefit.

Even the power line boys know that, and they are at 60Hz, with their
bundles separated by 4 inches of air between each strand.

---
You are hopelessly lost and when you refuse to even consider that
offers to help you out of the woods are being made by others more
knowledgeable than you are for no other purpose than to help you out,
you really put yourself in a position which becomes more and more
difficult to extract yourself from. Pity...

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:27:42 GMT, James Meyer <jmeyer@nowhere.com>
Gave us:

If you did, you'd find that the skin depth for copper at 60 Hz is close
to a half an inch. If the current is great enough so that you need a wire
greater than an inch in diameter to carry it, then you can save copper by
running more than one wire.

That's due skin effect, but it has nothing to do with Litz wire.

Those lines are typically NOT copper. They are not saving copper
either.

They run multiple strands to reduce I squared R effects. If all of
the cables are an inch in diameter, your half inch skin area is where
all the current will be flowing. In each strand. The result is that
an equal single strand will not pass as much as the multiple array
will. That is due to skin effect. The configuration form of using
multiple isolated strands is a litz configuration.

If they were bonded together into one bundle, they would exhibit no
benefit from skin effect. It appears as one conductor.

If there IS a benefit from skin effect, and it is due to multiple
isolated conductors on a given run between two nodes, then it is a
litz configuration, because THAT is the sole purpose for doing it.

My bundling of multiple mag strands to garner gains from skin
effects IS a litz configuration because THAT is what litz
configurations are for, regardless of the fact that the best
configurations for the highest frequencies uses a woven form. That
does NOT state that woven forms are the only that qualify for the
moniker.