Help winding my own inductor?

[Ross Mac]

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:8ocbuvcfke2pu8joqfoc9mt9j4itr9ip9u@4ax.com...

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:27:36 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:


Absolutely not. That's 'wave winding'.

That isn't the proper term for that either.

The term "helical wound" seems to pop to the surface of my ravaged
mind.

Nice Triple post...hmmmmm....didn't you call me a "net twit" for posting
only twice....so by your own definition what does that make you with a
triple post???
Some food for thought......

 

[John Fields]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:25:30 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:04:20 -0800, DaveC <me@privacy.net> Gave us:

Is there an easier way to wind a toroid? To my inexperienced hands, it really
sounds like a bobbin in a pot core is going to be much easier. What am I
missing, here?

Well, it is, but I'll bet it would get hot too.

---
The point is not whether or not it would get hot, but whether or not
it's easier to wind than a toroid, which I earlier said it was. You
chose to disagree because of ignorance or petulance, but now that you
admit it _is_ easier to wind you're forgiven. You're welcome.
---

You make a "shuttlecock". It is a rectangular shaped object that is
big enough to pass thru the core opening, and you wind the length of
wire onto it before you begin on the toroid. Yes, it has to pass
thru that many times. However many times that is.

I just wound four that operate at 19Khz. They were either 27uH or
27mH. I can't remeber which, but we tried several cores that were
getting hot, and this one worked. This application was several amps.

I used 7 #22Ga for just over 16 gauge equivalent. It was about an
inch and a quarter core, and it was like 12 turns.

---
#14 AWG, _not_ #16 is a close equivalent to 7 strands of #22,

7 parallel strands of #22 AWG, each with a cross sectional area of
0.0005046 square inches, will enclose a total area of 0.003532 square
inches.

A single strand of #16 AWG will enclose an area of 0.002028 square
inches, only about 4.019 times the area of a single strand of the #22.

A single strand of #14 AWG will enclose an area of 0.003225 square
inches, about 6.39 times the area of a single strand of the #22, so
seven strands of #22 will be equivalent to just over a single strand of
#14, _not_ #16.
---

Very high perm cores ended up getting used.

I didn't use a shuttle. Litz moves easily. I could post a pic,
next week sometime.

---
Seven parallel strands of #22 AWG is _not_ Litz wire, and even if the
inch and a quarter you're talking about is the height of the toroid,
that's a total length of less than five feet for the winding, so why
even bother with a shuttle?

--
John Fields

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:06:57 GMT, "Ross Mac"
<this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> Gave us:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:8ocbuvcfke2pu8joqfoc9mt9j4itr9ip9u@4ax.com...
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:27:36 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:


Absolutely not. That's 'wave winding'.

That isn't the proper term for that either.

The term "helical wound" seems to pop to the surface of my ravaged
mind.

Nice Triple post...hmmmmm....didn't you call me a "net twit" for posting
only twice....so by your own definition what does that make you with a
triple post???

You still don't get it, dipshit. I posted the above ONE TIME. That
is ONE response. I also answered other elements of the post I
referred to in ANOTHER response. You're an idiot.

YOU posted the SAME post redundantly, ya button happy twit.

 

[Ross Mac]

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:u3gbuvgq0u41350pppshh199s2esb8ts3b@4ax.com...

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:06:57 GMT, "Ross Mac"
this.is.a.mung@example.invalid> Gave us:


"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in
message
news:8ocbuvcfke2pu8joqfoc9mt9j4itr9ip9u@4ax.com...
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:27:36 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:


Absolutely not. That's 'wave winding'.

That isn't the proper term for that either.

The term "helical wound" seems to pop to the surface of my ravaged
mind.

Nice Triple post...hmmmmm....didn't you call me a "net twit" for posting
only twice....so by your own definition what does that make you with a
triple post???

You still don't get it, dipshit. I posted the above ONE TIME. That
is ONE response. I also answered other elements of the post I
referred to in ANOTHER response. You're an idiot.

YOU posted the SAME post redundantly, ya button happy twit.

Never posted the same message twice doper boy....If you would take the time
to read it....it was definitely, not the same....why don't you show me where
they were the same since you insist? Message ID please....
You made ANOTHER mistake and are now revising the facts to cover your screw
up......And of course the usual rhetoric, in a lame effort to change the
subject....
Bong on doper boy!

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:46:43 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

#14 AWG, _not_ #16 is a close equivalent to 7 strands of #22,

7 parallel strands of #22 AWG, each with a cross sectional area of
0.0005046 square inches, will enclose a total area of 0.003532 square
inches.

Here we go again.

Wire gauge doubles every THREE full integer wire sizes.

22Ga is then 19 Ga at three strands, and just bigger than 16 Ga
seven strands.

At six strands, it would be 16 Gauge equivalent.

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 06:42:16 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:27:36 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:

There are only certain numbers of strands that can be made into
*genuine* litz.

Yer an idiot.

---
Hardly.
---

It is an effect, the guy got credit for it.

---
What guy? The term 'litz wire' is derived from the German word
'litzendraht', meaning woven wire.
---

Strand count increases
the effect, but there is no minimum.

---
What effect?
---

I can take a single wire choke, and a two strand choke, and a three
strand choke, etc., etc., and wind the same turns count on the same
core, and get different HF performance from each.

---
But not because of the diminution of skin effect, unless you're talking
RF.
---

THAT *IS* because of skin effect, and that *IS* why multiple strands
work, and it *IS* called a litz wound configuration.

---
In lower frequency applications, the reason for using multiply stranded
conductors is usually to allow more completely filling a winding window
and has _nothing_ to do with skin effect.
---

There is no minimum strand count for a wire to be called litz (well
two, actually). The ONLY requisite is that the strands remain
isolated from each other from end to end, except at the terminations.

---
I suggest you get on over to Google, type in "litz wire" and actually
read what you see. Then get back to us and let us know how many
instances of two-strand Litz wire you find.

--
John Fields

 

[Winfield Hill]

DarkMatter wrote...

There is no minimum strand count for a wire to be called litz (well
two, actually). The ONLY requisite is that the strands remain
isolated from each other from end to end, except at the terminations.

In coil configurations the Proximity effect generally greatly
exceeds ordinary skin effect. That's one reason the multiple
strands MUST also be woven. Untwisted wires allow any strands
located closer to the center of the coil to end up with lower
currents. Twisting may suffice for a small number of strands,
but in the general case some form of weaving is required. The
more "woven" the litz strands are, the better their performance
will be, ultimately with Rac/Rdc = 1 at all frequencies. I'll
venture that most commercial litz wire isn't fully woven, but
it performs much better than simple twisted strands.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

 

[John Fields]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:17:07 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:46:43 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

#14 AWG, _not_ #16 is a close equivalent to 7 strands of #22,

7 parallel strands of #22 AWG, each with a cross sectional area of
0.0005046 square inches, will enclose a total area of 0.003532 square
inches.

Here we go again.

Wire gauge doubles every THREE full integer wire sizes.

22Ga is then 19 Ga at three strands, and just bigger than 16 Ga
seven strands.

At six strands, it would be 16 Gauge equivalent.

---
Omigod! You don't even know how to use a wire chart, or how to use
simple arithmetic. Sorry, I didn't know.

Here, let me help you. Starting with a piece of #22, to double its
cross sectional area you would have to go to #19, as you say, and then
to double _that_ area you would have to go to #16, again as you say.

However, doubling the area twice only gets you to 4 times the area of a
single strand of #22, so to get to 8 times the area you'd have to
increase the gauge by another three sizes, to #13.

But, seven strands of #22 doesn't enclose the same area as eight strands
of #22, they enclose seven times the area. Now, looking at the entry in
the wire chart for the cross sectional area of #22 and then finding the
entry which most closely yields seven times that area results in #14 AWG
being found. Got it?

--
John Fields

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that DarkMatter <DarkMatter@thebaratthe
endoftheuniverse.org> wrote (in <jacbuv8j5gbhknk9v8t1g3bvu3htoh1qb8@4ax.
com&gt about 'Help winding my own inductor?', on Sun, 21 Dec 2003:

which we credit Mr. Litz for
discovering.

Brilliant! You call me an idiot and claim to know all about the subject,
yet you think it was invented by someone called 'Litz'!

'Litz' is short for the German word 'Litzendraht'. Being a German noun,
it starts with a capital letter. 'Litze' means 'lace', 'cord' or
'braid'. The strands of genuine Litz are interwoven in a specific way,
not just twisted or bunched. It works only for certain numbers of
strands, in the same way, roughly, as twisting works properly only for
7, 19, 37, 61, 97... etc. strands (numbers above 37 may be slightly
wrong).
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that DarkMatter <DarkMatter@thebaratthe
endoftheuniverse.org> wrote (in <8ocbuvcfke2pu8joqfoc9mt9j4itr9ip9u@4ax.
com&gt about 'Help winding my own inductor?', on Sun, 21 Dec 2003:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:27:36 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:


Absolutely not. That's 'wave winding'.

That isn't the proper term for that either.

The term "helical wound" seems to pop to the surface of my ravaged
mind.

Tie a weight on it and let it sink back. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that DarkMatter <DarkMatter@thebaratthe
endoftheuniverse.org> wrote (in <8i7auvkadbh93ss7i7et2v4v4s5n6eg1p2@4ax.
com&gt about 'Help winding my own inductor?', on Sat, 20 Dec 2003:

They were either 27uH or
27mH.

I LIKE it! just a factor of 32 times as many turns. Expert? Ha!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:35:43 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

--
What effect?

Now, it appears that you don't even know what litz wire is for.

I found a chart that lists litz configurations with strand counts as
low as three.

http://www.litz-wire.com/pdf%20files/charts.pdf

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:35:43 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

But not because of the diminution of skin effect, unless you're talking
RF.

Skin effect is the exact reason. Again, I can place the same number
of turns at the SAME circular mil area onto a core and get different
performance at different operating frequencies, and said performance
is HIGHER on the multi-strand configurations, and the reason IS skin
effect.

Where have you been?

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:35:43 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

In lower frequency applications, the reason for using multiply stranded
conductors is usually to allow more completely filling a winding window
and has _nothing_ to do with skin effect.

I make linear and switched power supplies, and I know that there is
an effect, and we get better operation at the same gauges on any given
choke. It has everything to do with skin effect.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:35:43 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

I suggest you get on over to Google, type in "litz wire" and actually
read what you see. Then get back to us and let us know how many
instances of two-strand Litz wire you find.

A few posts ago, you were telling us how seven strands did not make
a litz wire. Now, after your lame ass has done some searching, and
you know there are 3 strand configurations, your lame ass attacks my
statement that any strand count above one is litz.

You're an idiot.

I am right. It is, but it doesn't take up any more space to go
three strand, and that twists easily. It is usually the minimum
strand count offered. I already knew that, however.

 

[DarkMatter]

On 21 Dec 2003 09:00:22 -0800, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> Gave us:

In coil configurations the Proximity effect generally greatly
exceeds ordinary skin effect. That's one reason the multiple
strands MUST also be woven.

Litz wire is NOT woven. Exotic types are, but most litz is standard
mag wire.

Here's a simple site chart that lists 3 strand and up.

http://www.litz-wire.com/pdf%20files/charts.pdf

Sheesh!

 

[DarkMatter]

On 21 Dec 2003 09:00:22 -0800, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> Gave us:

I'll
venture that most commercial litz wire isn't fully woven, but
it performs much better than simple twisted strands.

You lose. Most commercial litz is simple twisted or even non
twisted bundling.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:05:46 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:17:07 -0800, DarkMatter
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:46:43 -0600, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> Gave us:

#14 AWG, _not_ #16 is a close equivalent to 7 strands of #22,

7 parallel strands of #22 AWG, each with a cross sectional area of
0.0005046 square inches, will enclose a total area of 0.003532 square
inches.

Here we go again.

Wire gauge doubles every THREE full integer wire sizes.

22Ga is then 19 Ga at three strands, and just bigger than 16 Ga
seven strands.

At six strands, it would be 16 Gauge equivalent.

---
Omigod! You don't even know how to use a wire chart, or how to use
simple arithmetic. Sorry, I didn't know.

Here, let me help you. Starting with a piece of #22, to double its
cross sectional area you would have to go to #19, as you say, and then
to double _that_ area you would have to go to #16, again as you say.

However, doubling the area twice only gets you to 4 times the area of a
single strand of #22, so to get to 8 times the area you'd have to
increase the gauge by another three sizes, to #13.

But, seven strands of #22 doesn't enclose the same area as eight strands
of #22, they enclose seven times the area. Now, looking at the entry in
the wire chart for the cross sectional area of #22 and then finding the
entry which most closely yields seven times that area results in #14 AWG
being found. Got it?

Look, chucko. WIre size doubles every three gauges. That is what I
said, and that is what is true.

In fact... Three 22s makes a 19, and three more makes another 19.

Two 19s doesn't even make one 16 so seven 22s is most certainly
closer to a single 16 than it is your lame assed 14 claim.

Try again.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:09:03 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:

'Litz' is short for the German word 'Litzendraht'. Being a German noun,
it starts with a capital letter. 'Litze' means 'lace', 'cord' or
'braid'. The strands of genuine Litz are interwoven in a specific way,
not just twisted or bunched.

Wrong. They MAY be woven, but generally are just twisted.

It works only for certain numbers of
strands, in the same way, roughly, as twisting works properly only for
7, 19, 37, 61, 97... etc. strands (numbers above 37 may be slightly
wrong).

Here you speak of perfect twisting. Which is it, boy, twisted or
woven?

No. TWISTING only works well with certain strand counts. You
describe circular object nesting numbers. A given, and known for
centuries. You state nothing new.

Litz effects occur with any count above one. It is simple math.
More skin, better performance. Period.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:10:14 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> Gave us:

Tie a weight on it and let it sink back. (;-)

Take this fuck you, stick it a foot up yer ass, and twist it.