Help! I've burned up 3 SATA drives today

[Baron]

root Inscribed thus:

root <NoEMail@home.org> wrote:
Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 01:36:27 +0000 (UTC), root <NoEMail@home.org
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I replaced the motherboard with one known to be good: I pulled
it from a working computer. I wanted to be able to use SATA
drives in the "new" case. The power supply did not have any
SATA power cables so I used the molex-sata power adapter cables.

When I turned the system on with the first SATA drive in
the system a component on the drive smoked and the
drive is dead. The component is a surface mount plastic
two-terminal (I think) device about 1/8 x 3/16 inch.
I can just barely read C651 on the device.

I see this problem several times per week in various storage forums.

In fact it's a FAQ:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/TVS_diode_FAQ.html

Here are several photo clips:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/

- Franc Zabkar

Thanks. I will clean out the debris and see if the drive
works. I had already put the drives in the recycle bin.

Well that was really worthwhile. First I tried the
drive that I saw burning. I clipped out the burned part
and removed all the parts. The drive came alive and,
apart from being sensitive to spikes, is working.

I had caught the other two drives before the part burned
up completely. No problem, when I connected them up the
fuse finished its burn and was easy to identify. Again
I clipped the fuse out, cleaned up the debris, and
both drives were seen.

If the drives had contained vital information I guess
this would give me a chance to pull the data.

Thanks, this has been very informative. I hope
those following this thread can profit.

I will scrap the power supply that is the likely
cause of the spikes.

That sort of confirms an open ground issue ! Though I don't think the
PSU itself is the culprit.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[root]

root <NoEMail@home.org> wrote:

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 01:36:27 +0000 (UTC), root <NoEMail@home.org> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

I replaced the motherboard with one known to be good: I pulled
it from a working computer. I wanted to be able to use SATA
drives in the "new" case. The power supply did not have any
SATA power cables so I used the molex-sata power adapter cables.

When I turned the system on with the first SATA drive in
the system a component on the drive smoked and the
drive is dead. The component is a surface mount plastic
two-terminal (I think) device about 1/8 x 3/16 inch.
I can just barely read C651 on the device.

I see this problem several times per week in various storage forums.

In fact it's a FAQ:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/TVS_diode_FAQ.html

Here are several photo clips:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/

- Franc Zabkar

Thanks. I will clean out the debris and see if the drive
works. I had already put the drives in the recycle bin.

Well that was really worthwhile. First I tried the
drive that I saw burning. I clipped out the burned part
and removed all the parts. The drive came alive and,
apart from being sensitive to spikes, is working.

I had caught the other two drives before the part burned
up completely. No problem, when I connected them up the
fuse finished its burn and was easy to identify. Again
I clipped the fuse out, cleaned up the debris, and
both drives were seen.

If the drives had contained vital information I guess
this would give me a chance to pull the data.

Thanks, this has been very informative. I hope
those following this thread can profit.

I will scrap the power supply that is the likely
cause of the spikes.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:26:26 +0000 (UTC), root <NoEMail@home.org> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

I had already put the drives in the recycle bin.

Hopefully you really did mean "put" rather than "throw".

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:57:14 +0000 (UTC), root <NoEMail@home.org> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

I had caught the other two drives before the part burned
up completely. No problem, when I connected them up the
fuse finished its burn and was easy to identify. Again
I clipped the fuse out, cleaned up the debris, and
both drives were seen.

It's not a fuse, it's a diode. A fuse goes open when it fails, whereas
the TVS diode goes short circuit. A fuse is in series with the supply,
whereas a TVS diode is in parallel with it, reverse biased, of course.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Wild_Bill]

I haven't seen the D-Vine case mentioned, but various problems that have
surfaced over the years have been related to numerous required ground
points, primarily on large circuit boards (in various types of equipment)
including motherboards.

Board designers sometimes don't connect critical/required ground points with
circuit traces.
All of the mounting screws on some motherboards were required for proper
connection of the ground points.. and in some instances, case backplates may
not have had threaded holes in the correct locations, so some of the screws
for the metal mounting posts (standoffs) were casually omitted by DIY
computer builders, and the boards would appear to be defective.

Another example is ground shields in other types of equipment (RCA), where
the solder around the shield tabs would crack, and the equiment would fail
to operate, due to the circuit board grounds needing to be tied together by
shield mounting tabs.

In various types of equipment where several voltage potentials exist within
certain sections of the circuitry, when a critical ground point is left open
the likelyhood that a required ground/zero-volts-point potential can float
(positive or negative).

On motherboards particularly, ground points may not be clearly marked as
critical circuit connections, whereas required safety ground points
typically will be marked in equipment with hazardous voltages.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"root" <NoEMail@home.org> wrote in message
news:jhdvm3$aup$1@news.albasani.net...

Big advance since my last post. I scrounged up
another expendable SATA drive and powered up
the system with the new ThermalTake PS. All went
well. That gave me the courage to put in two
more SATA drives and the system is running now
with all three drives in.

No progress in resolving the 3 burned drives
but my immediate goal of bringing up the system
in the new case is near complete.

All this, BTW, was because of the case: it is
a D-Vine Home theater case. Something suitable
for putting in a living room home entertainment
system.

 

[Jeff Urban]

Yes, the ground thingie(s). I would like to think this was caused more
by something connected that shouldn't be rather than the other way
around. However now we know that what fried was a protection diode.
Could it have been across what was suppose dto be 3.3V but was 5V ?
What would they have in there, a 3.9V zener ?

If I did the math right, feeding a 3.3V device with 5V would result in
somewhere aroung 2.3 X the power dissipation is it's analog. Digital
may be a bit different, I would think lower, by that I mean a slightly
smaller increase in dissipation. This because for the most part heat
in a digital device is from the saturation voltage of the
semiconductors and the capacitive load on anything that switches.What
this all means I think is thast a 3.3V device wil actually work on 5V
for a while, how long depends on alot of things. If the components
just barely meet spec, minutes or hours, but if you happen to have a
really superior specimen, who knows how long it may work, years
even.

If a similar diode exists for the 12V suply, it is probably 15V, which
means one volt will not bother it. In fact driving a motor, it might
just be fine with an extra volt, but the next standard zener value up
from 3.3 is 3.9. One volt is too much.

So if somehow a negative 1V somehow got on the commons, this would
explain it. But then how would that thappen ? Concievably if it were
an open circuit and chassis ground made that connection, even though
it's a bit far fetched as it assumes quite a bit of resistance in that
ground. It could happen though, with the uPrecessor drawing alot of
amps during bootup. Something like this may actually require a chain
of partial failures, just to make that one volt.

I agree that this is an intersting subject because the actual cause
seems to be elusive. If we don't know why it happened this time there
is no way in hell of keeping it from happening again.

J

 

[Baron]

Jeff Urban Inscribed thus:

Yes, the ground thingie(s). I would like to think this was caused more
by something connected that shouldn't be rather than the other way
around. However now we know that what fried was a protection diode.
Could it have been across what was suppose dto be 3.3V but was 5V ?
What would they have in there, a 3.9V zener ?

If I did the math right, feeding a 3.3V device with 5V would result in
somewhere aroung 2.3 X the power dissipation is it's analog. Digital
may be a bit different, I would think lower, by that I mean a slightly
smaller increase in dissipation. This because for the most part heat
in a digital device is from the saturation voltage of the
semiconductors and the capacitive load on anything that switches.What
this all means I think is thast a 3.3V device wil actually work on 5V
for a while, how long depends on alot of things. If the components
just barely meet spec, minutes or hours, but if you happen to have a
really superior specimen, who knows how long it may work, years
even.

If a similar diode exists for the 12V suply, it is probably 15V, which
means one volt will not bother it. In fact driving a motor, it might
just be fine with an extra volt, but the next standard zener value up
from 3.3 is 3.9. One volt is too much.

So if somehow a negative 1V somehow got on the commons, this would
explain it. But then how would that thappen ? Concievably if it were
an open circuit and chassis ground made that connection, even though
it's a bit far fetched as it assumes quite a bit of resistance in that
ground. It could happen though, with the uPrecessor drawing alot of
amps during bootup. Something like this may actually require a chain
of partial failures, just to make that one volt.

I agree that this is an intersting subject because the actual cause
seems to be elusive. If we don't know why it happened this time there
is no way in hell of keeping it from happening again.

J

I can see where you are going, but consider this...
A PC PSU has three major voltage outputs +12, +5, and +3.3. These are
the Yellow, Red and Orange wires respectively. Black is common to all
three. The Black wires, are normally common to the chassis. That is
the negative pole of all three are bonded to the case. The case is also
ground and would normally have an earth connected to it. At least in
the UK.

Now if you place a volt meter between the case and any output you will
read an appropriate voltage, 12, 5 or 3.3 volts.

Now do the same but connecting the voltmeter between the 12v and 3.3v
outputs. Depending upon which way round the meter test leads are you
will read + or - 8.7 volts. Do the same with any pair and you will see
a voltage equal to the difference between the pair.

This is exactly the scenario if the ground was OC on the sata drive or
if any other device had an OC ground.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Baron]

root Inscribed thus:

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote:

This is exactly the scenario if the ground was OC on the sata drive
or if any other device had an OC ground.


The molex connectors have two ground pins. I have seen
times that one of the pins is pushed out of the
connector, but not both. In my case, neither of the
ground pins were pushed out.

Yes I've seen that happen many times. I've always replaced bad pins,
though I don't recall having to replace many female pins.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Chris K]

On 15/02/2012 21:49, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo<jhe92o$vn2$1@news.albasani.net>, root<NoEMail@home.org
escribió:

I intend to pursue an explanation of what happened. If I find
out I will post here.

Thanks. Would be very interesting to know what it was.

I've done the same thing with a Molex/SATA converter. To my shame, I
put the Molex connector in upside down which lets the smoke out of a
SATA drive quite effectively.

Cheapo Molex connectors are not foolproof in their keying. Might be
useful if you see if you could have fitted yours upside down (with the
power off )

Chris K

 

[root]

Baron <baron@linuxmaniac.net> wrote:

This is exactly the scenario if the ground was OC on the sata drive or
if any other device had an OC ground.

The molex connectors have two ground pins. I have seen
times that one of the pins is pushed out of the
connector, but not both. In my case, neither of the
ground pins were pushed out.

 

[root]

Chris K <nebody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 15/02/2012 21:49, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo<jhe92o$vn2$1@news.albasani.net>, root<NoEMail@home.org
escribió:

I intend to pursue an explanation of what happened. If I find
out I will post here.

Thanks. Would be very interesting to know what it was.


I've done the same thing with a Molex/SATA converter. To my shame, I
put the Molex connector in upside down which lets the smoke out of a
SATA drive quite effectively.

Cheapo Molex connectors are not foolproof in their keying. Might be
useful if you see if you could have fitted yours upside down (with the
power off )

Chris K

I just tried the test using one of the molex-sata cables and
one of the same power supplies I used. I couldn't get the
two together upside down. Moreover, I almost always have trouble
lining up make and female parts in a molex connector. The damned
pins wiggle independently, so I have to look carefully.

 

[Wild_Bill]

It's good to see you posting in SER from time to time J.. always found your
replies concise and explained wrt hands-on experience and knowledgeable
background.

Yeah, when all the acceptable design tolerances of voltages and component
values are taken into consideration (not even considering quality control
issues) for almost any peculiar/odd scenario, it generally depends upon a
lot of different issues.

Load testing used PSUs can involve many seemingly wasted hours, but used
electronic gear is typically always iffy/suspect, at best, even if it seemed
to be in perfect operating condition.. just yesterday.

And then there is always the "specifications subject to change" clause for
nearly everything manufacured in recent decades.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Jeff Urban" <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4d52c84c-b047-4e36-8e92-94fd0147ecb3@k40g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...

Yes, the ground thingie(s). I would like to think this was caused more
by something connected that shouldn't be rather than the other way
around. However now we know that what fried was a protection diode.
Could it have been across what was suppose dto be 3.3V but was 5V ?
What would they have in there, a 3.9V zener ?

If I did the math right, feeding a 3.3V device with 5V would result in
somewhere aroung 2.3 X the power dissipation is it's analog. Digital
may be a bit different, I would think lower, by that I mean a slightly
smaller increase in dissipation. This because for the most part heat
in a digital device is from the saturation voltage of the
semiconductors and the capacitive load on anything that switches.What
this all means I think is thast a 3.3V device wil actually work on 5V
for a while, how long depends on alot of things. If the components
just barely meet spec, minutes or hours, but if you happen to have a
really superior specimen, who knows how long it may work, years
even.

If a similar diode exists for the 12V suply, it is probably 15V, which
means one volt will not bother it. In fact driving a motor, it might
just be fine with an extra volt, but the next standard zener value up
from 3.3 is 3.9. One volt is too much.

So if somehow a negative 1V somehow got on the commons, this would
explain it. But then how would that thappen ? Concievably if it were
an open circuit and chassis ground made that connection, even though
it's a bit far fetched as it assumes quite a bit of resistance in that
ground. It could happen though, with the uPrecessor drawing alot of
amps during bootup. Something like this may actually require a chain
of partial failures, just to make that one volt.

I agree that this is an intersting subject because the actual cause
seems to be elusive. If we don't know why it happened this time there
is no way in hell of keeping it from happening again.

J

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

Jeff Urban wrote:

think that somewhere down the line you might wind up blowing another
one.

I think any further testing should be done with a dummy load!


--

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