help fix my Lord Kelvin thunderstorm

[robb]

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

so we cobbled together the materials to make it : 2 Campbell soup cans
bottom and top removed, 2 all-metal paint cans (clean), 14 gauge zinc coated
steel wire , round nickel ball/sphere ( brushed nickel cabinet handles),
long threaded screws, nylon tubing and plastic bucket.

It is the standard configuration as shown on web but i can not get any
action out of the device ?

Each of the two metal paint cans have 4" threaded rod protruding from the
can's handle nub and tipped with polished metal ball , the 14 gauge steel
wire has a big loop inside bottom of the paint can and a small loop tightly
fitted around a soup can. the paint cans are positioned (apart) so that
there is a small (5mm) gap between the metal balls. The wires are fashioned
so a soup can is over the opposite metal paint can and paint cans on top of
dry board. The water is set to drip through center of soup cans from one
source and it never seems to make any static elec.

Diagnosing:
+ i have tried to touch just one of the paint cans to create an imbalance ,
no electrical sensation, no action
+ tried to inject some charge by using the poly blanket trick and a spark
jumps between finger and the one can I touch.
+ tried hanging a piece of thread near the spark gap to see if there is any
attraction , None

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb

 

[amdx]

On 2/2/2014 2:45 PM, robb wrote:

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led
us to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

so we cobbled together the materials to make it : 2 Campbell soup cans
bottom and top removed, 2 all-metal paint cans (clean), 14 gauge zinc
coated steel wire , round nickel ball/sphere ( brushed nickel cabinet
handles), long threaded screws, nylon tubing and plastic bucket.

It is the standard configuration as shown on web but i can not get any
action out of the device ?

Each of the two metal paint cans have 4" threaded rod protruding from
the can's handle nub and tipped with polished metal ball , the 14 gauge
steel wire has a big loop inside bottom of the paint can and a small
loop tightly fitted around a soup can. the paint cans are positioned
(apart) so that there is a small (5mm) gap between the metal balls. The
wires are fashioned so a soup can is over the opposite metal paint can
and paint cans on top of dry board. The water is set to drip through
center of soup cans from one source and it never seems to make any
static elec.

Diagnosing:
+ i have tried to touch just one of the paint cans to create an
imbalance , no electrical sensation, no action
+ tried to inject some charge by using the poly blanket trick and a
spark jumps between finger and the one can I touch.
+ tried hanging a piece of thread near the spark gap to see if there is
any attraction , None

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb

Only things I can suggest, use styrofoam instead of the boards and
turn on the air conditioning to dry out the air. (don't know where you are)
Mikek

 

[Jon Gibson]

brane?

 

[Lord Androcles]

"robb" wrote in message
news:dZ6dnRRB5dvwM3PPnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

so we cobbled together the materials to make it : 2 Campbell soup cans
bottom and top removed, 2 all-metal paint cans (clean), 14 gauge zinc coated
steel wire , round nickel ball/sphere ( brushed nickel cabinet handles),
long threaded screws, nylon tubing and plastic bucket.

It is the standard configuration as shown on web but i can not get any
action out of the device ?

Each of the two metal paint cans have 4" threaded rod protruding from the
can's handle nub and tipped with polished metal ball , the 14 gauge steel
wire has a big loop inside bottom of the paint can and a small loop tightly
fitted around a soup can. the paint cans are positioned (apart) so that
there is a small (5mm) gap between the metal balls. The wires are fashioned
so a soup can is over the opposite metal paint can and paint cans on top of
dry board. The water is set to drip through center of soup cans from one
source and it never seems to make any static elec.

Diagnosing:
+ i have tried to touch just one of the paint cans to create an imbalance ,
no electrical sensation, no action
+ tried to inject some charge by using the poly blanket trick and a spark
jumps between finger and the one can I touch.
+ tried hanging a piece of thread near the spark gap to see if there is any
attraction , None

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb
======================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
Perhaps the video of a working model will help.
Is your drip fast enough?

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

 

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <6eAHu.19434$%h2.15072@fx24.am4>, Eyrie@Medway.Cstl says...

"robb" wrote in message
news:dZ6dnRRB5dvwM3PPnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

so we cobbled together the materials to make it : 2 Campbell soup cans
bottom and top removed, 2 all-metal paint cans (clean), 14 gauge zinc coated
steel wire , round nickel ball/sphere ( brushed nickel cabinet handles),
long threaded screws, nylon tubing and plastic bucket.

It is the standard configuration as shown on web but i can not get any
action out of the device ?

Each of the two metal paint cans have 4" threaded rod protruding from the
can's handle nub and tipped with polished metal ball , the 14 gauge steel
wire has a big loop inside bottom of the paint can and a small loop tightly
fitted around a soup can. the paint cans are positioned (apart) so that
there is a small (5mm) gap between the metal balls. The wires are fashioned
so a soup can is over the opposite metal paint can and paint cans on top of
dry board. The water is set to drip through center of soup cans from one
source and it never seems to make any static elec.

Diagnosing:
+ i have tried to touch just one of the paint cans to create an imbalance ,
no electrical sensation, no action
+ tried to inject some charge by using the poly blanket trick and a spark
jumps between finger and the one can I touch.
+ tried hanging a piece of thread near the spark gap to see if there is any
attraction , None

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb
======================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
Perhaps the video of a working model will help.
Is your drip fast enough?

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

The water passing through the cans must be in droplets not a
solid stream.

The passive cans should be suspended via the cross conductors, this
means you may need to use brass tubes so you can solder to the cans.

The catch buckets need to be insulated between each other. This can
be done by putting a sheet of lexan or something non conductive and
thick under the buckets or, place them inside larger plastic pales for
example.

Basically, the passive cans and catch cans need to be electrically
floating and the water stream in the passive cans should be in a broken
stream.

Jamie

 

[FC]

On Sun, 02 Feb 2014 15:45:22 -0500, robb wrote:

The water is set to drip through center of soup cans from one
source and it never seems to make any static elec.

The water stream has to fragment into droplets *inside* the cans.

IOW, the water must enter the cans as a continuous stream and
leave the cans as separated droplets.

Adjust the water flow rate until this condition is achieved.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-02-03, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr. <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote:

In article <6eAHu.19434$%h2.15072@fx24.am4>, Eyrie@Medway.Cstl says...

"robb" wrote in message
news:dZ6dnRRB5dvwM3PPnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

so we cobbled together the materials to make it : 2 Campbell soup cans
bottom and top removed, 2 all-metal paint cans (clean), 14 gauge zinc coated
steel wire , round nickel ball/sphere ( brushed nickel cabinet handles),
long threaded screws, nylon tubing and plastic bucket.

It is the standard configuration as shown on web but i can not get any
action out of the device ?

Each of the two metal paint cans have 4" threaded rod protruding from the
can's handle nub and tipped with polished metal ball , the 14 gauge steel
wire has a big loop inside bottom of the paint can and a small loop tightly
fitted around a soup can. the paint cans are positioned (apart) so that
there is a small (5mm) gap between the metal balls. The wires are fashioned
so a soup can is over the opposite metal paint can and paint cans on top of
dry board. The water is set to drip through center of soup cans from one
source and it never seems to make any static elec.

Diagnosing:
+ i have tried to touch just one of the paint cans to create an imbalance ,
no electrical sensation, no action
+ tried to inject some charge by using the poly blanket trick and a spark
jumps between finger and the one can I touch.
+ tried hanging a piece of thread near the spark gap to see if there is any
attraction , None

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb
======================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
Perhaps the video of a working model will help.
Is your drip fast enough?

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

The water passing through the cans must be in droplets not a
solid stream.

also, it should break into droplets inside the tubes (soup cans)

The passive cans should be suspended via the cross conductors, this
means you may need to use brass tubes so you can solder to the cans.

zinc plated steel solders easily (eg: paperclips),
galv is a litle harder. anyhow solder isn't needed, wrap the wire
round them then tighten it a bit.,

but yeah, rigid wires will work better, 3mm tie wire is probably about
right. dunno what that gauge is in American.

The catch buckets need to be insulated between each other. This can
be done by putting a sheet of lexan or something non conductive and
thick under the buckets or, place them inside larger plastic pales for
example.

stand them on clean glass supports. (jam jars, glasses, or bottles)

Basically, the passive cans and catch cans need to be electrically
floating and the water stream in the passive cans should be in a broken
stream.

no, it must break inside the tubes.

--


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[Lord Androcles]

"Maynard A. Philbrook Jr." wrote in message
news:MPG.2d58af03371ce86989791@news.eternal-september.org...

In article <6eAHu.19434$%h2.15072@fx24.am4>, Eyrie@Medway.Cstl says...

"robb" wrote in message
news:dZ6dnRRB5dvwM3PPnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led
us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

so we cobbled together the materials to make it : 2 Campbell soup cans
bottom and top removed, 2 all-metal paint cans (clean), 14 gauge zinc
coated
steel wire , round nickel ball/sphere ( brushed nickel cabinet handles),
long threaded screws, nylon tubing and plastic bucket.

It is the standard configuration as shown on web but i can not get any
action out of the device ?

Each of the two metal paint cans have 4" threaded rod protruding from the
can's handle nub and tipped with polished metal ball , the 14 gauge steel
wire has a big loop inside bottom of the paint can and a small loop
tightly
fitted around a soup can. the paint cans are positioned (apart) so that
there is a small (5mm) gap between the metal balls. The wires are
fashioned
so a soup can is over the opposite metal paint can and paint cans on top
of
dry board. The water is set to drip through center of soup cans from one
source and it never seems to make any static elec.

Diagnosing:
+ i have tried to touch just one of the paint cans to create an imbalance
,
no electrical sensation, no action
+ tried to inject some charge by using the poly blanket trick and a spark
jumps between finger and the one can I touch.
+ tried hanging a piece of thread near the spark gap to see if there is
any
attraction , None

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb
======================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
Perhaps the video of a working model will help.
Is your drip fast enough?

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

The water passing through the cans must be in droplets not a
solid stream.

The passive cans should be suspended via the cross conductors, this
means you may need to use brass tubes so you can solder to the cans.

The catch buckets need to be insulated between each other. This can
be done by putting a sheet of lexan or something non conductive and
thick under the buckets or, place them inside larger plastic pales for
example.

Basically, the passive cans and catch cans need to be electrically
floating and the water stream in the passive cans should be in a broken
stream.

Jamie
======================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
Perhaps the video of a working model will help.
Is your drip fast enough?

Oh wait, I said that already.
Let's try this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
WATCH THE FUCKING VIDEO!

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

 

[robb]

"Lord Androcles" wrote in message news:6eAHu.19434$%h2.15072@fx24.am4...

"robb" wrote in message
news:dZ6dnRRB5dvwM3PPnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

... led us to build a lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine that is not
working

[ trim problems }

any hints or things to consider diagnosing would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
robb
======================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
Perhaps the video of a working model will help.
Is your drip fast enough?

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

Thanks to all helpful replies,

Yes, i did view the video and many others similar to that one.

It all looks dead simple and probably is. BUT, mine was/is not working so
well.
I can get an occasional spark but not regular.

My setup is not far off that video, my support wire for the drop cylinders
is not welded to outside of the water catch can. Instead, the wire is
passed through a hole i punched in the lip of the can, the wire forms big
loop that sits inside the bottom of can. The other end of the wire sticking
up out of the catch can is looped around my soup can drop cylinders.

I do not have good control of the drip rate (yet) so it takes alot of effort
to get the drip running as suggested.

Things i tried that helped some ?

1. The soup cans had a thin clear coat on the outside i was un-aware that
gave infinite ohm reading on surface. so I sanded it off.

2. The inside of soup can has a gold valFlex coating that i could not
remove chemically with (acetone, mineral spirits / naptha, brake cleaner(
tolulene-hexane-etc), ammonia, isopropyl-91% ) and sanding was too much
work.

3. So just Covered cans with aluminum foil.

4. I replaced orb electrodes with pointy electrodes for the spark gap.

5. I wrapped the (wire to can) joints with aluminum foil to ensure contact
with outer catch cans

6. I installed a static meter (strip of paper and strip of sewing thread) to
outside of catch cans to indicate a charge is building

7. I held the water drop tubes in each hand and adjusted up and down till i
saw a charge building via the paper strip

8. Put water catch cans on top of a plastic bucket

Final results were...

Many times I had to inject a charge on one of the cans to get it working
(i.e. build up charge on me and touch one can until the paper static
indicator rose some). It would never just start charging on its own. Then if
i got the water stream at just right place it would slowly charge (slow
raising static paper strip). The paper strip would rise to a certain point
then start fluttering and bouncing a small bit and i would occasionally
get a spark on the spark gap. When i get a spark the static indicator paper
would drop way down and start slowly rising again. Since the static indictor
paper is bouncing up and down just before the spark level I am guessing i
have HV leakage somewhere ?

but where ? what would be cause of the leaks ? sharp edges ? Moisture in air
?

anyway thanks, i appreciate everyone's time for all the helpful replies.
robb

 

[szczepan bialek]

"robb" <some@where.on.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:QYudnSh6SPE-O27PnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it

works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine

Final results were...

Many times I had to inject a charge on one of the cans to get it working

The Kelvin's generator is not for kids.
In our schools was presented the simple generator consists of three parts.
1. Water droplets "producer",
2. A metal plate with the surface covered with fat,
3. A metal container

The droplets are rolling on the surface to get the electrons. The plate
should have contact with the Earth.
The sparks are jumping betweein the container and the ground.

Kelvin's generator is very sophisticated.

The simple one is the pure physics.
The Earth has voltage about 200V.
The capacitance of smal drop and the big drop (container) is proportional to
their surface (r^2).
The mass is proportional to r^3.
The voltage is V = Q/C

In our generator Q is constant but the capacitance of the big drop
(container) is smaller than the sum of the capacitance of droplets.
S*

 

[FC]

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 10:13:22 -0500, robb wrote:

I do not have good control of the drip rate (yet) so it takes alot of effort
to get the drip running as suggested.

This is the key to the whole device. Everything else is not that critical.

A continuous stream *must* fragment into droplets *inside* the cans. (Do you
understand why?)

Adjust the flow until this condition occurs. You may even need to construct
some nozzles to allow better control of this.

 

[robb]

"FC" wrote in message newsan.2014.02.07.01.57.51@flatland.net...

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 10:13:22 -0500, robb wrote:


I do not have good control of the drip rate (yet) so it takes alot of
effort
to get the drip running as suggested.


This is the key to the whole device. Everything else is not that
critical.

A continuous stream *must* fragment into droplets *inside* the cans. (Do
you
understand why?)

Adjust the flow until this condition occurs. You may even need to
construct
some nozzles to allow better control of this.

Thanks for the help,

well i think i understand now in my amateur mind ... that the charge
imbalance on the upper cans causes a repulsion or attraction to electrons
in the water stream as it approaches the upper cans which is the reason for
a surplus or deficit of electrons in the individual droplets as the stream
fragments. So, there must be an optimal position relative to the
attractive/repulsive forces one would want the water stream to fragment and
realize the max/min charge of the attracted/repulsed electrons.

I agree i will then need to get a nozzle of some sort to control the stream
fragmentation height, currently it is dripping out of a 3-4 mm ID nylon tube
and the stream to fragmentation distance fluctuates *alot* as it runs.

thanks again for the time and help
robb

 

[FC]

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 13:21:09 -0500, robb wrote:

currently it is dripping out of a 3-4 mm ID nylon tube
and the stream to fragmentation distance fluctuates *alot* as it runs.

If you can't control the fragmentation point, then you might want
to try a variation with grounded nozzles:

http://www.newphysics.se/archives/fnysik/3_1/kelvin/

 

[robb]

"szczepan bialek" wrote in message news:ld0ge1$mmc$1@node1.news.atman.pl...

"robb" <some@where.on.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:QYudnSh6SPE-O27PnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

trying to learn the kids (via discovery) about electricity and how to
generate etc..

We were working through static electricity, rubbing various items like a
poly fur blanket and produce visible sparks.
This led them naturally to, "hey that looks like lightening", to how it
works and can we make static elec with water droplets and air which led
us
to lord Kelvin thunderstorm machine


Final results were...

Many times I had to inject a charge on one of the cans to get it working

The Kelvin's generator is not for kids.
In our schools was presented the simple generator consists of three parts.
1. Water droplets "producer",
2. A metal plate with the surface covered with fat,
3. A metal container

The droplets are rolling on the surface to get the electrons. The plate
should have contact with the Earth.
The sparks are jumping betweein the container and the ground.

Kelvin's generator is very sophisticated.

The simple one is the pure physics.
The Earth has voltage about 200V.
The capacitance of smal drop and the big drop (container) is proportional
to their surface (r^2).
The mass is proportional to r^3.
The voltage is V = Q/C

In our generator Q is constant but the capacitance of the big drop
(container) is smaller than the sum of the capacitance of droplets.
S*

Thanks for idea,

Have any links to resources for fatted flat plate static generation ?
I see oodles of "water drop static" googles for lord kelvin device
variants but none as you describe

I like your device idea and i want to build one but I am not convinced that
simplifying the mechanics of the device while adding the concept of ground
and earth connections decreases the sophistication of that device.

kids/people seem to digest simple concrete concepts (in small incremental
steps). The lord kelvin thunderstorm, in all its technical sophistication,
has a certain concrete and tangible containment that lends itself to simple
incremental revelations with the observer's cognition.

thanks again,
robb

 

[FC]

On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 05:52:04 -0500, robb wrote:

kids/people seem to digest simple concrete concepts (in small incremental
steps). The lord kelvin thunderstorm, in all its technical sophistication,
has a certain concrete and tangible containment that lends itself to simple
incremental revelations with the observer's cognition.

The Kelvin generator depends on a myriad of subtle concepts that can
confound even a sophisticated observer. The production of charge
is the result of both complex induction and gravitational energy,
while the initiation process depends on uncertain and uncontrollable
environmental factors (cosmic rays, atmospheric ions, etc,)

Although it may have an immediate dazzling effect on most people,
I would claim that it has little overall pedagogical value.

If you want to dazzle while presenting simple, incremental, and controllable
ideas, you may want to consider building an electrometer to visually demonstrate
the ubiquitous presence of electrical charge and electrical fields. Here
are some links:

http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html

http://www.vk2zay.net/article/9

http://amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html (scroll down to middle)

 

[robb]

"FC" wrote in message newsan.2014.02.08.18.57.57@flatland.net...

On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 05:52:04 -0500, robb wrote:


kids/people seem to digest simple concrete concepts (in small
incremental
steps). The lord kelvin thunderstorm, in all its technical
sophistication,
has a certain concrete and tangible containment that lends itself to
simple
incremental revelations with the observer's cognition.


The Kelvin generator depends on a myriad of subtle concepts that can
confound even a sophisticated observer. The production of charge
is the result of both complex induction and gravitational energy,
while the initiation process depends on uncertain and uncontrollable
environmental factors (cosmic rays, atmospheric ions, etc,)

you removed the part about "i am not convinced" which is why i wanted to
build your example device so that i might convince myself. It was an honest
and sincere request to experiment with the simpler water drop static
generation device.

I could not find an example of the device you mentioned in my web searches,
did you forget to add the link ?

Although it may have an immediate dazzling effect on most people,
I would claim that it has little overall pedagogical value.

all those subtle confounding concepts surely have some important value
for teaching you obviously learned them

If you want to dazzle while presenting simple, incremental, and
controllable
ideas, you may want to consider building an electrometer to visually
demonstrate
the ubiquitous presence of electrical charge and electrical fields. Here
are some links:

http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html
http://www.vk2zay.net/article/9
http://amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html (scroll down to middle)

I do not see how concrete and tangible translate to dazzling. You think
dazzling has no place in pedagogy either ?

I suppose you are making a joke here ? as jfet and integrated circuit
operation hardly falls in the realm of obvious

else you would have mentioned electroscope

besides we made a crude electroscope using a piece of tissue paper and
sewing thread to visually demonstrate presence of electrical charge it
certainly satisfied your dazzling metric at least the kids were dazzled.

If you have a link to the device you mentioned or the device name or the
originator's name, i am truly interested to look it up.

Thanks, I do appreciate your helpful replies,
robb

 

[szczepan bialek]

"FC" <home@flatland.net> napisał w wiadomości
newsan.2014.02.08.18.57.57@flatland.net...

On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 05:52:04 -0500, robb wrote:

If you want to dazzle while presenting simple, incremental, and
controllable
ideas, you may want to consider building an electrometer to visually
demonstrate
the ubiquitous presence of electrical charge and electrical fields. Here
are some links:

http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html

"Regular foil-leaf electroscopes deal with electrostatic potentials in the
range of many hundreds or thousands of volts. The above device can detect
one volt. Its sensitivity is ridiculously high".
Lord Kelvin had the electrometer with the 160 marks on ONE volt.
S*
>

 

[szczepan bialek]

"robb" <some@where.on.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:bqOdnZrS5dz0kWvPnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"szczepan bialek" wrote in message
news:ld0ge1$mmc$1@node1.news.atman.pl...

Many times I had to inject a charge on one of the cans to get it
working

The Kelvin's generator is not for kids.
In our schools was presented the simple generator consists of three
parts.
1. Water droplets "producer",
2. A metal plate with the surface covered with fat,
3. A metal container

The droplets are rolling on the surface to get the electrons. The plate
should have contact with the Earth.
The sparks are jumping betweein the container and the ground.

Kelvin's generator is very sophisticated.

The simple one is the pure physics.
The Earth has voltage about 200V.
The capacitance of smal drop and the big drop (container) is proportional
to their surface (r^2).
The mass is proportional to r^3.
The voltage is V = Q/C

In our generator Q is constant but the capacitance of the big drop
(container) is smaller than the sum of the capacitance of droplets.
S*


Thanks for idea,

Have any links to resources for fatted flat plate static generation ?

The fat is necesary to keep the droplets as the sphere.

I see oodles of "water drop static" googles for lord kelvin device
variants but none as you describe

Ten years ago it was described as the "electrostatic experinent". Now I
could not find it.

I like your device idea and i want to build one but I am not convinced
that simplifying the mechanics of the device while adding the concept of
ground and earth connections decreases the sophistication of that device.

kids/people seem to digest simple concrete concepts (in small incremental
steps). The lord kelvin thunderstorm, in all its technical sophistication,
has a certain concrete and tangible containment that lends itself to
simple incremental revelations with the observer's cognition.

Kelvin wrote about "Multiplication of charge". To be precise there is the
multiplication of voltage.

If the droplets are joining together the voltage is rising. It take place in
the clouds.

So, the simply device is the cloud. The sparks jump to the Earth.

The only problem is how to charge the droplets.
In the clouds they are charged. (Because they levitate in the Earth electric
field).

You must do it by the "induction" or by contact.
Unfortunatly I do not know who invented the fatted plate.
But the device was produced for schools.
Now the Van der Graff is offered.
S*
>

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-02-09, szczepan bialek <sz.bialek@wp.pl> wrote:

"robb" <some@where.on.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:bqOdnZrS5dz0kWvPnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

"szczepan bialek" wrote in message
news:ld0ge1$mmc$1@node1.news.atman.pl...

Many times I had to inject a charge on one of the cans to get it
working

The Kelvin's generator is not for kids.
In our schools was presented the simple generator consists of three
parts.
1. Water droplets "producer",
2. A metal plate with the surface covered with fat,
3. A metal container

The droplets are rolling on the surface to get the electrons. The plate
should have contact with the Earth.
The sparks are jumping betweein the container and the ground.

Kelvin's generator is very sophisticated.

The simple one is the pure physics.
The Earth has voltage about 200V.
The capacitance of smal drop and the big drop (container) is proportional
to their surface (r^2).
The mass is proportional to r^3.
The voltage is V = Q/C

In our generator Q is constant but the capacitance of the big drop
(container) is smaller than the sum of the capacitance of droplets.
S*


Thanks for idea,

Have any links to resources for fatted flat plate static generation ?

The fat is necesary to keep the droplets as the sphere.

I see oodles of "water drop static" googles for lord kelvin device
variants but none as you describe

Ten years ago it was described as the "electrostatic experinent". Now I
could not find it.

It sounds like the wet analogue of a Van de Graaf generator, while
Lord Kelvin's is the wet analogue of Wimshurst's machine,

--
Neither the pheasant plucker, nor the pheasant plucker's son.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[szczepan bialek]

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> napisał w wiadomości
news:ld9q00$nte$1@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx...

On 2014-02-09, szczepan bialek <sz.bialek@wp.pl> wrote:

"robb" <some@where.on.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:bqOdnZrS5dz0kWvPnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

In our schools was presented the simple generator consists of three
parts.
1. Water droplets "producer",
2. A metal plate with the surface covered with fat,
3. A metal container

The droplets are rolling on the surface to get the electrons. The plate
should have contact with the Earth.
The sparks are jumping betweein the container and the ground.

The simple one is the pure physics.
The Earth has voltage about 200V.
The capacitance of smal drop and the big drop (container) is
proportional
to their surface (r^2).
The mass is proportional to r^3.
The voltage is V = Q/C

In our generator Q is constant but the capacitance of the big drop
(container) is smaller than the sum of the capacitance of droplets.
S*

The fat is necesary to keep the droplets as the sphere.

Ten years ago it was described as the "electrostatic experinent". Now I
could not find it.

It sounds like the wet analogue of a Van de Graaf generator, while
Lord Kelvin's is the wet analogue of Wimshurst's machine,

I wrote in Google: How to charge water droplets - and there are plenty of
links. In the first is wrote:

"Images such as this, showing droplets being shed from a superhydrophobic
surface (light band at center), revealed the charging of the droplets."

Robb wrote: "If you have a link to the device you mentioned or the device
name or the
originator's name, i am truly interested to look it up".

May be that the device was originated by Soviet Union, because almost
everything produced in Poland was Soviet's licence.

Have you heard in your country about the drop generator with the hydrofobic
surface?
S*